lonesomeloser

[quote=The Project;4820117]MY only issue would be is the smaller thickness of the tubing good enough for everyday/weekend driving.

I hope by now we would have had heard if these weren't up to the task.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Decided to buy a set.

I received the tracking number and will post up when they arrive and get installed.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Ordered a set of LCA's from Founders Performance. Price was hard to pass up. Powder coating was perfect.

Ordered these on Feb 16 and arrived Feb 22 so under a week to arrive to Canada. NOT BAD!!

I measured these at a true 1.75" thick. Looks like ES poly bushings as advertised.

http://www.foundersperformance.com/p...trol-Arms.html

A few pics....not just need to put them on the car (along with everything else)







Welds seems pretty good.

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

I have had them on my car for over 8 months and am very happy with them! They are very strong and are actually bigger than alot of the other name brand ones on the market!!!

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

a larger diameter does not necessarily make it better in this case

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

AMEN! Someone gets it!

tubing thickness is wat really matters in parts like these. As ive stated before. however for the price these are good products for what they are... i just wouldnt stick them in my car.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

just to be clear, im not saying that there is something wrong with these parts, im just saying in response to a previous comment, that a larger diameter piece of tubing does not make a part better simply because of size.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

yes i know, just agreeing with you. For the price these are decent parts if you dont plan on beating on your car too much/having decent power... arent the stock components 1/8" thick stamped steel?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

not quite 1/8, but close

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

I agree, thicker is stronger. But I have not heard of anyone bending or breaking these yet. Since niether of you have a pair of these how can you dis on them? I buy BMR,UMI, and now these and I think there quality is right there for the price.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

so thicker than the .095" stuff founders sells. Understood that round tubing is stronger than open C channel stamped steel like the stock stuff, i would still be more comfortable with .120"... hell i would take RLCAs if they were made from .134" roll bar tubing... its just not something that i would want to fail. ESP something as long as the panhard bar.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

This goes for the double poly ended LCAs and panhard bar as they are not DOM steel.
well look at what your getting... "high strength tubing" means what? If they were using DOM steel then they would state it correct? why use DOM steel? bc it doesnt have a welded seam... which makes a WEAK point. Why use a .095" wall tubing vs a .120" wall tubing... its not to save weight since the weight would be wat... a pound? Why bc thinner walled steel is cheaper! if it were .095" DOM tubing i wouldn't be as worried but theres a reason EVERY person who makes the rear suspension components for the 3rd gen or HELL even any suspension piece uses a thicker DOM tubing. The fact that there using 1.75" tubing means they are in a way wasting material as the larger DIA tubing isnt increasing the strength of the part and is Adding more weight than just using a 1.25" tubing thats thicker. Also the welding on these seems fine... however there are better welding techniques for a stronger weld like a good TIG weld. MIG welding is fine but its easy and fast which is why ppl use it.

Im all about saving money, hell i even made my own LCAs and panhard bar fron 1.75" tubing but it was .134" thick! and i used ES poly bushings and it cost me 25$ to make and weld. and it cost even less for the panhard bar. I also made my custom tq arm, but i used 1.25"x .120" DOM tubing, 3/4" rod ends with adjusters... total cost was maybe 80$. So believe me this guy is still making a decent profit off these products, esp when u consider the cost of materials that hes saving by not going with DOM tubing alone. 20ft of 1.25"x.095 HREW tubing (welded seam) was around 60$ at the local metal supplier... i asked how much for the 1.25"x.120" DOM tubing and he quoted me 175$!

IM NOT saying that founders performance is bad, the quality is decent and they are fine for a STOCK to very mild performance car, well see how ppls stuff works in the long run and after some miles and large potholes etc, they will be the real test. Founders has its place but its upsetting to see what could be a "better" product doesnt meet the standards of the entire aftermarket. Parts that have been abused and tested on test vehicles. Its not DISSING its stating the obvious.

FoundersPerf

I think we need to clear a few things up that you have missed about our parts. Our adjustable LCA's and PHR's are in fact made from DOM steel which it does say under the description. The difference is ours are made using 1026 DOM not the standard 1020 DOM which is commonly found. What this means is the material actually cost us MORE since it is higher strength when compared to the common 1020 DOM. The chemical difference is mainly more carbon in the 1026. The certificates for the 1026 tubing is about the same in terms of yield strength as the last batch of 4130N material we received for another customer of ours. As a matter of fact the certificates a lot of the time show the 1026 DOM to be stronger than 4130n chrome-moly without the ill side affects commonly found when using chrome-moly. As for the welding, we don't MIG (short arc) our parts. All of our parts are pulse spray welded which gives the same benefits as tig but the speed of mig. It is a process that takes special equipment and is very hard to do when you are welding out of position and takes very skilled workers to perform.

I also need to correct you in the wall thickness. The larger the diameter the stronger it is. Going from .095” to .120” material will have very little impact on the strength but going from say 1.5” to 1.75” has a major impact on the overall strength. This goes for both torsion and bending which is why a tubular anti-roll bar with a larger OD but a thinner wall is stronger/stiffer than the anti-roll bar with a smaller OD but a heavier wall.

krzyz

well i know what ill be ordering when my tax check shows up. be nice if they can make sfc as well.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

He's right, the 1.75 x .095 tubing is stronger in resisting deflection than the 1.50 x .120 tubing (~10% difference). I ran an FEA analysis, because I was curious. Also, since it was mentioned earlier, 1.25 x .120 tubing is about half as strong as 1.75 x .095 tubing.

I will probably be getting a set of these myself in the near future.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I stated that my post (first sentence was only aimed at the double poly ended panhard/LCAs) they are the only ones which do NOT have the description of DOM tubing in there product discriptions. It only states high strength tubing, that was bc the guy in early posts ordered the poly bushing LCAs... which I dont know why when poly end LCAs are actually worse than the stockers due to "snap back/binding" when they get loaded and causes the rear end to slide out on you... but i digress.

Im not trying to knock your product as ive stated they are a great product for the price. I really dont want to take away from this thread so Ill stop filling it with my posts. I hope you all enjoy your components and that you post how they are doing a yr or 2 or 3 down the road.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

how did you load the steel for testing?

rear LCAs only see pushing/pulling forces and do not see side to side forces mostly.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

That was for bending forces only. I reran the tests for compression/expansion loading, and in this case the 1.5 x .120 tubing was 5% stronger than the 1.75 x .095 tubing. 1.25 x .120 was 15-20% weaker than the previous ones.

I'm not sure what are typical load values, but the 1.75 tubing shouldn't begin to yield until the force is well over 20,000lbs.

frankinmaro

iTrader: (4)

I have had a chance to compare founders products to others on the market, some on my own vehicle and some on friends third gens and I think they are equal in quality I have JM lcas Spohn t-arm and xmember founders adj pan bar(and have been talking to them about developing a third gen STB)my friends have both BMR and UMI components mixed in their suspensions too and they also agree that the quality is equal(one works in machine shop and the other is a welder)so unless someone is running 500+ hp to the ground I believe other parts in the drive train will grenade before a panhard or LCA's. these products are great esp. considering the price thats just my opinion(and I have fabbed parts and welded on many cars, learned about metallurgy and welding in college as well as having a few ASE certs.) so with my 315 horses on the ground pushing me around I think they'll be just fine.but thats just my .42 cents

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the point i was trying to make, that got sidetracked a bit, is that larger tubing, while stronger, does not make the part better because the loading of the lca will never reach the yield strength of the tubing under anything other than possibly a hard rear impact. Panhard, im not sure, it is pretty long.

Not sure of the weight difference between 1.75 .095 and 1.25 .120, but i would think the 1.25 is a little lighter (for those weight ****'s out there).

Thats all i was trying to say. A piece of 2" tubing would be even stronger, but again, it may be a bit overkill.

So Founders, any plans for a k-member?

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Shouldn't there be a test of 1.75" x .095", since that was the subject of discussion? Great to see someone doing this kind of analysis on these though, nice to be able to put some numbers in the discussion.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, I mistyped and corrected my previous post. It was 1.75 x .095 that was tested. Also to answer 86TA's question, 1.25 x .120 vs. 1.75 x .095 tubing is less than a pound difference for both lca's (1.25 being lighter).

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

thats interesting... you did the tests for DOM tubing as well? Also would the welded tube ends add rigidy to the tubing for your tests? Are the rear LCAs considered unsprung weight? You wont ever reach the yeild strength of the 1.25x.120" tubing either so i guess knocking a few lbs off the rear of the car is a plus.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I would be interested in a STB for a 3rd gen... either TPI or carb. As i will prob have to make one for my engine sway (BBF are really frigin tall) Also that person with 500+hp to the ground would be me! And not to mention an A$$ load of big block tq.

FoundersPerf

We need to make sure we are comparing the same style of control arms. The 1.75" x .095" arms we produce are a poly/poly arm that is non adjustable and the 1.25" x .120" arm you are comparing them to are the competitors rod/rod adjustable version. If you want to compare apples to apples you would need to compare our 1.75" x .095" Poly/Poly non adjustable arms to the competitors 1.50" x .120" Poly/Poly non adjustable arms. The result in weight is ours are actually lighter yet stronger in torsion and bending simply due to the size of the tubing. 1.75" x .095 tubing weighs 1.679 pounds per foot and the 1.50" x .120" tubing weighs 1.769 pounds per foot. As you can see the weight difference between the two is negligible but the bottom line is either one is way over kill and the bushings will most likely fail before either arm.

Let's look at the other arms which are the Rod/Rod adjustable arms that keep getting mentioned. Our competitors seem to use 1.25" x .120" 1020 dom steel which has on minimum yield strength of around a 60KSI. We use a stronger 1026 dom steel tubing which has a minimum yield strength of around 70ksi. This extra strength is what allows us to use a thinner wall 1.25" x .095" tubing and not have problems with our control arms. Keep in mind these are minimums actual tube strength is usually higher depending on actual mill runs on the material. Again bottom line is control arms with rod ends on both sides only see tension and compression loading which again makes either one of these way over kill and most likely will see the rod ends fail before the tubing does. The biggest thing will be how they are put together. As mentioned in our description we not only pulse spray the parts but we also rosette weld our bungs in place as an extra safety margin to weld failure. I believe we are the only company that goes through the little extra time on that process.

The other factor not being considered is the loading on these parts. These parts don't see much force as the main purpose is to locate the axle fore and aft and the torque arm is designed to take most of the acceleration and braking forces. What was posted earlier is correct in saying it would need to be a curb shot or and impact in the rear or side impact to most likely hurt any these arms which is why the aluminum ones from J&M hold up just fine.

dyed

Why is it more expensive to order through the Founders website than Ebay?

zee28

they must be classic cinder blocks,because the new ones break if you stand on them,lol.I have been looking at these bars for 2 weeks,now I must order.Bet this guys business picked up this week.

GoFaster2

Didnt know Detroit made a locker for the 7.5? I would have to see pictures of your car with the wheels in the air before I would believe it.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

I would like to see the 10bolt last 8 passes dead hooking pulling the wheels that high.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Hey Founders, when can we expect some front A-arms?

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

+1 - I think it'd be nice if we had another option that was a little easier on the wallet. Not saying that most currently available are over priced, but every little bit helps, especially when you factor in that some of us have to pay to have 'em welded on!

FoundersPerf

We are working on a panhard rod support to allow for larger exhaust and a new torque arm currently. We won't be designing front lower arms for a while.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Atleast theyre on the list of to dos...

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

Awesome ill be one of the first to buy a torque arm

3rdgenparts

iTrader: (8)

Ordered a panhard bar on Friday night 18th and it shipped Monday gonna get it on Thursday NOT bad not bad !!!!!


Dave

tealrs

just got my set of lca and panhard rod with poly/rod end very nice looking pieces would definitely recommend them. looking forward to a road trip! founders just want to put my vote in for the torque arm and would like to see sub-frame connectors, k-member too if you ever get time just make it all! thanks.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

ordered mine on 3-27-11 and wont see them until next week guess ups lost them or something

jag327

Up date on founders items, Man I been banging the rear 5500 rpm take off's.
No problems what so ever. I had to raze the rear up 2" more front end coming off the ground. Happy with the items I bought from founds and lower pricing.

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

just got my on car adjustable bits - very reasonable time and costs considering i'm in the UK.

Some assembly required -lol - but was all straightforward. Everything is nicely weigted and feels solid - the bearing joints are smooth and fluid.

I liek the reverse thread on each end of the LCA/ Panhards - makes on car adjustability quite simple - I'm sure competitors do something similar but it's good to see we are not getting less at this price.

The LCA brackets also look like well made items - the corner welds are a nice touch.

Still to fit everything (most prob. next few weeks) but just wanted to report that the Founder's stuff looks and feels good for the price>>

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I installed the Founders poly/poly lca's over the weekend and they went in very easy. They look great too and I'm happy with my purchase.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

got mine today.. went with the panhard and LCAs and they are great! nice build very happy with the quality.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

Just installed some Founders adj. caster/camber plates, not bad for $194 shipped, top notch quality and work with Bilstein struts... not really on subject since this is about controls arms but i must say their adj. camber plates are nice!

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I'm glad I found this thread because I was looking at Founders stuff on ebay today. I'm wanting to upgrade my new 91 Camaro's suspension and this seems to be the ticket for me. I'm not wanting to go crazy due to it being my daily and the 88 is going to weekend warrior status. I'm gonna have to give these guys a try.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

new car eh Rob? sweet. I will use founders when I need new stuff. Right now im good on my setup

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

You convinced me, I am buying right now, thanks!

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

just got my goodies in today. thanks for a good product at a very good price! how 'bout a strut tower brace.....?

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Got mine while I was away on vacation, very nice and affordable. I second the tower brace and add SFC's?!

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

off topic about part, on topic about vendor, Founders camber plates in red:

Coolball

iTrader: (5)

Founders gets my vote. Ordered a set of adjustable LCA's with some LCA relocation brackets and an adjustable panhard bar. Very nice quality parts and the finish and hardware are excellent. Quick shipping too.

I'd like to see that panhard rod support mentioned back in March come out soon.

Can anybody tell me how the LCA relocation brackets install?

breethwithme

just got mine the other day and i like them very good quality. i was going to get the panhard rod from them but i won a jegster adjustable one on ebay for 50 bucks brand new. also i won a brand new MSD 6ALN ignition box brand new for 30 bucks lots of good deals lately lol. but i will be buying the adj. strut towers from them i think there stuff is quality that is as good as the other manufacturers