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This thread has been around a while. But, Put a red top in the trunk of my old Camaro back in 07, still going strong. Car sits for a month or so regularly, don't do anything special to keep it up, sure no complaints here.
Any new inputs on this?
My car sits for almost 6 weeks at the time, neg disconnected, no possibility of putting it on trickle as I live in a condo, and don't want to burn the place down while I'm gone. Started up about every second day while I'm here, sometimes for a quick ride to the store and back, sometimes for a 60+ mile cruise.
Yellow top, red top, or something completely different.
I am able to charge when I'm home. CTEK MUS 4.3
The factory battery for my 3rd Gen was rated at 560 CCA...why would I want or need 900 CCA?
I've had an Interstate last 10 years, a Duralast last 9 years and a generic Power Volt last 11.5 years in my 3rd Gens, 4th gen & vette. These were all lead acid batteries with between 560 to 700 CCA.
Several friends had Optima's red or yellow, none of which lasted over 9 years. The yellow top's failed the quickest. One of my friends that had a car stereo shop and refused to carry the yellow top's in stock because he said they required too much attention to be 'teenager proof'. He was a fan of the red tops and kept them in stock.
Why would I want to pay an extra $100 bucks for a heavier Optima?
The factory battery for my 3rd Gen was rated at 560 CCA...why would I want or need 900 CCA?
I've had an Interstate last 10 years, a Duralast last 9 years and a generic Power Volt last 11.5 years in my 3rd Gens, 4th gen & vette. These were all lead acid batteries with between 560 to 700 CCA.
Several friends had Optima's red or yellow, none of which lasted over 9 years. The yellow top's failed the quickest. One of my friends that had a car stereo shop and refused to carry the yellow top's in stock because he said they required too much attention to be 'teenager proof'. He was a fan of the red tops and kept them in stock.
Why would I want to pay an extra $100 bucks for a heavier Optima?
Ive never had issues with interstate either. Just replaces a group 58 that was bought in 2009. 200+ for optima +200+for a charger to get the extended warrenty. These should come with a 5 year warrenty as is.
The factory battery for my 3rd Gen was rated at 560 CCA...why would I want or need 900 CCA?
I've had an Interstate last 10 years, a Duralast last 9 years and a generic Power Volt last 11.5 years in my 3rd Gens, 4th gen & vette. These were all lead acid batteries with between 560 to 700 CCA.
Several friends had Optima's red or yellow, none of which lasted over 9 years. The yellow top's failed the quickest. One of my friends that had a car stereo shop and refused to carry the yellow top's in stock because he said they required too much attention to be 'teenager proof'. He was a fan of the red tops and kept them in stock.
Why would I want to pay an extra $100 bucks for a heavier Optima?
A friend of mine used to run Optima batteries in his Boston Whaler. He'd end up buying new ones every season because they'd end up not taking a charge after sitting even for a few months. I'm thinking marine use must be pretty abusive on batteries?
::Off Topic:: I have a 16 year old Silver Series Die Hard in my Camaro. I don't drive the car very often so it's hooked up to a Battery Minder. Once I park it, I go through the storage routine because I don't know when the next time I'll drive it will be. Sometimes I go for a year or two without moving the car.
Old thread- but I thought I'd share my experience. I used to own an off-road/expedition vehicle company and also have managed two large dealership service and parts divisions.
The Optima batteries made in the last few years are not the same as the ones we used to get "back in the day" which would last 7-10 years easily. The new ones fail rapidly and the warranty support is dismal. They used to sell Optimas for a good deal at Sam's Warehouse thing- except then Optima wouldn't honor warranties... at least on the 4 blue tops I bought that all failed within 3 years- and not from abuse.
I eventually lost a six figure vehicle when a cell in a battery internally shorted and caught the vehicle on fire. My insurance company hired an investigator to determine how it started and that is what they found. Makes sense, as the battery had issues keeping a charge more than a couple days. I cannot say who made the battery because of the terms of a settlement.
The Odyssey batteries have been far better, and they are also sold under the Sears name- their "platinum" AGM style batteries are Odysseys re-branded and cheaper. Fantastic batteries.
This thread has been around a while. But, Put a red top in the trunk of my old Camaro back in 07, still going strong. Car sits for a month or so regularly, don't do anything special to keep it up, sure no complaints here.
Getting ready to pull the old Camaro out of storage, red top battery has been on a tender for a couple months, haven't seen the indicator turn green for a long while now, might be shot? Probably due, the Sears Platinum might be the way to go this time around?
Getting ready to pull the old Camaro out of storage, red top battery has been on a tender for a couple months, haven't seen the indicator turn green for a long while now, might be shot? Probably due, the Sears Platinum might be the way to go this time around?
If you store the car half the year, why not get the cheapest Duralast or whatever instead? They suck, but they do function on vehicles that don't have excessive electrical demands- and when left on a tender half the year and not being used, they probably last a long time. If it dies in the first three years, it's warranty and after that- take it back for a deposit on another cheap one.
Sounds as if you don't really need an AGM or expensive battery. I have a six figure car that is on a tender 350 days out of the year and the NAPA bottom tier battery is still testing like new 4 years later.
My full size van/RV/trailer hauler has an AGM, but it's heavily used.
Battery is in the trunk of this Camaro, don't want any "gas" from the battery floating around back there. The Optima type batteries have very little of this from what I've read. Ten years ago that was the only one around - that I knew of.
Battery is in the trunk of this Camaro, don't want any "gas" from the battery floating around back there. The Optima type batteries have very little of this from what I've read. Ten years ago that was the only one around - that I knew of.
Optimas don't have vents like old lead acid types- but they can and do vent gasses when charging and discharging. I'd have whatever type you choose in a box, with a vent through the floor.
Old thread- but I thought I'd share my experience. I used to own an off-road/expedition vehicle company and also have managed two large dealership service and parts divisions.
The Optima batteries made in the last few years are not the same as the ones we used to get "back in the day" which would last 7-10 years easily. The new ones fail rapidly and the warranty support is dismal. They used to sell Optimas for a good deal at Sam's Warehouse thing- except then Optima wouldn't honor warranties... at least on the 4 blue tops I bought that all failed within 3 years- and not from abuse.
I eventually lost a six figure vehicle when a cell in a battery internally shorted and caught the vehicle on fire. My insurance company hired an investigator to determine how it started and that is what they found. Makes sense, as the battery had issues keeping a charge more than a couple days. I cannot say who made the battery because of the terms of a settlement.
The Odyssey batteries have been far better, and they are also sold under the Sears name- their "platinum" AGM style batteries are Odysseys re-branded and cheaper. Fantastic batteries.
This is what I have been trying to say all along. The ones now are not the same quality made years ago. Optima reps will come on here and talk that down. I can't blame them though. Your cutting your own throat in terms of pay if they are going to do that. They won't bad mouth their products. The newer ones probably ain't made here anymore and made outside of the country cheaper I can assume with the profit margin increased. Its all about the shareholders isnt it?Why pay an American worker 20+ an hour when you can pay help pennies on the dollar in Mexico and the taxes are cheaper as well. At one time optima was the only game in town, not anymore. I'll never buy another one or recommend one ever again.
Anyone know the sears platinum "odyssey" part #? Not showing on their site.I used to have on on my bike years ago.They are dry cell batteries, i recall, heavy though.
Anyone know the sears platinum "odyssey" part #? Not showing on their site.I used to have on on my bike years ago.They are dry cell batteries, i recall, heavy though.
It was my understanding that any of the "platinum" die hards were made by odyssey- it was obvious when looking at them as well. It's been years since I looked at them, so it is possible that things changed over the years.
The thing is all i saw was gold & "silver" label diehards, but the silver labels didnt say "platinum" & were cheaper than the gold series, plus they looked like standard lead acid diehards, not the odyessy type case.
I did see the odessy for our cars on autozones site for $239 (+ $18 core), cheapest so far.
It seems so random that this thread would pop back up after being dormant for so long. I am happy to jump back in and offer Optima's perspective. While I understand individual experience may vary, the quality of our batteries has always been excellent and the batteries we are manufacturing today are the best we have ever made. It's ironic that VTSummit is from the Northeast and used to own an off-road/expedition vehicle company, because early on in my work for Optima, I tried to help a customer, who also owned a company that built off-road & expedition vehicles, also in the Northeast. There were six-figure builds there, that included auxiliary lighting, winches, refrigerators, inverters, stereo upgrades, etc.. and the company was outfitting at least some of those vehicles with dual RedTop batteries.
RedTops are great for starting vehicles, but they aren't designed or warrantied for deep-cycle applications, which would definitely include all the stuff this company was throwing into these vehicles. The only time I'd recommend someone use dual RedTop batteries would be in a stock diesel application, where the extra cranking amps are needed. Beyond that, dual batteries should probably be YellowTops, which are designed and warrantied for both starting and deep-cycle use. Point being, if a high-end shop can make a basic mistake in selecting the appropriate product for an application, anyone can. Given all the accessories they were installing in vehicles and the infrequent use those vehicle would end up seeing with their owners, that shop should've also been including battery maintainers with every build that went out the door.
Many of the “bad” batteries returned to us under warranty are just discharge-only and work fine, when properly-recharged. The truck I drive every day starts with someone else's “dead” Optima, as does my wife's car and a bunch of my co-worker's vehicles. We're not alone in that regard. In fact, some other battery brands and manufacturers have dealt with discharge-only warranty returns by simply voiding the warranty on their batteries, if they are found to be discharged below a minimum voltage level. We don't do that with our warranty, which you can read in it's entirety here.
If any battery fails from a manufacturing defect, it is likely to do so well within the first year of use, if not the first few weeks. Beyond that, battery lifespan is largely tied to how the battery is used and maintained. Unlike our RedTop and YellowTop products, which come with three-year, free replacement warranties, our BlueTops come with two-year, free replacement warranties. Internally, the batteries are the same as their YellowTop & BlueTop counterparts, but boat and RV owners tend not to use their vehicles on a regular basis and many don't do a very good job of maintaining their vehicles when they aren't being used. Batteries will deal with neglect for a while, but as they sit in a partially-discharged state, sulfation will build up in the plates, which will diminish capacity and eventually shorten the battery's lifespan (that makes a quality battery maintenance device an excellent investment for any vehicle that doesn't see regular use).
If any battery company had even a 10% manufacturing defect rate, they'd have a hard time keeping their doors open. Even at that astronomically high rate of failure, a consumer would still have a 90% chance of getting a “good” battery. The odds of getting at least one good battery would increase to 99% with their second battery, 99.9% with their third and 99.99% with their fourth and that's at a rate defect rate so high, that it would realistically put a battery manufacturer out of business. When I see the same person having an issue with three or four batteries from any brand or manufacturer, I wonder at what point they'll ask themselves if the battery might not be the real source of the issue? If they're really capable of beating those types of odds, their money might be better spent on lottery tickets.
Batteries are fairly simple components. You can put electricity into them, they can hold it and they can deliver electricity back when needed. Most folks run into trouble when they don't keep enough electricity in their batteries (vehicles can draw varying degrees of current and batteries do self-discharge over time). When folks try to put too much electricity into their batteries, they'll also run into trouble. That typically comes in the form of someone using one of those rolling 100-amp shop chargers, that doesn't properly-regulate current. They may have a 55Ah battery that may be 50% discharged and they hook it up at 100 amps for an hour. That can also happen when an alternator isn't working properly and overcharges a battery in similar fashion. The math and outcome in either scenario isn't good.
I don't know the specific circumstances involved in VTSummit's loss, but if a battery does have a short and has lost a cell, it probably won't be able to hold enough voltage to even start a vehicle. It happens all the time. In fact, losing a cell is not an uncommon failure mode for a battery at the end of it's useful life. There's a lot of money being made in roadside assistance, where shorted batteries are replaced on the side of the road and in parking lots and they don't need to use a fire extinguisher to do it.
There are manufacturers who will re-brand, re-spec or re-label their products to make a sale. Optima will not and as a result, we have lost some business to those who are willing to make such compromises. When Sears stopped selling our batteries, some consumers jumped to the conclusion that it must've been an issue related to quality (it wasn't) and that the AGM product they started selling instead must be better. Well, the battery business is always changing and they now carry our products again and no longer offer those other products. Many who previously made a case for that brand over Optima, based on false premises are now at a loss to explain this latest change (if they're even aware it happened).
tom3, rather than relying on indicator lights, it might be worthwhile to measure your battery voltage. If your RedTop is measuring in the range of about 12.6-12.8 volts, it should be fine. Your warranty is good for three years, so if it does fail within that timeframe, you don't have to pay a pro-ration fee. Instead, you get a free replacement at no cost to you. The sealed design of an Optima battery also makes them far less likely to leak acid than their flooded counterparts. However, all batteries can vent gas in extreme overcharging situations that is both toxic and flammable. Even though that rarely happens, we do recommend that any battery installed in an enclosed location (including trunks and interiors) be properly-vented to the outside air.
TEDSgrad, Johnson Controls owns Optima, but we manufacture all of our own batteries in our own production facility and they are the only batteries produced there. The comparison information on the link you provided is false and may be biased. As I mentioned, our standard consumer warranty on a YellowTop is 36 month, not 12-36 as they claimed. While commercial warranties are shorter, if they wanted to get that far into the weeds, they'd mention the warranty on at least one of the other batteries listed in that comparison can end when the battery reaches “its normal end of life which may occur prior to the warranty periods stated.”
Additionally, some manufacturers and brands are more aggressive than others in the specifications they may claim for their batteries. We prefer to be conservative in our approach, so it's not unusual for our batteries to far exceed their rated specifications. If anyone has concerns, they are welcome to ask their battery retailer to load-test our batteries before purchasing them and see the results for themselves. Every reputable battery retailer will have the capability to run a simple load test.
Jim- I never fitted red tops in my vehicles. The vehicle that had the massive failure had two blue tops on a TJM IBS separator and was not in use when it caught fire.
If customers outfitted their vehicles with what they thought was appropriate, that's up to them. Not one Optima was installed in a customer vehicle by my shop- we used Odyssey and/or Interstate.
Nice try!
At least he admits the dead cells "happen all the time."
So you used one brand of batteries in your personal vehicles multiple times, but never installed them in customer vehicles? That seems unusual. It's not like I'm revealing trade secrets here. Batteries from all manufacturers and brands end up with dead cells all the time. It's a common failure mode in batteries near the end of their useful life and happens millions of times per year. However, that failure mode is typically not accompanied by a battery bursting into flames.
If you want to believe an insurance investigator who concluded those batteries (and I don't even know what brand they were) burst into flames because they (both?) had an internal short, you're welcome to do that. However, if that really were the case, millions of cars would be catching fire every year. Everyone knows what action the DOT took when some mobile devices were at risk of catching fire on airplanes and it didn't take more than a few incidents for that to happen. If there were a legitimate risk of millions of car batteries catching fire because of a common failure mode, there would be similar action from the DOT or some other government agency.
I've seen batteries explode, blow the side out, makes a mess, but I can't imagine a plastic case full of water catching fire. For sure dry cells can and do, and I believe the battery fires on airplanes were Li-ion types from what I've read. Old red top in the Camaro is now ten years old and still starts the 10:1 cr 350 just fine. Probably replace this summer to be safe, same thing will go right back in there too.
Wow this thread is still alive somewhat. I think one other issue that was not brought up was shelf life. I've personally seen these batteries at the local big box stores with manufacture dates 2 and 3 years old. They never get rotated out. Dont know if that is a factor in all this. That may have been my issue when I bought mine. So the last battery I bought was tested at interstate when I had my built in house generator not start and tried to swap this one in for the dead one in an emergency situation. It was a complete fail during the 4 noreasters we had back to back to back 2 years ago. Tons of lines went down and I needed to get the generator started. Mid March needed heat and water. Had to jump the dead one with the truck. It didnt pass interstates testing. It just barely passes a load test even now. I still have it on a agm charger I bought specifically for the Optima. Not the Optima brand charger for FYI though. Will be starting the car soon and the build is nearing completion and the battery has no issues powering the lights and such as of now. I hope it starts the car and takes a charge. I'm on the fence if I'd get another one if this one doesnt make it. It holds a charge. We will see. I'll be sure to post back when all said and done.
tom3, we want your business, but not before you need to give it to us. If you're concerned about the health of your 10-year old RedTop, fully-charge it to at least 12.6 volts and take it to an auto parts store and ask them to load test it for you. Most chain auto parts stores will do this for free (and it can be in your car), but you may not get a valid test if you don't try to fully-charge it first. If it passes a load test, you're probably still good to go for a while, but if you start deeply-discharging it or stop keeping the voltage maintained, then you'll want to have it checked again.
IROCZ1989, I've seen our batteries on dealer shelves with build dates that suggested they were a few years old, but it's rare that I ever see one that is more than about 10 months old. While there shouldn't be inventory that old out there, even in those instances, distributors and retailers are *supposed* to make sure all their inventory is properly-maintained and there really should be no issue with buying a new battery that is a couple years old, if it has been properly-maintained.
Typically when I do see aged inventory from any brand, it's at a small, mom&pop location that doesn't sell many batteries and doesn't turn over their inventory often as a result. We also don't have many big box retailers selling our products, so I'm curious as to either which retailer it was that had old inventory or what you define as a “big box store?” I don't know how your home generator works, but mine starts and runs every month automatically. That way, if I do need it to start in an emergency, there's less of a chance of any surprises. If that's also the case with your generator, was it starting & running in the month prior to the noreasters? So what is the voltage of the battery you have right now and what charger/settings are you using to keep it maintained while you build your car?
Big box store is Advanced Auto. My generator issue was 6 months after I moved in. It was something I never had before so it never ran once a week as it does now. When I bought the house I was told it would kick on in a power loss. Previous owner probably shut off the auto function. It's taken care of now.
I replaced my almost 15yr old red top last fall after I left the key on for about 8hrs. Took it out, saw a bit of corrosion coming from one of the posts, slow charged it, let it sit over night and load tested it the next day. It was still good but I figured it was getting close to its end.
I've seen a TON of dead Optima batteries. I own a performance shop, we do custom builds including engine swaps, etc. I have a 2000 HP AWD Dyno-Jet chassis dyno. Not only do we do high performance, we also lift vehicles, install auxiliary lighting, etc.
The two brands that have continually let us down that purport to make excellent products are Optima and Powermaster. Both can F-off forever IMO. Johnson Controls has ruined the product.
We use Odyssey batteries. They have a 10-15 year design life. And I can say after using hundreds of them over the years - I have yet to see one fail. They just won't die. The damn things can be killed over and over again and they ALWAYS come back. They are truly an AMAZING product you have to experience to beleive.
I wouldn't take a truckload of new Optima batteries for free. The things will leave you stranded. They are riding the good name from the last owner of the brand. They fired the talent and sent production to Mexico.
Odyssey is still owned by Enersys and they make all their batteries right here in the USA.
Johnson controls bought Optima in 2000 from Gylling Optima - a Swedish based company - who manufactured a very high quality battery is Denver, CO. They bought the whole damn operation for 62 Million. They offshored the production to Mexico and rode the brand into every big box retailer (Costco for one) they could find. They are now in talks to sell (or have already sold) the battery business to Brookfield Asset Management for between 13 and 14 BILLION. A tidy profit for the shareholders right as the brand's reputation is starting to trend downward and word of the poor quality is getting around. Wish I had a stake in that 20 year investment! That's a retirement for damn sure.
Who do you want to support? Go check my facts. Read the reviews. Educate yourselves.
Don't get me started on the Powermaster trash.... I just can't even. Fuuuuu***** those con artists.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 04-30-2019 at 01:04 AM.
just to chime in...my brother used to have an '89 Jimmy w/ 36" swampers and the whole nine for off-roading. He bought an optima battery since everyone said it would be better for running the winch off of. The damn thing only worked about 2 weeks for just running the truck itself before it was trash. I think he tried 3 times with them and they were all junk. Better off with a regular battery
IROCZ1989, I guess our definitions of “big box” differ, as I think of something more along the lines of Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc... that occupy 50,000 square feet or more, where a store like Advance Auto is typically well under 10,000 square feet. They do have stores in most states, which does benefit their customers when it comes to warranty service on purchases made. What is the voltage of your battery right now and what charger & settings are you using to maintain it while you build your car?
GeneralDisorder, that's an impressive testimonial to a consumable product with a finite lifespan, that you've seen hundreds and never a single failure. I don't blame you for sticking with what works for you. I do the same and ironically enough, I've had a similarly-positive experience with both Optima and Powermaster, although I can't claim to have never seen failures, as I've encountered thousands and a lot of people along the way, who have done very bad things with both their batteries and alternators.
As many people in this thread have indicated, they've experienced 10 years of service from our products or more, including some who purchased batteries produced in our Monterrey facility. While 10-15 years is not the norm, it's certainly not unusual. However, if we start promoting our batteries as having a 10-15 year design life, the next question will be, “Why isn't the warranty 10-15 years long?” People who take care of their batteries and maintain proper voltage can expect to see longer life out of them, than those who do not and that's true for any brand or manufacturer.
A few people have been beating the drum of the Optima brand riding on the coattails of the reputation built by the previous owners since Johnson Controls acquired Optima 20 years ago. So if that is the case, how long is the ride going to last? If you really believe the quality of our products has been intentionally and significantly diminished in the name of maximizing profit, how long does it take for that house of cards to collapse? Our largest customers are sent free batteries to test, before they even commit to buying any from us. If our batteries don't pass their tests, we don't get those contracts and we lose that volume. That would likely be the first place we'd see a drop in business if we had any declines in quality, but it hasn't happened. In fact, in some cases, our batteries are the only batteries that do pass their tests.
It is interesting to see your criticism of the Optima brand for being widely-available (we are not currently sold at Costco in the US). When I first started working for Optima, one of the knocks against the brand was that a prominent big box retailer stopped carrying our products. Now the claims at that time, were that it was related to quality, while the truth of it was that we were unwilling to compromise our product in any way for any of our retail partners. If there was an effort to truly maximize profit in the Optima brand at all costs, why wouldn't they simply allow a retailer to put their store brand name on Optima batteries?
If you allow a retailer to compromise your product in any way, you open the door for all kinds of compromises and we're simply not willing to do that. The next thing you know, one retailer will offer a different warranty, another will ask you to cut costs on raw materials, so they can get a lower price point, etc... As a result, we never re-label, re-brand or re-spec our batteries for any of our retail partners. If they want to sell Optima batteries, they'll have to sell them with our name on them, built to our specifications.
Now I won't question your math about a 0% failure rate on hundreds of batteries, but I think it is worth pointing out that the Optima brand is a very small part of Johnson Controls' entire battery division. If you want to suggest Optima was acquired for any price in the millions and sold for any price in the billions, I'd like you to cite your sources. Johnson Controls is a publicly-traded company, so it shouldn't be difficult to find a credible news outlet.
Yep - you heard it right here ladies and gentleman - Optima's new tag line - "A consumable product with a finite lifespan!"
Optima batteries have gone the opposite direction from the Odyssey's - offshore the production, lower the price point, and beat the drums as hard as possible with the marketing team.
It's all about price and product placement. You don't see Odyssey in ANY stores really. Other than when Sears sold their Die-Hard Platinum (a re-branded Odyssey) - which they discontinued due to poor sales. The price was simply too high and the general public doesn't understand what they are buying for that money. Incidentally I have a Die-Hard Platinum kicking around the shop that's in the neighborhood of 10 years old and we use it as a jump pack. The thing is a beast.
I have seen Optima in my local Costco. In the last year or two. Perhaps they aren't selling them currently. Costco usually goes for a higher tier product. Perhaps too many got returned?
The Odyssey costs more - about 35% more. But they DO last 10+ years. Compare the reviews and specs of equivalent group 35's from Optima and Odyssey:
And yeah - I'm sure it's *possible* to kill one.... and of course we have seen them drained flat. Especially the PC680 batteries used in many of the race applications due to weight. They have a short reserve capacity. The difference we have seen is that in every case I have encountered of a drained Odyssey (even when they have sat drained for long periods) - they charge back up and are fine.
I have drained the Odyssey in my third gen multiple times - due entirely to Powermaster's crap alternator. I'm on failed alternator #2 and there won't be a 3rd for me. In each case the Odyssey returned to full capacity and was perfectly fine.
Odyssey has a 4 year free replacement on their Extreme batteries. We have NEVER had to use it.
I have seen a truckload of dead Red Top Optima's. I have yet to encounter a dead Odyssey. Just my observations from selling batteries and servicing cars for the last 20 years.
At my shop I have sold Interstate (Johnson Controls makes these also), Duralast Professional (including Optima at the time), and now that our primary focus is performance I have gone to exclusively Odyssey. I do not sell online, only in my brick and motor single location in Portland, OR, so I have absolutely no stake in this argument - this will not generate one single sale for me. This is merely a public service announcement of my statistical experience with many, many cars. Not just a single user with a single failure. And none of my tech's would consider an Optima either. Don't you suppose that all our combined expertise probably understands how to charge and maintain a battery? We know what works and what doesn't - in the real world. Not the make-believe world of marketing and sales.
What *I* personally believe is that sending the production to Mexico probably has led to quality control or raw material quality problems. Such that some people do get 10+ years from the Optima design. But many do not - it's not the design that's at fault but the production environment and quality control. Because prior to the Johnson Controls acquisition and meddling, the Optima was a quality product with a deservedly excellent reputation. Now it's a crap shoot. In my experience Odyssey is a VERY SIGNIFICANTLY lower risk product at a somewhat higher price point but the price difference is far outweighed by the life span. 35% higher price for 100% higher (or more) life span.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 04-30-2019 at 01:39 PM.
What *I* personally believe is that sending the production to Mexico probably has led to quality control or raw material quality problems. Such that some people do get 10+ years from the Optima design. But many do not - it's not the design that's at fault but the production environment and quality control. Because prior to the Johnson Controls acquisition and meddling, the Optima was a quality product with a deservedly excellent reputation.
BINGO!
I had an old, USA made, Optima red top. I KILLED it twice, to the tune of around 2 volts, and it froze over the winter, TWICE, and that sucker came back to life. It slowly it died after that over another 3 or 4 years, which is more than could be expected from being run hard and put away wet.
Anecdotally, everyone I know that has bought a made in Mexico battery don't get a whole long life out of them, if they even make it to the warranty period. I buy East Penn/Deka now because they are, as far as I know, still made in Pennsylvania and somewhat local to me
I buy East Penn/Deka now because they are, as far as I know, still made in Pennsylvania and somewhat local to me
Well Odyssey batteries for the US market are made in Warrensburg, Missouri - so only about 900 miles to the west from you. That's pretty local in the global scheme. Check them out sometime. You'll be pleased with the quality.
Well Odyssey batteries for the US market are made in Warrensburg, Missouri - so only about 900 miles to the west from you. That's pretty local in the global scheme. Check them out sometime. You'll be pleased with the quality.
GD
I will keep it in mind, East Penn is only 80 miles from me though
Yep - you heard it right here ladies and gentleman - Optima's new tag line - "A consumable product with a finite lifespan!"
Optima batteries have gone the opposite direction from the Odyssey's - offshore the production, lower the price point, and beat the drums as hard as possible with the marketing team.
It's all about price and product placement. You don't see Odyssey in ANY stores really. Other than when Sears sold their Die-Hard Platinum (a re-branded Odyssey) - which they discontinued due to poor sales. The price was simply too high and the general public doesn't understand what they are buying for that money. Incidentally I have a Die-Hard Platinum kicking around the shop that's in the neighborhood of 10 years old and we use it as a jump pack. The thing is a beast.
I have seen Optima in my local Costco. In the last year or two. Perhaps they aren't selling them currently. Costco usually goes for a higher tier product. Perhaps too many got returned?
The Odyssey costs more - about 35% more. But they DO last 10+ years. Compare the reviews and specs of equivalent group 35's from Optima and Odyssey:
And yeah - I'm sure it's *possible* to kill one.... and of course we have seen them drained flat. Especially the PC680 batteries used in many of the race applications due to weight. They have a short reserve capacity. The difference we have seen is that in every case I have encountered of a drained Odyssey (even when they have sat drained for long periods) - they charge back up and are fine.
I have drained the Odyssey in my third gen multiple times - due entirely to Powermaster's crap alternator. I'm on failed alternator #2 and there won't be a 3rd for me. In each case the Odyssey returned to full capacity and was perfectly fine.
Odyssey has a 4 year free replacement on their Extreme batteries. We have NEVER had to use it.
I have seen a truckload of dead Red Top Optima's. I have yet to encounter a dead Odyssey. Just my observations from selling batteries and servicing cars for the last 20 years.
At my shop I have sold Interstate (Johnson Controls makes these also), Duralast Professional (including Optima at the time), and now that our primary focus is performance I have gone to exclusively Odyssey. I do not sell online, only in my brick and motor single location in Portland, OR, so I have absolutely no stake in this argument - this will not generate one single sale for me. This is merely a public service announcement of my statistical experience with many, many cars. Not just a single user with a single failure. And none of my tech's would consider an Optima either. Don't you suppose that all our combined expertise probably understands how to charge and maintain a battery? We know what works and what doesn't - in the real world. Not the make-believe world of marketing and sales.
What *I* personally believe is that sending the production to Mexico probably has led to quality control or raw material quality problems. Such that some people do get 10+ years from the Optima design. But many do not - it's not the design that's at fault but the production environment and quality control. Because prior to the Johnson Controls acquisition and meddling, the Optima was a quality product with a deservedly excellent reputation. Now it's a crap shoot. In my experience Odyssey is a VERY SIGNIFICANTLY lower risk product at a somewhat higher price point but the price difference is far outweighed by the life span. 35% higher price for 100% higher (or more) life span.
GD
Are all the Optimas made in Mexico? That's unfortunate if true. Would rather support made in USA all day long even if it was a bit more. Johnson controls even changed the look of the Mega ton Interstate batteries. Just regular black cases now. They look cheap to be honest. When I purchased one a few years back to replace the old green and white one I thought the guy gave me the wrong battery. He said no it's the new case. Like I said looks cheap but no Issues yet with it knock on wood.
I am fairly confident that East Penn is made in USA from recycled materials from this country, I just couldn't find a statement on the website stating as such, but all the batteries I have from them all say "made in the U.S.A." right on them
I am fairly confident that East Penn is made in USA from recycled materials from this country, I just couldn't find a statement on the website stating as such, but all the batteries I have from them all say "made in the U.S.A." right on them
This shouldn't come as a surprise to someone with your extensive automotive experience GeneralDisorder, but all car batteries, alternators, tires, brakes, motor oil, even the cars themselves are consumable products with finite lifespans. They don't last forever and when they reach the end of their useful life, they need to be replaced. That's not a tag line and I realize it runs counter to your personal experience as it relates to batteries, but that's a reality that everyone else who owns a vehicle and doesn't have the good fortune of being one of your customers will experience on some level.
It was smart to back away from the false claim about the Optima brand being bought for millions and sold for billions. You'd have to do that, because while both of your claims about our decline in quality and our brand being bought for millions and sold for billions can be and are false, they both cannot be true. How long would your shop stay open if you performed shoddy work for customers and how much could you sell your business to someone else for, if that were the case? As you've suggested, twenty years is a really long time and companies typically don't build brand-new production facilities to cut corners. They do it to build a better product, which is what Optima did.
IROCZ1989, all of our batteries are produced in our Monterrey facility and they are the only batteries made there. You can take a virtual tour here. I can't speak specifically about other brands, because I simply don't have intimate knowledge of how they operate. However, I can generally say that if a battery is being made for a specific retailer, it is generally built to that retailer's specifications. What is the voltage of your battery right now and what charger & settings are you using to maintain it while you build your car?
This shouldn't come as a surprise to someone with your extensive automotive experience GeneralDisorder, but all car batteries, alternators, tires, brakes, motor oil, even the cars themselves are consumable products with finite lifespans. They don't last forever and when they reach the end of their useful life, they need to be replaced. That's not a tag line and I realize it runs counter to your personal experience as it relates to batteries, but that's a reality that everyone else who owns a vehicle and doesn't have the good fortune of being one of your customers will experience on some level.
How do you explain that Optima has this reputation of a downward spiral of quality in EVERY car enthusiast forum? I could compile threads for hours detailing the failures and the massive numbers of people telling their friends to stay away from the product.
And it goes on and on and on. This is just three from the first page of google results for "Optima vs Odyssey". You really can't find any forum threads anywhere that give repetitive rave reviews of the Optima's post-2007 when the production moved to Mexico. It's also hilarious that you won't actually *say* they are made in Mexico, but rather use the city of Monterrey instead. Which may lead to some people thinking that the city by the same name (nearly same spelling) in CA is what you are referring to. More slight of hand.
So why all the bad reputation? You don't just get that from a move to Mexico by default. I mean - lots of quality products are made in Mexico, China, and elsewhere. And Powermaster - those jokers "make" (assemble) their cheap-a$$ products here in the USA to capitalize on the hot rod community's preference for made in USA parts. But the components quality is garbage. The brushes wear quickly, the rubber components fall apart, and even the metal components have terrible fit and finish.
I have done a lot of searching on this and these are some of the often-cited claims related to the production move to Mexico and quality concerns:
1. Lower quality of lead being used
2. Cheaper glass mat material being used
3. Quality control
4. Loose environmental restrictions in Mexico
5. Cheap (unskilled) labor. See #3
Originally Posted by OptimaJim
It was smart to back away from the false claim about the Optima brand being bought for millions and sold for billions. You'd have to do that, because while both of your claims about our decline in quality and our brand being bought for millions and sold for billions can be and are false, they both cannot be true. How long would your shop stay open if you performed shoddy work for customers and how much could you sell your business to someone else for, if that were the case? As you've suggested, twenty years is a really long time and companies typically don't build brand-new production facilities to cut corners. They do it to build a better product, which is what Optima did.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
Here's the news source stating the purchase price:
Which is admittedly not just Optima. But it does contain Optima. Even if they are say..... 1/13th of the Power Solutions division that's still a 1500% return on the investment just over the purchase price not even considering all the profit from 20 years of sales.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-01-2019 at 12:45 PM.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to someone with your extensive automotive experience GeneralDisorder, but all car batteries, alternators, tires, brakes, motor oil, even the cars themselves are consumable products with finite lifespans. They don't last forever and when they reach the end of their useful life, they need to be replaced. That's not a tag line and I realize it runs counter to your personal experience as it relates to batteries, but that's a reality that everyone else who owns a vehicle and doesn't have the good fortune of being one of your customers will experience on some level.
It was smart to back away from the false claim about the Optima brand being bought for millions and sold for billions. You'd have to do that, because while both of your claims about our decline in quality and our brand being bought for millions and sold for billions can be and are false, they both cannot be true. How long would your shop stay open if you performed shoddy work for customers and how much could you sell your business to someone else for, if that were the case? As you've suggested, twenty years is a really long time and companies typically don't build brand-new production facilities to cut corners. They do it to build a better product, which is what Optima did.
IROCZ1989, all of our batteries are produced in our Monterrey facility and they are the only batteries made there. You can take a virtual tour here. I can't speak specifically about other brands, because I simply don't have intimate knowledge of how they operate. However, I can generally say that if a battery is being made for a specific retailer, it is generally built to that retailer's specifications. What is the voltage of your battery right now and what charger & settings are you using to maintain it while you build your car?
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
Its 13.6 volts. It was on a Schumacher agm charger. Now I tried it on a Viking on regular agm setting. I load tested it and it was fine. So it's good I assume.
GeneralDisorder, we sell more AGM batteries than anyone else in the marketplace by a pretty significant margin. I wish I could share very specific numbers, but I'm prohibited from doing so for a variety of reasons. I can say that we have more authorized retail locations selling our batteries than some other brands have batteries to sell.
Because we sell so many more batteries, there will be far more feedback about our products, both good and bad. One of the challenges we face is that beyond our authorized retailers, there are a lot of unauthorized sellers (I won't even call them retailers) of our products, especially since eCommerce has become so popular. I get updates every day on “new” Optima batteries being sold on Craigslist, Facebook, Offerup, eBay and elsewhere, that are anything BUT new batteries.
I'm registered on thousands of forums and a member of hundreds of Facebook groups and been involved in countless conversations with people and have heard just about everything relating to our products. When I dig deeper into many of these conversations, I find out below the surface of the initial complaint is a battery with an unknown service history that was acquired second-hand from someone who bought a pallet of used batteries at a government auction. Someone else wanted to save $5 and bought a battery online that was shipped in a cardboard box with no padding and arrived damaged and when they reached out to the seller for warranty assistance, they were either gone or referred them back to the manufacturer (all authorized retailers handle warranty service on batteries they sell).
All AGM battery manufacturers and brands deal with those issues, we just deal with them on a far larger scale. The same thing happens with discharge-only warranty returns that someone brings back to their retailer after they let their Corvette sit all winter long with the key fob in the cupholder. Most of the “bad” batteries returned to us under warranty only need to be properly-recharged, but some retailers either don't want to take the time to do that, don't know that or don't want to further upset an angry customer who just wants a new replacement. We've equipped entire fields of Champcar (when they were Chumpcar) endurance race cars with someone else's “dead” batteries and most of my personal vehicles are also equipped with these same “dead” batteries.
Other manufacturers deal with the same issues in different ways, like burying a minimum voltage level requirement on the seventh line of the second page of their warranty (if you can even find their warranty), that you'll only find out about when your warranty claim gets rejected (since you mentioned alternators again, some will even put alternator and charger exclusions into their warranties). We sell too many batteries through too many retail locations to add exclusions like those to our warranty, so a lot of good batteries end up getting recycled, when they still had a lot of life left in them.
There's no slight of hand about where our batteries are made. “Made in Mexico” is printed on every battery we sell and the first line of the video I linked to earlier in this thread is “Welcome to Monterrey, Mexico.” When we talk about our locations internally, we have to be specific, because we sell batteries in countries all around the globe, so I just get in the habit of saying Monterrey, Laredo or Glendale, because that's the exact location where we produce the batteries, our distribution center and our headquarters.
I could google “how to run a hot rod shop” for a year, but that won't make me an expert on the subject and the internet is full of information on the earth being flat, but that doesn't make it even remotely true. You can put together all the lists of reasons you think our batteries aren't any good, but that doesn't mean any of them have any truth behind them. We use 99.99% pure lead, we haven't cut any corners on quality and have actually tightened tolerances thanks in part to advances in technology over the last 20 years and our factory, like every other one owned by our parent company, operates on a global environmental standard. The video I shared shows our production process, which is pretty much automated at this point. Contrary to internet speculation, the biggest expense involved in producing a battery anywhere isn't even close to being labor, but is actually shipping. The lead weighs so much, companies try to strategically locate facilities in areas that reduce shipping costs- closer to the lead mines (all large scale lead mines in the US have closed), smelters (all primary lead smelters in the US have closed), shipping ports, assembly plants, population centers, etc...
As for your suggestion that Optima represents even 1/13th of the battery division's volume, that and the math that follows is again completely speculative, false and based on flawed logic. You might as well tell me an air filter change will give me 50 horsepower, without knowing what air filter it is or what engine it is going on. Even if quality was compromised over the last two years, it would show up in our sales numbers, which would severely impact valuation, which makes me repeat my previous question, which you don't seem to want to answer- If your shop did shoddy work, how long would it stay open and how much would someone pay to buy your business?
IROCZ1989, 13.6 volts is a surface charge. After 12-24 hours, it should settle down into the range of about 12.6-12.8 volts. If it holds close to that level when disconnected, it should be fine. If it sits closer to 12.0 (batteries will have a lower resting voltage as they age), then it could be on it's way out. As long as the charger has an AGM-specific setting, it should be fine. Some chargers have AGM/Gel settings, which may work for gel batteries, but should be avoided on AGM batteries. If your only choice is a regular/flooded setting or AGM/Gel, take the regular/flooded option.
Ok - so the defense is "We sell more batteries to morons that don't know how to use a battery than anyone else". You are essentially saying that a large portion of your customer base are idiots. Excellent. That's basically what it boils down to.
I'm not willing to buy that all these people who can build a hot rod or a jeep or whatever and then post about the experience on internet forums - including relating how they had multiple Optima failures, then switched to Odyssey or NorthStar or whatever and HAD NO FURTHER PROBLEMS - are complete idiots that can't figure out PLUS and MINUS on a battery charger and how to move the selector lever to AGM. How do you explain this? And I think AGM's have been out long enough that people understand you must use a "dumb" charger or jump start it with another battery...... Specifically how you do explain it happening over and over? This seems to be a pretty widespread problem and the general consensus on nearly every forum, reddit, facebook group, etc is the same - stay away from Optima post-2007. In addition, from the 1990's till the move to Mexico - the general consensus was that Optima made a very high quality product.
I understand your arguments, but the in the court of public opinion and testimony, they don't seem to stand up. They certainly don't in my real world experience and I'm well aware of how to charge a battery - even AGM's. My qualifications include, but are not limited to, top-of-class honors as a 52D generation systems and power distribution technician with the US Army, and a degree in software engineering. Not to mention 20 years in the trades and 10 years owning my own retail performance shop.
As far as production location and lead mining, etc - that's BS. The US is the 4th largest producer of mined lead ore in the world. Mexico is #3 by a fairly slim margin. China is #1 with a bullet and India is just about equal to Mexico. Have a look at the International Lead Association fact sheet:
So I wouldn't say that we don't have large scale lead mining in the US. We have marginally smaller production capacity than Mexico - but that's partially due to company's such as yours moving away to China and Mexico and not buying our lead. So that's, at least in part, a RESULT of the move to Mexico, not a CAUSE of the move.
Optima produces the batteries in Mexico because of cost - all costs. The Mexican lead is probably cheaper due to Mexico not giving a fast flying fart if they lose a couple miner's now and then - loose regulations, cheap unskilled manual labor, etc. But of course that's out of the hands of the consumer of the lead since Optima doesn't own the mines - "see no evil" - just blindly profit from it and put American's (your customers) out of jobs in the mining and transportation sector..... And since it's cheaper of course transporting would eat into those saving so relocating the plant to Mexico makes sense. Because F*ck those stupid Americans - they'll buy the product anyway.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-03-2019 at 10:41 AM.
IROCZ1989, 13.6 volts is a surface charge. After 12-24 hours, it should settle down into the range of about 12.6-12.8 volts. If it holds close to that level when disconnected, it should be fine. If it sits closer to 12.0 (batteries will have a lower resting voltage as they age), then it could be on it's way out. As long as the charger has an AGM-specific setting, it should be fine. Some chargers have AGM/Gel settings, which may work for gel batteries, but should be avoided on AGM batteries. If your only choice is a regular/flooded setting or AGM/Gel, take the regular/flooded option.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
So I disconnected the charger last night. When I get home I'll check the voltage and report back.
GeneralDisorder, it's a very simple question to answer, but you seem to be avoiding it all costs, possibly because the answer could contradict everything you claim is happening with Optima batteries. I'm not going to pretend to understand your business and throw around wild guesses as you seem inclined to do with my business, so I can't answer it for you. You know your own business better than anyone else- If your shop did shoddy work, how long would it stay open and how much would someone pay you to buy your business? I'd love to ask you more questions relevant to this conversation and your personal experiences, but I'd be happy if you'd answer that one.
I'm not suggesting anyone is a moron or an idiot, but the reality is there are a lot of people out there, some of them very knowledgeable about cars, trucks and boats, who don't know how to properly-maintain a battery or recover a deeply-discharged battery. I'm working with a guy right now on a Chevelle project, who has forgotten more about cars than most rooms full of mechanics will ever know, but he's still calling me, because he knows there are things I've learned about batteries in the last ten years, that he hasn't picked up in more than 30 years of owning his own shop. If that guy is still seeking knowledge, then I know a lot of other very smart people need help too.
I understand my points don't match your personal experiences, but at the same time, I don't consider your selective googling to constitute anything close to a general consensus or anything resembling a court of public opinion. Why pick a website that shows statistics about lead production from seven years ago? Why not pick one that shows lead production from ten years ago, when the US produced even more? Is it because there is a significant downward trend in primary lead mining in this country? I didn't say all lead mining has ceased, but large scale production is now in other countries and even the lead that is still mined here needs to be processed by a primary smelter and there aren't any in this country.
07-13-2016, 10:45 PM
