traumatech

Hey Mike,

I really appreciate the tips. This thread has given me more info on what I want to do than most of the other stuff on the board. Had one more question, though, if you don't mind. Or anyone else that wants to put in .02. I think way back you said you were using a Tech 1 to get your numbers? Is that right? Where would I look for one of those? Or is there something better? I'd love to be able to plug my laptop into my car and have everything come up in an understandable format, but that's probably way expensive. A scanner that tells me the actual readings from the various sensors while the car's running would be a great tuning tool. I'm sure this is common sense for most of you guys, but give me a break, at least I want to learn! Thanks again.

Logan

Raptor:

my uncle runs an 8 sec Nova so i can get 116 at a discount rate... plus i need it for my 20th Anniversary anyways which has 8.000:1 comp, but needs it b/c of the boost. however that 12:1 is still a variable, i'm still trying to work out the kinks of what i want done to it. (oh, and don't forget xylene; w/ 93 octane gas, thats 100 octane).

anyways... I can get them done at GTP; Stage III shall do and work real well for the job and will flow more and cost less for me then buying an aftermarket set.

as for the billet steel crank... I get good prices on them currently, and i just don't want the crank to split in half like it did on the 20th Anniv... over $6k laying on a dyno wasn't a happy sight.

gtg, peace

Mike Crews

Hey Again Traumatech,

No prob. on the "tips", I don't mind sharing what I've learned with others, as that's how I learn a lot of stuff as well. About the Tech 1 - Yes - that's what I have. I bought it used from my friend who works as the Service Writer at one of my local GM dealers. I paid $550 for it, and I use the heck out of it on my Camaro and ZR1. It has been a good investment for me, as it can pretty much answer any questons that you may have on your car. I think that the Tech 1s are very hard to get unless you know someone at a GM dealer, as they are GM dealer service equipment (but they can be had.) I know that there are other computer software aplications (like Autotap) that perform similar functions, but I am not familiar with them. I don't know if I've been any help or not.

Hey Flash GTA,

Thanks for the info on the pulleys. I already have a Flow Kooler water pump, but I am still running the stock radiator. I'm going to look into the Power and Amp pulley set. I know that this is a loaded question, but did you see a performance increase from the pulleys?? Just wondering.


Later, Mike.........

89Raptor

Logan, sounds like your 20th Ann. is one mean Turbo. As far as the heads I still would prefer a head with a better combustion chamber design than the L98. But it sounds like you have the inside line on the go fast for cheap parts and service. Hope it all goes well for you.

FlashGTA

Well Mike I could lie and say yes, but to be honest it was already such a beast that I didn't really feel a difference. But I have to believe it made a difference. Car Craft did a test and picked up about 1/10 second in the 1/4 after putting on underdrive pulleys. And they have to help, but it's hard to tell a 1/10th difference by SOTP driving. I do know they look great, black powdercoat!

Mike Crews

Thanks for the reply Flash GTA. I think that I'm going to wait until we get a little more into the summer here (June-ish), to make sure that my car runs OK in the heat as it is now. Right now it running nice and cool. Then I'll put on set of the pulleys and see if they work. If that Car Craft article is "accurate", a 0.1 gain in the 1/4 for the cost of the pulleys a bargain (provided there are no other drivability problems). I'm going to try to pick up a used set on the Thirdgen board.

It's been raining here for the last two days, so the track's probably closed tonight. Oh well, maybe next weekend.

Later, Mike.......

vaper

358 BLUES, Hey Mike or 89 Rapture need some advice I just talked to Gen at Street&Performance and he said that my set up was pretty good but my cam has so much duration @.50 that it is PULLING to much vacume at idle where my speed density can't read it that's why it's running rich. he say's i have 3 options get a dfi system superram intake to rev. to 5800 or change the cam lastly put a carb here are my specs 357 dart iron eagle heads 200cc runners ported&poltshed 2.02 1.60 valves 6" lunoti rods srp forged pistons ultradyne cam 288/296 int.@.50 223 exh. is 231 112 lobe lift is .582 590 adv. 6 deg.. edl. intake slp runners ported plenum stock tb. thanks for any advice...VAPER..

Mike Crews

Hey Vaper,

Yea, I remember commenting to you about how big that cam was. I was afraid that you might have some trouble getting it to run properly. I'm not one to give "advice", but if it were my money, it looks like the cheapest/easiest way to go is to buy another cam that is properly matched to your other components. I know that kind of sucks, but that's going to be a LOT cheaper than switching to a carb, or buying another TPI intake system. I'm not going to go so far as to recommending specific cam specs, but IMHO for a 350, they should be around 210 - 220 intake, and 220 - 230 exhaust, with 110 - 114 LSA. I'm sure that there's about a thousand cams that meet those criteria, so you need to do some homework, and pick the one you like the best based on your combo. You could also call/e-mail Crane, CompCams, etc,. and they wiil help you to pick "the perfect" cam according to them. You can also find good info in GM High Tech Perf. Magazine, and on this board. I spent a ton of hours on the board before I decided what cam to buy. There's a lot of info available. Just search for it, then read on.

Cam selection is always a hotly debated topic, but I'll be glad to offer any further assitance that I can. I'm running a "baby" cam (LPE 74211) in my car compared to a lot of people on the board, but it still does OK (12.47 @107). When it comes to cams, bigger isn't always necessarily better (again, just my opinion).

Keep me posted on your selection process and any questions that you might have.

Later, Mike.......

89Warbird

Vaper, I tried to look up your cam on Ultradynes site but it's not listed, is it a custom grind? The reason was to plug it into desktop dyno and see what happens. I put in the raw numbers and I plugged in some assumptions such as exhaust and compression ratio, but I did use your head's flow numbers and I tried my cam with your engine and it made more power with my cam than with your ultradyne. I have a Comp cams 08-502-8, 218/224 .498/.503 a much milder cam but better suited to a LTR engine. I have to agree with Mike, you need a different cam. Depending on all the specifics would determine which cam is best for you.

vaper

Yes 89 Warbird it is a special grind I talked to the cam tech about 30 min. about my engine build and he said that this would work with my combination i read some back issues on speed density computers and cam selections thats why i had concearns with the duration. how does your cam idles does it have a noticible lope how much did it cost? i'm running about 10.5 to1 compression desk top dyno listed my numbers at 420 hp. @ 5500 440 tq. @ 4800 rpm i also have headmon shorty headers with the american thunder catback system later . VAPERf

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

What's your car run at the track? It looks like you and I have very simlar combos. I'm still kind of considering moving up to a little bigger cam in the future, as the 72411 cam is a bit small for a 383 (112 LSA, 211/219, .533/.525 with 1.6/1.5). I actually bought it for a 350, but went 383. I would also be interested in hearing how much your cam cost, and how it runs. The specs of that cam are almost right on to what I would use if I was to replace mine.

Thanks, Mike.........

89Warbird

Vaper, yes it has a noticeable lope to it. It cost $240 from Summit, it is not a billet cam, it's a cast cam, surprised me. My cam with your combo shows 436 HP at 5500 and 481 TQ at 4000.
Mike, I am still doing break-in miles on it so I don't have any dyno or track numbers. This cam was recommended to me by Comp Cams and was milder than the cams I was considering. But Desktop Dyno says it makes more power than any of the other cams I was considering. When I get some numbers I'll post them. Desktop Dyno says 450 HP and 520 TQ for my combo.

Mike Crews

Thanks for the info Warbird. I found the cam in the Summit book, it was listed under the LT1 section. Are there any real advanatages to having a billet cam (does it even matter)? I don't even know if my LPE cam is billet (the catalog say it's a "hardened steel core", whatever that means). I can't wait to see what your dyno numbers and track times are. You and I have similar enough combos that I can get some good comparison data from you.

Listen, if you get time and it's not too much trouble, I sure would appreciate it if you could punch my numbers into your desktop dyno to see what my estimated hp/tq would be (I'm not really sure what kind of data that you need for the desktop dyno). If not, I understand, that's cool too. I'd like to compare my current/actual dyno #s to desktop dyno numbers, and also to see if it would show a gain by switching from the LPE 74211 (211/219, .533/.525 with 1.6/1.5, 112LSA) to the cam that you are using.

Thanks / Later, Mike........

89Warbird

Mike, I need the intake centerline for your cam. You don't list it and it's not on the LPE website. I put it in assuming a 110 centerline and I got this. Desktop Dyno goes in 500 RPM increments so that is as close as I can get.
373 HP @ 5000 rpm.
514 TQ @ 3000 rpm. 501 TQ @ 3500
If you take out 20% loss for drivetrain that works out to Rearwheel:
295 HP @ 5000 rpm. Your actual dyno numbers 293 HP
411 TQ @ 3000 rpm. 401 TQ @ 3500 rpm. Your actual dyno numbers 415 TQ.
Pretty close to estimated and actual.
Now your combo with my cam shows.
428 HP @ 5000 rpm.
505 TQ @ 3500 rpm.
That was with 1.5's on intake and exhaust. I just realized you have 1.6's on the intake. So, the new numbers are:
1 more HP and 1 more FT-LB of TQ.
429 HP @ 5000
506 TQ @ 3500

So that's a gain of over 50 HP and effectively the same TQ.

Vaper, let me add it's a very mild lope with my cam, certainly nothing like your present cam I'm sure.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Vaper, that cam isn't too big, one of my friend's has a miniramed 91 Z with the 236-242 cam from comp, and it idles fine. You need to tweak the chip to fix the idle.

Mike, congrats on your combo. That LPE 211 cam builds cylinder pressure early and makes good power. That cam will get you into the 11's, there are some LT1's running 11's with that cam. I have the LPE 219, and if you compare your cam with others of the same duration, you'll see that it is way more aggressive on the lobes (advertised duration - duration @ .050). Keep up the good work, experimenting with combo's is the only way to find out what works.

I've been on this board for years, and most people only go by what they've heard, and not by actual results.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Mike Crews - Billet Cam vs. cast cam: A couple differences are, it's ALOT harder to flatten a lobe on a billet cam, billet cams are pretty and shiny (like the factory TPI cams), plus they shed oil a little better than cast cams. Billet cams are the way to go, they are just a little more expensive though! Hope this helps!

Oh yea, in 2 weeks, I'm pulling the motor to freshen and complete the 6-speed swap!! (waiting on flywheel)


L8r,
Mike

vaper

89GTA383 that's one of the problems to make my set up run right i need a miniram or superram when i first started my car it ran rich fp set @ 38 pounds does your friend have speed density or maf right now i'm only reading 8 to 10 pounds of vacume @ idle my chip is seeing that and thinks there is a load.. iv'e talked to at least 4 chip burners and they basicaly told me the same thing they liked the combo but my duration is the problem lope is tremendous rattles the car like u wouldn't believe...VAPER.. tpis recomended there miniram 1,000.00 $w/ their chip 575.00 $ i will buy a carb or change the chip first.

vaper

OPPS, I mean the cam. VAPER

Mike Crews

Warbird, THANK YOU for the desktop dyno info. I really appreicate your time and effort. :hail:

My LSA is actually 112, but I'm sure that the numbers you gave me at 110 are close enough. I'm stunned at two things. First, I'm surprised how close your desktop dyno numbers are to my actual dyno numbers. I didn't really expect it to be that accurate. Second, I just can't make myself believe (but I'm trying)that switching to your cam is going to give me 50 more hp at the same tq. That is just amazing to me, and seems too good to be true. If I manage to convince myself it's possible/accurate, I'll be buying a cam like yours. 50 hp for just the cost of a cam swap is to good a bargain to pass up. That's a hard decision to go into my engine when it's running so well. But I really want to get into the 11s naturally aspirated. Yes, a very tough decision indeed..............I must think on this. Are you expecting your car to be in the 11s?

1bad91Z, thanks for the "skinny" on billet cams, I didn't know any of that, and will keep it in mind.

89gta383, Thanks for the kind words and complments. I really want to get into the 11s, but I don't know what else to do. I think that I'm stuck at 12.4 @107. The only thing that I don't have is underdrive pulleys, and I'm kind of still scared of those (cooling & charging questions). However, I am considering them. I'm thinking that I need more duration (a bigger cam), but I don't know. I'm thinking that the LPE 211 is a little small for a 383, but I know that LPE used them in all of the old LTR 383s that they built (but they only advertised 12.7 in the qtr in the old catalogs). Oh well.

Thanks Again Guys. Later, Mike.........

89Warbird

Mike, glad you liked the numbers. I did use 112 LSA, I just didn't have the intake CENTERLINE. But I think I guessed correctly based on the numbers I got. As far as running 11's, I figured I would be pulling low 12's and maybe if the planets are properly aligned to pull me down the track, the wind is blowing hard pushing me down the track, the air is reading about 200 ft. below sea level, I use about 2 gallons of VHT and everything else goes right I might break an 11, but you just never know!
I'm not concerned about the cam being cast instead of a billet cam. Comp Cams makes good stuff, if they sell it they tested the crap out of it first.

Mike you might want to just wait and see what I get on the Dyno. It might be a couple of months, or more, car is going in for paint, ram air hood, 4th gen style wing and new ground effects, so the break-in miles will be stopped until I get it back again. But a cam change is a big job. Your car is running great, so be happy with it and wait and see what I get before you make your final decision. I think the Desktop Dyno numbers are right but why not wait and find out.

CYA!

89Warbird

Mike, almost forgot I used my head flow numbers and not stock Vortec head numbers so judging from the results our heads must flow almost the exact same.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

vaper, he is running speed density, and I think you are also, by your vacuum comments. Those chip dudes don't know what they are talking about, if my friend can get a 236-244 duration cam to work in his 91, then you should have no problems.

Without looking at the 8d hack, and trying to remember how he fixed his, larger duration cams bleed off cylinder pressure at idle. His car was sitting in cell 4 at idle and was running rich. For larger duration cams, you have to increase timing and lower the volumetric efficiency values in the chip to compensate. As rpm's increase, you have to do the opposite because the cylinder is being filled more completely. I think his idles at like 900-1000 rpm. I think with the 6e code, any idle pulsewidth over 1.5ms takes the computer out of idle mode, but don't quote me. I'm not sure about the 8d code.

Turn your fuel pressure back up to 44-45, and have the chip dude increase your injector constant, which will result in a leaner and shorter pulsewidth from the injectors. That may be all the help you need.

vaper

89GTA383 yes i'm running speed density too my car is a 1990 gta ed wright told me that i would have to set my rpm at 1000 to at least start from there but w/ my cam and ltr set up i would be out of breath at 5000 rpm who did the programing for your friend's car. if you could can u list his specs on the moter.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

He has a 383, 11.2 compression, ported AFR 210's, comp 236-244 cam, hooker longtubes with dual exhaust, miniram, vigilante, and 3.73 gears. His chip is from TPIS. He had to send it back like 6 times, but we made runs with my scanner to diagnose what the problem was. You can't fix it without a scanner, or some other way to monitor what the car is doing computer wise.

You car will be fine with the LTR's, don't believe everything you hear. Look at Mike's car, I've got a superram, and haven't hit 12.40's yet. I just hurt my motor, so I won't even get to find out for a while.

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

Yes, I did like your desktop dyno numbers, Thanks Again. You're right, I need to wait until you get your dyno & track numbers before I go spending more money and making changes (and my wife agrees also). I guess that I'm finding myself getting greedy, as my car went from 12.9s to 12.4s with a minmum of tweaking after the new motor was installed. The car running fairly well, and I should be satisfied (at least until you get your numbers - he he). I am excited that I have a lead (your cam) on what I could do to bump my car up a bit, that's always good to know.

Oh by the way, I went to the track Saturday night with my new chip. I ran 3 mid 12.6s with the new chip. I switched back to my previous chip, and went back into the 12.4s. I havn't really figured that out, as the new chip had much better block learn values than the previous one. The car runs at least .15 seconds faster with a chip that runs lean with block learns in the 150 range (the new chip was in the 130 range, almost "perfect", it was just slower). Dean (my chip guy) is pondering this info, and working on a solution for me. Any ideas from you guys ?????

Later, Mike.........

BadSS

First - Thanks Mike for sharing so much info with everyone. I think your combination is a fine example of how fast you can go just by paying attention to details and having a plan worked out well in advance,,, and sticking to it.

Mike, I've been using simulation software since 1992 and have compared it to a number of dyno pulls I've had over the years and compared it to a number of customers pulls for the engines I built for them. I have not used a real dyno for myself since 1994,, being many times within a few HP of the peak numbers. Not to step on Warbird's toes or Desktop Dyno in general, but I thought his comparison numbers looked very high between your cam and the cam he's running. The only way I could get the numbers for the simulation to match the known corrected numbers from you were to have your cam advanced 4 degrees. I don't know that to be the case for you,, but I'm going to assume (oh no) that's how your cam is installed since the numbers are near exact when I plug in your cam with 4 degrees advancement.

211/219 - 112 (advanced 4) .533/.525 (1.6/1.5)
RPM -- EA est.----Actual corrected
3500 - 432 TQ -- 432 TQ
5300 - 306 HP -- 305 HP
5500 - 296 HP -- ?
6000 - 262 HP -- ?

218/224 - 110 (straight up) .531/.503 (1.6/1.5)
RPM -- EA est.
3500 - 428 TQ
5300 - 316 HP
5500 - 309 HP
6000 - 270 HP

218/224 - 110 (retarded 2) .531/.503 (1.6/1.5)
RPM -- EA est.
3500 - 422 TQ
5300 - 320 HP
5500 - 314 HP
6000 - 273 HP

211/219 - 112 (retarded 2) .533/.525 (1.6/1.5)
RPM -- EA est.
3500 - 425 TQ
5300 - 317 HP
5500 - 310 HP
6000 - 271 HP

Based on these simulations, and a number of major estimations on my part, if you are in fact 4 degrees advanced right now,, I'd phase the cam minus two degrees before I would swap to this cam shaft.

I did whack at a couple cam shafts and something like a 236/244 on a 114 spread with 4 degrees advancement would give it a little unnatural torque boost around 3500 RPM and would give you more pull up top,, but your torque under 3250 rpm would start dropping like a rock. Thus,, making a move back to 3.73 gears and a higher stall needed to run quicker in the quarter than you are now. Here's some numbers on a ficticious cam compared to your current cam at 2 degrees retard.

236/244 - 114 (advanced 4) .533 / .525 (1.6/1.5)
RPM -- 236/244 --- 211/219
3000 -- 368TQ ----- 404TQ
3500 -- 440TQ ----- 425TQ
5300 -- 338HP ----- 317HP
5500 -- 333HP ----- 310HP
6000 -- 301HP ----- 271HP

Anyway,, it's getting late, and probably should not have spent this much time monkeying around with this. By no means do I stand by these numbers as accurate since I had to guess at so much to get just a couple numbers to match up. However, they are a pretty good indication compared to themselves what the different cams should do. Like Warbird said,, I'd definately wait to see what his numbers are before I would do anything.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

I have the LPE 219 cam, and I thought that he ground the 211 and 219 cams both on a 112 intake and exhaust centerline. My 219 cam degreed right at 112 on the intake.

The 211-219 cam has gotten some LT1 guys into the 11's so it's not a bad cam. The 211 and 219 cam were designed to minimize reversion and maximize cylinder pressure, so they are more aggressive on the lift versus duration.

If you move up to another cam, I'd look at the 219-219 with 1.6 rockers .560 lift, or maybe a custom ground cam under or right at 230 duration and lift at the max that your heads flow at.

89Warbird

Mike, here is a link to see all the data from Desktop Dyno. I never quote numbers below 3000 rpm because I have found them to be wrong, I don't understand that either. Anyway you can see what I got.

http://home.att.net/~danboren/index.html

I ordered my chip today, Dean says he will start me out on Crews5 as my initial chip. I can't wait!

Mike Crews

Hey BadSS - Thanks for the compliments. That looks like an awesome amount of work you put into those numbers. Thanks a lot for the info. It's interesting to see the differences between two different types of programs (desktop dyno and your simulation software) for computing performance. I need to spend some more time looking at those numbers. I did not actually assemble my short block (an engine builder friend of mine did). I called him today, and he said that he installed the cam straight up (just as the LPE cam card recommends), so your 4 degrees advanced assumption should not be accurate (I hope). He also said the the cam degreed right on the money. However, I guess that he could have made an error, but he's pretty good, so I don't think so (again - I hope). I actually meant to have him to retard it 1 or 1.5 degrees, but I forgot to ask, so I left it as it was assembled (I just didn't feel like going back into it). I actually started out with 3.70s in my car, but moved back to the 3.27 and picked up a a few mph in doing so, as the car was revving too high on the top end of the 1/4 (and was out of breath).

I'm borrowing a set of Power & Amp Pulleys from a friend who wrecked his car, and I'm going to bolt them on and see if they help me. I'm going to hold off on the cam change until I see what Warbird's dyno and track numbers look like (it sounds like we all agree on that).

Warbird, I'm anxious to see how "my" chips run in your car. I ran high 12.5s to low 12.6s with Crews5. Do you have a Tech 1 or another Scantool of sorts? I'm curious to see how your block learns are running compared to me, as I still have all my Tech 1 data from all 8 of my chips. You'll like working with Dean. The only problem I'm still having is a low TPS voltage vs. rpm. I get a full span on my TPS voltage (.54 - 4.5), but my TPS voltage vs rpm is always low for part throttle conditions. For exampe, at say 4000 rpm, I'm only at about 1.5 volts. I've even switched TPSs and throttle bodies with no effect. My car has been this way since the day I started it with the new motor, I don't know what the deal is.

Well, got to go. Later, Mike.......

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

I just went to the link that you sent me, and printed all that stuff. Thanks a lot. It's getting late right now (at least for me), so I'll look at it more tomorrow. I'm going to compare to the data that BadSS did, and see where things differ. Oh - got to go, my wife says that it's time for bed.

Thanks again. Mike......

89Warbird

Mike, glad to help, I figured seeing all the data would help.

BadSS

Warbird, I'm thinking where the differences in the two cams are due to the way your programs look at estimating power based on .050 lift figures and seat figures???? If you can manually input numbers for the cam shafts, try compaing them both at seat and then both at .050 and see if that's why one is showing so much higher output than the other. Also throw an exhuast on it,, how free flowing your exhaust system has a profound effect on what size cam you can run without getting goofy torque spikes an drops.

Mike,, I'm sure your cam is right where your builder said it is. I just took a guess that it could be at +4 (a lot of cam have 4 degrees built in),, and if so you could get some "free" power by retarding it a couple degrees,, based on your combination. There used to be an editorial on DD2000 and Engine Analyzer written by David Vizard at motortecmag.com,,, but I don't know what's going on there,, something goofy is popping up,, and it's not motortec. Basically Vizard thought both gave very accurate results showing peak HP and TQ, the EA was harder to use, but gave better lower rpm estimates. My best guess reading between the tow articles, it sounded that the differece might be due in part to the extra expense of the software going towards programming ($45 vs $95). However, neither is what I'd call accurate at lower RPMs,, especially with the smaller cam shafts. One function of the EA, that I'm not sure about on DD2000,, is You can change the runner diamter, length, and efficiency of the intake on the EA. I'm a little bias toward the EA software,, because that's what I know. I'm sure it's the same for the guys using DD2000.

Anyway,, best of luck to you both - Mike and Warbird.

89Warbird

BadSS, I've tried engines with different exhaust combos and the small tube header with no mufflers is the closest to actual power for a modified TPI, because you have no other way to adjust for it. I have tried putting in numbers from different engine builds in Magazines and it's usually closer like this. As far as seat to seat and at .050. Those are the specs I'm given by the cam makers so that's what I go with. The Comp Cam numbers are from the Cam Card and the LPE numbers are from their website. If I put in the at .050 for the comp cam it would be less accurate because then the program guesses at the IVO, IVC , EVO and EVC. And in all actuality the Comp Cam numbers aren't seat to seat but at .006 lift. So the numbers should be close since Deskto Dyno is most accurate with seat to seat numbers instead of @.050. But you bring up a good point, I don't know how accurate the comparison is using seat to seat vs .050 numbers. But based on Mike's Dyno numbers I would say very accurate.

Mike, I changed your LPE to a 112 centerline and it only changed power by 2 HP. If you have the seat to seat numbers I'll plug them in.

I do have my own AutoXray scanner, still learning with it. This is my first FI car, I've been a carb man for 25 years so some of this is still pretty new to me. My MAF started going bad today so I have to order a new one tomorrow, that will slow things up a bit. Anyway, my car has to run better with your chip than the stock 87 chip in it now.

Mike Crews

Warbird & BadSS,

Thanks to both of you guys for investing so much time and effort on my behalf. I have never used any software like the EA or DD2000, so I'm learning a lot from both of you guys. I don't have any seat to seat numbers that I'm aware of.

Warbird, what MAF are you going to buy (maybe the Wells)? I'm kind of interested in the Wells, even though I don't "need" a MAF right now. I'm running a "ported" MAF (no screens, heat sinks cut down and polished) from Mid-America Corvettes right now.

My car is still running its best times (12.4s) with Crews6, even though my Tech 1 says it's running lean. However, I used Crews6 on my last dyno run, and the dyno guy said that the Air/Fuel was dead on, and he wouldn't change a thing with the chip. I'm curious to see how your car runs with Crews5 (with the extra cubic inches that you've got). By the way, how do you get a "389"?

Thanks Again guys. Later, Mike......

89Warbird

Mike, I did buy a Wells MAF, it will be here in the middle of the week. My engine is actually 388.4 CID, Eagle crank and bored .060 over, but after you hone it a little, then round up a little 389! Besides a 389 is a famous Pontiac mill and I can get a repro engine sticker with the Pontiac Arrowhead that says 389-2. Not that I think 6 CID will matter much, the historical significance was there, so I took it. It might be lost on a lot of younger people who aren't aware of that motor.

To add insult to injury, my MAF dying and then my alternator died today, but it has a lifetime warranty.

Later

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

Yea, I know about the old Pontiac 389, but I didn't make the connection until you mentioned it. Please let me know what you think about the Wells MAF when you get it, as I might just buy one for myself. If you don't mind me asking, who did you buy it from, and how much was it?

I'm going back to the track either Thursday or Saturday night. I'll have the Power & Amp pulleys installed, and I'll be running (testing) 3 chips - Crews6 (again), Crews7 (again), & Crews8 (new). I'll let you know how each one runs, as it might be useful information for you.

Later, Mike.......

89Warbird

Mike,
A lot of people seem to forget about the 389. But when I was deciding how much to bore out my engine and I got that number with .060 over I made my decision. I got my MAF from World Discounts for $166.45, it and the chip should be here Wednesday or Thursday. That should really straighten out my engine. I'll be interested in your track numbers.

CYA

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

My engine is actually a .30 over 350 block with a 383 crank, so I guess that mine must be something like a 385 or 386. I want to make my ZR1 (LT5) a 385, but that costs about $30K (riduculously expensive).

Thanks for the info on the MAF. Is the Wells MAF supposed to deliver improved air flow over the stock GM MAF? Is it bigger in diameter, and does it have internal heat sink fins? $166 seems like a bargain to me for a MAF. Are any modifications required to use the Wells MAF?

Thanks/Later, Mike.........

GregWestphal

iTrader: (1)

Actually, a 350 with the stock 4" bore and a 400 crank comes out to 377 cubic inches. Boring it out .030" (your's is definitely not .30" over) makes it a 383. Warbird can call his 388.4 cubic inch engine a 389 since Ford called their 302 a 5.0 even though it's only 4.94 liters. Of course, the LT5 will be different since it doesn't have a 4" bore or a 3.48" stock stroke (not sure what the stroker cranks are).

Mike Crews

Hey Greg,

Thanks a lot, I always wondered what a 377 was - so mine is a 383. Oh yea - my bad - I meant .030 (not 0.30).

The ZR1 is 3.90 bore X 3.66 stroke. With cylinder sleeves and rods, I can go to 368 ci, and they make several stroker cranks for 385, 400, 402, and 415 motors (depending on the combination of sleeve bore and crank stroke). I've been trying to find a good deal on a stroker crank, but they are just to expensive for me right now. A new 415 crank can cost $6- 8000, but you can find a used one occasionally for around $2- 3000 (still pretty expensive).

Thanks/Later, Mike.....

89Warbird

Mike, the Wells MAF is supposed to flow more, 750 CFM and has no fins in it. It is supposed to be plug and go with no mods, I'll find out for sure very soon.

89Warbird

Mike, what angle do you have your pinion set at? I have 3 degrees and I'm melting the tires. Also what does your Oxygen sensor normally read, mv? Thanks!

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

My pinion angle is set at -2 (minus 2). It's a pain to set the pinion angle on my car, because the magnet on the angle finder will not stick to my aluminum driveshaft. If my tires (drag radials) are cold, they may spin a bit. However, once they are warm, my car absolutly will not spin the tires (it's pretty amazing). It squats just a little and goes like heck. I've got all Spohn: SFCs, LCAs w/adjustable brackets, torque arm, & panhard bar. I've got my LCAs in the middle position of the brackets. At the track, I launch at 1800 - 1900 rpm (that's about all my brakes can hold). The tires don't spin, and they don't make a sound when the car shifts. My 60' times are always between 1.67 and 1.71. I guess that I've been lucky. I have not had the traction problem that I expected with all that torque. I expected to have traction problems even with the suspension work, but much to my surprise, it has worked great since the first day that I put it all on.

The only O2 #s I have handy are: idle 31 mv, 2000 rpm 56 mv, 3000 rpm 72 mv. I can get you a full later tonight (from Crews6).

Later, Mike........

Mike Crews

Warbird,

I just got back from going out to drive my car and get some fresh O2 readings for you. Well, I won't have any new data for you tonight for 2 reasons. First off, my O2 readings are jumping around like crazy from like 50 - 600. My car does that sometimes, and I have had difficulty getting a good set of O2 readings occasionally in the past because of this. Also, it seems that it is "Prom Night" in my area, and the roads are packed with hundredes of teenagers all using thier parent's cars. So, I elected not to stay out and wait for the O2 readings to settle out. Maybe I can hook you up tomorrow. I'm going to the track tomorrow night if it doesn't rain.

Later, Mike......

vaper

Hey Mike, its me Vaper are u still going down to Silver Dollar Race track Sunday I will be there but I will have to leave the vaper at home looks like i will be going carb VAPER...

Mike Crews

Hey Vaper,

I had planned on going to the F-Body Shootout, but I have some other commitments that will not allow me to attend. I was on the website yesterday, and there are already something like 135 cars registered to run. It looks like it should be a blast. I wish that I could go, but I can't. Oh well.

Good luck on your carb swap. Keep us posted.

Later, Mike.......

89Warbird

Mike, my O2 numbers are doing the same thing and I didn't understand it. According to my book for my scanner it should be fairly steady above 500 Mv. But it isn't and I don't understand that at all. I never really paid attention to it before the motor swap so I don't have any before and after data to compare. Like I said before, this is my first F.I. car, all carbs before this so I'm learning. Is your pinion pointed down or up from centerline? I call negative pointing down but SPOHN calls that positive. Mine is set at 3 degrees down from centerline. Thanks!

Mike Crews

Warbird,

You should be measuring 2 angles (and using the difference between the two). You need the angle of the driveshaft, and the angle of the differential unit. For example, when my car is on the lift, the angle finder reads 0*when attached (only because evething was constructed level; it could very easily read something else if you are not on a level surface). When placed against the driveshaft, the angle finder reads 2*. Using 0* as your reference, the needle is pointing towards the REAR of the car 2*, which gives you a differential of minus 2* (subtract -2* from 0*= -2*). If it was pointing towards the front of the car, it would be positve angle. Is this how you are doing it?

As far as the O2 readings go, I am a novice at much of the scan tool use and data interpretation. Pretty much everything I have learned in the last few months has been from working with Dean. For whatever reason, Dean has not discussed the use of the O2 readings when we have been modifying my chips. I really have not used if for much of anything. I have been focusing mainly on my Block Learns. My TPS volatge is low, but I have been unable to fix that (plus it seems to have no effect on the car). Anyway, I would recommend that you call Dean and ask him. If not, I would be happy to call him, as I speak with him about once a week or so it seems. He also does very well with e-mail questions, maybe you could try that (airdeano@swbell.net). Please let me know what he says if you contact him, as I would also like to know what's going on with the O2 readings.

Later, Mike........

89Warbird

I e-mailed Dean about the oxygen sensor readings. I read and reread your post on the torque arm and I just couldn't figure out about the angles you were talking about. The instructions I have talk about the driveshaft and the torque arm mounting plate. I'll call Spohn and figure this out. All I know is it ain't right.

Mike Crews

Hey Warbird,

I'll try this again, I know it's confusing.

To get the angle number that you are looking for, you need to subtract the driveshaft angle from the pinion angle. So here's how you get those angles. First stick the angle finder on a clean part of your drivehshaft, and measure the angle. The needle should be poniting towards the rear on the car (due to the downward slope of the drive shaft), so this is considered a negative angle. Next, stick the angle finder on the flat surface of the torque arm mounting plate that is on the bottom of your differential unit (stick it between the two big nuts). Record that angle (againpaying aention to if it is positive or negative). Now subtract the drivehshaft angle # from the differential unit angle - this is ytou true pinion angle. In other words, you want to prelaod the torque arm so that the pinion is pointed 2 - 4 degrees more (down towards the ground) than the drivehsaft.