Mike Crews

Hey REDZ28, thanks for the info. I'm still looking it over.

OMINOUS_87, that's a great post. It looks like you do your research the way that I do mine. First I read everything that I can find, separate the bull from the good stuff, cross-reference info whenever you can, and then I make an informed decision based on what I've learned (or at least what I think that I have learned). Anyway, I like everything that you say in your post. It all makes good sense to me. GMHTP (Sept. 2000) had a great article that looked at several sets of heads. In that article, they rated the Vortecs at 71.07% I/E flow ratio. Therefore I agree with you about using a dual pattern cam (versus a single pattern like the 219). I have pretty much decided on the CC 218/224 (CS-XR269HR-12 / 08-502-8). Another GMHTP article (July 2000) says (in their opinion) that 215/222 is the best duration for a LTR 383. I have found a Crane cam that is 214/222 with .488/.509 (p/n 109821 / grind # HR-276-2S-12 G), so I am still kind of looking a it too. 89Raptor is running a 389 vortec motor with the CC218/224, but I have not seen on the board how his car is running. I'm hoping that he lets us know at some point. I'm kind of waitng on his dyno numbers (and track times) to make my final decision. He also ran my engine through his Desktop Dyno. First he used my LPE 211 cam, and the numbers came out very, very close to my actual dyno numbers (kind of a "calibration check"). Then he ran my engine with the CC 218/224, and it picked up hardly any torque (like 5), but it also picked up 47 hp !! (incredible, if you can believe it). Plus, it moved my torque curve up a bit in the rpm range (about 500 rpm) which is a good thing. I know my motor is a little undercammed, but it's running very good right now, so I'm going to think for awhile before I change the cam (I'm in no hurry).

Anyway, now for answers to your questons.

1) SDPC Vortec heads - about $450 (I think), Manley valves (stock size) $100, screw in 3/8 studs $125, pocket port and/or bowl blend - $125, TPIS springs - $125 = aprox. $925. (Yea - I know that's a lot for a set of Vortec heads).

2) I have done no additional port matching from the runners to the manifold, or from the manifold to the heads. I don't recall the ports being that misaligned, but I don't really know for sure. I was in a hurry to get the car on the road, so I just bolted the stuff together. When I finally do change my cam, I will do this extra port matching.

Later - Mike.......

Mike Crews

Hi Again,

Just one more thought that I forgot to put down. The 170 cc intake runers of the vortecs are small for a stroker motor (or so "they" say). If that is true, extra intake/exhaust duration may not help as much as I would like it to (if the heads are already maxed out).

Mike.........

OMINOUS_87

Mike

Regarding the heads being maxed, I believe they have a little more left in them. People posted in your thread earlier that they were alredy maxed and then you bolted on the SS runners and picked up 10hp more across the range and 20hp more in the RPMs after your peak. That shows by better matching the intake to the upper RPMs the heads just said thank you!!! AS far as posted numbers go Car Craft has 350 Vortec Air Gap motor pushing out 440hp at 5900 with a huge cam CC 230/236 (A litte big IMO). CHP has a 383 Vortec Air Gap motor motor making 416hp at 5600 with a HOT Cam and are talking of giving it a little more cam. ALthough there is not a ton more left in the heads with a little port matching I think the CC 218/224 will do just fine. By the way those magazine numbers were achieved with no port or valve work at all!!!

You mention the Crane 214/220 cam. I have looked high and low and have not read of a combination posting mid-low 12s with that grind. I have pretty much narrowed my choice to the CC 218/224, the EXTREME grind is the latest on the market and there is already a 350 that has hit mid 12s with it.

Well gotta run for now but will post more later, specifically what my final combo will be.

Mark

Pony Killer

Like anything else, you gotta pay to play, at least a bit.

Rundown on My Vortecs
Cyl heads..... 300 bucks
Bowl work.... 275
3 angle vj.....155
resurface.......60
springs..........45
seals..............22

.......................$857

Since i'm not running a Roller cam I didn't need heavy springs, suitable springs were rather reasonable, without crossing the .500 lift threshold, screw in studs weren't a big issue either.

Running Crane Race gold 1.5 self aligning rockers.

Another 50 bucks got em flow tested.

OMINOUS_87

Below are the published dyno results of 400HP plus Vortec motors. These numbers are of course at the flywheel. None the less these numbers show exactly how far past 5500rpm the vortecs will flow with both 350 and 383 motors that run a healthy cam.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/crate951_etec.html
http://www.carcraft.com/editorial/ar...=text&id=66278
http://www.carcraft.com/editorial/ar...=text&id=81998
http://www.carcraft.com/editorial/ar...=text&id=56978
http://www.carcraft.com/editorial/ar...=text&id=76178

Mark

DownUnderIROC

Regarding the LPE 74211 vs CC 218/224 (XR269HR with 112 LSA)... I ran some simulations in Dyno2000 as well, dont know how accurate they are as I'm not very experienced with this. I used stock L31 Vortecs, 9.5:1 comp, small tube headers with mufflers, 700 cfm TPI, etc. Heres the results....





I'm thinking of either the CC XR269 (as posted above) or the CC XR264 with 112 LSA for my Vortec 350 project. The CC XR264 (112) seems to produce a very similar dyno result to the 74211.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To DownUnderIROC - and anyone else using desktop dyno 2000:


I have read in a few magazines that desktop dyno2000 is very close with the carb'd setups. To get actual or (close) numbers for combo's with the TPI selection, you have to select large tube headers with no mufflers and 1000cfm and thats if you have all the cam specs right and all the flow numbers for the heads right. Now, take that number (peaks of HP and torque) and write it down. Then, change to actual CFM (induction) and switch to single plane induction. Look at the peak HP and torque of both style inductions. The actual crank (flywheel HP) will be between the peaks of both combinations (single plane and TPI). Thats the closest you'll be able to get to the actual crank numbers for a TPI motor.

To DownUnderIROC -

plug in my cam and look at those numbers!!! The specs of my cam should be in this post. If you cant find them, reply to this post and I'll repost them. I should have Rear Wheel dyno numbers in a little over a month if anyone is interested!

Mike (1bad91Z)

DownUnderIROC

Here ya go 1bad.........

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Thanks DownUnder!

To Mike Crews - check out DownUnder's graphs!
Have you made a definite cam selection yet? Oh, and what all equipment / software do you have for PROM burning? Do you burn on EEPROM (rewriteable, I think) blanks or EPROM blanks?

Thanks,
Mike (1bad91Z)

OMINOUS_87

Mike

Back on page 2 some questions surfaced regarding O2 Sensor readings. Well this is what Diacom describes the fluctuation as:

This data field displays the oxygen sensor voltage. The voltage reading is
shown in millivolts (thousandths of a volt). The oxygen sensor is located in
the engine's exhaust manifold and is used to compare the oxygen content of the
exhaust gas mixture with the oxygen content of the outside air. The oxygen
sensor generates a voltage that is proportional to the amount of oxygen it
detects and must be hot before it will start to function properly. The ECM
uses the oxygen sensor data during Closed Loop operation to calculate and
monitor the engine's air/fuel mixture. When the exhaust gas mixture contains
an excess amount of oxygen (lean mixture), the oxygen sensor outputs a low
voltage that is below approximately 450 millivolts. When the exhaust gas
mixture contains little oxygen (rich mixture), the oxygen sensor outputs a high
voltage that is above approximately 450 millivolts. During normal operation,
the output voltage from the oxygen sensor should rapidly vary back and forth
between approximately 100 and 900 millivolts.

Anyway I know it is an old question but hey, all I do now is read on how to program my chip and read scan tools.

Some Life.

Mark

Mike Crews

Hey Guys,

DownUnder - thanks for those graphs. They seem to support the dreaded theory that "bigger is better." My wimpy little LPE211 cam just can't hang (at least on paper).

Mike (1bad91Z) - Yea, I was looking at those graphs. I have not made a definite decision yet. Info like this conufses me a bit. I have it in my mind (from most of the stuff that I have read and heard), that I would not run over 220* of intake duration in a LTR car. It will help me to see how your car runs (give me some real life data - instead of theory). I know that 89Raptor talked to the CompCams people and they told him to keep his intake duration down (but another tech might tell someone else somethng diferent). He was going to buy a bigger cam (I don't know which one), but they talked him out of it (so he bought the CC218/224). Anyway, I'm kind of like OMINOUS 87. I just have not seen a car run good numbers at the track with any cams except the few that I have looked at (the LPE 211 & 219 cams, and the CC218/224). I'm sure that those cars are out there (using other/bigger cams), but I just have not been able to get any good info on them. I also know that TPIS has several cams with some "large" durations. I also have many dyno sheets, but it's hard to compare/use those (they recommended a "large" one for me). I also have a lot of desktop dyno info, but I'm not really sure about the validity/accuracy of it either. I guess that I'm suffering from information overload. I'm really looking forward to see what your car is going to do on the dyno (as I'm sure you are too!!). Plus I want hear about the the everyday "drivability" of your car.

This kind of info exchange is why I like this board so much.

I don't burn my own proms. Dean at Street & Performance does mine. I have a great realationship with him, and he does great work. I highly recommend him. I have considered getting into burning proms, but that's another project that I will have to find time for.

Later,

Mike.............

Mike Crews

More thoughts on this "cam thing".,

The cam must be matched to the engine rpm capabilites. I don't see any point in trying to push a TPI motor much past 5500-ish, as it just can't get enough air to be effective. So I need to make sure that my cam is not making big power much past 5500. Generally, (my understanding is...) as the duration @.050 goes up, the operating rpm range of the cam goes up. I don't want to lose any (or at least not too much) bottom end rpm capability. When (if) I switch cams. Plus, more duration could possibly mismatch my cam and my converter.

OMINOUS 87, I see that you ave a 2600 Vigilante like me. Did the folks at P.I. say that 2600 was good with a 218 @ .050? What rear end ratio are you running?

Mike (1bad91Z), what torque converter (and stall) are you running?

Thanks - Mike......

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Mike Crews - I'm no longer using a torque converter. I running a '96 model Borg-warner T-56 six speed manual. I've been told by a few machine shops that my cam compliments my heads pretty well!

Head specs: L31 vortec heads, ported/polished, stainless 1.94/1.56 valves, radius cut valve job, upgraded springs (they came off of a 500+hp dirt track car).

Back to the cam, my cam will make power upto 6000rpm's (yes, I know that exceeds the limits of the intake, however, the lift is perfect for where and how much my heads flow. With all the mods that I have done to my intake, I'm not worried about running out of air.

Intake specs: Vortec TPI base (mildly ported and semi-siameesed, ported SLP SS runners, upper plenum runner exits ported and semi-siamesed (port matched to ported runners), TB openings port matched to Holley twin 58mm CNC TB.

I'm expecting peak power to be between 5,500-5,800 rpms
Doing all that will sacrifice a small amount of torque, but will well reward you in HP, especially in the higher r's!

I would recommend a Vigilanty (precision) 2800 stall for this setup, if you must run an automatic. That converter would compliment the cam and whole combination very nicely. I would also recommend at least a 3:42 gear as well.

This setup would be just as streetable as your motor.
Hope this helps!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Mike Crews

Hey Mike,

My bad - I looked in your sig and realized that you have the T-56. Having a manual is so much more fun. My ZR-1 has a 6 speed, and is a blast to drive/shift. However, I have found that the auto sure is easy to drive at the track.

Thanks for all the info. I've been doing a lot of looking and researching the last few days, and I'm starting to zero in on some conclusions. I starting to think that my engine just might support your XR276 cam. It's a toss up betwen the XR276 and the XR269.

Is there a cam in between those two with like a 220* intake duration @ .050? I'll decide in the next week or so.

Thanks Again - Mike.....

DownUnderIROC

Please remember that the graphs I posted up are only theoretical, I have absolutely no idea how accurate they are or whether you will get the same results in "real life" with these cams.

This is a great discussion, I'm also trying to select a cam at the moment for my LTR Vortec 350. Keep it coming! I think I'll most likely go with the XR264 or maybe the XR269.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Mike Crews - what all have you done (porting wise) to your intake? If you are willing to do all the porting that I did to mine, your motor will LOVE the XR276, heck, I'm running it in a 355ci. Stroker motors need a little more duration! About street and performance that burns your chips, do they happen to be in Houston? What are the full cam specs of the XR269 (lift, duration @.50 and duration at .006 tappet, lobe sep angle and intake centerline)? I'll plug it into my combo in Desktop dyno and I'll post the results.

OMINOUS_87

The infamous cam selection post again. What to do what to do!!! It is so damn temping to put the CC 224/230 grind into the 383, it is actually a no brainer when running a carb setup. I must admit here that I am in the same boat as Mike, this is my first big engine build and to make it worse it is using an LTR setup: the hardest to tune intake ever deveopled and put on the face of the earth. The problem with the LTR is that although the HP Curve is near linear in nature due to the high torque and low rpm it suffers tremendously when torque is decreased across the powerband. The term itself Tuned Port indicates that the intake itself was designed for a specific or "tuned" reason: that being to force an intake charge at low and mid rpm levels.

MY THOUGHTS ONLY:

1. Why is there a plenum? From what I understand the plenum is in place in order to supply the needed intake charge for the runners to feed from when ramming air at the heads. When the capacity of the plenum is exeded power also dramaticly falls off as the engine is then forced to suck through 22 inches of runner, a huge plenum, and finally the TB. If this is true it states that there is a direct relationship between the duration of a cam and the ability of the plenum to supply air for the intake charge.
2. Why are there 22 inches of runner? Well rumor has it that this intake was designed to feed a 305s demands but at the same time keep all the power down low as to make it as steetable as possible. Due to the lack of low end grunt out of the 305 22 inches of runner were designed to force charge the heads with high velocity and in turn keep the specs of the cam streetable to meet emmisions with a 5 speed manual transmission, from what i have read.
3. MAF limitations? This applies to Mike and I specifically. It is to bad Warbird has been gone as he is the only one who could further provide information on this topic. With his 383 CC 218/224 setup he states that he is getting a reading from the MAF of 230 g/sec at 5200rpm. I can only imagine that at 5500rpm he has exceded the ability of the computer to properly monitor the amount of air the engine is actually pulling. By increasing the cams duration I can also only imagine that the 255 g/sec threshold would be met earlier and the ability to properly tune the fuel curve may work against the higher HP levels that the greater duration is supposed to deliver. But if thats the case fuel pressure could be added to compensate with the negative side being that the engine would rich while not under WOT.

Anyway IMHO as more cam is added to my situation the plot thickens and many other things need to be considered. Yet when the dyno results are read that I previously linked to they show that the Vortec heads will easily flow the CC 230/236 cam in a 383 minus the LTR setup and computer of course. IMHO a cammed out 383 setup is right on the brink of exceding the stock 165 computer and LTR intake design if not already crossing over that line. So the real question comes down to what are the actuall parts that will keep this beast right on the edge without losing its balnce. Since this is an unknown it only makes this conversation that much more interesting!!!

Mike

BTW I would be interested to know how your chips are being tuned. If the MAF tables are being modded it may explain why your BLMs are more in line but why your ETs are down with your later revisions. The only reason I ask is that you earlier stated that your newest revisions are tuned for increasing the amount of fuel under 2000rpm. I may have missed it but what chip were you running for your 12.3 pass? Crews6? Anyway you have a kick butt chip to be turning 12.3s with MAF or maybe its just your nicely matched combo!!!

What do you all think?

Mark

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Ominous_87 - you pose a very valid point (MAF ECM) I did not take that into consideration as I am running a (speed density - MAP ECM).
As you all know too well, it's expensive to go fast! Mike Crews, did you ever think about going speed density?
I'm only retaining a custom chipped stock ECM just to keep the car running for a short time until I get my DFI setup.

Mike Crews - unless you want to go speed density or DFI, I would probably recommend the XR269HR-12 in your scenario, it's a good choice! I cant wait to see your results, you and all of us will be impressed, I'm sure!!

As for me, I will post the probably unsatisfying results of my combo before I go digital and I'll dyno the car again after I make the necessary adjustments in the Cal-map program (DFI).
Man, I cant wait to go digital!!

Mike (1bad91Z)

camarojoe

I just have not seen a car run good numbers at the track with any cams except the few that I have looked at (the LPE 211 & 219 cams, and the CC218/224).

Thought I'd add a little to this thread and become a part of history, it is the longest thread ever, right? Anyway, I think you said it yourself, Mike, that the 219 cam may be your best choice. There are too many corvettes that run this cam as mentioned earlier in this post that flat out fly. One guy I can think of right now goes by Beachbum. He's got a 383 with a 219 cam, Superram, and ported Dart heads. He's running mid 11's at aroung 116mph. There are also a lot of 350's running right around 12 flat with this cam and good heads like yours. I'd consider getting this cam and maybe think about going with the superram intake instead of nitrous if I were you. To hell with nitrous is what I say, at least until I see how my motor runs with the new setup . I think you'd be really happy going mid 11's without the hassel of the bottle while still keeping your car street-friendly, because of the mild cam. If you ever plan to switch to a carb, I'd get real radical with the cam though.

One more thing, guys. Can anyone run Mike's combo with a 219 cam through DTop Dyno? Just for my curiousity.

Mike Crews

Hey Guys,

Mike (1bad91Z) - I have done no porting to any of my intake stuff except the usual plenum porting, and also matching the plenum to the upper, siamesed potion of the AS&M SS runners (involved cutting them out into a "B" shape like TRAXION did to his). Everything else was bolted in "as is." Street & Performance (Dean) is in North Little Rock, Arkansas (the Chip/Electronics group). The engine group is in Mena, Arkansas. It sounds like the 218 is right on the edge (maybe the "balance/edge" that OMINOUS 87 mentioned).

XR269 specs for your DD- 218/224, .495/.503 (1.5s), 112 LSA, 269/276 @.006, 108 intake centerline. All I have on the LPE 219 is 219/219, .525/.525 (1.5s), 112 LSA (that's all that's in the LPE book).

OMINOUS 87 - Great post (again !!!) I keep forgetting about this whole MAF limitation thing. As I recall, I run about 210 - 215 gps @ 5500 according to my Tech1. 89 Raptor had asked for for my MAF numbers. It sounds like anything bigger than the 218/224 will max out the computer at 255 gps. I don' think that I'm interested in switching to to SD (I don't think). Dean and I tuned the chips by focusing on 5 parameters (after the idle was fixed). We looked at the Block Learns, Fuel Integrator, Knock Signal, MAF, and TPS voltage. I took these readings with my Tech 1 every 1000 rpm from 1000 - 6000 rpm (took two people). It was really pretty simple, just took some tweaking. Actaully, my part throttle TPS voltage is still too low for Dean, but I can't seem to get it any higher (but FULL throttle is OK at 4.5). I am still running Crews6. I will run 7 & 8 again this fall, to see again it they make any difference, but I have tried them both in the past, and they have been a bit slower. The guys that does my dyno runs says that Crews6 has best the AFR ratio, even though the Tech 1 says it's a bit lean. I talked to Dean at S&P Friday, and he told me that 89 Raptor is also running Crews6 in his car right now, but he has not heard anything else from him in ahwile.

Hey Camaorjoe - This is a long thread isn't it!! Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Anyway, I just don't know if the vortec exhaust ports flow well enouh to handle the 219 (single pattern), although I have never heard of a car running bad with that cam (or with the 211 for that matter). What do you think about the exhaust flow? The LPE cams just always seem to run well no matter what they're in. I thought that I read an old post by TRAXION where he says the 219 is NOT a good choice for heads like mine. I'm going to stay LTR for now, as I am determined to get into the 11s with it (just because). And you're right - no nitrous. I'm staying all motor (just because).

Later - Mike,,,,,,,,

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To all - a hypothetical question - If my car goes 11's all motor with the XR276HR-12 would you guys think about using it in your vortec motors? (kidding, by the way!)

I'm shooting for high 11's with the chipped stock ECM and shooting for low 11's with the ACCEL GenVII DFI.

Desktop Dyno2000 shows:

XR276HR-12:
435 HP @ 5500 rpm's
465 ft. lbs @ 4000 rpm's

XR269HR-12:
426 HP @ 5500 rpm's
471 ft. lbs @ 4000 rpm's

LPE 219:
376 HP @ 5000 rpm's
481 ft. lbs @ 3000 rpm's


These flywheel horse power specs are for a 355ci TPI motor with ported vortec heads (I inputed the flow numbers from my heads from when I had them flow benched) and 10:1 compression. I can e-mail you guys the dyno files (for those with desktop dyno2000) if you'd like.

It seemed the XR276 made more HP across the whole RPM range. However, it did not make as much torque as the other cams, but 400+ ft lbs. from 2000-6000 rpms is plenty, I think!

For Mike Crews - 10:1 383ci specs with vortec heads
XR276HR-12:
434 HP @ 5500 rpm's
492 ft. lbs @ 4000 rpm's
:hail:

XR269HR-12:
428 HP @ 5000 rpm's
500 ft. lbs @ 3500 rpm's
(I think we have a winner!)

:lala:

LPE 219:
375 HP @ 4500 rpm's
516 ft lbs. @ 2000 rpm's
(man, that motor could pull stumps out of the ground!)
I will probably use the LPE 219 in my truck!

Anyways, I think the XR269 would run better in your 383ci / MAF ECM setup than the XR276.
And as always, good luck with the new combo!

Mike (1bad91Z)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

T0 Mike Crews - oh yea, I forgot to say all you need for your 11 second pass is some Hooker long tubes and 3:42 gears! You really dont need to mess with the motor! Just my $.02

Mike (1bad91Z)

camarojoe

Mike Crews,
The post being long is definately a good thing. About the exhaust on your heads, I think stepping up to a bigger rocker ratio on the exhaust side will help. I'd also port the hell out of your exhaust runners on the vortecs. Long tube headers would help, but not as much as if you were using a highflow intake.

Are you sure the dyno program is working accurately?? There's no way thatXR269HR-12 makes that much more power than the 219 cam, I don't care what setups the cams in. Is it the split duration, cause the LPE cam has more lift and the same intake duration? Please elaborate on these numbers.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Camarojoe - the XR269 has more exhaust duration than the LPE cam. Also, you can ask any knowledgable machine shops, a split pattern cam WILL make more power in a TPI (Long runner) motor than a single pattern cam. Yes, I do believe the numbers are pretty close!

Mike

SpeedJunkie

1Bad91Z- Would the Hot cam also work as good?
I belive its 218/228 and .525 lift I think. I just keep leaning towards this cam for my 383

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

I don't mean to rain on the cam parade, but when I ran the numbers through engine analyzer, I got 5 more hp with the 218-224, 10 more hp with the LPE 219 and hot cam, and 14 more hp with the 224-230, all over the existing LPE 211. I think DD2000 is a little optimistic when calculating, vs EA.

To me it's a crap shoot. There are guys on z28.com with LT1's running low 12's high 11's with the 211 cam, so it can make power. I ran the 219 cam in a superram car, and it pulled like a **** all the way through the powerband. The 211 and 219 were designed to make cylinder pressure, which makes torque, as will any other short duration cam, but what makes those cams unique is the aggressive lobes with regards to the amount of lift they offer. I'd still pick the 219, but that's my personal choice, since that's the only cam I've run out of the group being mentioned. Now I wish I hadn't sold it.

I wouldn't worry about the MAF limitation if I were you guys, it's not as big of a deal as some would think. With my old 383, SR, 219, ported AFR combo, I'd hit the 255 mark at 4400 rpm, and during scanner recordings, it would stay at 255 from that rpm on up. There are guys running 11's with 'old' MAF's like ours, so I don't think the sensor and ecm is the problem, just putting a good combo together is.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To SpeedJunkie - I need all of the specs of the hot-cam to plug it in to DD2000. I need intake/exhaust lift, duration @ .050 and duration at .006 tappet, lobe seperation angle, and intake centerline angle. I've only seen one 3rd gen run good with the hot-cam and that was a 11:1 TPIS mini-ram car with afr heads. I've seen plenty Not run good with that cam. Just my $.02.

Mike (1bad91Z)

Mike Crews

Hey Guys,

Mike, I think that your're right on - it looks like the XR269 is the winner. Thanks for all your desktop dyno numbers. A while back 89Raptor ran my LPE 74211 through his desktop, and he gave me numbers of 373 hp/514 tq. These are almost identical to the 219 numbers from your desktop, so that must point to the fact that the split duration cams make more power in the LTR cars. I thought that the 219 would do mcuh better.

IMHO, just a switch to a different set of headers and gears would not give me - 0.4 seconds. I can't imagine that long tube headers would flow THAT much better that the 1 & 3/4 SLPs (maybe a little). Plus, gears and headers would cost much more than a cam swap. I ran a 3.73 for a while, but it was too much gear for the TPI. I picked up 3 mph and .05 secs by going back to the stock 3.27. I wish they made a 3.08 gear for the 9 bolt - I'd put it in. With all the tq I'm making, my car could pull the lower (numerically) gear with no problem.

Camarojoe, I think (I hope) that the SDPC Vortec intake qualifies as a hi-flow intake. The intake runners measure 1.770", much larger than stock (I measured mine before installation). I would try 1.6s on my exhaust, but my springs only lift to .540 (for me 1.6 = .560 lift) - too bad for me, but .560 is probalby too much for a vortec head anyway.

Well, now I have the "luxury" of sitting back and waiting for you and OMINOUS 87 to tell us what your "real-life" numbers turn out to be. As soon as you run better than 12.39, then I'll know what cam to buy . (Just Kidding)

Later - Mike.........

Mike Crews

Hey 89gta383,

Are you saying that you only got +5 hp with the 218, +10 hp with the 219, and + 14 with the 243 (all over the 211 baseline)? That's quite a difference from the DD2000 #s. How would/could you explain the difference between the two programs (EA & DD2000)?

Mike..........

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

I don't know about DD, but in EA, you can adjust about any engine parameter there is. I don't know if you can change intake runner length in DD, but I can in EA. EA also has a choice of stock TPI, superram, and miniram intakes, and from what I've read, DD uses a single plane intake?

camarojoe

Speedjunkie,

I don't know what kind of intake you're going to be running, but you won't want any kind of LTR setup with the hot cam at least on a 350. My car is proof of that. Even with the superram on top my engine stops breathing well at 5500 rpm's. The cam starts to pull hard at 4000 rpm's and peaks at around 6500 rpm's. I can actually feel the power curve drop when the engine hits just over 5500 rpm. With the stock plenum and runners my car peaked at about 4700 rpm's which totally negated the cams ability. The lt-4 hot cam is made for a short intake runner-style intake eg. a carb setup, lt-1 or miniram intake. There are a few guys that run great with this cam with LTR's , but they have well tuned engines and good flowing heads. The hot cam is just not optimal for a LTR setup. This is why I'm getting ready to put the 219 cam in, because it promotes more midrang power, which is where the superram works great at.

Mike Crews,

Whenever I say high-flow intake, I mean anything but a stock style LTR setup. Yeah, you can have high-flowing aftermarket runners and call them high-flowing runners, but it's still not a high flowing intake. You can still make a LTR setup go fast, proof being your car, but I think you're really about maxed out with your setup mainly because of the intake. I think the cam you have now is perfect for a LTR setup. The reason I'd think about the 219 cam is because it's designed for the superram, which your intake may be close to in terms of flow #'s. I've also seen quite a few 383 vettes with this cam and Long tube runners running in the 11's. I'm sure whatever cam you decide to go with will be a good choice, but the fun part is knowing if you could have gone even faster with something else. Thats why all of us enjoy tearing our engines down after find out we picked the wrong parts. Or wait maybe I'm speaking for myself. :lala: As far as coming close to your times, it will be awhile for me. I'm pulling my engine next week.

SpeedJunkie

Camarojoe- See this is my dilemna Right now I have a 350 block with vortec heads sitting in my garage. Came out of a boat so the heads need to be redone anyway. But I gonna get a 383 kit but for heads and intake its splits into 2 routes
1- I keep the vortecs, get the SDPC votec base, some big runners and siamses and whatever. This way I could go with the XR269
2- I get some world products heads(which after the money ill have to invest in the vortecs will be close to some sportsmans) get the lt1 intake and maybe get the hotcam.

See I just don't know what to do.Its kinda each way evens out in price. It will be daily driven but i could have a great daily driver with the LTR setup with a ton of touqer(I can't spell right now) but also it would be nice to scream up top with the hot cam and lt1 intake

So what do you guys think?

Oh by the way I fricking love this thread. You have no idea how much I've learned about a engine through you guys!
:hail: :hail: My Mentors :hail: :hail:

87Formula391S/C

iTrader: (1)

I agree this is a great thread.have you guy's heard or know anything about the new edelbrock base an runners for the tpi setup..

Sammy

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

89Gta383 - Thanks! Even you show that my cam will make more HP!! Just bustin' you guys!

To answer Desktop dyno related questions: desktop dyno2000 does have the "selection" to select tuned port injection, single plane, dual plane, any kind/style of blower with or without intercooler, exact heads flow numbers for all ranges of lift, all and every cam specs, etc.....

Where the confusion is: a few magazines complained that actually flywheel dyno numbers were higher than desktop dyno predicted (only for the TPI selection). They said that the actual numbers were closer if you switched it from TPI to single plane. Also, the numbers I posted for both cubic inched 355 and 383, I inputed the flow number for what my ported vortec heads flow- benched at, (Your Vortec heads may not flow as good or maybe even better, never know unless you flow bench them!)

Why I believe DD2000 is pretty darn close: A friend of mine designed a motor on DD2000. It is a Ford 351 Windsor bored .030, big cam, TF heads, etc.... (It's a race motor). DD2000 said it would make 543HP at 6,200 rpm's. When he had the motor built, the machine shop engine dyno'd his motor and it made (no bullsh*ting) 543HP at 6,400 rpm's. Even though it was off 200 rpm's, it still made the exact HP!!! Although, torque numbers were off. DD2000 was happy on the numbers by 19 ft lbs. (he made 516 ft lbs on the engine dyno) DD2000 showed he should make 535 ft lbs. He is running a single plane Victor Jr. with a speed demon 850 carb.

To Mike Crews - No problem for numbers! The reason why I think Long tubes and 3:42's would give you an 11 sec pass: first, there are few people on this board that switched from 1 3/4 shorty's to long tubes and went 2 tenths quicker. Second, 3:42's are not 3:73's. 3:73's may just be overkill for your setup due to the 3.06 first gear ratio in your tranny. 3:42's would just give it a little more and put you at a higher rpm though the traps (a little higher in your rpm band). question: what rpm's are you turning when you hit the finish line? That would determine what the best gear would be. But yea, a cam would be cheaper!!!!
I still feel your 383 needs to "exhale" a little more than shorty's though! (IMO)
I think it's a VERY wise choice to go with the XR269 cam, it's still a pretty healthy cam! When did you plan on doing the cam change?

It's too bad some of you guys dont live arround the Houston area! We'd have some bad-*ss 3rd gens running arround, tearing up the streets!

:rockon:

Mike (1bad91Z)

OMINOUS_87

87Formula391S/C

Regarding the base, edelbrock is the primary manufacturer of TPI bases. Not only do they sell the product under their own name but they also make the TPIS Bigmouth base and the Scoggin Dickey Vortec base. The Bigmouth base has a some additional material removed at the runner openings but definitely not worth the money considering you are going to want to port match all the openings to your runners anyway. The Vortec base is different because it is designed specifically for the new style GM Vortec heads or Edelbrock E-TEC heads which have a different bolt pattern and intake runner height. Accel is the only company that offers an alternative to the edelbrock unit but they are all pretty much the same and flow allot more than the stock unit.

The runners on the other hand are a topic that is a bit more controversial. Search for "runners" on the board and be prepared to read for days about peoples opinions. The cars that are posting the fastest track times all run AS&M products though.

Hope this helps.

Mark

madmanups

I'm a college student with no time on my hands to do much engine building, not only that, I don't know anything about it. So my L98 broke down, all my friends have 97 or higher ss's. What am I to do? Well I decided to order an engine from Scogg N Dickey with the vortec base and heads Don't ask how much it cost cuase it makes me cry. I know I could have gotten something cheaper and maybe faster for less money but I don't want the hassle of doing it myself at the moment. Anyway, I did put the motor in myself, everday after work. Here are my specs.

350 Small block(rated at 335 hp)

ZZ4 Camshaft

Duration
208/221

Lift
.500/544

11 degree lobe center

Edelbrock TES Headers
RT Hi Flow cat
Flowmaster
Accel wires and coil

I have no clue what those numbers mean but I feel like the cam is mild compared to what you guys have.

Here is my question(s)

The car doesn't feel like 335 horses to me. My old motor seems almost as fast. I think I need some serious tuning and some serious suspension work. I have Base timing at 8, but I will put it to 10 tonight. Every other peice on the car is stock. I want to beat my friends 2001 Z28. What can I do to improve performance, driveability, and hp? What should I do suspension wise? I don't have money for it now, but what can I do head wise and runner wise, keep in mind I don't know a lick about altering heads. Any suggestions of anytype will be appreciated.

Oscar

OMINOUS_87

Madman

What is the part number for that crate motor?

Mark

madmanups

Yea, I fogot to say that my car is an 88 Iroc Z, auto, 3.27 gears(I think)

Mike Crews

Camarojoe - I'm with you now. Yea, I agree that any LTR setup would not be "hi-flow" as compared to a short runner (LTI or miniram) setup. You pose another question that I have been pondering for some time. I think that you are right about my setup flowing close to what a Superram setup flows. However, the intake to exhaust ratio of the vortec heads is what scares me about the 219 cam. Most of the Superram cars are running like vette heads, AFRS, etc - these all have much higher I/E ratios that the vortecs (some have as high as a 90% I/E ratio!) , so they can support the single pattern cam. The vortecs just don't exhaust very well as compared to some of the other heads. I'm very confident that the 219 would run great in my car, I just don't know if it would run that much better than the 211 - but you never know . Like I said before - I have NEVER seen a car run poorly with the 219 cam, and I've seen a lot of cars with the 219 (camaros and vettes). And yes - I'm like you in the respect that I love to find out what I could have done better, then take it apart fix it (when time & money permit).

1bad91Z - Where can you by the Hooker long tubes, and how much are they (maybe Summit or JEGs)? Did you have yours coated? How well did they fit into your engine compartment? Hell, I'd swich headers in a minute if I thought that I could pick up a solid 0.2 secs. I'll have to look into this on the board and find those guys you are talking about. I have to work on some TPS problems that I'm having, then I want to see what my car will run in the cooler weather with all my recent tweaking, this way my before and after numbers won't be too skewed by ambient temperature. Then I'll start working on the cam swap - probably in 60 - 90 days (that would be a good Christmas present from me to me).

Later - Mike.........

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Hey Mike, where ya been? You can get the Hooker long tubes from summit (call for current pricing) 1-800-230-3030. I bought my headers from summit a few months back. I ordered coated hooker 1 3/4 super comp long tubes (hooker coats them) and yes, just as good as Jet-hot!! I paid $575.00 for them. Just ask for Hooker coated 2210's. (2210-C) is the part number I think, but check with summit on that. With those headers and the mufflex TPI-Y , you'll be 2 tenths quicker for sure over the shorty's!! You never said what rpm you cross the finish line at? That would determine the best gear for the 1/4 mile. And dont get the LPE 219 for your setup (single pattern cams will make less HP in our style setup's vs the split pattern cams) The LPE 219 might make a little more torque, but at the expense of top end ponies! Besides, your motor makes torque by the boat-load!! Let me know what rpm you cross the traps at.

Mike (1bad91Z)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Mike Crews - I forgot to mention, if you want to know what a pain in the b*tt it is to put those headers in, check out the topic called: Hooker Long Tube Headers (in the Exhaust forum). It should be close to the top of the exhaust forum. I have a few posts in that topic. But, dont get discouraged, it just takes a little patience and some will and is WELL worth the results!! I would do that job over again for the kind of gain I got!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Mike Crews

Hey Mike,

I've just been working a lot of late hours lately. Just have not had the opportunity to get on-line as much. I went to the track Thursday night and Saturday night. I ran mostly in the mid to high 12.4s. I was playing with my TPS voltage to see if that would change anything (it didn't). I ended up with it too high, and the car kept setting a code (21). So I fixed that, then my alternater "exploded" on the next run, but it has a lifetime replacement, so I was able to replace it for free. Anyway, I cross the line right at 5000 now. I think the five speed BW 9 bolt cars came with a 3:45 rear end. I would have to find one of those gears to put in my car is I was going to change again (I think that's all that is availavle for the BW 9 bolt).

Thanks for the tip on the Hooker long tubes. I'm going to look into those.

Later - Mike.........

Mike Crews

Hi Again,

Mike, I read through the Hooker Long Tube posts that you mentioned. I have several questions about using the Hookers.

1) Can I keep my stock starter?
2) Did you have any issues with the vortec heads/plugs?
3) Will the Hookers work with my Spohn torque arm (700R4)?
4) Not to sound dumb, but what are the K member and control arms that are referrred to in the posts?

Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks/Later - Mike.......

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I dont mean to butt in on your thread, and its a great thread, I have been following it for months. 500 ft/lbs at the crank is sweet, especially out of a TPI motor. :hail:

The reason I was replying is about the hooker LT. I put them in my car when I put the engine in. My engine bay was empty when I put them in and I also have a non A/C heater box. I had no problem putting them in. They actually fit better than I expected. There were no problems at all on the driver side, its not hitting anything.

On the passenger side these were my problems.
I had to get a mini starter. There was no way a by stock starter was going to fit.
I have a 700R4 and it clears the tranny fine. Howver with a spohn torqe arm, I have read the headers will fit, but you might run into some problems if you run the mufflex system(i'd double check, dont take my word for it. I have a pic of the mufflex system with a spohn T/A. let me know if you want it, i dont want to post it and take up more room.

The number 8 tube rubs against the frame where the control arms bolts to, its hard to explain, I can get a pic if you want. I tried to adjust it some, but its almost impossible.

The mufflex y pipe is 275 bucks, and there 3.5/4in single exhaust system is close to 650bucks. and after you buy the long tubes, have them coated thats almost another 600 dollars. thats almost 1500 dollars in exhaust. You could have a shop manderal bend a y pipe to your existing cat back or run true duals, and i am sure your car is super nice, and I wouldnt want to put them on there.

I talked to a guy at bowling green a few years ago at the Fbody day, he had a 92 formula and he put hooker LT in it, he said it was the biggest PITA, and that he should have just pulled the engine to put them in, he said it would have been easier. I didnt think putting them in was that big of deal because they went in with the engine.
Just my .02
Jason

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Hey Mike, dont worry about the questions. Advice is free, too bad parts are not!

You should be able to be your stock starter, there is a little more room for a bigger starter on mine (I'm using a T-56 starter obviously). If by some chance it's too tight, you would just have to use a mini-starter (summit brand to save $$$).

No issue's with plugs, it's kind of a pain to change plugs, but it's possible with a wrench (there's a few you can get to with a socket, but not many). Just be sure to wrap your spark plug wire boots in heat sheild tape. (You need all 90* boots)

You should be able to use the Spohn arm if you have a completely custom y-pipe made. I had to hack up corners on my SPD T-56 x-member to get my Mufflex Y-pipe to fit and hang a little higher, you may have to do the same (But the exhaust shop did all that engineering and your exhaust shop should be able to do the same for you).

The K-member that I'm refering to is the engine cradle that the front A-arms are attached to. Also, if you are running a factory oil cooler, that will now be unusable (I had to hack off the outer side pipe where the hose attaches. That needs to be done for clearance, otherwise the driver side header flange will not sit flush with the head). You can hack the outer pipe of the oil cooler boss off, or run a oil filter boss for a non-oil cooler equiped small block chevy.

If you are crossing the line at 5000, what gear are you in? third gear right?

Mike (1bad91Z)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To All - when I did the hooker lt install, I had the motor out, the headers laying in the engine bay (tied off to the outer sides) then I dropped the motor in while setting the headers in place. If that makes any sense! I have AC and a factory equiped oil-cooler, and I have a T-56, so thats why I had the issues that I ran into on the Hooker LT post in the exhaust forum.

To LilJayV10 - My number 8 tube (the removeable tube) didn't rub or touch anywhere. It was the number 7 tube that was up against the A-arm on the driver's side (hence the reason why I had to cut the corner off of the A-arm)

I also had to dimple one of the primary's on the passenger side (I forget which one) due to bumping up against the k-member causing the header flange not sitting flush with the head.

I had to lift the motor up several times to custom clearance all the area's that I mentioned in the Hooker LT post in the exhaust forum. But believe me, it's well worth the results!!

I'm still waiting on a couple of parts, but I should have the car running again by the end of October. When I do, I'll bring it to the exhaust shop for them to check for leaks and when it's up on the lift, I'll take a bunch of exhaust pics that should answer alot of the Hooker long tube - t-56 - mufflex - x-member questions.

Mike (1bad91Z)

Mike Crews

LilJayV10 - Thanks for the compliment. It sounds like putting the long tubes in with the engine out is the best way to go. Maybe I'll pull the engine to do the cam swap, then do the long tube headers at the same time (I'm not totally sure yet).

Mike (1bad91Z) - Thanks for all your answers to my questions. I have an SLP Y-pipe right now, and it works fine with the Spohn torque arm. I assume that I will need a new Y-pipe with the LT headers. My car is not equipped with an oil cooler, so that won't be an issue. Also, you're right - I cross the line in third gear (at around 4900 - 5000 rpm).

Later - Mike.......

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Mike Crews - No prob! I have a couple more questions for you though. About what does you car weigh? And, When you dyno'd the car, what rpm did it make peak HP and what rpm did it make peak torque. Also, at what rpm do you launch the car?

You will need a custom y-pipe, but that's no big deal to a good exhaust shop! And it is ALOT easier to install the LT's with the motor out. Doing the Long Tubes along with the cam when the motor's out would be the way to go. Have you made a final decision on what cam your swapping in?

LEt me know!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Mike Crews

Hey Mike,

My car weighs 3705 with me in it (and 1/4 tank of 100 octane gas). I weigh 190, so the car is about 3515 without me in it. I launch the car (power brake) at 1700-1800 rpm. The front tires slide if I give the car any more rpm. I do a "good" burnout with Drag radials at 17#, and have the front tires (GSCs) at 45#.

Peak HP rpm - 5180
Peak TQ rpm - 3450

I have not made a "final" decision on the cam yet, but the HR269 is my current favorite. I'm sure that I'll still look around a bit, and also wait for you and OMINOIUS 87 to post dyno results.

Later - Mike.........

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Hey Mike

3515!! Thats a big lady! Is there anything you can do to lighten her up? At 3500 lbs, you need to launch that baby as close as possible to where your motor makes it's peak torque. I would suggest a bigger stall and line lock or trans brake. If the tires dont spin and you hook, you will get a better 60 footer and maybe 2 tenths quicker in the 1/4. 3:42's would be a good choice, I still think you could pick up a few mph at the finish line with them. I think that because you're crossing the traps at 4900 and you need to cross a hair past where your motor is making peak power (5180-5200rpm's). With 3:42's you will probably cross the line at 5300 and right as it's shifting into 4th, hence producing more MPH and reducing ET. Also I still think the XR269 is a great choice for your combo. The longtubes will further benefit your setup as well!

With the XR269 cam, trans brake/line lock, launching at 3200 - 3500 rpm's, long tube headers, and 3:42 gears, Desktop Drag shows your car to be running 11.70's!!!! That's damn near mid 11's for a Naturally aspirated TPI car. Cant beat that with a stick!

Mike (1bad91Z)