mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

thirdgenranch is a dealer for ACC carpet if you want to give your money to an honest person.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I wanted a nice org console from them and got a re-glued, re-dyed (light gray) part. It was also missing anything that could have been unbolted or take off.

I also wanted a nice org set of black cloth seats and got a set that had a pass cover on the driver side. (you can tell because they had sewn up the slot on the back where the plastic *** slides up and down).
Once they started to dry out from being cleaned, they started molding.
The tracks were also very rusty with some of the wire rods rusted in half, like they were under water.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

no kidding?

guess we're not safe from anyone, lol

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

My
I can understand that people feel deceived by what Bruce did. He should have marketed it as his own product as it was not made by Tick. But Hawks is one of the only companies that caters to third gens. They are responsible for reproducing some hard to get parts. Granted, some might need a bit of improvement like the TTA wing, but for the most part they are quality repros. I used a few of their parts on my car and I am picky.
Bruce screwed up and owes Tick something for what he did. But since Tick had no patent on the product Bruce was well within his rights to make his own product - he just shouldn't lead people to believe it is made by Tick.
Hopefully he does not do it in the future and markets his products as his own.
I would still buy from them.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Wow.

Ticks web listing (that I know they didn't rip off anybody):
Bruce's eBay paraphrase:Yes, I have a problem with someone who piggybacks off the hard work of others.

Those of you who say "aww, Bruce is alright in my book!" might just not see the big picture.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

If you do some looking around on the web with other parts, from other companies its the same way.
Those bronze pads are most likey made by 1 company and sold by many others as their own but use the same wording page to page.
This happens a lot.

I know this will fire a few people up but I have waited for awhile to give my 2cents...
What I'm seeing,
Bruce was selling a tilton item that tick had customized with some parts supplied and some custom made for a certain model or 2.
Ticks 2 week lead time is too long for some customers (and trust me it can be, I used to sell/install at a few shops and people want it NOW!)
Bruce had his own parts made like ticks stuff to keep his shelf stocked.
He started shipping his parts without updating his web site and or instructions.(shops do get busy and sometimes forget to that because it really is a pain, won't be the 1st time its ever happened and won't be the last)
Do I think he was trying to sell his stuff as Ticks products? No, I don't think it was a "on purpose" type thing but that's my thought.
Some people called him out about it, most likely due to it being cheaper in price? (my speculation)
He has stepped up, he prolly does owe tick some coin for the massive issue that has transpired but this isn't my turf to say who should do what.
What really makes me is the people that want to send the parts back for a tick part when they both use the same tilton cyl and that's the only part (3cent O ring) that would really fail.

What happened is def on the edge of wrong, Bruce knows it and will hopefully use better judgment down the road.

Bottom line is, everyone makes mistakes in life, if you never have, then your a better man/woman than I'll ever be.
It really is how you handle things after the fact that truly shows what kind of person you are.

I see a LOT of unneeded bashing of companies all over the net these days over the smallest of things and if people keep that up instead of working with the company to resolve the issues properly, well, then these places will not be around at all. (some of the worst is with 3rdgen and C4 vette guys)
It almost seems to me people are always looking for something to complain about and I just get sick of seeing that...

The world is not perfect and never will be.

Edit:
I have read every one elses points and I DO UNDERSTAND both sides (I have been on both sides).
I'm not looking for a debate on what I have posted, everyone clearly has their own 2cents on this issue, these are mine and I'm just trying to see both sides.
We clearly need a bash-wagon smiley..

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

I can understand all and look past some things.

But it is just not just one thing. TONS of customers ( or former customers )
That have bought parts expecting quality and paying for it too, which they do not get. ie. buy parts that are supposed to be New and on arrival they magically become used ?How about the Parts that were broken in such a way that Shipping could not have broken them?

Yes, hawks does have some Hard to find items, or items that no one eles has, But personally I would not buy another thing from them due to ethics, how much they lie, and steal from the customer.BOTH HAVE BEEN DONE ACCORDING TO WHAT PREVIOUS CUSTOMERS HAVE POSTED....

Not only in this thread but In many different forums and threads.

5LTREATR

First of all, we don't have a two week lead time. Not now, not ever. Yes, we had a couple of back orders due to a lack of supply from Tilton themselves. Would someone else building a kit around a Tilton cylinder make sense if the excuse was because of our backorder? No it wouldn't. They would be back ordered as well because we had simply cleared every shelf of that particular Tilton cylinder all over the country.

Were they selling a kit they manufactured as a Tick kit on purpose? Absolutely. We called them and ordered a "Tick" master for ourselves (under cover of course). They never said it was a Hawks kit.... Others have also posted that they ordered "Tick" kits from them. The package came with our install instructions printed straight from our site with our contact info.

We have warrantied cylinders for leaks and damaged seals. We have warrantied kits that had a faulty crimp on the line. We have warrantied kits that had a pin-hole in the cylinders nipple. We have seen stripped threads in the rod from improper installation. We have even replaced cylinders for guys who broke the blue fitting off in the cylinder....more than a few times unfortunately. Basically, there are a lot of things that can go wrong other than a 3 cent o-ring. How many fake kits would have made there way back for a warranty years later until we'd figured this all out anyway?

We have to buy a set number of cylinders each month and its a LOT. We sell a ton of these kits for f-bodies, c5 vettes, c6 vettes, and the GTO. I'd say our warranties are probably less than 1% of total sales....but when you're selling 100+ kits a month problems are bound to pop up. Since we buy such a massive amount on contract with Tilton, Tilton has agreed to warranty even worn out cylinders that really have nothing but normal wear and tear. These cylinders weren't made to last forever, but we're standing behind them forever. Something no one else can or will do. We certainly shouldn't have to stand behind kits that were sold as "ours" when we didn't make a dime off of them.

This was WAY over the edge of wrong. With that said, we'll see how Bruce makes this right. We're giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. I know their website says they are closed for vacation so I think everyone should just lay off until we see how they handle the situation. It is their choice. We have discussed all possibilities with Bruce and depending on how he handles things we are willing to mend our relationship with Hawks and will continue to do business with those guys. You are correct in saying that everyone makes mistakes.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Let's just say I've built T56s for over a decade and have a good grasp on how many stock, bronze and vespel pads are out there.

HTG had multiple vehicle masters made nearly identical to Ticks and they were doing it "just to keep their shelves stocked"? Sorry but no.

I think it's great that their are vendors who specialize in a vehicle and make products available that might not otherwise be on the market; in your case, third-gens. But that's not what is being discussed here.

Simply compare apples to apples. Tick brought forth a product of their own design, lots of people wanted it and it earned it's place in the market. Hawks could have done so with another make of master and basically copied Tick's without making it identical. ***ty, but not shady. And they have enough F-body market that it could have gained ground and been a profitable item; I'm sure they're happy to gained ground in the T56 market. But that's pretty clearly not what happened.

jchaussee

Heres my thought. Awhile back a fella had a priblem with a spoiler orbsomethinf. Cant remember. Anyways bruce himself.came on and bashed on the suse. Not bruces minion, or hosbwife, but him. Sobwith that ibdecided thatvprick will never get a dollar of mine. Probaby never would have becausethey are wayboverpriced . But there were the same people ob thier knees, moutha open sticken up for him. So i say make your own decisian. They will xontinue on. Will youbaid them.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Regardless of a vendors product their reputation is key. Hawks has had more than its share of problems from crap like this and terrible customer support. Do a search with hawks and damaged see what pops up. I've only known a few people to have luck with them and with those odds on top of my personal experience...I won't go through them. Does hawks have a good stand in the market? Yep. Does that make them the only choice? Not so much.

Time after time people post about how hawks is over priced, terrible with shipping and customer service....and won't stand behind their own stuff. I'm pretty positive in the product review section someone posted recently about the t/a spoiler being damaged on arrival from hawks....where have I heard that before?

This is ridiculous. Taking all prior incidents and slapping this on top they're in it deep. Every vendor has its hiccups from time to time but being called out multiple times for imitation products? Hawks is associated with genuine parts not imitations, while the product in question isn't inferior where is the line? If I wanted cheap reproduction parts that are over priced I would go through classic industries. And just one more fun point, Bruce saying it was a backorder issue....now tick obviously has a system which they have pointed out where they call around and collect product when needed so for Bruce to try to side step the issue with an excuse and spinkle an apology on top is pretty shiesty in my opinion.

Looks like its down to local yards and thirdgenranch for me at this point. If anyone wanted to step up in their place and do it right I'm sure they'd take the market by storm right now.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yes, I understood all of this 100% the 1st time I read it.

Edit: I had a nice response to this but since I don't want in this debate any further I deleted it.
Someplace between both of your shops is the truth and I hope things are squared away for both of you and your customers.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I could add my own experiential knowledge, but that would just be piling it on. His word proved to be false - not assigning intent or motive. His words are not true, factually and historically.
I'm not a Hawk's/Bruce basher. If he has a product you need, buyer beware - does not mean stay away. Just be cautious. In a week or so, I'll start a thread here on a new issue with Hawks, and how I resolved it, myself, without Hawks.

With all that being said, I think mags/publications should be very wary of using him for project articles in their publications as his reputation is now highly charged and polarizing. Again, without intent or motive...or even blame, a lot of folks are taking emotional sides. Publications need to be and are aware of these things. They cannot afford to alienate a constituency because of a vendor's polarization. Best just to stay away, no mention, as far as features and articles go.
Aftermarket business is tough and fraught with danger. This forum is a tool to navigate this business. Let's not forget his contributions to this forum as a sponsor of this very tool. Add into all of this the fact that most problems are user error = customer. Vendors & customers ,what's a guy to do?
Don't let others/circumstances dictate how you behave - always reacting. Arrive at some PRINCIPLES, and abide by them as overriding what others do and what circumstances arise. Maybe Bruce can still come to this conclusion.

The measure of a man is not whether or not he makes mistakes, but how one conducts himself after those mistakes have occurred. A principled life is a rare and beautiful thing!

Brian

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I have been buying parts from Bruce for over a decade and have met him, his dad and many folks in his shop over the years. Just like any business not all transactions are going to be perfect, especially when you are a smaller business that deals with lots of suppliers, including making some of your own parts. There have been some slip ups over the years which is pretty inevitable if you sell enough stuff, but I for one have always been a happy customer and been taken care of. I'm grateful to have had them around to help me with my car for this long and will continue to support them in the future as with many of the other 3rd gen suppliers out there trying to keep their doors open. Lord knows I have seen plenty of shadier business practices out there for these cars that resulted in inferior product being produced. TICK is simply trying to protect their product and I commend them for commenting and bringing this out in the open. Beyond that anyone dissastisfied with the product from Hawks should call them to sort it out, and Hawks and TICK should figure out what if any future actions are. I don't see any reason to jump on the band wagon and bash a company that has done a considerable amount for the 3rd gen community for a long time.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Brian - I have to say - you have a good point. Here is another Hawks thread with an issue.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...n-spoiler.html

DeltaElite121

This isn't a "slip-up". For as big as he's gotten, he definitely knows better. When you've got the whole community jumping down your throat about how to run your business on a common sense issue - it's definitely a very large indicator you're doing something wrong and you know it.

I've steered clear of Bruce since the whole headers incident that I remember. This definitely hasn't helped his position in my eyes, and it honestly looks like more of the same thing. Why build an empire simply to ruin it over a few bucks? I know I'd never do that with my business (and never have), heh.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Simply because, third gen guys are always pushing/looking to save a buck or two anyway they can (then will brag about it if they get it waaay cheap). Companies have to scramble to do what they can to lower the prices so they can sell product.

It seems in the last decade or so, everyone is VERY quick to jump on the "best price part they can find" without thinking/researching for themselves how or why it got cheaper. (I do understand the whole saving money when I can also, its nice)
These are, generally, also the same ones to quickly bash a company when they find out the parts have been produced in china for a few years.

I DO respect both companies because of what it takes to produce parts, products and what they provide to our little corner of the hobby.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

Not saying Hawks shouldnt dish out $ to customers and/or tick to make this right. unfortunately, the rest of us will pay for it via increased prices for other parts and services

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

Wow I will still buy from hawksthird gen

redneckjoe

when i was lied to about an "in-stock" item i ordered, about 2 weeks went by. i called them about it and was treated VERY rudely by a woman on the phone. my wife happened to be there while i was on the phone and suggested cancelling the order and getting it else where. the woman said, "oh yea! where else are you gonna get it?" right then and there i decided i didnt need theyre mouth and rude treatment.
hawks will NEVER see a penny of my money and i will stear everyone i can away from them and theyre bad business practices. shame on hawks and this site for keeping them as a sponsor. JMO.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

the only reason i have never purchased from Hawks was due to pricing, most of the prices are absolutely outrageous,

IF they do have a part i can not find anywhere else, i may purchase from them, but selling knock off products and "accidentally" leaving the legit company's contact info is more than a slip up, its bad business

the problem never was that Hawks copied the design of the Ticks product, many companies do this as has been stated, the problem was it was Marketed as a genuine Tick product(read: Warranty is implied), which it is not

changing the info on a website that is already set up like Hawks is not hard, typing up your own Install instructions and putting YOUR contact information on it is also a very simple thing to do and should take no more than 30 minutes to accomplish,these are things that a business with ETHICS take care of before shipping a Product to a customer

GoFaster2

Some days I wish this forum would go away. People wonder why no one wants to build parts for third gen, its cause of the whining customers. I worked for a leading mail order restoration parts company for many yrs and I can not even begin to tell you how many parts I have boxed up and sent overseas to be made. Its called a business because we are in it to make money, and when I can have it made cheaper,faster and in quantities to meets demands we did it. Bad business? Nope, smart business, if Hawks was having supply problems and customers were upset then he had to do what he had to keep them happy. They are his customers, not Ticks. If Ticks is having supply issues then they need to do something about it or someone else will take there market share. Its nothing personal I bet, just business.

GoFaster2

But Hawks really should have written there own instructions and maybe branded as a Hawks exclusive type part. I always wrote are own instructions,pictures and stickers on stuff.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

so, it's 100% smart business to market your product as someone elses and ride on their warranty if it ever fails?

oh yeah? bet they were fun to read

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

you aren't understanding the point,

it's not a matter of the part not being a TICK made part, the problem is it was MARKETED AS ONE, Hawks left Ticks name all over the documentation

IF it was marketed as a HAWKS product with HAWKS documentation and someone wanted to whine about it being a direct copy of a Tick, i would tell them to shove off, Copies are made of almost every successful product you can buy, and this particular one is not copyrighted so Hawks had every right to copy the product itself

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Sounds like you were making cheap chinese knock offs.
There would be no problem with that company's actions as long as they didn't infringe on a patent or market it as the original product.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Cross-post from 'wrong y-pipe' in exhaust section

No one possesses all skill sets. Bruce needs to acquire these, or hire/delegate to someone who has them. It would go a long way to restoring confidence. Shoring up this one area of his business would go a long way. I do want him to succeed.

Question to ponder: Where are the educated customers going?

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Good business ?

Maybe short term but after loads of American jobs are gotten rid of to pad the profit margin....eventually all those laid off folks won't be buying much ?

Think about it.................

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Now say your company has 2,000 products that you have to check on and update, say, once a month. Only 30mins turns into a full time job very quickly, esp if your also working in the shop, buying cars/parts, full/partial builds, shipping/receiving and a general overseeing of day to day operations.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

a company that sells over 2,000 products should have the ability to pay a full time employee to monitor the website, typically it can be included in a secretary's or office managers position so it's not a sole responsibility

Hawks website is laid out very well, updating a single change in a product will in fact only take a few minutes

I manage over 2,000 systems at work, my job is to make sure our inventory stays correct(both count wise and information wise), update any and all information on a system(if the user changes, etc.) install software, manage Printers/faxes, respond to tickets(requests/installs) and handle Warranty requests and damage repairs,

if changes need to be done to a single computer(or product in Hawks case) I get it done the day the change happens, if its over 10 computers(products) it may take me two days, if its hundreds it could take a week, but hawks isn't changing the info on 100 products a day, i wouldn't even think 5 a day happen

I understand running a business is hectic, but a business is a business and is responsible for representing themselves and their products

GoFaster2

Agreed and you have to warranty it not pushing it off on Ticks.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I wish I could start a company, defraud my customers, and they still keep on giving me their business...said every criminal out there.

Some of you guys need to get a clue to what's really going on here.

What Hawks did was CRIMINAL and should be punished as such. You don't believe me...check with an attorney.

From Wikipedia:
In criminal law, fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent, and verb is defraud. Fraud is a crime and a civil law violation, though the specific criminal law definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Defrauding people or entities of money or valuables is a common purpose of fraud.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I kind of expected this thread to turn into name calling and grammatical corrections, I did not expect the grammatical correction of a name calling though. This might be a first! Good one, lol.

I think people that have wanted to say their piece have, it is what it is. Let's not try to make it what it isn't, or get personal with others for their opinions.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

I dont want cheaper and faster if it means Im not buying what I think Im buying. QUALITY over quantity is what I purchase.

And dont pigeon hole the thirdgen community with this whining bs. All businesses have customers that "whine". You cant make everyone happy. It certainly isnt limited to this forum.

The people that are 'whining' have been lied to and were sold a product under a false name. This isnt whining, this is being upset about something that they have every right to be upset about. Just what it is.

Ive never had any issues with Bruce, but I dont recall ever buying anything. I always found it somewhere else cheaper or whatever. I was even in talks with him about buying an LS1 swap package back in the day before I went with a donor car. Just stinks that it had to come to this regardless of the reasons.

J.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I haven't seen one person in this thread that said they bought this product under false pretenses. If they have please speak up as they might have a valid argument. Better yet contact HAWKS about about your issue and post if you are satisfied or not with the end outcome. Everything else is just whining, weather it be about past issues or that they just do not like the vendor.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Key word is "should" be able to have that extra employee but small "mom and pop" business and big company businesses are in 2 different but same boats.. As in one can afford it and the other can't quite.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

Very first page.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I stand corrected, and they obviously have a valid point. The poster seemed irritated and they are returning it to Hawks for a full refund? They appear a lot less irritated however than many posting in this thread that have no stake in this arguement IMO?

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

Any business big or small is responsible for the products they represent, im sure someone has the duty at hawks to make sure the website is up and running(they don't maintain themselves), i would assume this would mean updating products, not just copy and paste or print out a page from a different company

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Ask all the members that got shafted in the SSW GP a few years back

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Exactly. That was complete bull **** too.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, one would think that but again, that's the difference of a small vs big company.
Take a peek around the net and check product descriptions on other companies web sites where the info is just copy/pasted. Its everywhere!
Granted its small distributing companies selling the parts of larger suppliers.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that's EXACTLY what everyone thought was going on, but actually wasn't! lol.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, 2 small companies makes it very personal when something goes wrong.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you're addressing this like it was an accident or an oversight....that simply isn't true man. this went on for over a year. the site descriptions weren't changed until the situation was put to light, and then the changes were done right away, which means that it could have been done a long time ago. someone made the decision to fraudulently market these master cylinders as tick's unit.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I am to a point but it's only because I wasn't there in either company and I do not know what truly happened. Do you?

I have no dog in this fight at all and I've really said more than I wanted too here.
Been reading threads on several forums also. I do see a major issue with Hawks, don't think I don't.
I'm just bouncing ideas around here to get thoughts back and promote healthy healing discussion (maybe that's too much lol).

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i believe with the evidence presented, along with the confession from bruce, i feel this is pretty cut and dry.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

I think I talked with the same gal. I said I would never buy again but I know I will. Because I have "needs" that Hawk's has. If you don't want to ever buy again - that is a good way to voice your dismay however there can be improvement with any company. Everyone wants cheap and fast like a drive thru. Some things aren't that simple and if some of you had it your way you would have them go out of business yesterday.
Someone said talk to an attorney - HA. Go talk to one, see who wins in the end, it won't be Hawk's, Tick or you! It will be the Attorney's!
I will buy from them again because they have products I want. I have learned that you will need to ask some more questions and being a family business the "customer service rep" might be a daughter or friend who really doesn't understand what or how to treat people who worked hard to have the money to buy from them, in addition this is why they get paid, because people are buying from them in order to pay their wages!!!! Every customer should be treated well and when I did have that problem I got a call form Bruce who took time out of his day because he did care.My order was maybe $10.00 - in my eyes by taking the time, he lost money because I hope he makes over $10/hr.
So with that said, not everyone is going to jump on the bandwagon and say NEVER AGAIN - those of you that are, stick to your principles but never say never.
Used parts are just that and should be priced on a case by case basis. A beat up console should have never been shipped - possibly Bruce and the rest of the people with Hawk's need to have an internal meeting and learn from what is said here. I bet that POS console would not be in ine of their personal cars, so why was it good enough to be in yours? They can be better but I hate to see anyone going out of business. In fact, I would like to see them get better and do the right thing - not giving people their money back but possibly honoring the warranty that Tick's does. Because the instructions were the same could mean a copyright infringement and could carry penalty but maybe Bruce thought it was so well written, why change it?
I am by no means a Hawk's advocate but I see them making an effort to provide options for ThirdGen owners and for that reason is why I hope they stay in the game and resolve this in a justified method. Some will always be upset, some will be content and others say WGAS - (Who gives a ****).
Shame on this site for having them as a sponsor? I bet more than 75% of the people are able to come to this site because of sponsors like Hawk's. I say, thank you for their help keeping this site going while promoting their business and helping us have a FREE forum! Hawk's please make sure you learn from this situation.

Richboll

I think that everyone has voiced their outrage and Indignation over the questionable business practices exhibited by Hawks but let’s face it, if they have something we need and we can’t find it anyplace else…we’ll buy it from them. I’ve ordered parts from ebay and other places that weren’t up to my expectations as far as quality was concerned and other things that far exceeded my expectations. You need to know what you want and ask the right questions prior to placing your order. If you don't like the answers given..then don't buy. It's as simple as that. Hopefully everyone involved has learned something from this.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

I've dealt with (and others too) the same **** poor attitude on the phone with them for as long as I can remember. There are other options out there other than hawks, I'm not saying they're not a useful resource but you would think holding that status or corner on the market would prevent them from doing this kind of crap. For now these cars are still a dime a dozen, I can find almost anything I need locally or through a friend so personally I don't need to put myself at risk by going through them.

I think the buyer beware statement is pretty dead on, sad that you need to say that about a "reputable" vendor/sponsor.