dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

I've decided to make this my engine build thread so I could keep tract of my progress. I've never had a build thread so this is gonna take some getting used to. The thread strarted as me deciding on a cam for those that are just tuning in.




Hey guys, I am at the stage on my car where I am about ready to chose a cam so I can do it at the same time as installing my heads and FIRST intake. Here is some background on the car. Its a 86 TA with a 400 in it. T5 trans, with 3.23 9bolt rear. It currently has stock heads with stock tpi setup but with EBL Flash.

What I want outve the car is basically to be a great street performer with the couple times a year strip/autocross. It will be driven more then just the weekends when I can. But I have a motorcycle and beater taurus to drive as well. I have read up on the XFI280 and heard it is a good cam for a 350/383 so figured it would be just fine in the 400.

On that note, I dont expect this thing to rev like crazy. It will have 64cc Edelbrock Performer RPM heads on it. 185cc runners and it should put me around 9.5:1 Compression I believe. Im thinking red line around 6k shift around 5500rpms? As I said above it will have the FIRST intake setup on it as well. The heads have dual springs of some sort on them, I was told they were heavy duty ones. And I will also have full 1.6 roller rockers with the girdles. Another thing is I have Dyno Don Headers/ypipe with a SLP Loudmouth II catback. No cats.

Anyone else think that cam will be what I am looking for?

1slowta

If i'm looking at the right cam it has pretty much the the max lift those heads can handle according to my summit magazine. I would check on that before ordering it! Doesn't seem to good to have the highest lift cam the heads can handle! I don't know what's required to upgrade the heads but I almost think you should go with a smaller cam. Something more in the 1000-5200 range. better to small than to big I think. I'm dealing with a cam that's to big and it made my car a turd! I'm no iengine builder though either so it's your call!!!!!!

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Well Im no expert with how much lift heads can get and what effects it, thats why I decided to post. But from my limited understanding and research the cam is rated at .552/.547 lift while the heads are .575 max lift straight from edelbrock. With the supposed "heavy duty" dual springs on them they might be good for more though. Here is the cam I am talking about. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...67-4/overview/

I am kindve leery on the 2400-6400 operating range. I think that might be a little bit on the higher side. But I have heard that bigger cube small blocks tend to "swallow" a cam and bring those numbers down some. Would this be true?

RyanJB

The larger stroke will bring the operating range down 500-100 RPMs.

T/Aperformance

That Advertised operating range is just a basic, Normally the RPM range is lower in the real world, And will be lower on a 400ci than on a 350 or 383ci. I think you would be happy with the cam you have selected.
I hope you will at least be doing some port matching on those heads to match the intake,

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the input everyone. T/A, do you think lift wise I will be fine and wont be pushing it with these heads at that amount of lift?

I will see about port matching, Ive never really done any kindve porting work. I assume I just take the gasket and do a sort of gasket match for both the intake and heads? Then smooth the transition as it goes farther into the runners?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Exactly, the 400 cubes will tame that cam. It will be done by 6000 so it will be optimal in the 5000-5500 range. I think its a good match for a First Tpi and street use
Just need to confirm your spring specs! For hyd roller, They should have atleast 135 lbs seat pressure and over 350 lbs open or they will float by 5800-6000. On a 350-383 i'd want to see 150-165 lbs seat and 400 open with xfi lobes going over 6000 rpm

Flat tappet will need abit less than these

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Whats the process of finding out info on the springs?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well see if the manufacturer has any info on them first. Need to know spring install height, diameter, coil bind height, spring seat pressure at install height, spring rate, and recommended clearance to coil bind which generally is atleast .050". I myself am going tighter, ~ .040 or so. Its pretty sketchy

Fwiw, i kinda feel like the 280 xfi in a 350 is about that of my 246/252 cam in my 400 as far as idle characteristics and driveability, having tuned and been in a car with these setups. I ran a afr 195 on a 400 with 233/233 grind. Also very driveable, very mild. Good power to 5500-5800, thats about all

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I have a xfi 280 cam (flat tappet) in my 400sbc.

Check the sig below for my mods.

The power stops at about 5500rpm. But mine is a stock block with stock cast pistons and rods.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

I have no idea on the manufacturer of the springs. They arent what came with the heads from Edelbrock. They are dual springs of some sort.

Thanks for the comment, I think I have decided on this cam as long as I can make sure I am fine with the springs I have.

T/Aperformance

Well Orr answered your first question for me already and very well might I add.
And for the port matching yes you have that right. Just take your time and go slowly, Don't get in a hurry

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well only thing you can do now is take some springs over to a machine shop that does head work and has a spring pressure tester. Test a few springs at the current install height and max lift of the cam. Then find coil bind.

Else scrap them and buy known springs

cuisinartvette

^^^^^^
Very crucial what Orr said.
More aggressive the lobe the springs gotta be right so you dont beat up the valvetrain. Will be a torquey bastard.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Edit: post refers to hyd rollers but thread is considering flat tappet, requiring much different spring pressure.


Most heads dont come with appropriate springs for modern hyd rollers. AFR does have good springs with their 8019 option however. But other manufacturers i havent seen put out small diameter stiff springs in their heads yet. They need to follow the lsx style and use 1.800" install height, 1.26-1.30" diameter doubles for these higher rpm aggressive lobes.

Tell you from experience, a old standard 120's lb seat/320-350 lb open spring used on a few heads in the past will float by 5700 rpm on a 2.02" valve with that 280xfi lobe. Should use good lifters too, ls7's are recommended.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

This is all hydraulic flat tappet. Im not doing a roller conversion on this motor. Will that change any of the above? I know I obviously cant use the ls7's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My mistake, i thought this was a roller! They still are aggressive lobes but you probably will not need to go over 135 lbs seat / 300's open. Will need to check for available springs for flat tappets. I never use those cams.

Do not use the double springs, they probably are too stiff for the flat tappet.

Talk to LB9gta on what afr springs he is using with that flat tappet cam.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I have emailed the local machine shop about testing the springs so I can at least know what they are. I also pm'd LB9gta about what springs he is using. Thanks a ton for the help so far everyone!

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I bought that cam back in 2006 so that was a while ago.
I dug up the cam card and they recommended the 26918.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...8-16/overview/

Then I found the springs that I actually bought are the 981-16
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-981-16
Spring Rate (lbs/in):370 lbs./in.
Inside Diameter of Outer Spring (in):0.880 in.
Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in):1.254 in.
Coil Bind Height (in):1.150 in.
Damper Spring Included:Yes

They have lasted 2 motors and plenty of nitrous!

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

You need to fully port those heads to get the most out of that cam. You heads doesnt flow that well.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

I will be doing some porting to them, I might even see about outsourcing and getting them fully ported at the shop that checks out the springs.

I do have another question since this is a EFI area...injector size. Will 24lbs be to small for this? Next choice from those are the 27lbs both of which being the bosch IIIs from southbay.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I wouldn't go smaller than a 30. You should be able to get good deals on the red bosch III injectors. 36 would probably be preferable. My 355 has the 30 lbs/hr bosch III at 75% duty cycle.

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I use 36 lb injectors but I need them for my dry nitrous kit.

If you are just going NA, then 24's would be too small

TPI-Formula350-

I run the 280xfi (roller) in my 383. I also use the 26918 comp springs and I use 30lb ford injectors for my NA motor

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Ok, looks like I will get 30lbs injectors to be safe. Hoping to take the heads this week to get the springs checked out.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Just got back from the machine shop I had check out the springs. They said they are 150lbs closed and 350 open @.550 lift. I am going to assume these are too strong for this flat tappet setup?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hmm, i think they are borderline too stiff depending on quality of cam core. What was the install height? Can you relax the height abit to reduce seat pressure. I have heard some flat tappet guys running those pressures but it seems a tiny bit excessive. They are good roller springs for most hyd roller setups

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

I don't know install height. I might be able to check that when I get back home. I think I will go with comp spring # 981-16. It was suggested above by someone running it with this cam in a flat tappet. That way I know I'm good in that department. Think that's a good route?

The_Punisher454

Just make sure you use oil that has a lot of ZDDP.. The crap oil sold now days has had most of it taken out since factory cars now all have roller cams. VR1 and Delo400(but not 400LE) both have plenty of ZDDP.
Comp cams flat tappet cams are not very tolerant of oil that lacks the ZDDP.

I concur with LB9GTA's that the power will die out around 5500, thats been my experience with 400's and similar cams. Usually around 500rpm's lower than a similar 350 for a given cam grind.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Have ordered my springs/retainers and all the assorted AN-6 fuel hardware I needed to do the new fuel rail/external regulator. I also know that the intake gasket is either a 1206 or 1205 with the FIRST intake. So I need to measure it to find out which one and then can get that to see how much porting needs done on the edelbrock heads. Hope to order the cam/lifters in the next week or two. Then head gaskets/rest of gaskets/might do injectors then as well. After that it looks like I will be pretty close to being ready to tear it down and install. I will have to order pushrods once I use a checker to get the correct length. Hoping to do all this over my thanksgiving break from school.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Got a box of goodies from summit today!
Springs/retainers/and fuel system hardware has arrived.



Nothing like some new parts to drool over.

But in all seriousness, I think I will contact the shop I had to check the springs currently on the heads and see how much they will charge to clean, magnuflux, and install my new springs/retainers. That way I know my heads are good and the springs are installed without me having to go through all that work.

Once all that is done I will be ready to order my cam/lifters/head gaskets and anything else I need to be ready to install everything.

Here are some shots of me prepping the intake to be matched to the 1205 gasket that the heads are already matched to. Doesnt look like much needs done, but it might take me a while since I dont have alot of spare time.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Well I made my last big purchase from summit today for this engine work I'm about to start. Ordered the cam/lifters/all gaskets needed for the cam/head/intake swap.

I have decided to change the title of this thread and make it my kindve build thread for the motor. Will be my first major build performance wise on a motor. I rebuilt the 400 when I put it in but it just had stock parts. So this is my performance build of it.

Anyway I will have pictures within the next week of all the parts that will be coming in. Hoping to begin tear down the weekend of the 9th. It's a long weekend for me from school so will have more time to work on it.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Small update for today, my double roller timing set came in this afternoon. Also started the minor porting on the intake I am doing to gasket match it.

Got one side rough ported. Heres some shots during it. Phone battery went dead as I was taking the pictures so didnt get that many and the ones I did get are horrible lighting. But you get the idea. Shavings were all over the runners so dont mistake them for the spots I ported.







Heads are at the machine shop getting my new springs installed. The cam/lifter/gaskets are coming in tomorrow. Hope to hear back from FFI this week to see when my throttle body will get back from being rebuilt. Also getting all the brackets/little bits I need for the intake that didnt come with it when I got it. Still planning on tear down next weekend.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Everything but the throttle body and misc. intake parts have arrived. Those should arrive sometime this week. This weekend is still a go to begin the work!



Fished up port matching the intake as well. Turned out pretty decent I thought. Didnt do a lot of porting. More of a clean up/slightly larger ports.





Pretty excited for the weekend, it will be great to see all these parts I have been gathering finally be put to use!

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Well over the weekend and yesterday I got the car tore down and the new heads on/torqued down. New Cam installed, then measured for pushrod length. Ordered them and got them installed yesterday along with my roller rockers/girdles. Intake/fuel rail is now on as well as distributor set. Accessories are back on the motor and headers. Radiator is back in. Started running my AN-6 braided fuel hose late last night and will finish up in the morning. Then all that's left is coolant/rest of the oil/runners & plenum/throttle body/hookup wiring/and hook up the y-pipe.

Here is a shot from the other day.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Holy cow, look at the camber on the strut plates! Auto-x ?

Looks like it's coming together nicely. Don't forget to use a high zinc oil when breaking the cam in.

-- Joe

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Honestly I've never messed with the alignment in the front. I know it's off because you can see the tired are noticeably like this / \. I've been waiting till I get my lowering springs installed in the front and get a pair of aftermarket caster/camber plates to do the alignment. It doesn't handle bad at all. Tires don't seem to be wearing horribly either shockingly.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Once you get the springs in to lower the vehicle the towers will usually end up being really far inward to get any type of aggressive camber.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, they are just the eiboch (spelling) pros. So it's not gonna be slammed. I won't install the fronts until I get my aftermarket strut mounts. That way I can do it all at once. Then I will get an alignment. Going to work on the car in the morning as long as it doesn't rain. Hoping for a good update for everyone!

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Big update! It runs! Got it fired up finally this afternoon before I had to go to work. Kindve ran into a issue of my plug wires not liking the heat of running at 2500rpms. So only got to run it for about 4 mins 2 different times at 2000-3000 rpms.

Also, it will sit at 2250ish rpms with me not touching the gas and the throttle stop not touching on the throttle body. I couldn't really troubleshoot that much since the plug wire issue ruined a couple wires. I'm thinking the IAC isn't adjusted to the new throttle body? Either that or I have a vacuum leak?

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Ended up having a runner gasket at the plenum crooked and causing a vacuum leak. Got that fixed and now have it up and running just fine. Idle is tuned and pretty smooth shockingly. Might try to lower it, have it set to around 950 at operating temp. I want to hear that cam even more!

Anyways I am driving the car today to work so will be able to datalog and do some ve learns. Plan on getting a video posted up of this thing running, man is it loud! I really felt bad this morning when I started it up and left it running to get the frost off of it. 7:30am and exhaust that shakes the windows of my house...im pretty sure they hate me.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Got a short video of it running. I don't think this video even does this thing justice of how loud it is.

http://s975.photobucket.com/user/dab...02121.mp4.html

I guess it isn't possible to embed videos? Either way there it is.

I need to put my new CTS in, old one doesn't have the plastic connector part so it keeps coming unplugged while driving. Which makes it impossible to tune any. Also need to remove my airdam since it is cold out now and it literally won't get up to temp when driving around.
Also making it that much harder to do any tuning if it doesn't get to temp. Seems crazy to me that a 406ci with a big cam/heads/intake/exhaust is beyond easy work for the factory tiny radiator.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Nice job! Congrats. My old 383 never worked that stock rad either. Stock rads are more than enough for street strip builds.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the compliment! Means a lot coming from you, I followed your TT 401 build for a while. You do great work!

I figure I can save the $ from a big fancy radiator and spend it elsewhere for now. Like suspension parts! Can't wait to get started with the suspension, that's my next "phase" I guess, but its going to have to wait till after spring break...I want to go to Mexico and need to start saving $$$ for that!

I have a video recorder that is similar to a go-pro, once I get it tuned and more drivable I will put one of the mounts on the dash and get a couple videos of some pulls.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Well, I guess the local state troopers might not like the sound to much....got pulled over tonight on my way home from work. The whole thing is a story in itself. Lets just keep it short. I ended up having to go meet the cop somewhere else while he went and checked on another trooper and ended up waiting a total of 45ish minutes to get my license back and a $120 ticket for loud exhaust. Not a happy camper...

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Running into a issue where it runs fine up until it starts getting warm. Around 160+. It seems to start cutting out and acting like it's got a dead cylinder(s). Then once it sits and cools it runs fine. I notice the Afr goes leaner when this happens. But it's running really rich now to start with so it isn't going any leaner then 14 when it starts acting up.

It's hard to explain, you can just hear and feel that it is weaker and quieter. Has a bad hesitation and won't accelerate well. Shakes when under a load too.

I'm thinking possibly the intake is loose and when it heats up it starts leaking? Or the heads? I will be checking the torque on them this weekend when I get back in town. Also will be installing some 36# hr injectors!

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

Hey, I told you before about springs that I put in my engine.

Read this thread!
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...ml#post5674458

I believe I have used the wrong springs!
I am sorry!

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the update on that, although I dont think that is causing my immediate problem I am having right now. I will definitely look into getting the recommended springs or similar ones.

BadSS

I don't know if they fixed this issue or not, but I noticed when mocking up the intake that the bolts for the runners to base were too long,,, or the holes were not tapped deep enough. Without the gaskets in place and fully tightened there were three or four bolts that bottomed with enough gap left that I wasn't sure if the gasket would seal it or not. So,, I ground the bolts down.

Also the bolts up top are not bossed like the stock plenum. I thought that may be a potential for a vacuum leak and used small nylon washers (like used on the Holley fuel bowls) to go under the bolts as a precaution. I bought enough of the nylon washers for the top and the bottom,, again just to be on the safe side.

I don't know if that's your issue or not, but it's probably worth checking.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Maybe tune related? Coolant based fuel tables? Is it trying to run closed loop? Who is doing the tuning?