customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

heres the brake system. 87 formula 350 4 wheel stock disk. heres the upgrades. the car never had good brakes which is why so much has been replaced. rotors have been on for only about 23,000.

rebuild master cylinder
rebuilt booster
braided stainless lines replacing all rubber lines
stock proportioning valve deleted(front brakes use solid brass tee and rears use SSBC adjustable proporting valve
SSBC force 10 aluminum and stainless calipers
SSBC ceramic pads
rotors were not sure wat brand but are cross drilled and slotted got them from JC whittney.

now all this has been replacing the stock stuff over the last 3-4 yrs. the first things done were the calipers/pads/rotors. they had been on for 3-4yrs and about 20,000-23,000 miles. all this stuff had been done and now im doing an engine swap, all of the parts above helped but i still couldnt get my front wheels to lock up at all, EVER! they grabbed at first but as the pedal was pressed harder its like the car would just roll through the brakes. like it wasnt grabbing after the intial pedal slowing the car down. i cant figure this out, i just finnally replaced the last thing on the list which is the hard lines. the stock hard lines werent in bad condition. car ran fine so i didnt find vacum leaks.

if you look in the pics the rotors on the back are completely smooth... worn down past the slotting the cross drilled holes are still there but the slotting is GONE! the fronts are in better condition and some of the slotting is still there.

tell me what would be causing this and possibly my bad brakes? seems like the SSBC calipers are pushing more on the back pad but not as much on the front.

pic one shows my new rotors that are going on next to the old ones. i really need to fix this, not safe driving around

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

I can't really see what's going on in those pictures. The old rotors look rusty, but I cant see a problem...

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

u need to look at the back(aka inner rotor surface) of the rusted rotor this is in pic 1 and 2. the surface where there was one slots is completely gone. its completely smooth. inother words the rear surface of the rotor has been worn away significantly. there is a big lip towards the center of the rotor on the rear bc no much material has been worn away by the pads.

on the other side the front side of the rotor in pic 3 u can see the slotted cutout still in the rotor... it has not worn away nearly as much as the rear surface of the rotor has... this tells me that the rear of the rotor is getting way more pressure from the inner pad vs the outside. so the caliper is pushing the inner pads more than the outter pads are being pulled toward the rotor.

this is uneven rotor wearing. so im asking what causes this and if anyone can solve my current problem of my brakes sucking.

rickey86z

[quote=customblackbird;4114530] sounds like your caliber is getting stuck. I had the same problem on my front. hope it helps try rebulding or replaceing the caliber.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i thought that much. but the calipers where brand new when all this was done. i just had one rebuilt bc a bleeder screw snapped off. even if that explains the rotor wearing on the inside but what about my brakes sucking?

its like anymore than 1/2 pedal and the calipers stop grabbing and its like the car is just rolling through the brakes. like theres no increased clamping force.

rickey86z

you upgraded everything r u sure you have enough vacum

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

pretty sure. i tested it once... i think it was like 18-20in. it would go up and down.

i tested brake caliper PSI at the caliper with a SSBC pressure test kit and i wasnt getting full clamping... like 900 on a regular stop and 1000 or so on a panic stop. i should of been getting 1100-1200 regular stop and 1400psi panic stop. i replaced the booster. and im vacume ball/canister seemed fine.

rickey86z

well bud u got a rebuild booster/cylinder might b 1 of those.With the psi being so low Are u sure you have the valve adjusted right?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

yea both are rebuilt i got both from advance auto or pep boys... i dont remember anymore. theres no real way to check them. the booster i could check to see if it holds vacume for 3min. if it does then its good. but no way to tell with the master cylinder. i also did pick the one for 4 wheel disk brakes.

the front brakes are run into a 3/16" brass tee that controls the front brakes. they are FULL on all the time. i deleted the stock proportioning valve completely. and ran my own tubing for the rear brakes. right below the master cylinder has a adjustable SSBC proporting valve that controls only the rear brakes so i can have some brake bias and be able to tune the rear brakes.

im not following the valve ur referring too. hope u mean the proportioning valve.

im gona go with saying that the booster and master cylinder are fine since they have been replaced. and the only thing i havent upgraded was the hard lines... which i just did but i cant test them bc i have the motor out and no vacume for the booster. i mean its pretty bad to have upgraded everything i have and still not be able to lock up the front brakes which i should be able to easily

SSBC states that i should have like 16" of vacume to operate the power brakes.... how much does it actually aquire?

rickey86z

on my z28 i have 21/in. Hope this helps. I would still consiter the booster/cylinder too

Z28 MeTaL HeAd

Yup, id have to agree that theres something wrong with the booster/master for sure.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Are the SSBC calipers floating or fixed?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

the SSBC attach just like the stock calipers. only diff is the housing design and the twin piston vs the stock iron and single piston. the attach with 2 bolts that fit just like the stockers. those bolts do however slide though the front/outside of the caliper facing the rim.the bolts do slide through but have to be pushed through since there is a bushing/gasket type thing in the hole. there is nothign in the hole but the oring type bushing/gasket... i do lube the bolts with AntiSiez everytime i do the brakes and i stuck some in the holes this time.


ok guys heres the update...

tday i fixed my leaking Tee fitting and reflared my lines etc. buttoned everything back up and i was able to be leak free so i bleed the brakes and have a really hard pedal. which is good.

i bled the brakes and then used my old SSBC brake pressure testing kit. i took out the bleeder screw and put the SSBC gauge in there.... (i know air will get into the system but SSBC says this is normal and will go away after the first pump) i put it in and have my dad step on the pedal, (THIS IS WITHOUT VACUME, theres no engine in the car) the gauge reads 1,100 PSI on the driver front, 2 pumps and i get the same reading. i take it out and do the same process on the other side... gauge reads 1,250psi first pump and 1,300 psi second pump.

so this is what i have gathered. ive only replaced the HARD LINES since i had the car out last, i was only getting 900 psi with vacume before i did the hard lines about 2yrs ago, and 1,100 on a panic stop with vacume(car idling in park)

Now im getting readings of 1,100 and 1,300 psi with no vacume. and as far as the rotors being worn more on the inside... i feel like this is common since most of the pressure is on the backside and the fronts are just pulled into the rotor.still this is drastic.

also tell me how this works out.... the rotors were replaced with the pads that i go in the SSBC caliper uprade kit... rotors are cross drilled and slotted from JC whittney and the pads are hipo ceramic pads from SSBC.... how did the rotors WEAR down completely on the inside and most of the outside and the pads have about 1/2 life still left on them? does this mean CR@PPY soft steel JC whittney rotors are to blame? and that the pads are much stronger than the steel in the rotor causing the rotor to wear down but not the pads?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

these where the rotors i had bought. they were part# 5547L-EP and cost 64.99$

they said to use semi metallic pads... i cant remember wat i had on but i think they are the SSBC D154 ceramic heavy duty pags that i got in the quick change caliper kit... even so the rotors didnt last 30,000 miles and the pads still have 1/2 or more life on them. so were the ROTORS SOFT POO?

im alil worried about the summit extreme rotor/pad kit now. pads are ceramic but they are powerstop pads... they are in a powerstop plastic with powerstop part#. but summit sells them for cheap.
here are the pads
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

here is the rotors.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

does anyone kno who makes the summit rotors in the part number above? summits new twin piston calipers for our cars are from SSBC... the look exactly like the ones i have. rotors have a number etched into the lip the number is AR8213...

alsoo found my reciept from AUTOZONE from 2005!
my master cylinder is a FENCO_REMAN part# M1997 for a 1987 firebird 350 8 5.7L FI

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/cat...m%401b7130f%5D

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Customblackbird I can't answer your question but how much weight difference would you say there is between the stock calipers and the SSBC Force 10 dual piston caliper? I'm considering purchasing the SSBC A181 brake kit. Any other comments appreciated.

rickey86z

the pads were eating the rotors up bro the ceramics are nasty on non ceramic rotors. try matching the pads and rotors up with manufac. spefication ceramics use heat to stop the car if ur not on the track dont help ur cause. unless u have alot of traffic in town.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

well i just got the caliper back from SSBC about 2 weeks ago or so... the shipped caliper to me says 6lbs on the UPS box... so there ya go. one caliper weighs 6lbs. they are a bit lighter than stock... and since its unsprung weight that can make a diff.

rickey86z... thats what i figured. they didnt state when i bought the rotors that they werent designed for ceramic pads. the pads i just bought came in a kit from summit... i believe the link is in this thread... they came with the prostop ceramic pads and the slotted/diamond groved rotors. however they dont state either if the rotors are designed for the ceramic pads.

car is a daily driver... i live in a high traffic area NORTHERN NJ lol... and my town is nothing but hills etc.

i just did the same upgrade to my dads 86TA... slotted and dimpled diamond rotors but used stock cheape pads by rebestos. they work fine. then again thats a modded 305tpi and mine will be a 480hp 383 and 150shot.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thank you on the weight.

MurcoRS

The uneven rotor (inner vs. outer) wear can only be caused by corroded/sticking hardware pins not allowing the caliper to move (slide) as it clamps. The heavy corrosion evident on your rotors tend to confirm this. Even if pins were clean you may not have enough lube on the little O rings, causes the same problem. Use new pins, use high temp silicone lube (the kind specifically for brakes) on the pins and the O rings, should solve the problem.
You pressure issues are probably going to be traced to the remanufactured master cylinder. Go buy yourself a brand new unit, most every reman I've ever opened had corrosion damage inside as they are typically collected from wrecks in junkyards after sitting for who knows how long. QC is terrible on remans, especially for older vehicles. The side to side difference in clamping pressure? Not that bad and since the pressure is coming from a common source it is definitely a caliper issue. One thing you didn't mention, does your car have the '87 iron rear calipers? And, did you get a master cylinder for the type of rear calipers you have?
Finally, as for the inability to fully engage the front brakes, people flame me all the time for this but I'll stick to my guns... If you are not regularly racing this car on a road course drop the adjustable prop valve and go with a factory prop valve.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

yea i kinda agree with the pins not moving freely but well see how they work now. the pins are old (original ones from SSBC) but i lubed them with anitsieze before insalling. so not sure if that would help.

my car is a stock WS6 4 wheel disk, 87 formula 350. yes is has the poopy rear iron calipers... i will however be switching to a ford 8.8 that has larger disk brakes on it so im not worried about it. but the reman master cylinder that i did get was for 4wheel disk brakes. it was a FENCO-REMAN. so i made sure i got the correct master cylinder. but i wasnt even sure if the stock one was bad since i just replaced it thinking it was the culprit... i beleive i still have the original one as well.

my stock valve wasnt working great since after i replaced it the rears are able to stop the wheels from moving when the rear is in the air... the stock combo valve did not allow this. i will be sticking to the adjustable prop valve, im a spirited driver lol smooth roads are the devils playground