AmpleUnicorn88

For the past few weeks I have had an issue with the brakes on my 88 camaro. When I am braking, it pulls to the right. This weekend I finally looked into it and this is where I am so far:

I started off by visually inspecting both front brakes. There were no leaks from either caliper or rubber brake lines. The rotors and pads both looked good and are only a few months old. I had somebody step on the brakes while I checked each caliper and noticed the driver side caliper didn't move, so I came to the conclusion that the driver front caliper had seized. Makes sense because when I was braking it was pulling to the right. So I bought a new caliper from o reilleys, and I also bought a new rubber brake line because the driver side one looked like crap and the rubber had deteriorated near the caliper. I installed both, bled the hell out of the brakes then set the brakes, then drove it around and it still pulled to the right. After visually inspecting again, I noticed that the new caliper was barely moving now, so it still wasn't functioning correctly. So I figured I got a bad caliper from o reilleys(wouldn't be the first time I have got a faulty part) and returned it and got another one. Same exact thing was happening with that. So I removed both calipers and swapped them without installing them on the rotor. The old caliper on the passenger side now didn't work on the drivers side, and the newer caliper was working on the passenger side. So I know the calipers are fine. This is where I left off.

So I was thinking maybe the brake line is bad also and perhaps collapsing internally for some reason. So my next step is to take that off then return it and get another and try that again. If that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas. The brakes still somewhat work when fully assembled on the driver side. When I had it jacked up, I had somebody pump the brakes while I tried turning the hub, and the first time they pressed the brake, it seized up and the hub wouldn't turn even during the cycle where the brakes weren't applied. Double checked the passenger side and the hub frees up when the brakes aren't being applied.

I'm hoping somebody has an idea for me. The only other thing I can think of is the metal line coming from the porportioning valve is clogged up. From what I have researched, the porportioning valve wouldn't be a factor for this issue because it helps determine brake pressure for the rears. I have read across many different forums that a faulty valve wouldn't cause a pull when braking, so that is what I'm basing this opinion on. If I'm wrong I'm hoping somebody can inform me, or if they have suggestions/ideas on what it could be. I suppose suspension components could cause a pull also, however the caliper still being seized up tells me that this is brake related.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Not a bad caliper.

Not the proportioning valve.

Needs the rubber hose on the driver's side.

The way those fail (besides just bursting, which is rare anymore) is by the teeny tiny hole in the fitting where the rubber part is crimped on, rusts up inside, and the hole eventually gets blocked. When that happens, it takes a HHHHUUUUUUUJJJJJJJE amount of pressure to force any fluid down into the caliper; so while no fluid is going to that one, the one on the other side is doing all the work, thus yanking the steering that way; then when you take your foot off the brake, not a single molecule of fluid can come back out of the caliper, so it stays applied to whatever degree it managed, hence the "locked up" condition.

See my signature for a handy mental trick you can use when tracking down the cause of something you see going on.

Replace ALL the hoses. All 3 of em have had THE EXACT SAME fluid (probably all contaminated with water, therefore liable to rust everything) in them for THE EXACT SAME length of time, therefore are most likely in THE EXACT SAME condition, therefore have THE EXACT SAME likelihood of failure in the near immediate foreseeable future. Flush the brake fluid COMPLETELY, get rid of all the old waterlogged fluid and replace COMPLETELY with new.

AmpleUnicorn88

Haha yeah.

That is my next step. I want to believe every time I buy parts they aren't faulty but it has happened before. I don't suppose the metal line that connects from the porportioning valve to the rubber line can clog up and cause this issue, can it? I did read online kind of what you said, when a brake line clogs up, it can act as a one way valve allowing fluid to flow to the caliper but basically not back in to retract it. And that was sort of what I was seeing with the new caliper/new rubber brake line after I installed them. The old caliper didn't even move but the new one with the new line moved a tiny bit.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes the steel line can rust too. (kinda a universal property of "steel" if it's not "stainless") However the steel line has about 10 times the cross-sectional area of the teeny tiny hole in the fitting part of the rubber line, so doesn't rust itself shut quite as readily.

No NOTHING having ANYTHING to do with the proportioning valve can cause this problem. Whatever goes wrong with it, affects both sides equally. Can't possibly cause one side not to work while the other still does. Not in this universe, anyway.

Study my signature CAREFULLY. Pay close attention to the parts about "simplest" and "fits all the facts". Those are the key to diagnosis.

Don't forget, the problem is on the driver's side, not the pass side.

AmpleUnicorn88

Still have to bleed the brakes but I swapped the rubber line this morning and pumped the brakes a bunch and the piston on the caliper is now sliding out. So you were correct sir, Thank you.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That's what we're here for.

AmpleUnicorn88

So I might have spoke too soon. I just spent the last 30 minutes bleeding the brakes and the caliper on the driver side is still seizing up to the rotor. I have replaced the rubber line twice now, and the caliper 3 times and get the same results every time.I was able to get the caliper piston to slide out when I swapped the rubber line with a not her new one, but then the piston seized up and wouldn't go back into the caliper, so I exchanged that for another one. Just got it all back together again and I was having my girlfriend pump the brakes while I bled it. The passenger side rotor will turn while she was pumping the brakes during the time she wasn't on the brake and it would lock up when she pressed the brake like normal. The driver side, doesn't move at all when she was pumping the brakes even when she wasn't pressing on the brake pedal. This is has easily been the longest and most stressful brake job I have ever done and usually disc brakes take me an hour start to finish, not weeks. Anybody got any ideas to try, because I am fresh out of them.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

When you bleed it, does fluid come out normally; same amount shoots out as the other side?

It's not impossible that the steel line is crushed, rusted inside, or otherwise blocked... if fluid doesn't come out that's what I'd look for next. Fortunately that particular line is the easiest one on the car to replace.

If fluid DOES come gushing out however, about the only possible remaining explanation, is the caliper.

naf

iTrader: (7)

Reman calipers are so inexpensive, I can't imaging anyone removing one with an unknown history and not installing new. Like $13 each.

AmpleUnicorn88

Yeah I basically get the exact same stream of fluid out of both sides. I went through enough brake fluid bleeding it last night that I had to fill the reservoir at least 10 times.

These are crappy reman calipers I have been going through from o'Reillys though. I was thinking I was getting unlucky and every single one they keep getting in is bad. I have returned 3 so far and they said they only keep 1 in stock at all times, which is odd. So I have drained both stores by my house but there's a big one close by and one by where I work. But I'm thinking now of removing the master cylinder and blowing out the line with air and then putting it all back together with a new master cylinder now. My master cylinder reservoir had buildup so bad it was hard to tell there was fluid in it because the walls were just coated in blackness. But the fact that I keep getting the same amount of brake fluid coming out of both calipers makes me think that that wouldn't make a difference.

AmpleUnicorn88

Are you saying you can't imagine anytime somebody removes a caliper them not replacing it? I feel like that's what you were trying to say, but not positive.

I have replaced the caliper 4 different times now with the cheapest one o'Reillys has. They are the remanufactured ones and they are like $18.but I have only paid for one once, I have just been exchanging them every few days when they don't seem to work and I exchanged the rubber brake line after I bought a new one too. I wanted to buy a good set of brakes but it's like $300+ for just a set of calipers and pads and I was hoping that running these cheap remans would be good enough. I have put the cheap ones from o'Reillys on probably 6 different vehicles I have owned, most of them being lifted trucks, and never had these kind of problems.

naf

iTrader: (7)

No. just when the caliper is of 'unknown history'.

Ron U.S.M.C.

Try NAPA parts , in pairs.


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...brake-job.html

AmpleUnicorn88

Did you paint those calipers or did they come like that?

And we're the calipers you used new or remanufactured? I think your post you said you paid $22 a piece which isn't much more than I paid for the remans at o reilleys.

AmpleUnicorn88

I just went to Napa and bought what I think is the same calipers you are using. It's a black eclipse one it said on the box. It's about to pour here so I'm going to swap it out tomorrow and see. If this works I'm probably going to replace the other one too.

Ron U.S.M.C.

The reason I mentioned "in pairs" is because of the possibility of one working slightly differently then the other. In pairs everything is consistent. Or as consistent as you can get.
One side gets a new hose so does the other side. Etc.

The calipers are already painted and are rebuilt.
They are actual GM calipers that have been blasted and put back together with new rubber and slides/bars.
They are semi loaded meaning they come with out the pads.

AmpleUnicorn88

That makes sense. And I plan to replace the other one. I just want to make sure I figure out the problem first. I have used the remans from o'Reillys plenty of times without any issues so this just kind of worries me. If this new caliper I got from o'Reillys ends up working, I'm gonna go back and get another one for the passenger front, and then I will just get another rubber line while I'm at it because for all I know it's original.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

didn't you say that you flipped to calipers from driver side to passenger side, and then the NEW caliper worked, and OLD caliper didn't? I would think that 99.9% determines that the caliper is NOT the problem. On ONE hand, I hate to ever suggest just throwing parts at a problem, but at SOME point you have to concede that there's only so many things it could be. I'd remove/clean/inspect everything!

AmpleUnicorn88

Correct, I did do that. Then, I replaced the new line with another new line, and swapped the calipersback to the side they go on. Then, I bled the brakes or I started to bleed the brakes anyways and then the piston on the newer caliper all the sudden wouldn't go back into the caliper and it seized up so I had to take it back and replace it with another one. Then that one was sticking so I just went to Napa and bought the one Ron Usmc is running and am planning to get it installed today or tomorrow. If that works then I will replace the other sides too. I'm just trying to pinpoint the problem before I replace everything.

AmpleUnicorn88

So I just installed the new caliper and bled it a bunch. It still seizes up when pumping the brakes. It doesn't free up the caliper in between pumps but it shortly after letting off the brakes and not pressing them again, it releases which it didn't do before. So it's better than it has been but still not there. I did notice something doing it this time that may or may not have something to do with it. I took the master cylinder cap off and noticed that the port closest to the firewall has the most activity when releasing the brakes while the port that is forward, has maybe half or even less fluid movement when releasing the brakes. I'm not sure if the reservoir ports are separate because one port is for one side and the other port is for the other, but I feel like there should be the same amount of activity coming from both when pressing and releasing the brakes, but there is only the same amount of movement coming from the port closest to the firewall.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Rear piston in the MC works the front brakes. (both of them) Front piston works the rear brakes. (again, both)

Fluid movement in those ports doesn't really mean anything in particular.

AmpleUnicorn88

Oh ok then I guess that's meaningless for this endeavor.haha

And unfortunately, I have now replaced the caliper with one from Napa and that didn't fix it, and then today I swapped in another rubber line from Napa to replace the new one from o Reilly's and still not resolved. I'm literally amazed in the worst possible way with how difficult this brake job has been. It's definitely the hardest and longest brake job I have ever done. Nothing leaks on the whole system and there is the same amount of fluid being pushed out both sides bleed screws. Because the fact that the caliper is still sticking to the rotor some I'm guessing that means the fluid is slowly being pushed back out of the caliper. At this point I'm thinking of just ordering a stainless braided line and then if that doesn't work, I know the problem is upstream. I feel like with what people have been telling me on here, the rubber hoses are hit and miss and sometimes a piece of the rubber can act as a flap that will allow fluid to go one direction but not the other(I think somebody explained it that way on here). I don't know what else to do besides try a metal line instead of the rubber. A master cylinder isn't very much, so I don't mind buying another one, and I just bought a nice vice so I can bench bleed it if I have to. I'm wondering if the problem could be as high up as the master cylinder.

Anybody know where I can order the right steel brake hoses that replace the rubber hoses? I can't find direct fit ones from summit and I don't think any parts stores around here carry them(O'Reilly, Napa,)

AmpleUnicorn88

UPDATE:

So I figured I would post an update on here of what I have done so far, because I still have the problem.

I have replaced the driver side caliper now like 5 times, the last time and what is currently on the car is one form Napa which I believe to be the same caliper Ron USMC is running on his camaro, and they seem way better than the crap I was getting from O'Reilleys. I also both custom stainless braided brake hoses (to replace the crappy rubber ones)and the fittings required, which cost me $86, which isn't too bad for good complete hoses that should last a long time. I replaced both front brake hoses with these new stainless ones, and there has been no change in what's happening. Car still pulls to the right when braking. When I attempt to turn the rotor on the car with the brakes applied, both front brakes lock up like they are supposed to, and when off the brake pedal, the passenger side releases immediately, whereas the driver side sticks for a second or two. When pumping the brakes, the passenger side caliper frees up ever cycle where the pedal isn't being pressed in, and the driver side caliper just sticks to the rotor preventing it from spinning, even during the split second that the brake isn't being pressed in. When we test drove it again today (me and BubbaJones_ya) we noticed that if you attempt to counteract the pull to the right when braking by jerking the wheel to the left, it straightens out throughout the duration of the rest of the braking. Not sure if that means anything, but we started to think maybe control arm bushings are bad on the passenger side. But, that wouldn't explain why the rotor isn't able to turn freely inbetween brake pumps like the passenger side, and it takes about 1.5-2 seconds for the rotor to be able to turn after pressing the brake pedal in, whereas the passenger side, no matter what, whenever the brake pedal isn't being applied, the rotor spins freely.

So I am again, out of ideas. I know that most people say the proportioning valve/combination valve couldn't possibly cause this problem because the front brakes and the rear brakes are controlled together with it, so if something happens to one it happens to the other. I understand what people are saying, but I have read (way less than the ones that said it couldn't possibly be it) some people say that the prop valve could cause this problem. That either cleaning it or replacing it would fix the issue. I know it's hard to say for sure without literally looking at the car for yourself, but the only things I haven't replaced are the metal lines coming out of the prop vavle, the prop valve itself, and the master cylinder. Like I stated before, the Master cylinder in both ports had black sludge built up in it, and it still has some stuck to the walls even after I tried cleaning it as carefully as I possibly could. I have now run 2 full big bottles of brake fluid through my brake system as well. So I am wondering if on the port coming out of the prop valve into the metal line to the front driver side has clogged up, or if the master cylinder has clogged up. I feel like if the master cylinder was going bad, was bad, or had some sort of malfunction, I would have issues stopping my car as well, which I don't have. All the brakes currently work, it's just the driver front that still seems to be sticking somewhat. Both the front brakes split from one another at the prop valve, so I feel like the problem is between the prop valve and the caliper. I don't feel that the caliper is the problem, because I had piston movement on it before I installed it, and it still catches and releases the rotor somewhat. I am pretty positive that it isn't either brake hose because I replaced both of them with braided stainless lines and it literally changed how it acted in no way. So assuming it isn't the caliper or brake hose, and my thinking is correct, then the problem is either with the prop valve or the metal line coming out of it. There was one other post we found when searching third gen where somebody had the exact same problem and went through replacing everything else that I did and swapped calipers and hoses just as I did, and somebody was positive that it was their prop valve, and I believe the person ended up saying they cleaned it out or replaced it and then the problem was fixed. Everything I read on the internet says it is either the brake hose or the caliper, and I am pretty positive those are both good to go. If my new stainless braided lines are kinking up I'm going to be pissed

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It's not the PV. Blee dat. There's ONE port coming out of it that goes to both front brakes (has 2 fittings in it, but it's the same port) so it can't be that.

It could conceivably be the steel lines, although if the brakes bleed correctly, then probably not. You can always get some suitable mechanic's wire and use that to rod them out. That should eliminate any possibility of a blockage in those causing the issue.

AmpleUnicorn88

I was wondering if right where the brake lines comes out of the prop valve if there could be an issue. I understand that when the fluid comes out of the MC it drains into the same crevice and that area of fluid is then pushed out to the left side and the right side at the same time. Is there anything that could clog up at the port where the brake line meets the prop valve? If the prop valve isn't the issue, then the only things I haven't replaced yet would be that metal brake line, which I have inspected thoroughly and there is no leaks anywhere along it, and the master cylinder. I haven't read anything that links the master cylinder to a brake pull issue as of yet, and I can't see a faulty master cylinder causing one out of the three brakes on the car to not work. I would expect it to affect all of them, not just one. I'm just wondering if I snake/blowout that metal line and then discover that it isn't blocked up at all, is there anything else it could be? I don't think poor bleeding would be the issue in my case since I cracked open the bleeder screw three times after I replaced the brake hose on the passenger side and it was already back to working the way it was with the old hose, but no matter how much I bleed either or both side together, the driver side still is slightly sticking. I suppose that the caliper I got at Napa could be bad, but I have never had this many problems changing brake components on any vehicle I have ever done. Never had to return anything even the lowest quality brake pads from parts stores haven't given me problems.

AmpleUnicorn88

So I removed the metal line that comes out of the proportion valve and to the brake hose and bought a brand new can of brake cleaner and then stuck the straw in one end and pressed the trigger, and most of the fluid shot back at my hand because it is bounding off where the first bend in the line is, but some of it makes it out the other end. I am not quite sure what it should look like when I do that if the line isn't blocked, but it wasn't a steady stream coming out the other end at any point. it had sporadic bursts of fluid shooting out and other times it was just running. It didn't seem like it was clogged because there was fluid coming out the other end. I tried blasting it the opposite direction and the same thing. I then flipped it back around to the original direction i was shooting the brake cleaner, and ran the rest of the can through it just to be sure. I then ran half a can of compressed air through it. I let it sit for a few ours before I re-installed it and I ran brake fluid through it a few times before I hooked it up to my hose for the caliper. Then i proceeded to bleed it. And...problem is still there. Literally nothing changed after I blew out that metal line. So, I have replaced the caliper several times, upgraded to braided stainless lines on both sides, and now thoroughly cleaned out the metal line that comes out of the proportioning valve and still have a problem with the caliper sticking to the rotor briefly after the brake is pressed, and it still pulls to the right when I brake. I was starting to think yesterday it could be suspension/steering related, but the fact that the rotor doesn't turn the same on both front sides means it's still a hydraulic issue. I am positive I can rule out right now that the braided line is bad. So that leaves the caliper and that metal hard line. Everything I have read said it is these 3 things malfunctioning/clogging up that case this issue, and nothing else could cause this problem. So I will probably replace that metal line that comes out of the prop valve sometime this week with a braided aftermarket one as well, and see what happens. If that doesn't work, then I guess I am swapping the caliper again. If that doesn't work, I am scared.
I don't know what else it could be. I just can't believe I have a bad caliper after I saw it move when the brakes are being pressed, and the hoses are both braided stainless now, so they are better than the rubber hoses. I haven't replaced the passenger side caliper yet just because I want to figure this problem out before I do that. The metal line that comes out of the prop valve is the only thing I haven't replaced yet. And if it can't be the prop valve or MC, and the brake hoses aren't the problem, then that leaves that metal line is still blocked up, or the caliper is bad...again. Maybe somebody knows something else, but all evidence points to that is what I am looking at right now. I am starting to wonder if I am ever going to have working brakes again.
I also tried unhooking the booster vacuum line while I was running my check to see if that for some reason had an affect on it(because I was desperate and I wasn't expecting anything to change) and all I did was cause a big vacuum leak, obviously.
Is there maybe something I am missing on the caliper aspect? Maybe the piston itself is ok, but something else like those caliper slide pins or even the brake pads themselves? The pads can only go in one way(well, they can only seat flush in the spots they are supposed to go one way) so I don't think I could have messed that part up. The caliper slide pins are not protected in any way, which I am used to seeing them have a rubber boot attached to the end and they don't come out unless you pry them out, these ones are just bare. The caliper slides across them, and I have tried tightening them tight, and also backing them way off so they were super loose and still, no change in the issue. I don't think the material on the pads themselves are causing the issue either, as they are fairly new, maybe have 4,000 miles on them.
I haven't been bleeding the brakes as well the last few times I have opened up the system simply because the passenger side reacted very quickly after barely bleeding it last time I checked and was allowing the rotor to free up immediately when the brake pedal wasn't engaged. The first few times I did this I bled the passenger side first and then the driver side next anytime I opened up the system and that didn't matter either. I figure whenever I do figure out what is causing this I will thoroughly bleed the system when I am done.

Ron U.S.M.C.

You know I hate to say this but sometimes you have to pay a professional to do it.
I hate shops with a passion, but it could be something simple that they will see right away. At least you will only be paying for labor since you have the parts.


I would look at "Brake Shops" primarily.


Let them look at it and at least get a quote.

AmpleUnicorn88

Well considering this is a hydraulic issue, I don't know that they would be able to tell me anything I don't already know without charging me hours of labor to take apart my entire brake system just to tell me more of what I already know. But I am thinking of calling or stopping by one to talk to somebody and see if there is somebody who more experienced with brake systems than me. I'm nervous because I could get somebody that is the younger version of me' who likes to think they know a thing or 2 and is strictly going off one or 2 experiences, or heresay.
I don't know how much time I will have to look into this week because I have to take it to emissions by Wednesday, and hopefully pass. Then this weekend, I'm going to hopefully be painting it finally.

AmpleUnicorn88

So it is finally fixed!

The metal spirally line was clogged up too bad to even blow out. We ran 2 cans of brake cleaner through it and tried blowing it out with an air compressor to no avail. I bought another custom stainless braided line like my hose replacements and put that in, and it worked immediately. So, no more caliper seizing. Thanks to everybody for the suggestions. I had a little bit of a delay working on it because I was prepping my car for paint, but I finally fixed it today.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So, I'm guessing you didn't do this...

AmpleUnicorn88

I did. Everything I bought that was available around here didn't go in all the way. That line bends about an inch after the fitting on the end that screws into the prop valve, and then it curves and has 2 loops in it, then bends 90 degrees before going up to the brake hose. It's almost impossible to snake it. I tried wiring of all gauging, pipe cleaner stuff, safety wire, I tried just about everything that ace or home depot has, as well as other parts stores and nothing could even go further than about 8" into the line. When I took the line off to blow it out with the compressor, it was pretty badly corroded in the middle too. So i decided since I couldn't flush it out or blow it out, to just buy an aftermarket line that was better and go with that. It was less than $30 for the braided stainless line and fittings I bought, and I'm sure the stock replacement from GM was 2 or 3 times that at least, and probably takes a week or 2 to get. This is much better than the stock one anyways.

rusty vango

its NOT a good idea to buy re man MCs and calipers, from anywhere . i only use new

AmpleUnicorn88

I mean that is your opinion. Plenty of people use re mans and don't have any issues. My issues were related to the hard line coming out of the prop valve. I would prefer to use New calipers but good ones are pretty expensive. I have used 're mans on most of the vehicles I have owned and never had any issues with them working correctly.