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Installed a system in my thirdgen just to have tunes in the car and I believe I may have gone overboard and moved into territories beyond my understanding. Originally I installed a 425 watt pioneer 4 channel amp as an addition to my kenwood stereo system. The 2 pioneer 12's came with the car. I was told that I could use a 4 channel amp 2 channels to power the 6X9's and and two to supply the subs. However, after installing it sounded like crap. Maybe I was expecting too much!
After doing some more research, that scenario is not going to work, so I purchased a Pioneer 900 watt amp to control the subs only and let the 4 channel control the mids and tweeters.
That scenario just did not have the kick I was looking for.
The subs scenario is that there are two subs in a cabinet and two wires to each sub then to the amp. After reading more and learning more about impedance, I was sure that the 900 wall amp would allow me to bridge and use my sube under 4 ohm conditions. The amp also says I can use under 4 ohm conditions while bridged. There is even a bridged layout on the back of the amp so I can run this scenario.
I followed this video to the "T" in running the subs in series and back to 4 ohm so the amp could handle it without heating up the amp.
As soon as I did all of that the system was kicking ***! Just simply a great clear sound with kicking bass. However, I noticed the subs amp heating up like all the others.
Perhaps Im doing something wrong again!!! What I am concerned about is, is the wire coming from the battery (8 Guage) good enough to run both amps and the capacitor. I have a distribution block. 8 guage coming in and splitting it to 8 guage wires. In essence producing less power? If it was producing less power to the amp, would it not overheat? Im confused there.
Here is my setup.
I am trying to do it right, but so much info out there, not sure whats true and whats not. I am not a guy that needs souond do loud you can hear down the block nor do I need so much bass, I feel numb. Just want a good sound system. Can I do it with this layout? If so what way should I go?
Subs are 4 ohm - Specs as follows Pioneer TS-W1207D4
Introducing our new Premier® Champion Series Subwoofers which feature an all-new design and look. Both subwoofers have a maximum power output of 1,200 watts. You now have a choice to select from either a Dual-Voice Coil 2-ohm or 4-ohm subwoofer:
TS-W1207D4: Dual 4 ohm, 4 Layer, Long Coil (4 ohm x or 2 ohm)
The Premier TS-W1207D4 subwoofers are designed to produce enormously powerful music. Just take a look at its super-heavy-duty construction, all designed to handle up to 1,200 watts max. Double-stacked magnets for higher power, and a step-up radial surround for superior control and long excursions. We used a constructed cast-aluminum basket for this sub.
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Pioneer GM-A5602 Bridgable Amp
CEA2006 Specifications
Power Output: 150 Watts RMS x 2 Channels (4 ohms ≤ 1% THD+N)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 96 dBA (Reference: 1 Watt into 4 ohms)
I think by doing this procedure we are bringing the subs up to 8 ohm, then back down to 4 ohms which should be right for my 2 channel 4 ohm amplifier. Am I clear on that or am I missing something? Im hoping at least I get the basic concept.
Like I said I ran it and it sounded great but amp was heating up.
Technically should be running at 4 ohm, and the amp can get hot and be a-ok. It will turn itself off due to thermal overload - if that happens it may be miswired.
Can you think of anything I should look at to see if its miswired? I do know that I am running 8 guage wire from the battery to the distribution block then splitting off to to 2 amps (8 guage wires as well). Seems like 4 guage should be there to distribution block then split to 2 8 guage wires. What u think. Other than that im wondering how? if that were the case, the amp would be starving for amps not overheating to produce more.
I've never heard of a high output alt causing an amp to run cooler. I wouldn't bother with that.
How is your ground wire on your amp? Is it connected to a clean piece of metal? And is ground from the amp as short as possible?
Also if you have the gain turned all the way up, that will cause issues too.
Just how hot is it getting, and how fast is it getting that hot?
If it's doing it after a few minutes, ya something is wrong. If it's after an hour, then that could be normal.
Installed a system in my thirdgen just to have tunes in the car and I believe I may have gone overboard and moved into territories beyond my understanding. Originally I installed a 425 watt pioneer 4 channel amp as an addition to my kenwood stereo system. The 2 pioneer 12's came with the car. I was told that I could use a 4 channel amp 2 channels to power the 6X9's and and two to supply the subs. However, after installing it sounded like crap. Maybe I was expecting too much!
After doing some more research, that scenario is not going to work, so I purchased a Pioneer 900 watt amp to control the subs only and let the 4 channel control the mids and tweeters.
That scenario just did not have the kick I was looking for.
The subs scenario is that there are two subs in a cabinet and two wires to each sub then to the amp. After reading more and learning more about impedance, I was sure that the 900 wall amp would allow me to bridge and use my sube under 4 ohm conditions. The amp also says I can use under 4 ohm conditions while bridged. There is even a bridged layout on the back of the amp so I can run this scenario.
I followed this video to the "T" in running the subs in series and back to 4 ohm so the amp could handle it without heating up the amp.
As soon as I did all of that the system was kicking ***! Just simply a great clear sound with kicking bass. However, I noticed the subs amp heating up like all the others.
Perhaps Im doing something wrong again!!! What I am concerned about is, is the wire coming from the battery (8 Guage) good enough to run both amps and the capacitor. I have a distribution block. 8 guage coming in and splitting it to 8 guage wires. In essence producing less power? If it was producing less power to the amp, would it not overheat? Im confused there.
Here is my setup.
I am trying to do it right, but so much info out there, not sure whats true and whats not. I am not a guy that needs souond do loud you can hear down the block nor do I need so much bass, I feel numb. Just want a good sound system. Can I do it with this layout? If so what way should I go?
Thanks in advance
tec
It has been a long time since I have done anything with stereos.
I didn't read all the info in all these posts, when it starts getting into 1 ohm, 2 ohm or 4 ohm, I haven't looked into this so I don't know.
When I was 18 I bought a 97 Camaro which was only 3 years old at the time (yes I'm old lol). However what I can tell you from my experience is this, for probably about $500 you can make a very nice sounding system in a 3rd or 4th gen (I probably spent $1500 but from what I see prices have radically declined).
From looking at your pictures it looks like (please don't take offense to this) a case of overkill and not knowing what to buy or do. It looks to me like you or someone bought all of your components from Wal-Mart. Why do you want to amp your 6x9s? what is the benefit? I have no experience with Pioneer amps but they are available at Wal-Mart so I stay away. The way it was explained to me (15 years ago) is that amp ratings are useless, much like advertised dyno ratings, the manufacturer can put whatever they want on it. A quick google search shows you could buy a 1600 watt Pioneer amplifier from best buy for $200 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer-...&skuId=7456388 or a 200 watt amp from Kicker for $249.99 http://www.kicker.com/40KX2002 . As it was explained to me there are two different classes of amps, the competition and the generic cheap ones. The competition amps many times are rated for way less than what they put out, while the generic consumer ones are just the opposite, bottom line you get what you pay for but I would stick with a reputable brand. Also what is the reason for the capacitor? I've never used one, I haven't had to but the way I look at it is the more connections you have the more loss you have. I had a buddy that was always kind of in competition with me (but I really didn't care so I'm not sure if it was a real competition lol) who bought one of these capacitors and claiming it would do so much and after he was done trying to impress me with it I asked him to bypass it and I couldn't notice any difference (of coarse he could) but his headlights still dimmed. Also that box looks horrible in my opinion. The only reason I bring it up is I wonder what thought went into building the rest of the box? I also see you have Pioneer subs (I believe) again I would stay away from those. Kenwood makes good units so I wouldn't be too afraid there.
In my opinion the secret to a good sounding stereo are in the details. For starters I know how much room is in the trunk well of a 4th gen and it looks smaller in a 3rd gen. How many cubic feet do those subwoofers need? In the systems I've built I always start with where the subs or sub (I'll get to that in a bit) will go and how much room is there, then I shop for subs by much cubic feet of air they require obviously from a reputable brand. And how many subs do you need? I honestly don't know the benefit of running multiple subs(I had just one in my 4th gen which was great but with the same amp and a factory head unit I had two subs in my 2001 Grand Prix and it wasn't nearly as impressive).
Then I build my own box to the square footage the sub or subs require so the subs can act the way they were designed to. I won't go into details on building the box but I can say this there are many $200 boxes I've seen that I wouldn't use. For $50 and a few hours you can build a nice looking box quality speaker box. If you want more details on building a box let me know.
The next thing I do is wire it up, the only real advise I have on this is to run your amp power wire and your RCA signal wires on opposite sides of the car, in my 4th gen I routed them one on each side of the car under the door sill trim and brought them together under the carpet. The next thing to do is tune the system.
You said you have a kenwood unit so hopefully it has 2 main features that I've needed. And they are crossover type functions (which means they will cut certain frequencies from certain speakers. In my 4th gen Camaro I set it up on my head unit so that the 4 main speakers would not get any signal lower than 120 Hz and my subwoofer would not get any signal higher than 50 Hz (I was missing out on any sound from the 50Hz to 120Hz range but I played around with the settings and couldn't tell a difference and nobody else said anything either). For final tuning I set the gain on the amp. To do this I used to put in the hardest sounding bass CD I had (2 Live Crews greatest hits worked great for me), and turn it up just a little louder than I was sure I ever would and turn the gain up on the amp until there was distortion and then back it off a bit. If you don't know what distortion is trust me you will know when you hear it.
I know there are many more things you can do. I don't pretend to be an expert but these are the things that have worked for me. If I were you I would return as many of the components you can and buy some reputable stuff. Also make sure you shut the hatch before making judgments on how it sounds, I remember a radical difference.
Well I've been into car audio for many years and can possibly offer some advice.
You indicated "I followed this video to the "T" in running the subs in series and back to 4 ohm so the amp could handle it without heating up the amp.
As soon as I did all of that the system was kicking ***! Just simply a great clear sound with kicking bass. However, I noticed the subs amp heating up like all the others."
So this makes me think your head unit and amps are likely set properly in relation to crossover points and equalization - and that your sub box is likely good enough as is.
The main issue seems to be with the sub amp and/or how the subs are wired. I'd look again at how you wired those subs since that amp should be fine even at louder volumes with a 4 ohm load coming out of a pair of subs. Instead of running both subs together off the amp in bridged mode at 4 ohm why don't you rewire the subs to 8 ohms each and run each one independently to your amp's left and right channels (so you will be running them in stereo mode). This will keep your amp running cooler and I'd bet sounding better for your purposes. After you do this (in order to have the same volume level coming from your subs as before) you may want to turn up your gains on the amp a little or turn up the bass (or subwoofer output) on your head unit.
AHHHHHHHHH! Now there is a suggestion! I will try that and see how that helps. The concept is a good one and sounds more logical. Thanks brother. Yeah, I feel like i have everything run right and my suspect was the amp. As I have gone to pioneers support site and many say this amp gets hot. Touch it and its hot. It does not go into "protect mode" so its not effecting the amp so far. If you look on the web there are many people talking about amps heating up, not just Pioneer amps so it seems more common as we try to pump more power to our subs. Too much if you ask me. I remember I had a pioneer super tuner and some self powered pioneer speakers back in the day that would blow you out of the car, but now its got to be more and more power and tweaking. Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I put my dash 4X6 speakers in the dash and what a great separation of sounds and just as clear as a bell. Great lows, awesome mids, and very pleasant high freqs.
It has been a long time since I have done anything with stereos.
I didn't read all the info in all these posts, when it starts getting into 1 ohm, 2 ohm or 4 ohm, I haven't looked into this so I don't know.
When I was 18 I bought a 97 Camaro which was only 3 years old at the time (yes I'm old lol). However what I can tell you from my experience is this, for probably about $500 you can make a very nice sounding system in a 3rd or 4th gen (I probably spent $1500 but from what I see prices have radically declined).
From looking at your pictures it looks like (please don't take offense to this) a case of overkill and not knowing what to buy or do. It looks to me like you or someone bought all of your components from Wal-Mart. Why do you want to amp your 6x9s? what is the benefit? I have no experience with Pioneer amps but they are available at Wal-Mart so I stay away. The way it was explained to me (15 years ago) is that amp ratings are useless, much like advertised dyno ratings, the manufacturer can put whatever they want on it. A quick google search shows you could buy a 1600 watt Pioneer amplifier from best buy for $200 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer-...&skuId=7456388 or a 200 watt amp from Kicker for $249.99 http://www.kicker.com/40KX2002 . As it was explained to me there are two different classes of amps, the competition and the generic cheap ones. The competition amps many times are rated for way less than what they put out, while the generic consumer ones are just the opposite, bottom line you get what you pay for but I would stick with a reputable brand. Also what is the reason for the capacitor? I've never used one, I haven't had to but the way I look at it is the more connections you have the more loss you have. I had a buddy that was always kind of in competition with me (but I really didn't care so I'm not sure if it was a real competition lol) who bought one of these capacitors and claiming it would do so much and after he was done trying to impress me with it I asked him to bypass it and I couldn't notice any difference (of coarse he could) but his headlights still dimmed. Also that box looks horrible in my opinion. The only reason I bring it up is I wonder what thought went into building the rest of the box? I also see you have Pioneer subs (I believe) again I would stay away from those. Kenwood makes good units so I wouldn't be too afraid there.
In my opinion the secret to a good sounding stereo are in the details. For starters I know how much room is in the trunk well of a 4th gen and it looks smaller in a 3rd gen. How many cubic feet do those subwoofers need? In the systems I've built I always start with where the subs or sub (I'll get to that in a bit) will go and how much room is there, then I shop for subs by much cubic feet of air they require obviously from a reputable brand. And how many subs do you need? I honestly don't know the benefit of running multiple subs(I had just one in my 4th gen which was great but with the same amp and a factory head unit I had two subs in my 2001 Grand Prix and it wasn't nearly as impressive).
Then I build my own box to the square footage the sub or subs require so the subs can act the way they were designed to. I won't go into details on building the box but I can say this there are many $200 boxes I've seen that I wouldn't use. For $50 and a few hours you can build a nice looking box quality speaker box. If you want more details on building a box let me know.
The next thing I do is wire it up, the only real advise I have on this is to run your amp power wire and your RCA signal wires on opposite sides of the car, in my 4th gen I routed them one on each side of the car under the door sill trim and brought them together under the carpet. The next thing to do is tune the system.
You said you have a kenwood unit so hopefully it has 2 main features that I've needed. And they are crossover type functions (which means they will cut certain frequencies from certain speakers. In my 4th gen Camaro I set it up on my head unit so that the 4 main speakers would not get any signal lower than 120 Hz and my subwoofer would not get any signal higher than 50 Hz (I was missing out on any sound from the 50Hz to 120Hz range but I played around with the settings and couldn't tell a difference and nobody else said anything either). For final tuning I set the gain on the amp. To do this I used to put in the hardest sounding bass CD I had (2 Live Crews greatest hits worked great for me), and turn it up just a little louder than I was sure I ever would and turn the gain up on the amp until there was distortion and then back it off a bit. If you don't know what distortion is trust me you will know when you hear it.
I know there are many more things you can do. I don't pretend to be an expert but these are the things that have worked for me. If I were you I would return as many of the components you can and buy some reputable stuff. Also make sure you shut the hatch before making judgments on how it sounds, I remember a radical difference.
Thanks for your opinion! It is appreciated. I have used pioneer products since back in the day. Early 70's. Pioneer was always a great product and always made great sound. Pioneer super tuner was a great head unit, in my opinion. As far as why an amp is needed for mids, and bass, if your using it to produce, clean sound and not distorting the signal, using one amp for bass (Low freq's) and another for mids and highs gives me more flexibility. The capacitor allows readily available power to the subs as I call them, without drawing directly from the battery and dimming my lights and such. Its a storage area for power needed. As far as power chord its run on the right side of the car and the rcas run on the left side. I have a crossover feature in the amp but I use the built in crossover in the amp thats controlling the mids and highs on needed channels. The amp getting hot is a thing that this amp just does. Its known by reading through the many posts. I have the subs run in series, and parallel to match 4 ohm amp, so I know my impedance is correct. Its clearly the amp trying to keep up with the demand. I have installed a few systems in my day and this setup is quality sound and no distortion. Im happy with all the components as I am not trying to produce sound for canada to hear. I just want a nice sounding stereo, and that I have. I have heard from many that the amp simply gets hot, especially as it needs power. Im going to try a couple of fans to get the hot air out and new air in. If it continues to be a problem, ill get a better amp. Ill tell you what dude, dont sell Pioneer short! A few things i have are from wal-mart, but Best Buy, and others sell those same components. Arnt many places to buy these things. When you say reputable stuff, what do you mean? Yes, having the hatch closed is the best way to judge the sound. Again, this system gets alot of attention. I am happy with it. And I didnt have to spend 5 g on it. My total investment is like 600.
__________________
Tec
Thanks for your opinion! It is appreciated. I have used pioneer products since back in the day. Early 70's. Pioneer was always a great product and always made great sound. Pioneer super tuner was a great head unit, in my opinion. As far as why an amp is needed for mids, and bass, if your using it to produce, clean sound and not distorting the signal, using one amp for bass (Low freq's) and another for mids and highs gives me more flexibility. The capacitor allows readily available power to the subs as I call them, without drawing directly from the battery and dimming my lights and such. Its a storage area for power needed. As far as power chord its run on the right side of the car and the rcas run on the left side. I have a crossover feature in the amp but I use the built in crossover in the amp thats controlling the mids and highs on needed channels. The amp getting hot is a thing that this amp just does. Its known by reading through the many posts. I have the subs run in series, and parallel to match 4 ohm amp, so I know my impedance is correct. Its clearly the amp trying to keep up with the demand. I have installed a few systems in my day and this setup is quality sound and no distortion. Im happy with all the components as I am not trying to produce sound for canada to hear. I just want a nice sounding stereo, and that I have. I have heard from many that the amp simply gets hot, especially as it needs power. Im going to try a couple of fans to get the hot air out and new air in. If it continues to be a problem, ill get a better amp. Ill tell you what dude, dont sell Pioneer short! A few things i have are from wal-mart, but Best Buy, and others sell those same components. Arnt many places to buy these things. When you say reputable stuff, what do you mean? Yes, having the hatch closed is the best way to judge the sound. Again, this system gets alot of attention. I am happy with it. And I didnt have to spend 5 g on it. My total investment is like 600.
__________________
Tec
First off I want to apologize, I did not mean to sound like a jerk. It was late when I wrote this and didn't proof read it before I posted it.
I forgot to put in there I love Pioneer's head units, in fact I won't have anything but Pioneer for a head unit. But I won't buy them from Wal-Mart. Like I say though I won't touch their amps (maybe they're OK but I stay away from them). A couple years ago I sold my old Kicker ZR 240 (Which were awesome unfortunately they don't make them anymore) to a kid who had a Pioneer amp which had some crazy rating like 1000 watts or something, he initially didn't want it because he said "I have a 1000 watt amp why would I go down to 240 watts?" I told him what I had heard on amps, with some being competition amps having lower ratings and said we could hook it up and if he didn't like it he didn't have to take it. Neither of us could believe the difference in sound.
As for reputable brands, (some may disagree and that's ok) I stay away from the big box stores. As I said I love Pioneer's head units but I wonder if they branched out to far? They offer lots of products on their web site. When I think of reputable brands I think of Kicker, they make subs, amps and component speakers. That's all they do and they do it well. There are other good brands but I've always had good luck with everything Kicker.
Sorry about jumping on you about your components but I was just going off of you saying you didn't want a system to shake your car apart. I guess for that I don't see a need for a capacitor or 2 separate amps. I should say though any system I've done I want it to be heard and not seen, so the less components the better in my case. Also for asking about the need to amplify the 6x9s. I'm not sure if what I was saying made sense but in the systems, I've done With a good head unit (The ones I've used have all been 45w x 4, except for my 01 grand prix which I used the stock head unit) I've done I don't let any lows go to the component speakers, and I haven't had any distortion from the other speakers. I just let the sub do the work for the lows.
Like most things you could ask 10 different people how to build a good stereo system and get 10 different answers.
I'm happy with my Pioneer amp, but for subs I'd have suggested he went with their D series amps to push them. Other than that, sounds like a decent system. I don't like capacitors, they're band-aids for weak power. If you have a good alternator it shouldn't matter.
Hey Hardon, No worries brother! Dont sweat it, no offense man. Its all good. Thtanner, I agree. I was looking at the d series block. I was thinking way too much power, lol. I also agree on the alternator. Someone here made a comment about high powered alternators, Their are higher output alts for these kinds of situations. And, yes its important to have a good alt or your system is going to work very hard, working hard = HOT!
Finally got it all wired in and I put the interior back in. What a project! Grey interior to black was a long tedious project but great fun.
I think I solved the issue. Although I was bridged at 4ohms using negative of one channel and positive of another, I switched the rca's around and what a pleasant surprise. Very little heat. Warmth is more like it. Slightly warm instead of HOT! And I mean Hot!
04-23-2016, 10:53 AM
