S_Johnson

Ok, so, I've googled until my fingers are sore, I swear, and I can't understand why I can't get my speakers to sound right.

Background info:

I've always been annoyed at how my firebird has like ZERO mid-base range sound, no matter what I do. I have 2 10" subs in the back, so I have great BASS range, but when I listen to music, there is an obvious lack of mid-range base. Think of it as rock bass drum range, or bass guitar range, as opposed to techno bass thumps (which the subs do great). Then I step into my roommate's generic civic, and his stock no-frills sound system has mid-bass in spades.

I recently replaced the speakers and head unit in my dad's miata, I used an almost identical pioneer head unit to what is already in my firebird, and I used "decent" pioneer 5x7 speakers for the doors. It sounded GREAT. It had fantastic mid-base range, nice full sound. It was VERY close to the sound quality I find in nice newer cars, etc... (obviously, no super-low range, but that's to be expected, and I already HAVE that in my car).

So I was like: "ok, fine" and I bought matching Pioneer TS-A1605C 6-1/2 component sets, 4 of them. I made custom mounting plates for the back 6x9 speaker spots, that basically turns the whole quarter panel into an enclosure (that vents into the door-jam, just like the original speakers).

I did this in the front (attached photo). I used a universal mounting pod, and the back is mostly open into the door, so, the door should be working as the enclosure, just like all the advice I find online for getting good midbass (the back should be working awesome as well).

And yet... nothing. I have to CRANK the bass settings to get anything out of them, and yet they are still lackluster in the extreme. They will rattle the HELL out of the door if I want, but they won't actually produce any SOUND. It's driving me insane. I even checked to make sure they weren't wired out of sync, and cancelling each other out.

I don't understand why my speakers do this, and why any generic new-ish car sounds 10x better when it comes to mid-bass. According to everything I've read, this setup should be perfect.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

Just a thought. I been Alpine for 35+ years, so this may not apply. I know Alpine has settings for EVERYTHING buried in there head units; you can dig into the settings pretty deep. Try going into your recievers setting, get the manual out if you have it and see what the default settings are. From what you desribe, you should have an awesome sounding system. Something might be in the "OFF", BYPASS, DEFAULT MODE, CUSTOM or something. My Alpine has a MID RANGE setting (also buried in the choices). Once you get it set up, you're good to go.
Head units have come a long way. It no longer BASS and TREBLE! HTH's

S_Johnson

Thanks! I'm pretty sure it's 100% on the default settings, and at one point, I swapped my head unit with the one in the aforementioned Miata, and it sounded exactly the same is his head unit, so I think that rules out settings and/or messed up head unit.

But I'll double check, just in case.

It's starting to drive me batty. Having the subs helps a lot, but it just gives it a very obvious empty spot between mid range sound, and bass from the subs. If I turn off the subs, and play classic rock, or whatever, the bass drum hits are totally lacking, and yet, you can turn up the bass settings until the speaker rattles the whole door, but it still makes almost no bass sound compared to just any generic new-ish car. My ex's 99 accord had better mid bass -.-

GASPEDDLER

iTrader: (2)

Bob, some days I miss my 80's technology

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

OMG Arnold!!!!! I HAD ONE OF THOSE PUPPIES!!!!!! I miss it too. Sparkomatic, LOVE IT!
Yeah, when I moved from Kraco to Sparkomatic, I was king crap! THEN Alpine, well, certain parts of me had to ride shotgun....so to speak!

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

S_Johnson

Do you have some pinched wires maybe. Just reaching here.....

S_Johnson

I mean, I don't KNOW for sure that I don't, but this effects all 4 channels, that seems... unlikely.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Did the Miata have a sub / are the speakers playing full range?

The B pillar may be too big of an enclosure... fabbing some kind of enclosure for that speaker would help... also, if it's rattling the door, that's wasted energy or the bass you are seeking... Sound deadening material would help, but a stiff enclosure even more...

I've heard some 6.5's and 6x9's that I was amazed there wasn't a sub in the car... it can be done...

S_Johnson

The miata didn't have anything but the head unit and two 5x7's I installed.

I did a bit more investigating yesterday, and it turns out, the ones in the back sound pretty darn good, but I don't notice because the front sounds so awful, it washes them out. So clearly, something is up with how they are mounted in the front.

I will do some more testing, and make sure that I'm not a moron who has one of the fronts wired out of phase, that would explain everything.

Another question: How much does it matter that they are being driven by the head unit and not an amp? They are rated for like, 60 RMS, and the head unit puts out like, 14 RMS.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

Usually you can run the fronts with the head unit power and the Rears/Subs on a 4 Channel amp.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

The amp built into the head unit is not as high quality (clean / clear signal) as a dedicated quality amp... You don't need top of the line, but for sure not bottom either... I've seen amps with metal plates inside them to make them seem heavier / as if weight makes them feel / sound better.

If your speakers are rated for 60 RMS, ideally you want an amp that can power past that clearly, say 75 or 80 RMS.... Also, a crossover will allow them to play louder (since you have subs) you don't want your 6.5's trying to reproduce 20 hertz bass, between 60 / 120 hz (set / listen / test them...) Everything (subs) will play & sound better and louder crossedover properly. Most amps now have crossovers...

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Oh... I've seen foam baffles for speakers... not quite as good as a solid enclosure, but can help some...

S_Johnson

Hmm... I think that might make a big difference. I think they are trying to produce the super-low sound, and that's why they rattle the door so much.

Can I get a brief explanation of what a crossover is? I don't actually know...

S_Johnson

I was thinking about getting this amp, so I can have it filter out the low-bass from the 4 6.5 speakers, and give them the 60RMS they are rated for: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eries/GM-A6604

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

20 hz, your speaker vibrates 20 times a second... low bass.
20,000 hz your tweeter vibrates to make high pitched sounds, cymbals, etc...

That is the range for human hearing and most speakers are able to reproduce...

1 speaker is not ideal at playing that full range...

Sub is good for 20 - 100 hz.... (not exact numbers, but so you get it)
Mid range 100 through 5000...
Tweets 5000 to 20,000...

A cross over breaks up and feeds the proper hz signal to your speakers...
For subs, Low Pass allows the low up to 100hz (adjustable) to go to subs and no higher pitched sounds...
For mids / highs, a high pass allows 100hz and up (adjustable) to go to midrange, so they're not busting a !@#$ to play bass...

You can buy amps with them built in, also, most head units have them too.
Their efficiency is measure by a slope... a 32 db per octave slope is better than a 6db slope... see which has a higher slope for crossover points (amp or head unit) and use that one...

I would go 5 or 6 channel... as opposed to 4 channel for 2 front, 2 back and subs... if you put the 2 rear and subs on the 2 channels, ohm load changes and cannot use crossover (unless you use passive, which waste energy too)... a 5 or 6 channel amp will allow you to tune the sound, fader, etc...

All this audio talk is getting me excited to go listen to a kick *** stereo

Rafael

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

That amp...
Power Output: 60 Watts RMS x 4 Channels (4 ohms ≤ 1% THD+N)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 78 dBa (Reference: 1 Watt into 4 ohms)

The THD seems ok, but the signal to noise seems a bit low... check other amps and see what their signal to noise is, higher is better... be sure to get a nice set of RCA's to go from the deck to the amps, do not go speaker out wires from head unit to amp, which would defeat all the $$$ you spend to make it sound good...

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Or a 4 channel for mids, and a seperate amp for subs... Does your deck have front / rear / subs RCA output?

S_Johnson

Thanks so much for the info!

I was looking at a 4 channel, because my subs are already on their own amp, with a low-pass filter already.

And yeah, my deck has multiple RCA pre-amp outputs. I'm going to get a new one at some point anyways though, I had a short a long time ago that burned out one of the RCA outs on it, so I would need to replace it before I can run another amp for the 4 normal speakers.

S_Johnson

Ok, so I looked more at the specs for that amp, and it looks like only 2 of the 4 channels are adjustable HPF? I don't think that will work for me.

S_Johnson

Nevermind, after checking closer, it looks like one channel is just set to "normal speaker" range and the other one you can adjust. Looks like the non-adjustable is set for a 80hz HPF, that should be about perfect for my 6.5's or at least pretty close.

Firechicken86

iTrader: (1)

I've been wanting to add door mounted speakers to my car and that enclosure looks great. Do you have a link as to where you got it? cheers!

S_Johnson

Ok, so, after extensive testing, yes, the fronts are crap. It's almost funny how terrible they sound compared to the rears. It's like when you hold a set of headphones 2 inches from your ears, they sound like that. Just totally devoid of any punch, and very "tinny" sound. Just awful.

So here's my question: is the problem that the door isn't working as an enclosure (it really should though...)? Or is it that the mount isn't solid at all. I have those plastic speaker mounts just mounted to the door panel itself, so it's a rather flimsy mount situation. I'm about to re-do a new set of door panels (for other reasons), and I don't want to cut holes in them for speakers if I'm not going to be able to get them to work right.

Also, Firechicken86, I got them from crutchfield, but given my experience I'm having right now, I would think carefully before buying them, having them mounted like I do clearly doesn't work.