1987CutlassMan

Hey guys,

It's been a while, but I wanted to let you know that I FINALLY got the distributor loose! It took a week of constantly spraying it with PB blaster, and I took the cap/rotor off, and had a pair of vise grips on the 'lip' of the distributor, and kept hitting it with a hammer. Yesterday, I did it again, and I could've sworn it started to move, so I hit the vise grips the other way, and I could actually see it move! It took a few more times, going back and forth, and it finally started coming loose!

After I got it working nicely, I soaked it with "MotorKote" spray lube, and put it all back together. Hopefully, if I ever have to change it again, I'll be able to move it!

The cap and rotor weren't that good, so I took the one's from my H/O (MSD), and put them on instead. I also used a black Sharpie, and put it in the 'groove', to make the timing mark easier to see. Now, all I have left to do, is put on new wires, and I'm going to try E-3 plugs (I normally use Bosch platinum).

The one important thing I found, is when I was messing around, trying to get the distributor loose. I found a couple of vacuum lines, and they didn't go to anything!!!! They were attached to the box on the driver's side valve cover (don't know what that does!), but I took the lines off, and put caps on.

I started up the car, warmed it up, and put the jumper wire on the ALDL. With the check engine light flashing, went to work, adjusting the timing. Decided to try what you guys were talking about, so I went to 22 degrees. I double checked the TPS (perfect), idle (didn't change, still 550 in drive), but, the big news, is the dwell is a LOT better (from 45-54%). I don't know if that is from the timing, or plugging up those vacuum lines, but the dwell is a lot more stable, not bouncing around like it did. It doesn't go up and down as drastically as it did (i.e. 9.7%, up to 63%). Now, it stays pretty level, around 50%. I didn't try to see if those lines actually had vacuum on them, I just capped them up.

And, all I have to say, is HOLY S**T!!!!! It's like a whole new engine! I thought you guys were full of it, with the timing being off that little, but, you were right! I have 2 black marks leaving my garage to prove it! I've NEVER been able to do that!!!!! I always thought that kid on Horsepower TV was a little nuts, adjusting the timing when the engine's on the dyno one degree at a time. Now, I understand why he does it.

I didn't go too nuts, at 22 degrees, did I? The emission sticker says 20 degrees.

Now, lets hope the mpg's will get better! I'll have to fill it up, from doing all the 'brake torques', and doing acceleration runs, this tank's mpg's will not be good!

I want to thank you guys, if it wasn't for you, I would've never got the car this far! Now, it's a real pleasure to drive!

THANKS AGAIN!

John Nielsen

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

Yep, timing can make a big difference! Glad to hear you got everything sorted out. You should be fine with 22* base timing, but you should run 89 octane just to be safe. Mine's set at 23-24* and I run 93 just to be on the safe side because I have more than stock compression.

As for those vac lines, look at your emmissions decal on your radiator shroud. That black box on the rear drivers side valve cover contains 3 solenoids ( ECM controlled of course ). Each solenoid has a vacuum line input and a vacuum line for an output.

One solenoid controls the EGR valve ( you need to run this one for sure ), one controls the Rear Vacuum Break ( the vacuum diaphragm on the passenger/rear of the carb ), and one controls the Idle Load Compensator on the drivers side front of the carb.

You do not have to plug the solenoids thenselves since there's no vacuum going to them if the vac lines are not connected. Just make sure the EGR one is hooked up as per the decal. The others you don't really need.

PM me on Oldspower if you want a couple other very minor 307 performance tweaks or more detailed info on 'the black box'.

GirchyGirchy

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the bump but thought this might tie in better with what I need than starting a new thread. I found this one from Google and was hoping you guys might be able to help me out.

Like the OP, I have a non-F-Body car, so I do apologize. The car is an '85 Chevy Caprice Classic that serves primarily as my winter/beater car. Recently I had the carb rebuilt by SMI and it needs some touching up, and I'm not the best carb guy (that's why I sent the thing out rather than trying it myself) but hopefully I can get this thing smooth again.

Car's back story - purchased used in 2000 from an old lady. The thing has pinged since day one, and IIRC, our family mechanic retarded the timing a bit to try to compensate. It didn't seem to help so I just ignore it. A couple of years back, the choke started acting up (very high idle when cold, wouldn't kick out) and it took me a while to get it sent in for a rebuild. I got it back and while the choke issue is fixed, it's just not very smooth any more.

It's an E4ME with an electric choke, which they did replace, along with the TPS. I had a shop adjust the TV while I had them replacing the plugs and wires and the shifting is better, but still not as it was. Plus it's locking out in 3rd gear which it never did before (TH700-R4). But that's a lesser issue.

So, here's the basics of what is going on. It starts and initially runs great, until it gets warmed up and (I'm guessing) goes into closed-loop mode. Then there's a hesitation when taking off from a stop, it generally bogs when trying to accelerate, and here recently, it's started pinging more. Which is strange, since it made me realize that the pinging had mostly gone away when I first started running with the rebuilt carb. And it's darn near impossible to smoothly accelerate, it kind of 'hunts' throughout the process.

I do have an OBDI scanner with live readout that I can use for troubleshooting, but do not have either of the Thexton tools. Should I try the main basics from this thread to start with, or is there something I should look at first? I'd like to do as little as possible now because it's freakin' cold outside and all I have is an unheated garage. So I'd rather not be pulling bits of the carb apart for now.

I'm guessing I should check the timing first to get it to factory spec, but that still makes me wonder why the car would run as smoothly as it did before prior to the rebuild.

Thanks for any help, and let me know if you need some more info!

Brian

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Set the timing first, because it can affect other adjustments, but other adjustments won't affect it.

There is a sticky in the top section of this forum with the factory manual pages posted. Take the time to read through it, especially the adjustments.

The idle mixture screws should be set first. Just set them to the prescribed turns and leave them.

Idle speed should be next. Then IAB (which affects MCS duty cycle, which should be 50%), then TPS. You can get all of those read-outs from your live scanner.

TCC lock-up in 3rd gear is allowed by the ECM. It won't happen if you've got things out of whack like timing or TPS setting or TV adjustment.

1987CutlassMan

I found someone on Ebay selling the Thextron tools, but this guy wants WAY too much for these! I'm sure if you keep looking, you will find one reasonable. I believe I only paid something like $10.00 for mine (I can't remember now).

Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-Co...#ht_2033wt_958

Here's the link for the whole list of Thextron tools:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_trkparm...6.c0.m14.l1514

Unfortunately, if you punch in just the THX362, then this guy is all that comes up. I'd do more searching on the internet, as this guy is outrageous! I'm sure you can get it cheaper somewhere else! I got the flexible tool for adjusting the idle mixture screws from some online store, but it's been so long ago, I can't remember anymore!

Just remember, you need the tool kit no THX362.

The bigger one pictured you don't need, but the smaller one is the one you need for the TPS, and IAB.

Once you have those tools, and can adjust those sensors, you should be able to 'dial' it in!

Good luck,
John

DoubleV

The TPS voltage is first thing I would check and since you have a scanner it's super easy too.

I'm sure the rest of the carb could use some adjustments as well as five7kid has stated.

juansupreme

QUOTE=1987CutlassManAlso, what is this "TV" cable you talk about? I don't have a video monitor on the dash, so that won't work.

John



Just had to laugh at this 1

GirchyGirchy

Thanks for the tips guys, I ended up selling the car a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if the ECM really did re-learn everything after a while, but performance improved significantly. Much better day to day performance, only issue that remained was a tendency to bog a bit at lower RPMs. I drove it until I went to change the tranny fluid but couldn't get that one last bolt out under the crossmember, noticed the exhaust was rusting out and the rear brake lines should probably be changed. So I said screw it and got a '98 C1500 instead, and some guy now has it as his first car.

I also returned the two Thexton tools I'd bought from Amazon...I'd forgotten all about them and had never even opened the box they came in!

Thanks again!

Chuck84TA

I have to say that this thread has opened my eyes to qjet tuning more than any other post!!! - definitely stick worthy!!!

Thank you!!

Chuck

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Yes, can we consolidate and sticky this thread?

1987CutlassMan

Sure, no problem! Unfortunately, I don't own the car anymore (and I still kick myself for selling it!), and I even went "old school" on my '84 Hurst/Olds, and bypassed the computer, and put an older q-jet on it. Mainly because that great scanner I bought, that could do the pre-OBDII cars stopped working, and it would have cost a fortune to fix.

But yes, this is a very informative post, and I consulted it quite a bit when I was tuning that '87.

Thanks to everyone who contributed on this post for all the help!

John

Smunions

Hey I hope you will help me also. I have an 87 Cutlass Supreme my grand mother bought brand new. After she died my mom got it and drove it very little. The car has always been garage kept and only has 86000 miles on it with zero rust. My mom died about 2 years ago and now it has come to me.

While my mom had it it started running bad and the guy she took it to said it needed a new carb. He took the Computer Q-jet off and put on an Edlebrock carb. He left all the wiring just laying around for the Q-jet. There are like 3 wiring plugs that I suppose plug into the Q-jet carb. It really runs like crap now and I would like to put it back the way it should be.

Is there any way any of you could help me in that endeavor. I know quite a bit about older cars as I have a drag race Camaro I used to race back in the early 2000`s but now it just sets in the garage.

I would like to put a computer Q-jet back on it and I understand there may be several carbs depending on the VIN# which one to use to make it all work properly again. I have found an air cleaner for it on ebay but I dont want to undertake this project and spend a bunch of money with out some help from someone that knows about this setup.

As I have been looking at doing this for several months now and have looked all over the internet for some help, this is the only place I have found that sounds like the people here know what they are talking about and could help me.

Thanks for your time.

navy02ws6

That might be a tough one as it seems no one cares about keeping those cars stock, or even nice at this point.

At any rate, I'm assuming it still has the original 307 in it, and being an Olds engine, that means it's supposed to have a front injet q-jet and not a side inlet q-jet, so keep that in mind when looking for a replacement as most of them are side inlet. Ideally, you'll want one with the correct stamping number, which is stamped vertically on the driver's side of the carburetor body. If I'm doing my numbers correctly, it should be a 1708725_, with an additional even number digit on the end. But don't quote me on that as I can't find a source to back it up. I wouldn't get hung up on finding one with a correct stamp number though as most of them have been rebuilt with different parts at this point, making the stamp number useless. I'd recommend buying one that's already rebuilt, WITH A WARRANTY. Here's a place I found with just a Google search http://www.quadrajetcarbs.com/carbur...bTypeName=Olds

If you want to learn more about quadrajets, this is by far the best book on the market . Lots of diagrams, tuning tips, etc.

Smunions

I really appreciate the quick reply. I also found one from a company called nation Carburetor for $209.00. They seem pretty knowledgeable about it. http://www.nationalcarburetors.com/l...partnum=nd4469 . As I have done a bit of research on this topic when I buy one of these carbs will the TPS already be set or will I have to do that and maybe some other adjustments as well. I have an old snap-on tool that was designed to adjust the q-jet idle mixture screws. Are they still on this carb?

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Cliff Ruggles is a maestro with these carbs.

Do you know if the mechanic removed the original distributor when he removed the factory carb? If he did not, he did a half *** job and needs to quit. Factory distributor needs the factory carb because they both use the ecm. Take any one of the three out and it won't run right.

Smunions

Yes I checked it has a OEM dist. Actually has what I think are the original cap and wires also... LOL

Who is Cliif R. with? I am sorry but I do not know.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

www.cliffshighperformance.com

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Www.cliffshighperformance.com
Or just google cliff Ruggles. He build my carb.

So if it has an original dizzy and not original carb, there is your problem. Well 80% of it anyway. Ecm needs signals from the carb it's not getting. Or he disconnected the carb and ecm leaving the Dizzy without any control. Not good. You need a computer controlled Quadrajet put back on as step one. Is the ECM hooked up?

navy02ws6

Mixture screws are sealed from the factory on all electronic Q-Jets. You shouldn't have to adjust them if the carb was rebuilt correctly.

sonjaab

Ozz is CORRECT!