1987CutlassMan

Hi,

I'm new to this site, and unfortunately, I do not own any F-Body cars. Your site was recommended by Brian at TBI Chips.com.

I own an '87, and an '84 Olds Cutlass (the '84 is a Hurst/Olds). I recently had both carbs rebuilt by Vans Electrical, in Indianapolis. He told me that after I get the carbs back, that they would have to be "tuned" by a hand/held tuner. I have been searching everywhere on the net for something I can use, but can't find anything. The only electronic controls on these carbs, are air/fuel mixture, and throttle position. Brian said that what's happening is that the ignition timing curve is off, that is why the car is not only suffering in performance, but is using more gas than the old carb. He told me that most people do away with the ECM, and use a vacuum advance distributor, and an older quadrajet. But, since I just spent $560.00 to get both of these carbs rebuilt, going that route will not work financially for me.

Does anyone know what I have to do to get these carbs working right? I've put the one on the '87, and it runs smooth, but the performance is about the same as the old carb, and like I said, the mpg's have gone down a couple. Also, it seems that the transmission does not shift as smoothly as it did with the old carb. The torque converter seems to lock/unlock more often, too. With the old carb, once I got the TC to lock, I could accelerate from around 45-70 mph, and the tach would stay around 2000 the whole time. That doesn't happen anymore. I currently have the motor/trans out of the '84 "freshening" it up. I won't be doing anything to that for a while. But, since the '87 is more of a "daily driver", I would like to get this straight.

Thanks, John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

Normally we say "third gen f-body only". But, since what you're asking is the same as for 3rd gens, we'll let it be.

First, set the ignition timing. Disconnect the computer connection to the distributor (should be a flat 4-wire connector on the '84, not sure if it's the same on the '87 or a single wire like 3rd gens). Set the timing to the hood decal spec (typically somewhere between 0 and 6 degrees BTDC). Then reconnect the computer for the rest of the adjustments.

Next, set the idle speed to spec. Should be warmed up and in gear. It would be better to use a scanner like Auto Xray or a diagnostic tach than the tach in the dash (often not accurate).

Then, check and set the throttle position sensor. Most likely the adjustment plug was left out by the rebuilder (if you're lucky). Either check the voltage between the middle and bottom lead of the TPS connector (has to be connected to make the measurement, so you need to probe the wires), or again, a scanner makes this much easier. If the 6th digit of your VIN is G, H, or 6, set it to .48 volts at idle (AC off, choke fully open and not on the high idle cam), if F or L, .41 volts.

Finally, you need to set the idle air bleed, which affects the MCS duty cycle. If you don't have a scanner, you need a dwell meter set on the 6 cylinder scale. There are no other choices, you need either a scanner or dwell meter. With the engine warm and idling, you're looking for a 50% duty cycle, which translates to 30 degrees dwell with the dwell meter. Make the adjustments small and wait several seconds between adjustments for the system to react to each move.

Full information is available here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...e-rebuild.html

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Oh, meant to add that there is no way a non-computer q-jet and vacuum/mechanical advance distributor will get better mileage (or power) than a properly functioning computer q-jet.

Make sure your TV cable is adjusted correctly. It's very simple to do. It should be adjusted any time the carb has been off the engine.

If the car is still sluggish after all of the adjustments are correct, you can bump the base timing up a couple of a degrees at a time. Do that until there is no improvement, or you get pinging. Then back it down 2 degrees to the previous best.

1987CutlassMan

There are no other choices, you need either a scanner or dwell meter.

That is the $64,000 question. Where can I get a scanner like you are talking about? I have an old "Sun" meter, that measures RPM, dwell (points), and a bunch of different tests. Can I use that? I can get you the model number, if you want.

I also have a laptop, if there is something out there that is downloadable. But, I can't find anyone who has such a program.

I actually have the same book as the link you gave me. The rebuilder did "punch out" the blocks for the air/fuel adjustment screws. But, even those take a special tool (that was mentioned in the book). Are those tools readily available? Where?

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

Also, what is this "TV" cable you talk about? I don't have a video monitor on the dash, so that won't work.

John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

I have checked these Auto XRay scanners, but unfortunately, I don't have the money for one of them. I was looking at downloadable programs on the net for less (around $220.00 for program, and cable). Will those do the same thing? Will these Auto XRay scanners also change (or 'tune') the ECM?

John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

The TV cable ( throttle valve ) is the cable that goes from your carb linkage to your tranny.

I would recomend you invest in a scanner such as one of the Autoxray units found on ebay all the time. You want to make sure you get one compatible with OBD1. Do this and you'll have your dwell and TPS voltage much easily accessed.

Some of the special tools required ( made by Thexton ) are still available on ebay and some other sights. For a quicky tune, leave the idle mixture screws where they are ( they were probabaly never moved ) and turn the air bleed on the top of the carb out about 4 1/2 turns from all the way down.

Make sure your timing is set properly ( set it with computer grounded ) which is 20* @ 1100rpm.

DoubleV

You do not need a top of the line Autoxray unit. You just need one that'll work with OBD1. Mine cost me about $200 off ebay.

No, a scanner will not retune your ECM.

Remember, you can use a cheap multimeter unit to probe the TPS wires to check your voltage. Also, you can use this unit to check dwell too ( if it has a dwell function ) buy using the bright green plug in fron of the engine. I'll bet you were wondering 'what the heck is this damn green plug for anyway' weren't you?!

1987CutlassMan

Yes, actually, I was wondering what the heck that was!!!! Thanks!!! Both cars have that. On the '84, I thought it was something from the air pollution stuff that was taken off. But, on the '87 everything was on there, and the plug was still there! What is that supposed to plug into, anyway? A special GM scanner? Or will one of these Auto Xray ones you talk about have the connector on it?

But, even if I do purchase one of these scanners, and run the tests (like the voltage, and dwell), if they're off, how do you adjust it? That's why I was asking if the scanners also program. If they don't, then how do you adjust?

Another question I have is, what did you mean by testing it with the computer grounded? Are you saying to put another ground on, or what?

Also, what 'special tools' are you referring to? Are there more than the one for adjusting the air/fuel mixture?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but the '80's cars were rather foreign to me. I'm more used to either the '70's cars (no computer), or the newer, OBDII cars (where you can purchase a programmer to change parameters). OBDI is still a 'gray' area for me.

Thanks,
John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

The green plug is for hooking up a dwell meter ( or multimeter with a dwell function ). A scanner like the Autotxray does not use this plug. Scanners like this instead plug into the big black plug/port underneath the dash/ashtray. This port is called the ALDL...assembly line diagnostic link. Also called ALCL...assembly line communication link.

Quote:

But, even if I do purchase one of these scanners, and run the tests (like the voltage, and dwell), if they're off, how do you adjust it? That's why I was asking if the scanners also program. If they don't, then how do you adjust?

This is where you need the special tools.

Quote:

Another question I have is, what did you mean by testing it with the computer grounded? Are you saying to put another ground on, or what?

You know how you unplug the vaccum advance to check/set the base timing on an older car? Well grounding the ECM in these computer cars would be like doing that. To do it, all you do is stick a paperclip between the A and B terminals in the ALDL. All this is doing is preventing the ECM from applying additional timing advance when setting your BASE timing.

Quote:

Also, what 'special tools' are you referring to? Are there more than the one for adjusting the air/fuel mixture?

There are a few, but the only ones you're likely to need are the ones for adjusting your idle mixture screws ( a small flexable screwdriver with a weird head ) and the one to adjust your TPS voltage...which so happens is the same tool used to adjust the rich/lean stops. Your lean stop SHOULD have been set by the rebuilder but you may need to adjust the rich stop which of course would require the tool. This tool is made by Thexton.

Note, for a quicky tune where you have no way of knowing the dwell, adjust idle mixture screws to about 4 turns out from lightly seated ( you need the special tool remember ) and the air bleed about 4.5 turns out from lightly seated ( all you need is a flathead screwdriver for this ).

naf

iTrader: (7)

You set the timing with the four-wire plug disconnected from the rear of the dist on the 87. Set to 0-6 degrees then re-connect and ensure the timing advances correctly. At idle with the dist connected it should look to be around 20-24 degrees advanced and increase with rpms. The exact amount isn't as important as ensuring it is advancing smoothly. A stepped increase is the ICM's default response to no signal from the ECM.

A regular Dwell Meter is fine for setting the IAB. You'll need a Volt Meter for the TPS. You may get away without any special tools (I usually use a roll pin lightly tapped over the TPS adjustment screw).

Your ccc-qjet adjusts the mixture based on O2 readings. It varies the Dwell of the Mixture Control Solenoid (MCS) which controls how much time the primary rods are down in the jets, restricting fuel. Higher dwell is a response to a rich condition (more time down-less fuel). You want to set the dwell near 50% (or 30 the degree setting on a dwell meter set at the V6 scale (half of the full 60 degree sweep). This gives the ECM the most range each way to adjust dwell rich or lean under other driving conditions. If everything is working properly, and the dwell is responding to O2 readings, you should see the dwell meter needle waver slightly back and forth at idle perhaps +/- 5 degrees or so. This should be done with the engine fully warmed up because the O2 sensor must reach around 600 degrees before it will start sending a signal the ECM understands.

If the dwell is responding to changes in mixture, a rag choking the airhorn should cause it to increase (lean response to a rich condition), it can be adjusted by turning the Idle Air Bleed screw in the top of the airhorn. Turning the IAB out allows more air into the mixture (leaner). The IAB should be adjusted to get it 'closest' to 50%-remember it should always be varying slightly.

If the system isn't responding to changes in mixture after adjusting the IAB up and down AND we know the O2 is warm enough, check a few things before proceeding:

Does the MCS click with the key in 'run'? It should click up and down inside the carb 10 times a second (duty cycle). It's dwell is the amount of time per second it's in the down position-note that because it must come up 10 times a second, it can't achieve 100% dwell.

Is the MCS travel set to 1/8"? With the IAB removed you should be able to set a thin rod and manually click the MCS up and down and measure it's travel.

Has the TPS been set properly? You already did this after you set the curb idle and timing. Set it to near 0.40 volts and put a little RTV in the plug well to keep it set. It may not stay EXACTLY at 0.40 volts on a DVM, 0.02+/- is probably fine. Although a symptom of a bad TPS is a torque converter that doesn't stay locked at steady cruise. If the TPS is bad it may send a widely varying voltage signal even at a steady throttle position-this causes the ECM to think the throttle is changing and it commands 'unlock'. The TPS can be easily checked with a meter though-just hook it up and ensure that voltage increases linearly with throttle position and doesn't jump around.

An alternate cause of random converter unlock is a bad brake switch, especially considering the age of the pieces/parts.

Known good O2?

If everything above checks out you may need to make adjustments to the Idle Mixture Screws. Normal setting is about 4 turns out. If the dwell hasn't responded so far, start them at 2-1/2 turns out each and run your IAB up from 2 1/2 turns out, a quarter of a turn, waiting about a minute each time for the ECM to catch up. Go to about 7 turns out then start over with the Idle Mixture Screws 3 turns out. Repeat with the goal being nearest 3-1/2 to 4 turns out on each, dwell responding properly and nearest 50%.

Check out the website 'TVMADEEZ' for info on the TV cable and it's adjustments.

Hook up that Sun Dwell meter and let us know how it goes.

DoubleV

IMO, sticking a paperclip in the ALDL is easier than unplugging the 4 wire connector to the distributor, so I didn't bother giving him that info to keep things simple. When setting your timing, it accomplishes the same thing either way.

Also he has an Olds engine, not a Chevy, so his base timing with ECM grounded ( or 4 wire connector unplugged ) is 20* @ 1100 rpm. Yeah, I know that sounds like alot, but that's what it is!

Also on an Olds, when setting dwell, technically you set the IAB with a gauge ( then leave it alone ) and achieve proper dwell turning the mixture screws. I have no idea why, but that's the procudure as per the CSM. I've done it both ways though and never noticed any issues.

naf

iTrader: (7)

Apparently what he's asking is not 'the same as for 3rd gens'.

I've not run into the higher base timing setpoint although I've seen references to adjusting Idle Mixture Screws instead of the IAB before. 20 degrees at 1100 rpm?

Does the Olds have the electric idle control motor where ours has the idle bump solenoid? Does it adjust up to 1100 when the ESC is disconnected (or terminals grounded)? What's normal idle speed? Don't see too many Olds around.

DoubleV

Yep, 20 @ 1100 rpm base timing and that's just factory specs. Most run a couple more than that. Mines set at 23 I believe.

The Olds 307 came two ways; the normal slow one ( VIN Y ) and the less slow one that came in the Hurst Olds and 442's ( VIN 9 ). I have no idea why, but the VIN Y had what was called an Idle Load Compensator that used electronically controlled vaccum to vary the throttle in certain situations ( like turning on the AC, going down steep grades etc ). It was an ugly mess of vac lines and whatnot.

The VIN 9 motors just had an electrical solenoid called the Idle Speed Solenoid that kicked the throttle up a bit when you turned your AC on. That's it. Alot cleaner look too.

Only in 88-90 did the 307 come with a knock sensor too. Probabaly didn't need one with it's ultra crappy 8:1 CR.

Here's a question for you naf, why are you suposed to set the timing at a certain RPM on a CCC engine? If the computer controls timing advance and the computer is off/disconnected, than shouldn't you be able to set your base timing at any RPM? I was told it was because the CCC distributor had a small amount of mechanical advance built into it, but that just sounds fishy to me. Is that true?

naf

iTrader: (7)

Cool stuff. The LG4s also use the throttle bump solenoid that engages with A/C AND/OR a power steering pressure switch (I've only seen on 87's). It also engages under certain ECM commanded conditions (decel and when the ESC is disconnected-helps the motor idle with the reduced timing).

The ICM has a rudimentary timing curve built in to it, no mech advance. If disconnected from the ECM it will still jump the timing up above a certain rpm (around 1200-1500). It's a stepped increase and you can see it with a timing light. Provides the motor some 'limp home' timing. Seems like GM would use the same module in the Olds?

DoubleV

Good to know. Thanks for the info naf.

1987CutlassMan

Hey guys,

Sorry, but my internet has been down for the last couple of days. It just finally decided to come back on!

I really appreciate the responses both of you have given me.

But, not to sound like a total moron (yea, I know what you guys are thinking!), I still need a little more 'hand holding' here, when it comes to adjusting these sensors.

NAF, you said that I could use my Sun machine to set the dwell. Since it's been over 25 years since I've even adjusted points, how do I hook this up? Like DoubleV said, the wire with the green plug is for the dwell meter. Can I hook up my leads to that wire? I can look up the directions on my Sun meter, but I know it has the RPM wire (to the #1 plug wire), the + and - battery connections, and the other wires (that go to the coil - and ground). So, I'm assuming that I can hook up the positive wire to this green plug, and the negative to the ground?

Before I forget, the 02 sensor was changed just a few months ago.

Anyway, I just checked the IAB screw setting, and it is "out" 4 complete turns. I guess I need to come out another half turn.

I was able to talk to the rebuilder, and he walked me through where the TPS adjustment screw is. He also told me where the IAB is (I already knew that), and he also told me that there is another screw in front of the IAB for the rich/lean stop. But, that takes the same size head as the TPS adjustment screw. He is going to sell me the tools (one for the idle mixture, and the other one controls both the TPS, and the rich/lean stops).

Also, one of you guys said what the voltage should be on the TPS, depending on the 6th character of my VIN. Unfortunately, the 6th character of my VIN is "1". You didn't have a voltage for that character. Do you know what the voltage should be on mine?


I'm enclosing pictures of the front cover of my Sun Machine, and the page that shows the hook up for the dwell meter.

One last thing. I'm hoping that I can use the AutoXRay scanner, model AX 2500, if I can't get my Sun machine to work. I see these on Ebay, for $200.00. The one thing I can't see in the description, is if it does "live data streaming", so I can see what's going on while it's running, and adjust it accordingly. Is this the model you guys are talking about? I have the "better" (I use that term loosely) OBDII scanner from Harbor Freight, and that one does live data streaming, but I called them, and they don't sell one that is OBDI, and I can't buy the GM OBDI cable, and hook it to that one. They said it wouldn't work.

Thanks again for your patience,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

Try hooking up the positive to the green lead and the negative to a good ground. You should be able to tell if it's working.

A call to Autoxray will answer the questions on the 2500, they helped me when I was deciding what to buy. I've got a 6000 that I bought a few years ago. Just make sure whatever you buy includes the correct cables for ALDL, some models require you to purchase the older cables separately.

Remember the order of tasks: Timing, Idle Speed, TPS then Dwell. You should be good with 0.40-0.50 volts on the TPS, although that would be my guess for the Olds.

Verify 1/8" of travel for the MCS before diving into dwell adjustment, like I outlined above.

1987CutlassMan

Another question I had was from your previous quotes above. My '87 has that solenoid that is vacuum operated, while my '84 is electrically controlled. Is this thing supposed to move the idle up when you put the A/C on? If so, then it doesn't work. I sprayed some lube in it, and did the vacuum test that is in the shop manual, and it does contract when you get 20 psi vacuum. But, when the car is running, and you put your thumb over the vacuum line coming from what seems to be an electrical switch, and you put the air on, nothing happens. Am I testing this right? We originally had the idle too low, then turned the screw that is underneath that solenoid until the idle was where it was supposed to be (750 in gear). But, we did it using the tach, which wasn't accurate, I know. Anyway, when I turned the A/C on, the idle went down. Then, all of the sudden, like the ECM took over, the idle strangely went up in park, with no A/C, to 1100 rpm, where it was around 900 before. Anyway, I'm babbling. Can you please just explain what that solenoid is supposed to do?

Something else that I didn't mention before, but is no big deal. I looked all over the crank pulley, but couldn't find any timing tab. Can you get those anywhere? Like an auto parts store?

Like I said before, I talked to the carb rebuilder, and he said he'd sell me the 2 tools to adjust the TPS, and idle mixture screws, for $20.00. But, even he mentioned I should call NAPA, and ask if they still sell these. I did, and they USED to sell the complete set for $10.00, but now only sell 3 sockets for $8.50 (one is used for Fords). But, these are not small enough (only 4.5mm). I have a 4mm deep well, and I can't even get it in the hole. The guy from NAPA said that if mine takes the 2.5 mm socket (which it must), then that is the one that was discontinued from inventory (figures!). Is there any place else I can find these tools? Or, should I buy them from the rebuilder?

Lastly, I did call Auto XRay, and asked them which one does "live data streaming", and they said the 'cheapest' model was the 6000. If I can't find any on Ebay, then I'll have to do this the 'old fashioned way' with the Sun machine, and a multimeter for the TPS. AutoXray's prices are way to high for me.

Thanks again for all your help. I just might be able to get this done!

John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

You can use an appropriately sized roll pin for the TPS adjustment. Just lightly tap it over the end of the set screw.

I got my 6000 off ebay a few years back for like $260? Might be lower now.

The solenoid should open to allow vaccuum to the idle compensator. If there's a leak somewhere, or simply old components, the action could become slow and/or intermittent. I'm not sure though if it was a digital (variable-like some EGR vac switches) solenoid to the vac can? Probably not.

1987CutlassMan

Just keeping you guys updated, I've found an Auto XRay 6000 on Ebay for $235.00, and should be receiving it Monday, or Tuesday. (I'm planning on selling my OBDII 'Harbor Freight' scanner to a buddy for $100.00, to make up for some of the cost!) I also scored the carb tools of Ebay for $6.50. Should also be seeing that this week.

Once I get them, I plan on diving in. I have to, as the gas mileage really sucks! I went on an all-expressway drive on Saturday. I only went 160+ miles, and used a WHOLE TANK! I'm filling it up tomorrow, but I know it will suck! With the old carb, I was getting 19 mpg without the A/C, and 17 mpg with A/C on. Here lately, it's only been getting 13-14 mpg. Can you say 'too rich'?

Also, with the help of the guy at Bowtie Overdrive, I've gotten an education on TV cable adjustment. I've also realized just how sensitive this cable is! Too tight, and it shifts REAL hard, and at high rpm. Too loose, and it shifts too low an rpm, and even if you floor it, still shifts low (like around 2000 rpm WOT).

I'm beginning to wonder if either the filter is clogged, or something along those lines. I could have the cable adjusted great one day, then when I take off the next day, it doesn't want to shift! I have to pull over somewhere, and re-adjust, or it won't shift into overdrive! It seems once it completely warms up, then it will do what you want it to. Reminds me of my first car (a '71 Galaxie 500), that would NOT shift into reverse until the fluid was good and warmed up. If it was cold, forget it! I learned all to quickly to always back into a parking space, if I was leaving it overnight!

I was planning on doing a trans service, and putting Amsoil in it. But, I've also been feeling a vibration when I'm in overdrive. Depending on which time the TC locks up, sometimes the vibration is minimal, other times, it's a little worse. At first I thought it was a bad U-Joint, but now I'm leaning torwards a bad TC.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

I got my scanner today, and just had to play with it a little. I'll be getting the carb tools tomorrow.

The TPS voltage was at .96
O2 sensor is at 677 mv
Mixture Control varies greatly. From 9.6% to 54%. But, most of the time, it was either at 9.6%, or 13%, or 20%.

I know this is a dumb question, but the Mixture Control percentage is the same as the dwell, right? And, keep it as close to 50% as possible?

Now, I'm guessing that turning the IAB does not affect the percentage that much, because that was what I was turning (in half turn increments) to see if it would change. I waited around 10-20 seconds between turns, so the ECM could catch up.

So, am I also to assume that I will have to turn that other screw, in front of the IAB, to adjust dwell? The other thing I can't hear, is the MCS clicking. I turn the key on, and put my ear right by the carb, but can't hear anything. Is this 'clicking' relatively loud enough to hear?

I realize that you said there's a certain order to be done here, but since I didn't have the carb tools yet, I just wanted to 'play' around here a little bit.

So, if I do the timing, idle, and TPS first, then will the dwell adjust easier?

Also, one of the entries on the scanner, says Rich/Lean Flag, and under it says 'Lean'. I was assuming it was rich, because all of the gas it's burning, and the fact that I can't be in a ventilated garage while it's running for a few minutes, without my eyes burning! I guess I'll have to do this outside, and downwind! I can run my old '77 Ford LTD in there all day with no problems. So, this thing must really be rich? There is a lot of 'smoke' coming out of the tube that goes from the valve cover, to the air cleaner. And, no, the PCV is on the other side.

I'll let you know what else happens tomorrow.

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

The scanner should also tell you whether it's in closed or open loop. You want it to be in 'closed loop'. You may have to adjust the idle mixture screws if adjusting the IAB up and down doesn't bring it into closed loop.

If you don't hear the clicking try removing the IAB altogether and inserting a small rod to make sure you can manually click it up and down. I've seen them get hung up before (or the MCS is just bad-although less likely).

Duty percentage near 50% is what you're looking for. The dwell meter displays this as percentage, when set to the 6 cylinder scale 30 degrees is equivalent to 50% (360 / 6 = 60 degrees, half of which is 30).

Mixture control may vary with throttle position or change in VAC sensor reading even if it's not in closed loop. The ECM will run on the 'last known good' data until the O2 is sending signals it can interpret. It will, however, be a steady change with no wavering at idle since it's not adjusting to O2 readings, at least until it's in CLOSED LOOP.

Check your MCS for proper movement up and down and 1/8" of travel. The ECM may think it's varying even if it's stuck. Don't adjust that other screw in front of the IAB (lean stop) unless you need to adjust to 1/8" of travel.

1987CutlassMan

Since I need batteries to run the scanner, I have it sitting here, by the computer. It does show it as a 'closed loop'.

I will take out the IAB tomorrow, and make sure that rod is free to move. I still have to get the timing 'tab', and put it on the car, so I can check the timing!

I did notice that with the scanner, the tachometer is off! I guess I will be setting the idle with it, and not the tach!

Thanks for turning me on to these Auto Xray scanners. They are a lot better than the Harbor Freight ones! My only complaint, is even with OBDII, you need batteries in the scanner! The cheap one turns right on, once I plug it in to the port. But, I can live without that! I also have to read up on the owners manual, as I can't seem to get the backlight to work. Other than that, I love it!

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

Very common problem and a very easy fix. Go to Oldspower.com and do a search and you'll find out exactly how it's done.

1987CutlassMan

I went on there, and the format looks suspiciously like this site. When I tried to register, it said the e-mail address was already in use, so I tried the same login as here, but it wouldn't take it.

Are these sites 'sister' sites, run by the same people, or what? Should I use a different e-mail address to register?

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

I've never heard of anyone having a problem registering over there. I'd try again. Maybe use another email address ( like a friends ) if you're still having issues.

1987CutlassMan

Double V,

I was able to use a different e-mail address, and got on. I see you are also on there, and put you on the 'buddy' list. My username on there is 1984Hurst/Olds.

I saw one post on there about using a jewelers screwdriver to adjust the tach, but I won't be able to do that with the cluster out of the dash. I've taken that out numerous times, so I'm a 'pro' at that by now. I've put blue LED lights in there, and in the heater control. On that post, there was someone (oldsjunky) who said something about speedometer.com being able to adjust the tach, and also retrofit a 120 mph speedo. I would like that!

Anyway, back to the major problem at hand. The big problem I'm having adjusting the timing, is that I can't find the stupid little timing tab ANYWHERE! I've called ALL the major auto parts stores, and all they have are one's for small block Chevy's. I was told that they won't fit a 307. I found a junk yard an hour north of me (in WI) that has one, but he wants $20.00 for it! And, if I want them to ship it to me, I'd have to pay an additional $10.00! WOW!! They're $5.00 in the stores!

I guess I'll post a thread on the olds site, and see if anyone can help me. If not, I'll have to pay the outrageous junk yard price.

I know it won't be in the right order, but I'll tackle the idle, TPS, and MCS today, then do the timing when I can get the part. I can't hear the MCS 'clicking', so I called the rebuilder. He swore up and down that it's a new sensor, and it worked. He said to check the plug, and make sure I'm getting power to it, then check the connection. Since the percentage was all over the place, I'm thinking I'm not getting a good connection. That will be first on the list today.

Maybe you can also help me with posting pictures. How the heck do you do it on that Olds site? I looked all over, and couldn't find a place to upload pics. Can you 'walk' me through it?

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

DoubleV,

I actually had to send a message to the webmaster at Olds power, as I couldn't even post a new thread! I'm trying desperately to find one of these timing tabs, and I figure that would be the site to post a thread! If you can help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

OK guys, I'm getting frustrated now! I got the idle set, got the TPS at .41 (which is what my shop manual says it should be), but I couldn't move that distributor to save my life! I had the bolt all but out, and the tab moved out of the way. I've squirted stuff by the shaft, where it meets the intake, but still nothing. Even with some gentle persuasion with a rubber maillot, that thing will NOT move. I probably wasted an hour messing with that thing, with no luck! I did put the jumper in the port, and checked the timing, anyway. The emission sticker on the fan shroud says that it should be at 20 degrees. I have about 16 degrees, but can't change it! Hopefully, 4 degrees off isn't too bad.

Another thing that is driving me nuts, is the dwell. At idle, that scanner stays put at 9.7%, with only once in a while moving around. Now driving down the road, doing 70 with a steady throttle, it's doing anywhere from 54-65%. I don't know if the ECM is bad, or what! At first, I couldn't hear any 'clicking' coming from the MCS, and called the rebuilder, thinking he gave me a bad sensor. But, with putting the other carb he rebuilt near it, and plugging it in, I couldn't hear that one either! Even with the carb I took off, I couldn't hear the clicking. It wasn't until I hooked up the scanner, and hit the test mode, then it started clicking big time! So, I took out the IAB, and made sure it was at 1/8" travel (and it was), and put it back in. I've tried screwing the IAB in, and out, in half turn increments, waiting for the ECM to catch up, but for the most part, it very rarely changes from the 9.7%. I reset the IAB to 4-1/2 turns out, like you guys said to do.

Well, at least after turning the TPS down (it was at .96V), it does seem to drive better. But, it still smells rich. Driving down the road, it bounces back and forth from rich, to lean. And, it is in a closed loop. But, it still smells rich coming out the tail pipe!

I can say that I LOVE this scanner, as it even gives mph! I don't know how, as the speedo is all analog with a cable, but it does! It was neat to watch the scanner while going down the road. I could check the RPM when at stoplights (book says 550 in drive), and I could see we set it right.

Do I need my 15lb sledge with that distributor? And, what about that MCS %?

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

20 -22 would definately be better. Sometimes those distributors like to get stuck, but I've never had one as stubborn as yours. Post in the Oldspower forum and maybe someone will have an answer for you on how best to get it free.

Quote:

Another thing that is driving me nuts, is the dwell. At idle, that scanner stays put at 9.7%, with only once in a while moving around. Now driving down the road, doing 70 with a steady throttle, it's doing anywhere from 54-65%.

Sounds like you need to adjust the idle mixture screws. Where are they set at right now?

Quote:

So, I took out the IAB, and made sure it was at 1/8" travel (and it was), and put it back in. I've tried screwing the IAB in, and out, in half turn increments, waiting for the ECM to catch up, but for the most part, it very rarely changes from the 9.7%. I reset the IAB to 4-1/2 turns out, like you guys said to do.

The IAB has nothing to do with checking for 1/8" plunger travel. The plunger travel is set my adjusting the rich and lean stops. You have an 87, so I THINK you may only have a lean stop. The lean stop should've been set with a gauge by the rebuilder.

Check how many turns out from lightly seated the lean stop is at. Set it back when you're done!

Remember, as per the servive manual, the IAB should be set with a gauge. This should be about 4 1/2 turns out. Proper dwell is achieved by adjusting the idle mixture screws. When checking dwell, make sure you're in gear and have your air cleaner/lid on too.

1987CutlassMan

Unfortunately, the tools I bought do not fit the mixture screws. I'm sure that they are meant to, but when the rebuilder knocked out the holes, he didn't make them very big. We tried putting the tool into the other carb he rebuilt for me, and it wouldn't go. I will have to find something else to fit.

I was under the impression that the IAB is what you adjusted for the dwell? Apparently not. It's not going to be fun, trying to adjust those screws with the air cleaner and everything on, trying to go around the jungle of vacuum lines, and wires! I knew there was a reason why I hated working on '80's cars! I will try to find something to use, so we can get this done. Well, at least since I turned down the TPS, it does seem to run better, but it still smells rich out the tail pipes.

I obviously do not know where the screws are set at. But, if I can find a tool that fits, then is there a special sequence to adjust them?

I will get on the Olds website, and find out how else to un-stick the distributor.

Thanks,
John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

Apparently the procedure for the Olds involves adjusting the mixture screws with the IAB static, per DoubleV. Until you get the tool for the screws I'm sure it won't hurt trying some adjustment of the IAB for dwell.

If your tool doesn't fit the holes it's probably the wrong one. The holes should be a set size with a knock-out plug to prevent tampering, which should have been removed.

1987CutlassMan

This was what I was going on, this was the first response from five7kid. This is why I was getting frustrated trying to set the IAB.

Now, I just want to make sure about something. I'm sure they're the same, but is the dwell, the same as the mixture percentage on the scanner? Like I said, with all of the adjustments that I did on that, it still managed to stay around 9.7%. But, if I used the 'freeze frame' feature on the scanner, after I unplugged it from the car, it did show some other adjustment levels, like 20%, 35%, and even a 54%. But, I never saw that when I was adjusting the IAB. I don't know if it was just a fraction of a second it was there, then gone, but long enough to make a 'freeze frame', I don't know.

But, now that I know about the idle mixture screws, I will just buy the tool from the rebuilder, as he said he could get his tool in the holes to adjust. I don't know if he has the socket, or what. I know that NAPA is the only parts chain that I can get a 3 socket set (one of the sockets are for Fords). I will ask him about that. NAPA used to sell a 7 piece kit, that even had the 2.5mm socket for the TPS, and the other size for the lean stop screw, but of course, they discontinued that one!

Thanks,
John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

DoubleV

30 degrees dwell is equal to 50% on the scanner. You can extrapolate the other numbers from there but don't even bother and just stick with using the percentages. Just make sure when you're making a statement like 'my dwell is at 55' to specify degrees or percentage so others understand.

Dwell is the amount of time the primary rods stay in the jets. Rods in jets = lean, rods out of the jets = rich.

If your dwell is a high number, your rods are spending more time in the jets thus trying to lean things out which is the ECM's response to a rich condition. If the dwell number is low, the rods are spending less time in the jets thus trying to richen things up which is the ECM's response to a lean condition.

Thus your very low dwell at idle is showing the ECM is sensing the rods should be spending very little time in the jets at idle because you're running so lean.

If you're running too lean, you have to richen it up. Since you have no way of adjusting the mixture screws ( or knowing where they're even currently set at ), just turn the IAB inward untill you achieve proper dwell. You can then do it the 'right' way as per the service manual when you get the proper mixture adjustment tool.

DoubleV

This is the tool you need to adjust the idle mixture screws; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-MI...item5188e7a5eb

naf

iTrader: (7)

The ECM MUST be in CLOSED LOOP before assuming a low or high dwell is a response to mixture conditions. If it's not receiving signals from the O2 sensor it can understand it will be stuck on it's 'last known good' or factory default settings. Dwell may even vary with change in TPS and/or VAC sensor but unless the scanner shows closed loop AND the dwell is varying constantly adjustments to IAB or idle mixture screws won't have an affect.

You'll need to get the mixture close so that the ECM can take over and fine tune. It may take some effort with a modified motor whereas factory settings for idle mixture screws and IAB will usually be a pretty close starting point for a stock motor.

It may also help to clear the ECM's memory-make sure the ECM's 'last known good' data wasn't a response to a vac leak, etc.

1987CutlassMan

Double V,

Unfortunately, that is what I was trying to do, and spending a lot of time trying. The dwell (or percentage in this case) pretty much stayed at 9.7%. What I was trying to say before, was after I shut the car off, and unplugged the unit, I could go into 'freeze frame' mode, and see something like 10 different frames from that session. When I did that, then I could see a bunch of varied percentages on individual frames. Most were still at 9.7%, but some were at 12, 20, 35, and one frame actually said 54%. But, with the car running, and the scanner plugged in, I couldn't see a lot of those varied percentages. I didn't know if that 'frame' was only a fraction of a second, that's why it didn't show when the car was running, or what? But, thanks for the link, I will buy this tool. This should fit through the 'knock out' holes?

NAF,

That is one thing I constantly look at with the scanner, to make sure it is in a closed loop. And, I haven't seen it in an open loop yet. The next time I have it hooked up, I will make a note of what the O2 sensor mv is, and let you know. I do see that when I'm driving the car, it bounces between lean, and rich flag. My buddy says it's normal. Is it? The other problem, like I just told Double V, is that the percentage vary rarely changes, even when I was adjusting the IAB. It might go up to almost 20%, but then slowly go down, a couple of percentages at a time, until it goes back to the magical 9.7%, and then stay there. I can turn the screw in, or out in half turn increments, waiting up to 30 seconds between turns (for the ECM to catch up), but it still rarely moved.

I'm starting to wonder if the ECM isn't messing up. After we first got the idle adjusted, it seemed to go up, and down, and also run rough, then smooth, alternating back and forth. When we got the idle to 550 in gear, then I turned the A/C on, the car almost died! But, once I started driving the car, it was OK. I left the scanner hooked up, and when I was at a stoplight, with the A/C on, the car ran fine, and the idle was right at 550, and ran smooth. So, maybe that idle compensator (or whatever you guys called it) is actually working, or the ECM caught up?!?!?!?

My buddy, who's still a 'kid' (at 30 years old), who's helping me with my H/O, constantly complains about working on '80's cars. I kind of laugh to myself when he makes the statements (he would've been 9 when the last of the '80's cars were made), but I am starting to agree with his complaints!

Thanks guys,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

It's normal for it to constantly fluctuate between lean and rich. Once you get the tools and can make adjustments to the idle mixture screws I'm sure you'll find where it likes it.

1987CutlassMan

OK guys, I finally got the tool, and was able to adjust the idle mixture screws. I was able to gain 300 rpm! I was also able to finally get the mixture percentage off of 9.7%! It fluctuated quite a bit, but I was able to get it somewhere around 30%. The one thing I know I did right, was now the car runs super smooth! Even in a low idle (with the A/C on) in drive it's at 450 rpm (550 w/o A/C on). But now, it doesn't shake, or rattle! Didn't really seem to make any difference in acceleration, though. I think it's only got like 140 hp, so what do you expect?

But, I can't get the percentage up anymore than that. I even tried adjusting the IAB either way a little bit, but it didn't get any better. Going down the highway, the mixture's around 60%, and seems that 67% is the 'max' (in WOT). It doesn't seem to fluctuate as much between 'rich' flag, and 'lean' flag anymore. It seems to stay mostly in 'rich' flag. Which, I don't understand, as now your eyes don't burn with the exhaust anymore.

The one thing I forgot to pay attention to, was the 'closed' or 'open' loop. I brought the scanner in the house, and for some reason, can't access the 'freeze frame' data like I did before. But, the last reading it had, said it was 'open' loop.

I will plug it back in tomorrow. But, if it does still show 'open' loop, then what do I have to do to fix that? You guys are saying to make sure it's in 'closed' loop.

It will be funny (not) now that I finally get the thing running smooth as silk, and my eyes don't burn anymore when it idles, but because it's in 'open' loop, I would have to start all over again, re-adjusting the thing!

I do know that I had to turn the screws out quite a bit to get it running smooth. As a matter of fact, I turned the right side screw out too much! When I thought I had it right, and went to take the tool out, the car died! I saw the mixture screw came out with the tool! I did go back to the left side, and played with it some more, to get the most percentage, and the highest rpm. Almost like adjusting a 'non' computer controlled carb! But, again, I really didn't do much with the IAB, as it seemed to not change the percentage when I turned it.

Do you guys know what the percentage is supposed to be while driving down the road, in steady throttle? I'm sure that there's not a recommended setting for that, as it can fluctuate too much. But, have any of you guys checked that before?

I'm beginning to have the feeling that this is the most I'm going to get out of this carb. I'm also feeling that the ECM might be messing up. I realized that when I bought the car, looking at the cleanliness of the engine, that it probably didn't have 80.xxx miles on it, more like 180. It had new paint, but with no bondo (I checked). Did a fantastic paint job, even the inside of the doors, and trunk. The under side is clean, with none of the familiar rust that G-bodies are famous for (floorpans). I'm just hoping that the engine doesn't have 280 k! When I take the tube off the air cleaner (that goes to the valve cover), it seems to have a lot of blow by (smoke coming out). But, it doesn't burn oil. (it does leak a little out of the timing chain cover, and valve covers). But, it sure does look good!

Thanks guys,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

Here's a picture of the car, in case you were wondering what it looks like! It's a picture from the dealer, when it was for sale. I have better photos, but they are well over 1mb. ea.

DoubleV

Remember, you still need to set the timing properly on it too. When you do this, the engine will run stronger and the carb adjustments might make more of a difference. Set your timing to 20 or 21-22 if you run 89 octane. Bump it up to 23-24 even, but you'll need to run the good stuff for that. 16 base timing is not good on these cars.

How many turns out do you have the idle mixture screws? How many turns out is your IAB and how much are you turning it past that when you're playing around with it? Don't be afraid to deviate alot from the suggested 4.5 turns out. When all is said and done, your idle mixture screws should be out about 4 turns or so. If you require 7 turns out or something that high, I think an adjustment is off elsewhere. Remember to set your timing properly or your carb adjustments might be off.

How many turns out is the lean stop screw BTW? What is your TPS voltage?

Your exact dwell is really not all that important to be honest. The reason why you want it at 50% is because it's right in the middle and allows for alot more room for the ECM to play around in under extreme conditions.

You don't need the freeze frame feature on the scanner to tell if it's in closed loop or not. All you need to do is scroll down the list on the scanner and it will tell you while the car's running. As long as the car's warmed up and been running for a while, it should be in closed loop. Car will be in open loop only when the engine temp is low ( about 135 ), for a certain period of time after car is started ( even if it's already warmed up ), at WOT, or if the O2 sensor gets too cold if ideling for too long.

P.S. Are you checking your dwell in gear with the air cleaner on?

1987CutlassMan

No, I haven't been doing that, since it's only been the three of us (me, myself, and I) doing the adjusting. It was enough of a pain to adjust the idle, by shutting off the car, turning the adjusting screw with a 1/4" open end wrench (with one hand holding the throttle all the way back to get to it), getting back in the car, starting it, putting it in gear to check the idle, then repeat numerous times. Doing that, of course, means that the air cleaner is off to the side (but the vacuum line going to it is still attached). Why is it so important to have the air cleaner on, anyway? I figured that as long as I leave the vacuum line attached, the readings should be the same. It's also impossible to adjust the IAB when the air cleaner is on.

The TPS voltage didn't deviate too much. I had it at .41 volts, and I think it went down to .37 v. The Olds service manual recommends .41, so that's what I'll put it at. But, where I did the adjustments yesterday, I forgot to bring the other tool, to adjust the TPS. Does that little of a difference mean a lot? I do know that it did run a lot better than when it was at .96v.

I can't remember how many turns out the lean/stop screw is. That was one of my first adjustments I did. But, when I took out the IAB, and measured the travel, it was only at 1/8". So, I left that alone, except when I wasn't getting any response by turning the IAB, I tried turning that a little, but the engine almost died, so I turned it back to where it was, and re-measured the distance, to make sure it was right. As far as I remember, the IAB is still somewhere around 4.5-5 turns out.

I was only trying to access the freeze frame info while I was in the house last night. I know what to do for the 'live data', but checking the open or closed loop was just something I totally forgot to do while I was adjusting it. On the last scan that was on the scanner, however, it did show it as an open loop, and the engine temp was up there, as I just got through driving it. But, I will try once again today, and I will check the dwell in gear, with the air cleaner on.

I also don't know exactly how many turns out I have the mixture screws, as I was too busy looking at the scanner, trying to get the best rpm, and percentage. Like I said before, I did turn the right side screw out too much, and the screw came out with the tool. I know I didn't put it in a lot, because the car was running too damn good!

And, the timing is still at 16, because the only responses I'm getting on that other forum is to just keep squirting PB blaster on the shaft, and pray! One guy said to take a pipe wrench to it, but then someone else said not to, or it might break. I can't afford that to happen right now! I already have one engine out, I don't want two out! I will squirt it again, and try it once more. Now that I have everything I need to get this done (with tools), and now that the next couple of days the humidity will be down to less than tropical levels, I will play with it some more. Yesterday was not the right day to play around with a hot engine, and dew points in the 70's!

But, if I want to just run 87 octane gas, is 20 OK on the timing? What would be the best number to run with 87? I don't want to start running high octane fuel in this, as this is more of a 'daily driver'.

Like I said last night, I know I must have done something right, as the exhaust no longer fries my eyes!

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

naf

iTrader: (7)

You WON'T get the best quality idle with it set properly and in closed loop. Expect the idle to always 'hunt' a bit as the ECM changes dwell in response to O2 (rich/lean flag). A slightly rich idle in open loop will usually provide a rock steady idle but the ECM won't be controlling mixture and you'll likely suffer some throttle transition issues (as well as loss of efficiency).

You want to make sure your idle mixture screws are each set at the same number of turns out. If they're set differently you'll play hell trying to get the ECM in closed loop and dwell set near 50%.

TPS voltage at idle in the 0.30-0.50 range won't have much affect. Higher voltages at idle will confuse the ECM into bringing in timing before it's needed-around 1.0 volts or so on my camaros. You DO want to ensure the TPS voltage is steady at constant throttle position, returns to near the same voltage when the throttle goes back to idle and is near 4.0 volts at WOT.

I'm unfamiliar with the proper method for the Olds but I'd start at 2 1/2 turns out on each idle mixture screw and with the IAB at 4 turns out try turning the mixture screws 1/4 turn out EACH until you get a good closed loop and dwell near 50%. Your goal should be near 4 turns out on everything.

Placing the 'restrictive' factory air cleaner on can cause the dwell at idle to increase in response to the richer mixture. Usually not by enough to bother with resetting it though. When you get it right you'll see that it constantly swings both sides of 50% a small amount anyway. If the air cleaner and vehicle in D change the dwell too much at idle just go back and make a small tweak, but you'll likely be fine setting it in P with the air cleaner off.

Sweet ride, I've always been partial to the Gs, especially the huge trunk. One day maybe...

DoubleV

You should be able to make all adjustments with the car running, although the air cleaner may need to be off to adjust the idle screws. You can always get a buddy to help you out too!

Quote:

Why is it so important to have the air cleaner on, anyway? I figured that as long as I leave the vacuum line attached, the readings should be the same. It's also impossible to adjust the IAB when the air cleaner is on.

It's not majorly important, but it will make a small difference due to the air cleaner restricting air to the carb. Adjusting the IAB is super easy with the air cleaner on. Lift off just the lid, adjust IAB, put lid back on, check scanner for dwell. With that being said, technically your IAB should be set with a gauge and not move from there, but some makes do it differently.

Since you don't have an IAB gauge, give the Chevy method a try; turn idle screws out a certain amout ( try about 4 turns ), and adjust the IAB to acheive proper dwell. Give it a try. Why not? It's actually easier that way IMO.

Quote:

The TPS voltage didn't deviate too much. I had it at .41 volts, and I think it went down to .37 v. The Olds service manual recommends .41, so that's what I'll put it at. But, where I did the adjustments yesterday, I forgot to bring the other tool, to adjust the TPS. Does that little of a difference mean a lot? I do know that it did run a lot better than when it was at .96v.

.37 is within spec so you're good. Keep your carb tools in your car so you always have em with you...at least until you get everything sorted out.

Quote:

I can't remember how many turns out the lean/stop screw is. That was one of my first adjustments I did.

This should be an adjustment you should NOT have made as it's set with a gauge when the carb is apart. The rebuilder should've set this and then it shouldn't technically be moved at all. You need to check and see how many turns out it is currently set to.

Quote:

But, when I took out the IAB, and measured the travel, it was only at 1/8". So, I left that alone, except when I wasn't getting any response by turning the IAB, I tried turning that a little, but the engine almost died, so I turned it back to where it was, and re-measured the distance, to make sure it was right.

You need to explain the first sentence. You do not measure the IAB travel, you measure the PLUNGER travel with a height gauge with the carb all put together. The IAB just 'rides' on top of the plunger.

Quote:

As far as I remember, the IAB is still somewhere around 4.5-5 turns out.

If your carb requires you to turn the idle screws out as much as you've done, that tells me your IAB is out too far. Turn it IN a full turn or so ( this RICHENS the idle ) and readjust the mixture screws so they don't have to be out so far.

Quote:

I also don't know exactly how many turns out I have the mixture screws, as I was too busy looking at the scanner, trying to get the best rpm, and percentage. Like I said before, I did turn the right side screw out too much, and the screw came out with the tool. I know I didn't put it in a lot, because the car was running too damn good!

Are both screws out the same number of turns? They need to be. Check to see where they are at. They shouldn't need to be out more than about 4.5 turns.

Quote:

And, the timing is still at 16, because the only responses I'm getting on that other forum is to just keep squirting PB blaster on the shaft, and pray! One guy said to take a pipe wrench to it, but then someone else said not to, or it might break.

You need to keep spraying PB blaster on it and keep trying. You're not gonna break anything if you pursuade it a bit with a hammer/wrench. Just be smart and don't go Hulk all over it.

Quote:

But, if I want to just run 87 octane gas, is 20 OK on the timing? What would be the best number to run with 87? I don't want to start running high octane fuel in this, as this is more of a 'daily driver'.

87 octane at 20 deg timing is fine. For the increased 'power' and smoother idle, 21-22 is a bit better with 89 octane. 10 cents more a gallon for added drivability is worth it to me. What is it, like a $1.60 extra a tank full?

Quote:

Like I said last night, I know I must have done something right, as the exhaust no longer fries my eyes!

Yes, you've come a long way, but there's still just a bit of tweaking left to be done IMO.

1987CutlassMan

You should be able to make all adjustments with the car running, although the air cleaner may need to be off to adjust the idle screws. You can always get a buddy to help you out too!

That's easier said, then done. I was at my buddy's shop doing this, and do you think I could get a hand? HELL NO!

You need to explain the first sentence. You do not measure the IAB travel, you measure the PLUNGER travel with a height gauge with the carb all put together. The IAB just 'rides' on top of the plunger.

You originally said to check the plunger travel, so I did. The only step to do this, is to take out the IAB, then get something that will fit down there, to measure. I used an old file, with a point tip. The width of a Sharpie line is 1/8" (I measured). So, I put the line where it should be on the file, and pushed down on the plunger. It did not go past the thickness of the Sharpie line, hence 1/8" travel. The only reason why I re-checked it, was from a previous reply, stating that since I could not get any response from adjusting the IAB, I tried turning that lean stop. Then, the car died, so I turned it back, then took out the IAB, to check the plunger travel, to make sure it was still 1/8".

If your carb requires you to turn the idle screws out as much as you've done, that tells me your IAB is out too far. Turn it IN a full turn or so ( this RICHENS the idle ) and readjust the mixture screws so they don't have to be out so far.

OK, here's where I can't do what you guys have been telling me to. Turning the IAB DOES NOT do anything for my dwell (or mixture percentage). I was trying to do that way before I even got the tool to adjust the idle mixture screws. I've turned that screw every which way, and nothing has ever happened, except me running out of my open garage, because my eyes were fried. It wasn't until AFTER I adjusted the mixture screws OUT, then the car FINALLY started to run right, and smooth. I don't know how many turns out this carb was, but the other one I had rebuilt at the same time, was approximately 4.5 turns out. Since the rebuilder used the same mule engine to check both carbs, I'm assuming that this carb was around the same.

Now, today, I was at it again, to check dwell (or mixture percentage), and to make sure it was in "closed loop" (which it was). The mixture percentage fluctuated quite a bit, but I could narrow it down to between 50-60%, at idle, in drive, with the idle set at 550 rpm (factory spec). I even adjusted the TPS back to .41, and it did seem to accelerate better. Plus, like I said before, I was back in my open garage, and had it idling for quite a while, and I could actually stand in the back of the car (the car is backed in), while it's running, and not run back out gasping for air. Even my neighbor commented on how nice the car is running, and even he was in my garage, by the back of the car, and commented on how less rich the exhaust is. While driving it today, the acceleration is a little bit better, but when it gets in 3rd, kind of bogs down (probably timing?). Just from going down the road a couple of times, and looking at the gas gauge, I'm pretty confident that it's using less gas. I just can't see turning the mixture screws back in, when the IAB either isn't doing it's job, or the ECM is messing up(?)

The reason why I say that, is I tried turning the IAB in a little (maybe a full turn), and I thought that maybe the percentage did change. I did it in drive (with the tires against ramps). So, I put it back together, and was proud to see the percentage go down to around 45%. So, I put it in neutral, took the ramps out, put the air cleaner back on, and took it for another drive. After stopping a few times, I double checked the percentage, and it went back to between 50-60%. It does go up and down quite a bit, sometimes settling down on a number. It's finally resting around 55%. But, really no change from before I turned the IAB. After turning the IAB, the idle would go up, (then the percentage would go down), then down (percentage goes up). A few times, the car even died, before I could get in it. But, once I drove it a little bit, then it was fine. Again, I don't know if the ECM has problems, or maybe it was just 'catching up'? I once again played with the IAB, getting it to run better, and when I thought it was at it's best, shut off the car. I then turned the IAB all the way in, and guess how many turns it took? 4.5 almost exactly! So, I've pretty much given up on the IAB doing anything for the percentage!

I also sprayed the crap (again) out of the distributor shaft. I used the rubber mallet again, being firm, but gentle. Still nothing. Hopefully, with it soaking overnight, it might start to turn.

If I can actually get it to turn, and I get the timing where it belongs, then will I have to start all over again with the idle mixture screws, and everything else?

87 octane at 20 deg timing is fine. For the increased 'power' and smoother idle, 21-22 is a bit better with 89 octane. 10 cents more a gallon for added drivability is worth it to me. What is it, like a $1.60 extra a tank full?

The power aspect is nice, but is there also any mpg improvements that come with the 21-22 timing?


I don't know how this car can possibly idle any smoother. If it wasn't for the dual 'throaty' exhaust, you wouldn't even know it's running! My childhood friend's Dad showed me a flathead Ford engine years ago, and had his kid go and get a glass of water. He put that water on the air cleaner, and you couldn't see it move whatsoever. I'm not saying that this engine now runs as smooth, but it would be a "real close" second! I figure a new cap, rotor, wires, and maybe E-3 plugs (I usually use Bosch platinum), and this WILL run as good as that old flathead!

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

P.S. I keep on forgetting to tell you guys this, but every time I start the car (when the engine is cold, and I set the choke, and high idle), after about 30 seconds or so, I hear/feel a little "boom" (like a small backfire). Nothing major, like the hood is going to fly off, but if someone else was in the car, and I was talking to them, no one would know. You have to listen for it, that's how small this is. At least now, the car does go into high idle (before I adjusted the idle mixture screws, it didn't), but I still got that little 'boom' today. Lord knows what that is? I was hoping that it was just too rich, and backfiring, but now that I adjusted the idle mixture screws, it still did it. ???????

DoubleV

I see what you're saying about removing the IAB but you don't need to do that. Your height gauge is supposed to be inserted in either of the 2 holes/slots located diagnally in on either side of the IAB.

My dwell would do what yours did too; be perfect, go for a drive, then it's suddenly in the high 50-low 60's. Have no idea why, but who cares. Your dwell doesn't need to be a perfect 50% anyway. You're close enough so I think you're fine.

You still need to check where your lean stop is set. If it's set too low, then the engine will run leaner and thus require outrageous idle screw adjustments to compensate. Check to see how many turns your mixture screws are set at too just so we know exactly how you have everything set up.

Your ECM is most likely just fine. These things can just be a bit tempermental.

Keep spraying that distributor over and over again. If you have the room, try some vicegrips on the shaft and tap the vicegrips with a hammer. Once you get your timing set right, your rpm's might increase a little and MAY effect your dwell, but not enough where you'd need to do drastic re-tuning. Just a few tweaks perhaps like lower idle screw then readjust TPS sensor for example.

I can't say if setting your timing at 21-22 will give you better milage, but it won't hurt that's for sure. Theory says your MPH ( and power ) should increase though, but perhaps not enough to notice. Just set it at 20 and see what you think. Bump it up 2 degrees and take it for another spin. Maybe you'll actually notice a difference? Maybe not. I think you WILL notice a difference if you go from 16 to 20+ though.

I remember once I forgot to ground the ECM before timing it. Ran like crap, popping through the carb and everything. I figured out what I did wrong, checked my timing with the ECM grounded and saw my timing was only at about 12 or so. Ugg! Yours is at 16, which is better than 12, but you can see from my little adventure how timing can effect things.

Where is this 'boom' coming from? The carb? The exhaust? It could be timing related perhaps, I don't know.

1987CutlassMan

You still need to check where your lean stop is set. If it's set too low, then the engine will run leaner and thus require outrageous idle screw adjustments to compensate. Check to see how many turns your mixture screws are set at too just so we know exactly how you have everything set up.

How do you check that? I thought that screw was how the 1/8" plunger travel happened? Like I said earlier, when I tried to turn it, the engine died, so I took out the IAB, to make sure the plunger still had 1/8" travel. I have to take out the IAB to check travel, as I have nothing small enough to fit in the holes on either side. Like I said, all I had that would fit in the IAB hole (and could engage the plunger) is that file with the pointed tip.

But, I will take the other side of the TPS tool (fits that lean stop screw), and see how many turns out it is.

I will take note of where the mixture screws are at today, if I have time.

Where is this 'boom' coming from? The carb? The exhaust? It could be timing related perhaps, I don't know.

I don't know either. I guess when I start it, I might open the hood, and maybe even take the air cleaner lid off(?) That's how small this is, but since it's usually just me in the car, I notice it.

I'll let you know tonight.

Thanks,
John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

1987CutlassMan

That's one of the reasons why I got into these cars. I traded the wife's '05 Mustang V-6 for the H/O (and got money back! Obviously, the guy didn't know what he had!). I liked it so much, that when this '87 came up, I sold my '05 Mustang V-6 (yea, I know, we had his/hers), and bought this. Came out 7 g's ahead! Of course, if I would've had a shop do all this adjustment, I probably would've come out at a loss!

The reason why I sold mine, was I was at Menards, and bought a outside light. Not really a big box, but I had to shoehorn it to fit in the trunk. After seeing the huge trunk in the H/O, I put the 'Stang up for sale! These cars also have a USABLE REAR SEAT!! Not 'decoration' for a 'Stang! And, to think that a G-body is only 1 inch longer in wheelbase than a new 'Stang, and has all this much room, one has to wonder; "why did they quit making these"?

In my opinion, these G-bodies handle as well (if not better in the H/O with Koni rear shocks) than the 'Stang's, but ride a LOT BETTER! My 30 year old friend who's been helping me, was trying to explain the difference in the suspensions, and how the 'Stang was better. I just looked at him, and said THESE CARS RIDE BETTER! 'nuf said! I noticed that on these cars, they have something resembling a 4-link rear end. When I had the 'Stang on the lift, wasn't as impressed with the rear suspension. I know the GT's have a better rear end, but I wasn't going to spend 7 g's for 90 hp (the difference back then).

Plus, when I run into some money, or see someone selling an engine with better performance cheap, I'll buy it, and put it in the '87. As long as I can still use the overdrive, for highway mpg's. There's one guy on the Olds forum, who has an '87, with a 403! If I could afford the gas, I'd love that!

Thanks,
John


1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)

Can you tell which one was mine, and which one was the wife's?

DoubleV

1/8" plunger travel is accomplished buy adjusting the RICH stop ( the one right in front of the IAB ). Being that you have an 87, I think you don't have a rich stop. On your carb, you always have 1/8" plunger travel no matter what so you don't even need to bother.

Now having 1/8" plunger travel is what you want, but if your lean stop is way out of wack, you still may have 1/8" plunger travel but may still be too lean ( if lean stop screw is in too far ) or too rich ( if it's out too far ).

Overall I think since everythings running well, you're probabaly good to go, but it doesn't hurt to check where all your settings are at. Once you get the car timed properly, I'm sure everything will be even better; smoother, more responsive, and better MPG.

1987CutlassMan

Actually, today I checked on that screw you are talking about, and that DOES affect the plunger travel. That screw is 4.75 turns out, and, if I take out the IAB (to use my file with the mark), it has exactly 1/8" travel. If I turn that screw in one full turn (to 3.75 turns out), then I DON'T have 1/8" travel, but less. If I turn the screw all the way in, I have NO plunger travel at all. So, I turned the screw back out, and made sure it was 1/8" travel again.

But, I didn't have time to see how many turns out the idle mixture screws are. I was, however, having a heck of a time keeping the TPS at .41. It would go down to .37, and I'd adjust it back. Then, it would go up to .45, or .47, and I had to turn it down. I think I finally have it right.

I do believe you are right, once I get the timing set, everything else will be OK. Now, I do have a 15lb sledge hammer???? That should get that distributor to move!

Thanks,
John

1987 Cutlass Salon 307 CI 200R4 Trans 3:08 Posi

1984 Hurst/Olds 307 CI (big cam) 200R4 Trans 3:73 Posi
(one of only 23 made that year w/factory sunroof)