sootie007

Buddy texted me ...he already has the 4:10 in ,,,,,, still hasn't put the axles back in or buttoned it up fully but -I should be picking it up this week for sure....FWIW hes using GM synthetic 75-90 and GM posi lube.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

might be ok with a 700 on the street. i have beat the heck out of my 7.5 and it hasent broke. i put a summit stud girdle/auburn posi/and upgraded axles in it.

SouthSide2

4:10s... sweet... revving to the moon and going nowhere.

220 hp spinning donuts... just good fun.

I would be happy to drive your car on a short autocross track, where top speed may be 40 mph.

I'm not negative on your positive move. This is your toy/play car so... play on!

SouthSide2

4:10s... sweet... revving to the moon and going nowhere.

220 hp spinning donuts... just good fun.

I would be happy to drive your car on a short autocross track, where top speed may be 40 mph.

I'm not negative on your positive move. This is your toy/play car so... play on!

KILLemALL

iTrader: (3)

That was the very definition of negative

sootie007

Kill em , don't worry someone apparently has "gear envy" ......also he doesn't realize a taller tire can be used to negate it when I throw something substantial in here in a year or two .....nice double post too by the way.

Ill let you guys know -who care- what it feels like when I - rev it to the moon and go nowhere with my posi ....

SouthSide2

I am not against, (or negitive) on your good choice (positve move). I have read your future plans. I get it, smart thinking. I have done the same thing. Your sure to have fun, even with your current setup. It just keeps getting better.

Reving to the moon and going nowhere. Is something I have heard about low gears. I have heard too low a gear is like going nowhere fast also.

No hate here. Like your thread. Thanks. I care!

sootie007

Peace.

sootie007

So...still waiting on my gear install to be finished ....so I decided to throw one of these IMCO Flowmaster knockoffs on it since it sounds so wimpy ......all 2.5 inlet outlets , aluminized, 100% welded case ,has a single delta plate in it from what I can see ,$37.00 FREE shipping off ebay . YES its made in China...super cheap figured why not...if it sucks I will simply put my Dynomax Super Turbo back on and sell it ....for 37 bucks I figured why not......appears to be good quality , great welds etc .....

sootie007

One more

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

doesnt look to bad

sootie007

JWBird , yes the quality of this muffler is amazing for $37- very well built - good welds etc ...will record a small sound clip to compare to sound in this thread above with the Dynomax Super Turbo.

Shes READY - I am going to pick up the car tonight after work with the 4.10 installed. Cant wait . Lets see if it wakes this wimpy combo up any.

sootie007

Coast side whined....hes pulling it back apart to try and quiet it down...... ;( .

SouthSide2

You may have to live with a bit of wine. Or stronger spirits.

It is difficult to add a new gear . There is just a few thing that are hard to set. And one you cannot.

So gear supplyer said set pinion depth to X, and ring to Y .

You can not change Z ( This is center line of the axle to center line of the pinion, you can not change this as it's set from the factory ).

Preload is difficult to measure? No... use a inch pound torque wrench.

Does the right preload make the pinion fall/land at the correct X ?

Does the right preload make the ring land at the right Y If yes ...we have a WINNER.

There is a lot going on here.

To get the combination right is a art. (It is tuff to nail).

Quality parts? One may think they can trust a brand. But its a roll of the dice.

It is also about your guy installing the new gear. This guy must know how sophisticated doing this is.

Any way...

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

mine whines a bit. adds to the feel. i think the heavier duty ones probably will because the straighter the cut the stronger the gear, and that makes noise

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

A quick and dirty cheap torque convertor swap may help as others have touched on. Try one for an S-10 pick-up with the 4.3 V6. Should be a 2000rpm stall and cheap to get. (feel free to double check me on that stuff).

Your gear swap will make that idea a bit late though...

What about putting the factory distributor back in and letting the computer figure out the advance?

Can't imagine your frustration at this point.

DancesWithDeath

iTrader: (1)

Updates pleeeeease

sootie007

Update : buddy still hasn't finished trying to reinstall the gear yet ......

As far as distributor advance goes that is a done deal - its running the best it can and is running super smooth etc at 32 locked- no pinging whatsoever .... simply: this 305 has no ***** with this GMPP M I L D cam / stock heads . The gear "should" give it a little more off idle snap however . Will let you know after I get it back how it feels.

As far as a new converter on "this" combo..its simply not needed on this super mild setup - and I didn't want to crack the tranny on this setup from the start. In a few years with a 383, nicer cam etc - yes it will most definitely get a converter then.

As far as frustration - no I don't really have any- this is just how it goes sometimes - they fight you lol...... I didn't have any delusions of tearing up the drag strip with this 305 - honestly though - I thought it would just have a little more ***** than it does in the end....wrongo !

mmadden55

Since you are carbed and geared cam is the way to go. Go big small cubes need high lift long duration cam and with those gears you can build for top end power.

sootie007

Picked up the car last night - 4.10 gear is quiet ,,,,when cold it was funny it actually chirped the 1-2 shift leaving the neighborhood - normal speed and I felt the posi "correct" things. When it warmed up- fluid thinned out it was shifting as normal . "Supposedly" you have to put 500 miles on it before getting on it - so I will do that ...I can tell you without my lockup converter working on the way home last night ~ 70 mph is 115mph on the speedo and 2900 rpm it looks like .....(again I don't have my lockup converter working right now) but will be working on that next as well as the apparent heat soak / percolation issue after sitting shutoff for around 15 minutes. I bought a carb heat shield and will install that next to see if that get rids of that.


Things to do :

Fix cat test pipe to mid pipe exhaust leak (ticking driving me insane) DONE

Fit Imco (Flowmaster 2 chamber copy) muffler on DONE

Thin wiring harness

Install Ac delete plate

Fix regulator seeping / leak on unused ports (its back) DONE 3-4 wraps of Teflon tape on fitting.

Install carb heat shield

Install starter heat shield

1st Richmond Excel gear - came in a "Blue Richmond gear box" - was noisy and could NOT be setup correctly (tried 4 times) ..pulled out sending back to retailer.

2nd Summit Racing Brand gear - came in a "generic plain black box" but the gear was stamped (EXCEL?) but this packaging said assembled in America unlike the blue box gear . This gear setup right on one attempt. I have read Richmond Excels are either made in India or the USA - it appears the Excels that are made in India are getting the rap for being noisy . Who knows this is just my personal experience here .

sootie007

I installed that Imco muffler on there this weekend ...its funny its not really that much louder than the Dynomax super turbo was at idle BUT it does sound throatier at cruise etc which I like . NOT REDNECKY AT ALL - really low rumble at cruise. Will post up a sound clip later so you can judge for yourself - cam is still wimpy sounding but the tone is better and sounds more like an IROC or WS6 does. I am happy with it and I will leave it on...it was only $37 on EBAY .

I got a chance to drive it more this weekend , living with the 4:10 IS NOT difficult at all I.M.O. . With any REAL horsepower behind it maybe it is ridiculous in first gear but with this 305 at around ONLY AT MAX 220-250 horse - its TOTALLY fine. I still haven't nailed it from a dead stop as I am still letting things settle / break in as the manufacturer suggests.

SouthSide2

I have a story of the lower gear. My story ends with a smile.

sootie007

So the fine tuning continues .......

700r downshifts and everything nice when you nail it while cruising down the road - but since the gear swap 2.73 to 4:10 the shifts come waaaay to early from a dead stop, part throttle etc .....I am going to tweak the governor weights and springs this weekend if I get a chance to see if I can get the shift points happening up at their correct part throttle and full throttle rpm points. I am also happy to report that when it downshifts now with the 4:10 you can feel the power band of this cam start to actually come on ...it starts exactly around 2500 pulling - not like a 325 hp motor but you can feel it working getting in its grove / power band unlike before with the 2.73 where it just moaned and climbed at a snails pace to the upper rpms . When I get a chance I will note at exactly what rpm it falls off at for the record. Lots of people say these TBI heads die at 4500 rpm. Again this is only 220-250 hp combo at best but you can feel it now.


I was experiencing heat soak / percolation after shutting the car off for around 20 mins then restarting it - it would idle horribly unless you revved and got fresh fuel up in the primary bowl. The primary bowl float level was down in the weeds to start with - right at or slightly below the sight plug window hhhhhmmmm.....so I readjusted the front float level to 50-60 percent mark in the window and its not exhibiting the percolation after sitting. I cannot confirm 100 percent yet but I think the fuel level was so low it was absorbing all that carb heat and bubbling off the residual left in the bowl to an even lower level - with the higher level it dissipates more heat because of the volume , doesn't get as hot and doesn't boil away ....... I think its fixed.

I have a suspension clunk to figure out when going over BIG bumps.....

I have a tiny oil leak somewhere

I need to do a tranny fluid / filter change

Oil change / filter

My factory radio sucks- few speaker outputs are defective .....I bought a cheap "sort" of period correct looking black Pyle audio unit to replace it with that has usb,sim,aux,blue display, 320 - 240 watts I cant seem to get a straight answer on what it puts out stock - they lie about the wattage figures these days - that will probably get put in next weekend ...anyway it should be better than this factory brick lol. DONE- PYLE 240 Watt head unit .

I also had something weird happening with the Fuel pressure gage at the carb- it would go through spells swinging wildly from say 6-50 psi back and forth like a wiper then it would stop and show a steady 6 psi for a long time then start swinging again . So the other day when it started doing it I ran around to the gas cap and pulled it off and ran around front and it stopped swinging wildly immediately . So I tightened the gas cap back down and let it idle another 10 minutes and it started to do it again ...so I ran around unscrewed the gas cap again and it stopped swinging again. We have no emissions inspections in Fl. So when I removed the charcoal canister I plugged the charcoal return line back to the tank with a carb vacuum cap/nipple as it didn't want fumes etc creeping up into the engine compartment after it was shut off . I think this must have created some weird suction or pressure phenom in the fuel lines even the regulator couldn't smooth out and correct ?????? So I drilled a small vent groove in the gas cap to defeat its oringed seal and it hasn't happened since !!!! Scratch head here - hey its fixed and you cant argue with success that's all I care about. W E I R D .

KILLemALL

iTrader: (3)

I would love to hear the new muffler when you get a chance,maybe a couple of fly bys.
I'm digging the thread,great info
Thanks

sootie007

Let me see what I can do for you .......

sootie007

Took it out for its first extended cruise yesterday and it ran great ....probably did 35 miles .....the only bad thing is I have an exhaust tick after things got warm .....this time its coming from the passenger header I think AAAARRRRGH ....so I picked up some copper header gaskets last night and I guess that will be next weekends project..... so lets wait until I get it buttoned up before shooting a video for you .......

KILLemALL

iTrader: (3)

Like you said,it's always something;-)

How many total break in miles on the gears?

sootie007

Around 300 right now ....I try to take it for a little spin whenever I can to build up the miles .

sootie007

AAAAARRRRRGH it broke down on me tonight about 3 miles from home with my 4 and 5 yo with me tonight...it just slowly died like it was running out of fuel then it died. Got out and the front fuel bowl was empty ....Turned ignition off for 10 seconds - turned it back on and got my 2 seconds of fuel pump prime viewed at my fuel log gage then the fuel pump shuts off and it dies after starting and burning through the front fuel bowls gas ...rinse repeat same thing again . I have 40-60 psi oil pressure going down the road so it must be that brand new oil pressure switch that has gone bad already and isn't keeping the fuel pump turned on ...I will just wire it closed all the time with its wiring back to the ecu and be done with it - I have a mechanical oil gage on it anyway . That little b.s. fiasco tonight cost me an $81 tow bill. Aaaaargh .

RamIt

I feel for ya. I ran out of gas 2 miles from the gas station and had to carry my 4 year old there and back. My shoulders have never recovered 100% (I'm 47).

sootie007

So my TBI to Carb swap car died the other night while driving it - I originally surmised it was the fuel pump not being told to stay on by a defective oil pressure switch..after reading all the heat soak , fuel percolation issues I am not so sure the oil pressure witch is to blame .... a few SPECIFIC facts ......

1.) Oil pressure switch is brand new..I replaced it during the swap when I discovered the original 138k mile one was bad. I have 40- 60 oil psi going down the road

2.) Car ran great ALL previous outings , never stalled etc after all tuning issues worked out ..... I am in H O T Florida .

3.) I am running the stock in tank fuel pump, feed and return lines to a Mallory 4309 mounted on the wheel well . My fuel lines are braided stainless from the 4309 over to my carb . They are not touching any hot engine surfaces . I noticed the carb is very hot to the touch after driving it awhile. I even made my fuel lines longer than necessary to avoid / dissipate the heat issues people had warned about .....

4.) I have a small 1/8 - inch hole drilled in my gas cap to alleviate crazy in tank pressures I saw by accident before this dying happened.

5.) When it died and had to be towed I had the LOWEST AMOUNT OF FUEL EVER in my tank - 1/4 tank showing on the gas gage since I purchased the car . My car runs ONLY 160 going down the road due to the way I have the fan wired (on all the time with the ignition on) - no thermostat etc. The fuel pump was not running continuously after the two second start prime on restarts. It primed every single time on restart attempts while hot. When it died the front fuel bowl was empty.

6.) The car died during a harder left turn.

All these things are adding up to the classic fuel / fuel pump heating issues everyone has been talking about for years on these cars ...there is no concrete - fix all answer I have seen to combat this "dying, percolation, fuel pump makes noise right before it dies, fuel starving, unreal pressure in the tank etc " when hot.

I am thinking to avoid all the b.s. associated with trying to track this down and end up being stranded again requiring a tow ($81 as I was close to home ) I may just reconfigure my fuel system to an old fashioned mechanical fuel pump drawing through the "defused" "dead' original electric in tank pump which I have read you can do quite easily due to it being a rotary vane type pump.

Anybody have feelings either way on this proposed problem / fix ?

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

I tried running a mechanical pump and it wouldn't work BECAUSE of the heat problems.

Have you tried putting a few wooden clothespins on the fuel line? It helps to fight this, and actually works. (plus it's a fun conversation starter when you have your hood popped).

If heat soak, fuel boiling, etc. is your problem then a good pump in the tank OR a good electric pusher pump should fix it.

The factory carb cars had a mechanical pump AND an in-tank pump to prevent this issue.

Hope that helps.

SouthSide2

So what is the fuel flow and fuel pressure after fuel filter at carb? If it's 4/6 psi and your still not filling the carb somethings wrong with the carb. Maybe an electric problem? I have had trouble with vats, do to high heat in Ohio. Never died just would not start.

sootie007

I have been thinking about this in great detail ......

When it died the front fuel bowl was totally empty when viewed through glass sight plugs (which indicates the fuel pump for whatever reason was not functioning at that specific time ) VERY IMPORTANT FACT !

Every restart attempt my fuel log gage went to 6-7 psi for 2 seconds (prime) the car started then fuel psi immediately bled down to zero psi like the fuel pump was not being enabled beyond prime ...naturally the car would start then run the front fuel bowl dry and die again ......you could repeat this process over and over .......so the fuel pump WORKED ON EVERY restart attempt. SO THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT THE FUEL PUMP IS/WAS / HAD THE ABILITY TO RUN - IT SIMPLY WAS NOT BEING TOLD TO RUN AS EVIDENCED BY THE 2 SECOND PRIME WORKING EVERY TIME ON RESTART ATTEMPTS. I AM BLAMING EITHER THE OIL PRESSURE SWITCH NOT PROVIDING THE ECU WITH A CORRECT PSI READING TO ENABLE THE FUEL PUMP OR SIMPLY THE ECU AT THIS POINT.

I have two choices ...I can either

Short the gray to orange wires together on the Fuel pump relay and see if that cures it. This will bypass the Oil PSI switch...SO any time the key is turned on the fuel pump will be forced to run which will enable the fuel pump beyond the 2 second prime the ecu normally gives it when it reads good oil pressure. This may NOT be the solution and I may need a tow again after it gets hot ...risky .

OR

I can reconfigure and run a mechanical fuel pump on the block. This will rid me of the ECU, FUEL PUMP RELAY and OIL PRESSURE SWITCH loop altogether for a simpler fuel delivery system.

Additionally I would HAVE TO pull the in tank fuel pump fuse and pull my fuel through the "dead" rotary vane pump supposedly without any issues from what I have read.

I like the old simpler mechanical approaches better.....Chevrolet ran mechanical pumps for EONS reliably , I think I may chose the mechanical pump option...this car has 138k on it - I am assuming the in tank pump is original - so its probably going to go anyway soon, I also get rid of the electric ecu , fuel pump relay , oil psi -control circuit issues, fuel possibly runs cooler since the electric pump isn't running anymore AND I will have to run some longer fuel lines over to the mechanical pump which should dissipate more heat away from the fuel and carb.



NOTES : OZZ1967 Re: NO FUEL TO CARB!
Quote: Originally Posted by t-top havoc View Post
Just had a thought --
If the tank pump is not working, would the manual pump be able to draw thru it ?

My manual pump pulled through the dead electric pump in my car for I don't know how long until I replaced both with an in-tank 255lph pump.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

the factory electric stuff has been done for decades as well and i prefer its quick starting to the old days any day. your understanding of the factory setup is incorrect, the pcm primes the pump via the relay then turns back on once the engine starts. the ops is a redundant circuit thats suppose to be separate from the pcm to get you home if the pcm or relay stops functioning. if the pump works in prime but not when running there is two problems the ops and whatever makes the pcm send the engine on the enable the pump relay again.

sootie007

Bird, thanks for the reply....... my understanding of the PCM operation is its the signal from the Electronic distributor that tells the pcm to enable the fuel pump via relay and or the OPS .

BUT when you switch out to a Mechanical distributor like I did when carb swapping you lose that factory distributor signal back to the pcm .......so at that point you are TOTALLY relying on the OPS to keep the fuel pump enabled....tons of stories on here about those OP switches going bad - in fact my original one was bad and was preventing the car from running originally....see earlier in this thread.

Have to admit I am still baffled to some extent , with the tons of posts on here of fueling issues once hot, fuel pump sound changing when hot , headers too close to fuel lines ,percolation, heat soak , stalling going around corners , crazy tank pressures , tanks not venting properly , boiling sounds coming from tank etc. etc.....ETHANOL surely isn't helping either..I have seen a few videos showing boiling of that fuel at 160-180 degrees...here is something I read very interesting the higher the octane the "LOWER" the boiling point - goes against what you would think it would be .
Maybe that is why the problem has gotten worse in the last decade on these cars because the fuel system when hot was marginal to begin with 23 yrs ago as evidenced by the factory running a bandaid fix with both mechanical pump and in tank electric pump and a carb fan in the same system .......additionally the fuel boiling point has been lowered with the alcohol blends today - so theres the roots of our problem...

All I know at this point for sure was that I had my prime signal each and every restart time BUT I was not getting fuel pump enabled after those two seconds of prime after it died . I still am leaning to going with a mechanical pump and be done with all this troubleshooting of the RELAY , OPS , PCM and potentially needing a tow again - with 138k that electric pump probably doesn't have much life left in it anyway ...that's probably the way I will go - mechanical pump .........

Update the new OPS had gone bad .....I bypassed it by simply wiring the fuel pump relay to the switched ignition +12 . Turn the key on -fuel pump is turned on .

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

the ops goes bad prematurely because they are not meant to handle the current of the pump on its own all the time. you should get a new one and use it to control the original relay and it will last much longer. you can cut the gray on the ops and run it to the relay, solder it to the dr green/white. if you leave it connected to the pcm and the relay you will retain the prime. if you want to get rid of the pcm you can rig a switch or just wire it to a keyed hot and it will be on all the time, not the best setup IMO. if you wire it like i said it will cut off itself if the engine dies for any reason.

Mortorq

sootie,
I'm pullin' for you. You're going to be the carb section hero when you solve this third gen issue.

Didn't know you could draw through the in tank pump & use the engine mounted mechanical pump. Thought that was almost urban legend.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

dont think you can, seems like seen on here issues with lack of fuel because people try it. you have to use it or take it out and put a carb type sender/pickup for the mech pump

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

A mechanical pump, on it's own, will not properly feed a carb'd version of these cars. numerous people have tried it (myself included). You can get by with an electric pusher and a regulator, but not just the mechanical.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Says who???? I ran a stock replacement pump on my 1983 G20 van on a ~300+ HP 350 and it fed it just fine. The van pulls fuel from 2x the distance of a F-car.

I helped setup a 468 big block in one of these cars and it had an edelbrock 13-14 psi, 130 gph mechanical pump and a regulator.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Says GM.

The way I read Sootie's post was that he was tired of troubleshooting and was going to just throw a factory replacement mechanical pump onto his car and be done with it.

Having tried the same thing, I can say that it does not and will not work. With the routing of the fuel lines in a thirdgen in relation to the exhaust (assuming you're running headers) the fuel just does not make it to the engine before it starts to boil (because, the stock pumps can't keep up) once you reach operating temperature. I'm sure with a higher quality pump, like the one you mentioned, it could work. I apologize for not making that clear.

This was why GM started putting the electric pump in the tank to assist the mechanical (and why I did away with it all and mounted a holley blue pump to a sump on my tank).

Your van is a moot point. There are plenty of carb'd cars and trucks that run a mechanical pump with no issues. I'm talking about thirdgens.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its not really a mute point at all. It has the same pump that happens to have fuel feed lines almost touching the manifolds as they run along them and over 2x the distance to pull fuel.

The electric pump was GMs attempt to stop a long cranking problem with the L69 cars and later LG4 cars. They also retrofited in a cooling fan for the carburetor to blow air across it if the coolant temperature switch was hot enough to make it run.

That being said if this was attempted on your 385 HP fastburn engine I can understand why you had issues with a stock replacement pump for a car with more than 2x the stock HP.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Red, I think the thing you are overlooking is the location of your 83 lines and that of a FI car. When I got my car 15 years ago it had the TPI fuel lines and I had an 85 carbed parts car. I was going the "smart route" and changed to the lines just like you have. I had zero problems with them until I put headers on, even with a non return style pump. Battling the problem still once in a while, when I idle too long in a drive thru it will start running like crap. A little rev and it will move some extra fuel and be fine. I used insulating wrap on the line where it goes by the exhaust, return style pump and a phenolic mount plate for the pump.(Sofas dual gasket fix to the extreme) I just have to break down and reroute the supply line away from the exhaust. There is maybe enough room to slip a finger between the two. Not sure how close the TBI lines are on the DS though.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Yup, you're right. I totally was overlooking that. I take for granted sometimes how similar these cars were but then forget about some of the minor differences (like fuel line routing between years). Thanks for clearing that up.

sootie007

Finally had some time to troubleshoot the fuel pump issue ....I said the hell with it and ended up putting an ignition switched +12 to the grey wire coming off the Fuel pump relay ... the relay is the one on the right hand side when viewed from the front of my 91 -behind the bracket near the brake booster . Its working so far - I think the o.p.s. switch simply burned out - too much current ??? Who knows it was a fresh replacement switch and only around 5 months old . I still have the fuel pressure wildly swinging thing happening where it swings wildly from say 6-10 psi intermittently then stops doing that for awhile stays at 6 psi steady then starts swinging wildly again ?????????? I am running the factory in tank electric pump and the 4309 return style regulator .

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

you have to put the key voltage on the green white so you can use the factory relay, you bypassed the relay and the pump is drawing the power from wherever you took it from, not good. the ops is a redundant path, the relay is supposed to carry the current. no wonder you are burning them out, not designed to be used all the time just in a get you home situation till you fix the relay circuit.

redneckjoe

i hate the electric pumps because of breaking down. years ago i removed the in tank pump, made a pick-up, installed a mechanical pump and regulator. i've had no problems at all. gas gauge still works too.
best of luck getting it running better. sure sounds like a fuel delivery problem.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

mine has the original 27 year old v6 pump and i converted to carb like ten years ago and a 400hp crate engine like 8years ago. if it ever goes bad i will spend the 30 or 40 bucks on a new one

sootie007

Well the fuel pump is working fine now with the wiring mod....so I decided to go after the heat soak -possible fuel percolation issue - where the car sits turned off for say 15-20 minutes heat soaking - then you try to restart it - it then acts like the fuel is boiled out of it at the bowls - finally starts runs like crap - then rev it a few times once started - that gets some fresh fuel up into the carb bowls and it runs like a champ after that ....I had the 3/8th inch thick spongey black thick base gasket on there that came with the Summit carb...evidently it doesn't offer enough heat isolation . I bought one of those 1/2 inch PLASTIC 4 hole carb spacers off ebay with 2 gaskets and it appears to keep the carb ALOT cooler now ....after driving it awhile down here in hot Florida the fuel bowls would be really hot where you almost couldn't touch it ....my egr ports in the heads are blocked with the intake gasket on my heads to the intake manifold .....now after extended idling etc you can still touch the carb -no problem at all with a bare hand and it feels 20-30 degrees cooler ...... I think its fixed but an extended drive and 3-5 restarts after being hot should tell the final story and I can claim victory .......the next issue is now the air cleaner is now hitting the hood just barely when closed due to the 1/2 inch carb spacer.... I am thinking a 1/4 inch shorter air filter should solve that last issue. Also I thought I would mention that I noticed the carb mounted fuel pressure gage is not swinging as "wildly" so far - so maybe that carb heat was causing those crazy psi needle swings rapidly back and forth after it got hot ??????????? Time will tell .....will keep you all posted ....