1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
02-03-2004, 02:31 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
1227302 to 1227165 swap
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
02-03-2004, 03:34 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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02-03-2004, 04:19 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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More links, more identification.
Good page with general info on 165 pinout
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/
which leads to this diagram with full descriptions and WIRE COLORS.. behold
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...165v8tpi-6.jpg
I think we've got all the 165 info we need... now, if someone wouldn't mind actually giving me a bit of a hand, some info on the 302 would be much appreciated, because it's *not* out there.. and I know there's experts floating around here with more info than we really want to know about stored in their heads...
Good page with general info on 165 pinout
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/
which leads to this diagram with full descriptions and WIRE COLORS.. behold
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...165v8tpi-6.jpg
I think we've got all the 165 info we need... now, if someone wouldn't mind actually giving me a bit of a hand, some info on the 302 would be much appreciated, because it's *not* out there.. and I know there's experts floating around here with more info than we really want to know about stored in their heads...
02-03-2004, 04:23 PM
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165 swap
Originally posted by TechSmurf
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier.
As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask.
RBob.
02-03-2004, 04:28 PM
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165 swap
If you want a v6 P4 high frequency MAF then you might investigate the 8352. While the cal only goes to like 170 Gm/sec, using an LT MAF and frequency charts would give you the 255.
All in theory mind you, the 8253 being for DIS, you'd have a steep curve on learning the ecm but it'd be kinda neat, I think.
02-03-2004, 08:59 PM
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I'm just trying to accomplish gathering enough information to feel 100% certain about the swap. In reality, I won't be facing the MAF issue, since as I said I'm heading in the Sy/Ty 7749 direction... the 302 and 165 use a very similar pinout.. many seem to match up directly.
Seeing as the 302 to 165 swap seems fairly straight foward, once enough data has been gathered to go 165, using the 165 to 7730 and 165 to 7749 swap guides opens up pandora's box for the V6s. I'd really prefer to move away from maf, but this is just the easiest step to get the project to a point where readily available documentation becomes useful.
I've been staring at pinouts of the 165 from various sources and the one pinout of the 302 that I have, and should have an initial pinout conversion alpha chart tonight for review.
Seeing as the 302 to 165 swap seems fairly straight foward, once enough data has been gathered to go 165, using the 165 to 7730 and 165 to 7749 swap guides opens up pandora's box for the V6s. I'd really prefer to move away from maf, but this is just the easiest step to get the project to a point where readily available documentation becomes useful.
I've been staring at pinouts of the 165 from various sources and the one pinout of the 302 that I have, and should have an initial pinout conversion alpha chart tonight for review.
02-03-2004, 09:23 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
Engine: LS1, Scrap
Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
Originally posted by RBob
I was wondering when someone would do this swap. For full wiring diagrams of the '165 as used in f-body's go here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227165/
I was wondering when someone would do this swap. For full wiring diagrams of the '165 as used in f-body's go here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227165/
Particularly useful. Thanks, Rbob.
You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier.
A PM to TomP will be out hopefully getting him to chime in momentarily. Good suggestion, was considering it myself. Call it a majority vote now
As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask.
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02-03-2004, 09:55 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
Pulled, new diagram below.
(These diagrams are huge.. one per page is enough)
(These diagrams are huge.. one per page is enough
) Last edited by TechSmurf; 02-05-2004 at 09:03 PM.
02-05-2004, 08:31 PM
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Rbob...
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:
02-05-2004, 09:19 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
Engine: LS1, Scrap
Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
Pinout Swap Diagram, take 2
This leaves the non-OK as:
Which gives us what appears to be a good conversion.
Harness repin, in 302 order
Need to make sure MAF is grounded after this swap, as A11 is left empty. 165 may want MAF ground at pin A11. This will require actual testing. Please feel free to post any other issues you see.
Code:
Pin 302 165 SOLUTION A1 Fuel Pump Relay Fuel Pump Relay OK A2 A/C Clutch AIR Valve - Port DISCONNECT A3 AB_GATE Evap Purge OK A4 AB_EGR EGR Control OK A5 SES SES OK A6 VIGN VIGN OK A7 AB_TCC TCC/SHIFT OK A8 ALDL ALDL (data) OK A9 DIAG DIAG (mode) OK A10 VSS VSS OK A11 MAT MAF GND 302 A11 -> 165 C12 A12 GND GND (Chassis) OK B1 BATT BATT OK B2 Fuel Pump Signal Fuel Pump Signal OK B3 ESTLO EST Ref Low OK B4 EST -UNUSED- 302 B4 -> 165 D4 B5 ESTHI Dist. Ref (ESTHI) OK B6 MAF Signal VATS (Unused) 302 B6 -> 165 B12 B7 KNOCK (Unused?) KNOCK OK (No Knock Sensor?) B8 A/C Request A/C Request OK B9 PSPS (power steering) -UNUSED- DISCONNECT TPI =No PS Switch B10 Park/Neutral Park/Neutral OK B11 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- (ESC) OK B12 -UNUSED- MAF Signal 302 B6 -> 165 B12 C1 no connection FAN 302 D2 -> 165 C1 C2 AIR Conv Solenoid AIR Conv Valve OK C3 IAC BLO IAC "B" LO OK C4 IAC BHI IAC "B" HI OK C5 IAC AHI IAC "A" HI OK C6 IAC ALO IAC "A" LO OK C7 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- OK C8 4th Gear Signal 4th Gear (Unused?) OK C9 A/C Fan Req -UNUSED- 302 C9 -> 165 D11 C10 CTS CTS OK C11 -UNUSED- (MAP) -UNUSED- (MAP) OK C12 TPS Back-up MAT Signal 302 A11 -> 165 C12 C13 TPS Signal TPS Signal OK C14 TPS +5V Reference TPS +5V Reference OK C15 -> D14 (INJ135) EGR Diag 302 D8 -> 165 C15, 302 C15 DISC C16 BATT BATT OK D1 GND GND (Chassis) OK D2 FAN GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) 302 D2 -> 165 C1, 302 D13 -> 165 D2 D3 -UNUSED- (8CYL) GND (Chassis) OK (May require no ground) D4 -UNUSED- EST (Ctrl) 302 B4 -> 165 D4 D5 BYPASS BYPASS (EST) OK D6 02LO O2LO (GND) OK D7 O2HI O2HI (Signal) OK D8 EGR Diag Switch -UNUSED- (MAP2) 302 D8 -> 165 C15 D9 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- (INJSENSE) OK D10 GND GND (Chassis) OK D11 -UNUSED- A/C Pressure Switch 302 C9 -> 165 D11 D12 GND/UNUSED MAF Burn Off DISCONNECT, New wire if needed D13 GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) -UNUSED- 302 D13 -> 165 D2 D14 INJ135 -UNUSED- 302 D14 DISCONNECT D15 INJ246 INJ (1357) 302 D15 -> 165 D16 D16 -> INJ246 -> INJ (2468) 302 D16 -> 165 D15
Code:
Pin 302 165 SOLUTION A2 A/C Clutch AIR Valve - Port DISCONNECT A11 MAT MAF GND 302 A11 -> 165 C12 B4 EST -UNUSED- 302 B4 -> 165 D4 B6 MAF Signal VATS (Unused) 302 B6 -> 165 B12 B7 KNOCK (Unused?) KNOCK (No Knock Sensor?) B9 PSPS (power steering) -UNUSED- DISCONNECT TPI =No PS Switch B12 -UNUSED- MAF Signal 302 B6 -> 165 B12 C1 no connection FAN 302 D2 -> 165 C1 C9 A/C Fan Req -UNUSED- 302 C9 -> 165 D11 C12 TPS Back-up MAT Signal 302 A11 -> 165 C12 C15 -> D14 (INJ135) EGR Diag 302 D8 -> 165 C15, 302 C15 DISC D2 FAN GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) 302 D2 -> 165 C1, 302 D13 -> 165 D2 D3 -UNUSED- (8CYL) GND (Chassis) OK (May require no ground) D4 -UNUSED- EST (Ctrl) 302 B4 -> 165 D4 D8 EGR Diag Switch -UNUSED- (MAP2) 302 D8 -> 165 C15 D11 -UNUSED- A/C Pressure Switch 302 C9 -> 165 D11 D12 GND/UNUSED MAF Burn Off DISCONNECT, New wire if needed D13 GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) -UNUSED- 302 D13 -> 165 D2 D14 INJ135 -UNUSED- 302 D14 DISCONNECT D15 INJ246 INJ (1357) 302 D15 -> 165 D16 D16 -> INJ246 -> INJ (2468) 302 D16 -> 165 D15
Harness repin, in 302 order
Code:
A 2 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
A 11 --> C 12
B 4 --> D 4
B 6 --> B 12
B 7 -- New wire to ESC module pin B (unless
we really do have a knock sensor already)
B 9 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
C 9 --> D 11
C 12 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
C 15 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 2 --> C 1
D 8 --> C 15
D 12 --> DISCONNECT if present, new wire needed for
MAF Burn-off relay if using Hot-wire MAF
D 13 --> C 2
D 14 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 15 --> D 16
D 16 --> D 15
ALDL E --> ALDL M Last edited by TechSmurf; 02-05-2004 at 09:58 PM.
02-06-2004, 07:45 AM
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Here's that Pandora's Box I was talking about...
It could be a *while* before I finish the javascript that should make that whole table make sense.. so if you're feeling gutsy, work with that thing for now.
There may also be an ERROR concerning the translation of the terms "A/C Fan Request" and "A/C Pressure Switch" ... not quite sure what to do with it.
Code:
Chart removed.. again, one of these giant things per thread is enough :)
There may also be an ERROR concerning the translation of the terms "A/C Fan Request" and "A/C Pressure Switch" ... not quite sure what to do with it.
Last edited by TechSmurf; 07-28-2004 at 04:12 AM.
07-25-2004, 03:53 AM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
This thread is going active again!!! *pats the 749 sitting next to him*
I'm going to be going over the data on the repin over the next couple weeks preparing for a dry run (power only) and add one system at a time, making sure everything works. Figure 2-3 months before I'm done with the swap, working on it every once in a while.
I'm going to be going over the data on the repin over the next couple weeks preparing for a dry run (power only) and add one system at a time, making sure everything works. Figure 2-3 months before I'm done with the swap, working on it every once in a while.
07-26-2004, 06:13 AM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg
07-26-2004, 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by TechSmurf
If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg
If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg
RBob.
07-26-2004, 12:30 PM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
Engine: LS1, Scrap
Transmission: T56, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
Said file is in ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/uploads/
Thanks, didn't think to check in there... but it's still not exactly what I was looking for. The incomplete multi-page sunbird ones have also been sitting in my printer output tray since before I made that request. I'm looking for that particular image because of how complete it is.
Thanks, didn't think to check in there... but it's still not exactly what I was looking for. The incomplete multi-page sunbird ones have also been sitting in my printer output tray since before I made that request. I'm looking for that particular image because of how complete it is.
07-28-2004, 04:13 AM
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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Axle/Gears: 3.42 Stock ZT, 3.42 Open
It's coming together a bit more
Code:
Chart moved... agian....
Last edited by TechSmurf; 12-06-2005 at 11:27 AM.
12-17-2004, 01:14 AM
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And here's a 302->749 adapter, mostly complete
01-07-2005, 07:44 PM
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29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well
02-14-2005, 12:48 PM
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unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
02-15-2005, 08:15 AM
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Car: 97' aurora and 85 camaro - 88 camaro
Engine: 355 tpi and 4.0 northstar
Transmission: 350 turbo and 700-r4
You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
02-15-2005, 01:54 PM
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Transmission: check
Originally posted by Geyservillebob
unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
I'd bet the '7302 also has one driver {edit: lost that bet, the '7302 has two drivers, both driven at the same time}.
RBob.
Last edited by RBob; 02-15-2005 at 02:24 PM.
02-15-2005, 01:56 PM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by 88to85rescam
You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
RBob.
12-06-2005, 11:25 AM
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Alright! The 749 is in! Car starts... isn't totally happy, but I'm pretty sure that's a spark problem.
Code:
CON == Connected as shown NC == Not Connected NEW == New Wire PROV == Connected and Proven (Via Datalog or Function) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Function (Note) (Color on 302) 302 165 730 749 PROV Fuel Pump Relay (Dk Grn/Wht) A1 A1 A11 A11 NC A/C Clutch (Lt Blu) A2 F1 NC Evap Purge (Dk Grn/Yel) A3 A3 F7 F7 *** NC EGR Control (Gry) A4 A4 E9 E9 PROV SES (Brn/Wht) A5 A5 E7 E7 PROV VIGN (Ignition-On) (Pnk/Blk) A6 A6 A6 A6 NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4 NC SHIFT A7 A7 F1 (F4?) CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9 CON Diagnostic (ALDL B) (Wht/Blk) A9 A9 E12 E12 NC VSS Signal Input (Brn) A10 A10 C6 C6 NC MAT Signal Input (B) (Tan) A11 C12 F16 F16 PROV GND (Chassis/ALDL A) (Blk/Wht) A12 A12 A12 A12 PROV +12V Constant (Orn) B1 B1 B1 B1 NC Fuel Pump Signal (Tan/Wht) B2 B2 E13 E13 (Unused?) CON EST Dist. Ref Low (Blk/Red) B3 B3 D9 D9 CON EST Signal Output (Wht) B4 D4 C8 C8 CON EST Dist. Ref High (Ppl/Wht) B5 B5 D8 D8 NC Digital MAF Signal (Brn/Wht) B6 -- -- -- NC Analog MAF Signal -- B12 -- -- NC ???VATS B6 F10 F10??? NC EST Retard (Knock Sensor IN) -- -- F9 F9 NC A/C Request (Dk Grn/Wht) B8 B8 C9 C9 NC PSPS (power steering) (Gry) B9 -- D13 NC Park/Neutral Switch (Orn/Blk) B10 B10 D16 D16 NC AIR Conv Solenoid (Brn) C2 C2 F4 F4 CON IAC "B" LO (Lt Grn/Blk) C3 C3 E6 E6 CON IAC "B" HI (Lt Grn/Wht) C4 C4 E5 E5 CON IAC "A" HI (Lt Blu/Wht) C5 C5 E3 E3 CON IAC "A" LO (Lt Blu/Blk) C6 C6 E4 E4 NC 4th Gear Signal (Lt Blu) C8 C8 D14 D14 (See RFCs) NC A/C Fan Req (Blu) C9 D11 CON Coolant Temp Input (Yel) C10 C10 E16 E16 NC TPS Back-up (Dk Blu) C12 -- -- -- CON TPS Signal (B) (Dk Blu) C13 C13 F13 F13 CON TPS +5V Reference (C) (Gry) C14 C14 A5 A5 PROV BATT (Orn) C16 C16 C16 C16 PROV GND (Chassis) (Blk/Wht) D1 D1 D1 D1 NC FAN (Dk Grn/Wht) D2 C1 E8 E8 NC 8CYL Hard Switch -- D3 CON EST Bypass (Tan/Blk) D5 D5 C7 C7 CON O2LO (GND) (Tan) D6 D6 D6 E15 CON O2HI (Signal) (Ppl) D7 D7 C8 E14 NC EGR Diag Switch (Wht) D8 C15 D14 D14 (See RFCs) NC GND (Chassis) D10 D10 D7 D7 NC MAF Burn Off -- D12 -- -- CON GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) (Blk) D13 D2 B5 B5 CON Injector Bank A/1 (246 Lt Blu) D14,D16 D15 C11 C11 CON Injector Bank B/2 (135 Lt Grn) D15,C15 D16 C10 C10 MAF Analog Ground -- A11 -- -- AIR Valve Port -- A2 F2 F2 NEW MAP Ground (A - Blk) -- -- B6 B6 NEW MAP Signal (B - Lt Grn) -- -- F15 F15 NEW MAP +5V Reference (C - Gra) -- -- A4 A4 NEW '749 D5-to-D6 and C13-to-C15 Jumper Wires (Injector Sense) IAC works as shown. RFCs: 749 Supplemental Info / Requests for Insight: According to current documents, the turbo 749 does not employ an evap purge output on the ECU... which I find rather odd. I'm assuming it's really there, just not in the documents. It's listed as "unused" for the Sunbird and simply F7OUT for the ECU, but http://speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/86to92.txt lists it as the EVAP purge. Insight? Pin D14 conflicts between documents as the 4th gear switch and EGR Vacuum Diagnostic switch. Assume actual purpose is software-dependant. So far, *all* of my conflicting information is courtesy http://speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/86to92.txt ... the question is... who's right? Resources: RBob of ThirdGen.Org http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165schematic.html http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227749schematic.html http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/ ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manuals/1227749/ ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manuals/1227165/ ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/uploads/SyTyWiring.zip http://speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/86to92.txt
Last edited by TechSmurf; 12-06-2005 at 11:28 AM.
12-07-2005, 02:14 AM
#28
Originally posted by TechSmurf
29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well
29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well
12-09-2005, 11:23 AM
#30
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Hah.. yanno, the sad thing is I ended up using an extra socket as a riser to make the low profile socket clear the netres anyway, so it's still almost that tall :P
12-11-2005, 01:21 PM
#31
That almost fits under the stock cover as it sits, but the ZIF is just pushed into a normal push in socket that is soldered to the memcal so when I have a tune that I like I can just pop the zif out, pop the chip in, button it all up and it’s done.
12-11-2005, 01:28 PM
#32
I did have to modify the KS board to sit lower and in a slightly different position then it does from the factory to clear the big overhang on that socket, but that wasn’t a big deal really.
The whole thing was part of my 165/730/749 swap, which only really took me an hour of actual repining (and worked out of the box once I figured out that tunerpro was calculating checksums incorrectly), but that was because in the end I ignored much of what was already up out there when I found that some of the pinout on the speedtoys and linked sites didn’t actually work out right according to the factory wiring diagrams. At some point I’ll have to type those up and post them somewhere to prevent all the “I did it like it said and it won’t run/idle/whatever right…” posts.
The whole thing was part of my 165/730/749 swap, which only really took me an hour of actual repining (and worked out of the box once I figured out that tunerpro was calculating checksums incorrectly), but that was because in the end I ignored much of what was already up out there when I found that some of the pinout on the speedtoys and linked sites didn’t actually work out right according to the factory wiring diagrams. At some point I’ll have to type those up and post them somewhere to prevent all the “I did it like it said and it won’t run/idle/whatever right…” posts.
01-04-2006, 02:49 PM
#33
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: 5.7L EFI LTR setup
Transmission: T-5 World Class
Hay guys I am trying to dig stuff up on the 165 to 749 ECM swap . I am a little affraid to start doing it but ... I kinda have to if I wanna get the most out of my turbo setup.
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
01-04-2006, 02:54 PM
#34
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: 5.7L EFI LTR setup
Transmission: T-5 World Class
Originally posted by D's89IROCZ
Hay guys I am trying to dig stuff up on the 165 to 749 ECM swap . I am a little affraid to start doing it but ... I kinda have to if I wanna get the most out of my turbo setup.
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
Hay guys I am trying to dig stuff up on the 165 to 749 ECM swap . I am a little affraid to start doing it but ... I kinda have to if I wanna get the most out of my turbo setup.
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
also . I am seeing that some pins are located to a spot that starts with an F ...I don't see that location on any of the punout locations you guys posted up ? Kinda confused here
01-09-2006, 02:04 AM
#35
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Originally posted by D's89IROCZ
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
also . I am seeing that some pins are located to a spot that starts with an F ...I don't see that location on any of the punout locations you guys posted up ? Kinda confused here
01-11-2006, 03:31 PM
#36
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: 5.7L EFI LTR setup
Transmission: T-5 World Class
I appreciate the feedback . I was worried I wouldn't get any because when you reply to a sticky ...it doesn;t light up
So for the ones not conncted "NC " It is safe to just leave that location void of a wire ? Just don't want to fry anything
thanx a bunch man !
So for the ones not conncted "NC " It is safe to just leave that location void of a wire ? Just don't want to fry anything
thanx a bunch man !
10-04-2006, 12:12 AM
#37
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Car: 1985 Camaro, 1986 Trans Am
Engine: 5.0L carbed and 5.0L TPI
Transmission: TH700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 and 3.27 posi
For the '302 to '730 ecm swap;
Injector bank A/1 '302 at D14,D15 - '730 at C11
Do I connect both D14 and D15 to C11 on the '730 harness? (Same with bank B/2 I assume?)
EDIT: OK, after looking at my '302 schematics I have determined that D15 and C15 are jumpers so I shouldn't have to connect them to my '730 harness, right?
Injector bank A/1 '302 at D14,D15 - '730 at C11
Do I connect both D14 and D15 to C11 on the '730 harness? (Same with bank B/2 I assume?)
EDIT: OK, after looking at my '302 schematics I have determined that D15 and C15 are jumpers so I shouldn't have to connect them to my '730 harness, right?
Last edited by RSFreak; 10-10-2006 at 02:23 AM.
10-10-2006, 02:28 AM
#38
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Car: 1985 Camaro, 1986 Trans Am
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Axle/Gears: 3.23 and 3.27 posi
After checking each wire to make sure there would be no issues during my swap, I found that C10 on my '730 harness has no wire. I consulted my '730 schematic and determined that C12 is in fact the location for Injector Bank B/2, not C10 as shown above. If anyone has any info to the contrary, please post it as I am really wanting to get this swap done!
06-21-2007, 05:37 PM
#39
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: 5.7L EFI LTR setup
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
K , so the above two notpad documents .... they contradict eachother totally.
I am lost as to which pinout notes to use . The first one says one thing ..... the next one says totally different pinout locations .....what do I use ?
I am lost as to which pinout notes to use . The first one says one thing ..... the next one says totally different pinout locations .....what do I use ?
06-21-2007, 05:56 PM
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: 5.7L EFI LTR setup
Transmission: T-5 World Class
Re: 1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
first notpad document gives these changes
165-749 swap only pins moved
A2 - disconnect
A11- C12
B4 - B12
B-6 B12
B12- B12 *
C1-C1*
C9- D11
c12-c12 *
c15-c15*
D2-C1
D4-D4*
D8-C15
D11-D11*
D12- DISCONNECT ...new wire if needed
D13-D2
D14 UNUSED-D2 ( is theere a wire there in the first place ? )
D15-D16
D16-D15
the next notpad document gives these pinout changes ..
A1 -A11
?- F1
A3-F7*** ??? what does this mean ?
A4- E9
A5- E7
A7-F4
A7- F4? <--- do I change it or not ?
A8-A9
A9-E12
A10- C6
C12- F16
B2-E13 unused ???? what does that mean ..should i hook it up ?
B3-D9
D4-C8
B5-B8
B12- -- <---- WHat does that mean ?
B6-F10
-- - F9 <---- is that a jumper ? or what comes from there ??
-- - D13 <---- agian what is there in the first place
B10 - D16
C2-F4
C3-E6
C4- E5
C5- E3
C6- E4
C8-D14 see RFC's <--- what ar ethese RFCs?
D11 - nothing posted here ..what to do ?
C10-E16
C13-F13
C14-A5
C1-E8
D3- <--- nothing posted there ?
D5-c7
D6-E15
D7-E14
C15-D14 See RFCs <--- where are these ?
D10-D7
D12- -- Where does this go?
D2-B5
D15- C11
A11- -- Where does this go?
A2-F2
-- - B6 ??????? what goes there ?
-- - F15
-- - A4 ?????? what comes from there to A-4
165-749 swap only pins moved
A2 - disconnect
A11- C12
B4 - B12
B-6 B12
B12- B12 *
C1-C1*
C9- D11
c12-c12 *
c15-c15*
D2-C1
D4-D4*
D8-C15
D11-D11*
D12- DISCONNECT ...new wire if needed
D13-D2
D14 UNUSED-D2 ( is theere a wire there in the first place ? )
D15-D16
D16-D15
the next notpad document gives these pinout changes ..
A1 -A11
?- F1
A3-F7*** ??? what does this mean ?
A4- E9
A5- E7
A7-F4
A7- F4? <--- do I change it or not ?
A8-A9
A9-E12
A10- C6
C12- F16
B2-E13 unused ???? what does that mean ..should i hook it up ?
B3-D9
D4-C8
B5-B8
B12- -- <---- WHat does that mean ?
B6-F10
-- - F9 <---- is that a jumper ? or what comes from there ??
-- - D13 <---- agian what is there in the first place
B10 - D16
C2-F4
C3-E6
C4- E5
C5- E3
C6- E4
C8-D14 see RFC's <--- what ar ethese RFCs?
D11 - nothing posted here ..what to do ?
C10-E16
C13-F13
C14-A5
C1-E8
D3- <--- nothing posted there ?
D5-c7
D6-E15
D7-E14
C15-D14 See RFCs <--- where are these ?
D10-D7
D12- -- Where does this go?
D2-B5
D15- C11
A11- -- Where does this go?
A2-F2
-- - B6 ??????? what goes there ?
-- - F15
-- - A4 ?????? what comes from there to A-4
10-27-2007, 11:26 AM
#42
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165 swap
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
01-20-2008, 10:32 PM
#43
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
Thought I'd provide a link for v6'ers wanting to convert to a '165. I started my swap using this info and quickly found the flaws in it. The repin's mostly correct, but missed a few critical points. Here's a more thorough guide -> https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...take-look.html
08-08-2012, 07:12 AM
#44
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Car: 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: TPIS II Supercharged w/Nitrous
Transmission: 700R4 Probuilt
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Richmond 12 Bolt
Re: 1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
I did that swap before I realized that the 749 wasn't what I wanted as it wasn't going to support a 16 injector system. I finally pulled the entire wiring harness with ECM and PROM to install an XFI DFI..
Remember some key points
165 uses MAF and ESC and a Knock Sensor
730 uses MAP and uses a 350 knock sensor.. different than the 165's
749 uses a 3 Bar Map and only a few wires are moved from the 730 setup.
For anyone doing this conversion.. Since the 165 only has 2 plugs going into the ECM, I would label each wire with tape on every wire before removing them from the plug. The 730 uses 3 plugs and all the wires from the 2 plug system have to be transferred.. The only difference on the 749 was IACV , the TCC, ALDL and a couple of other wires.. I don't remember which ones.. If I wasn't in Afghanistan, I would upload my entire book that I used for the full conversion.
If you aren't planning on boosting your engine with a turbo or super charging it, it isn't worth the swap to do the 749.. That is what the cyclone, typoon and the Grand National and turbo Sunbird cars used.. You can still use the 730 with a boosted application.. You can use the AUJP on either ECM. If you use a boosted application I would definately use the $59 from code59.net.. Remember that you will have to use C.A.T.S. or tunerpro and shut off the VATS in the programming, and then have fun with the tuning.. You engine is almost guarenteed to run like crap until you tune it.
Remember some key points
165 uses MAF and ESC and a Knock Sensor
730 uses MAP and uses a 350 knock sensor.. different than the 165's
749 uses a 3 Bar Map and only a few wires are moved from the 730 setup.
For anyone doing this conversion.. Since the 165 only has 2 plugs going into the ECM, I would label each wire with tape on every wire before removing them from the plug. The 730 uses 3 plugs and all the wires from the 2 plug system have to be transferred.. The only difference on the 749 was IACV , the TCC, ALDL and a couple of other wires.. I don't remember which ones.. If I wasn't in Afghanistan, I would upload my entire book that I used for the full conversion.
If you aren't planning on boosting your engine with a turbo or super charging it, it isn't worth the swap to do the 749.. That is what the cyclone, typoon and the Grand National and turbo Sunbird cars used.. You can still use the 730 with a boosted application.. You can use the AUJP on either ECM. If you use a boosted application I would definately use the $59 from code59.net.. Remember that you will have to use C.A.T.S. or tunerpro and shut off the VATS in the programming, and then have fun with the tuning.. You engine is almost guarenteed to run like crap until you tune it.
09-08-2014, 11:38 AM
#45
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Re: 1227302 to 1227165/730/749 swap
this seems interested if i could open some attachments 
Im looking in electrical with my car right now 
Im looking in electrical with my car right now 
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