malcom2073

Alright, so I've done a lot of searching and reading through these forums, looking for a possible bolt-on crank sensor for my 87 SBC 383. I'm not really concerned with the number of teeth, anything from 16-58 would be alright. Missing tooth is not required since one can be cut out.

Some method of CAM sync would be really awesome too, but if all else fails after I convert to DIS I can get one of those cam sync distributor plug-in replacements.

I've seen that Vortec parts may possibly fit, and I've also read that LT1 timing cover/toothed wheel may be a possibility? But every discussion I've seen on this, has ended with "Oh, we can't get our ECU to support this without going to a LT1 ecu" and has either digressed into a discussion about ECU swapping, or other modifications required to run like that. The ECU is a non issue, since I'm using an aftermarket ECU that can run pretty much any toothed wheel combination.

So... is there a know working configuration with other stock parts that I can salvage from a junkyard, or might I be stuck paying $160 for the holley crank sensor kit, and $300 for a cam sync distributor?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You may want to peruse eficonnection.com

They sell systems for Gen 1 sbc's to work with LS1 electronics. They also sell a lot of individual parts. They already solved this problem and they sell a lot of the parts to tackle it, so you may want to look it over. You may find some inspiration or you may find something you want to order.

malcom2073

It's significantly cheaper to get the summit crank sensor, and summit cam-sync distributor than to buy their kit, but even that is around $500-$600. I'm trying to find an even cheaper solution than that, since I'm on a bit of a budget. I figured if anyone had figured out the question so often asked here about fitment of other stock parts, that would be great.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You dont have to get their kit. Most of their kit is based on production parts. There's a thread on here where they were trying to figure out how to make it work and trying different things. Maybe do a search for it?

malcom2073

Ah, I was waiting for the first "".

Problem with eficonnection, their parts are exorbitantly expensive and carry with them the disadvantage of forcing me to buy coils and go distributorless ($$$). The summit option lets me continue using my distributor, but I was trying to get the price tag for this upgrade below 25% of the car's value.

As I said I found a few topics maybe 3-4 about this(Not sure how I would've done this without searching... maybe I didn't search hard enough? I figured 4 hours on the forums trying different search terms and reading through 20 page topics would've been enough to justify a post asking my question. If I'm wrong, let me know :-P). The only semi-workable solution I've found so far in any of them was to either shell out a grand for their parts + coils, or get Vortec parts, and have to cut/weld my fuel rails, an modify my harmonic balancer so things will fit.

If that's the only solution, so be it I'll just save up and buy the stuff from summit early next year... but I was hoping that someone actually had some experience with trying different stock parts. I guess I was just looking for confirmation that there were no other options out there. None of them are as of yet very appealing to the wallet.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Edit: You know what... nevermind. Good luck.

malcom2073

Thanks!

I'll make it a point to post here with whichever option I wind up going with, hopefully help some searchers in the future looking to do anything similar. It's looking more and more like this is a "pay to play" kinda thing.

I had a thought though, if I get the $180 summit crank sensor+wheel kit, get a Vortec distributor from the junkyard and cut off the cap so it fits, (probably just grind off the plug wire connectors and seal them off to keep dust/dirt/water out), I can get some DIS ignitors from the junkyard and run that way. That'll allow me to run sequential injection, proper spark, and all at probably less than the $250 price point.

At another option, if I take my current distributor, and chop off all but 1 of the teeth on the reluctor wheel and all but 1 on the pickup, would the ignition module still be able to pick that up, or would it be too weak? Then the only thing I need is the crank wheel because I'd still be able to run distributor based ignition.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Look into a Northstar DIS set up. All that is required is the wheel and two crank sensors. The cam sensor is only required for sequential fuel injection, not the spark.

Will need to get a N* crank and cut the wheel out of it. Or fab one up. Then mount it to the back of the balancer.

RBob.

malcom2073

Right, and my intention is to eventually do sequential injection. Wasted spark would be fine for now. I may look into the northstar thing, will the crank sensor mount bolt right up to the SBC, or would I have to get someone to fabricate a bracket?

malcom2073

Did some more research, and I think I've found the best two solutions:

First option is modifying my distributor to have a hall effect wheel within, which while cheap, I'm not that confident that I can actually get that done properly. This would allow me to run the engine sequential without any other modifications.

Second option, to do it proper, would be to buy a $150 Holley DIS 60-2 crank sensor kit, a $30 LT1 distributor from the junkyard, with cap removed and sealed to give my cam sync, then a $150 set of LS2 coil packs. So $330 for the entire getup, giving me CNP (coil NEAR plug, since COP is not possible), and sequential injection.

I may get a spare distributor, just for playing around and see if I can get a sensor securely mounted. If not, I'll go for the $330 option and call it done.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Would need to fab a bracket for the crank sensors. On the N* the sensors mount into the block.

RBob.

malcom2073

Thanks RBob, maybe I'll do some more research into the northstar option for next time, but you really can't beat the ability to bolt things on without any fabrication skills required.

As it turns out, the Vortec crank sensor/crank wheel will fit a SBC, as long as you machine some thickness off the backend of the harmonic balancer (Or apparently the fluidtech ones work out of the box? Suppose they're not as deep?), and run a single width timing chain. So between that and the $150 summit special, I think I'm set for crank position options. Sweet!

I'm fairly certain I put the dual width timing chain in mine, it's been a few years though so I'd have to check. Probably $40 in parts from the u-pull-it yard for that option... so at least things are finally starting to make sense, and come together.

Shame this information isn't all in one place, but I suppose most people either pay $680+ for the eficonnection kit and coils, or just plain don't do it. Fortunatly there is enough information spread around on this forum to do it significantly cheaper. All that's left now, is to choose an option, save up the money, and go sequential injection!

cschaffner

Or...you could just use a vortec balancer ;]

malcom2073

Indeed, didn't even think of that!

cschaffner

Yupp! the Vortec option would be the cheapest.. It'd give you a 4x crank signal, and all you need is the timing cover, relucter wheel, the pickup, and a balancer. Which all can be found at a junkyard, or online used, for pretty darn cheap!

FYI: the vortec blocks are.. ever so slightly different up front. so, if you choose to go that route.. use a good bit of rtv to seal the timing cover.. Don't want oil leaks!
but other than that, its a direct bolt on.



Oh, and if you do decide to use the Northstar ign system..PM me, I have a complete coil pack and ign module off of one.

vwdave

MSD-2345 Distributor is a Cam-sync setup. Im running full sequential with my XFI 2.0 on my 358. Approx $4-500.

malcom2073

Yeah I had found that was was initially going to go that route, but for that price I can go coil-near-plug in addition to full sequential, so tbh no reason to pay that much for a dist.

EagleMark

Accell has a duel sync distributor around $300. Cam and crank...

http://accel-ignition.com/ignition-e...small-cap.html

malcom2073

Is that just single pulse at TDC of cam and crank, or is it cam sync with 4x output for crank like stock? If the latter it would work, but otherwise I'd still need a crank wheel, so no reason to get that over vortec if that's the case.

EagleMark

I don't know? Just saw it and threw it out there...

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

It's cam sync and 4x crank.

88Trans-am

agreed with the dual sync dizzy... ive got am old classic fast syatem from a buddy, emailed a guy from fast and tole me that a duel sync dizzy is my best option, with the fast main harness, amd tpi fuel injector harness( which i might be able to use from the harness from the ford one that came with it). but dual sync is ur cheapest option i would think, no need to worry about pullibg the timing cover off amd having to fit in a crank trigger....... im still looking into my sequential setup so let us know how it works out for you

malcom2073

The dual sync dizzy is the easiest option by far, every one of these options gets my sequential fuel injection on my SBC, but some of them get me coilpacks. I figure I might as well break them down for other people to see what's I believe is actually possible.

Word of warning, I've performed none of these modifications, I'm simply going by what information I've found on the forums... if I'm wrong about any of these I apologize, and by all means correct me.


$??? (in the 100-150 range depending on junkyard, but fabrication required)
Northstar crank trigger + sensors
Vortec dizzy + blanking cap

Bolt-on options (This is the real feature I'm going for, and what I did the research for no fab required):

$220:
$70 - Vortec dizzy(junkyard) + blanking cap
$50 - Vortec timing cover + crank sensor + single roller timing chain + lots of RTV to seal it, (all from junkyard)
$100 - LS2 coilpacks (from junkyard)

$300:
Dual sync dizzy. NO coilpacks!

$330:
$70 - Vortec dizzy(from junkyard) + blanking cap
$160 - Summit crank trigger
$100 - LS2 coilpacks (from junkyard)

$390
$130 - Proper single sync dizzy
$160 - Summit Crank Trigger
$100 - LS1 Coil packs (brand new from ebay, lower quality than the LS2 ones)


I'm probably going to go with the $330 options. I have a dual roller timing chain so I'd have to replace that with a single to go with the Vortec timing cover option. While it would be by far the cheapest option, I'm damn tired of having leaky timing covers (Old SBC engines), and have no faith in my ability to seal it

I expect I'll be able to purchase the parts probably February or March time frame, gotta save up the money for it.

88Trans-am

thanks for that info on the different options...may be something i look into as well....... question for you.... what harmonic balancer are you going to use to set the timing reference? i know the factory balancer which i have has just one notch to indicate on the timing tab(which only goes to 12 degrees)... from what i have read.... you need to set reference timing around 40-50 btdc.... is there another way to do this without the labeled balancer? i dont know about you guys... but timing is my one weakness for fuel injection.
tha js

malcom2073

My current setup (Dist + batch fire injectors) is set up for 8 degrees, which is perfectly acceptable for my application even once I go CNP/Sequential. If the fuel injection system you're using needs 40-50btdc, you could always make your own mark on the balancer. Take the balancer off the car, measure 40 degrees back, and etch in a mark with a scribe. I doubt that little amount of metal shaved off would make a big difference in the balance of the thing.

Bill Chase

Interesting, I tried searching for the specific threads you speak of and couldn't find any. Anyone have it bookmarked?

Buccaneer

Not to sound like an ***hole, but you do realize that this is almost a decade ago thread, right? 2012.

Bill Chase

Yes, aware. Seems some of the responders I'm this thread are still active. But more importantly was hoping someone could point me to the old threads where the efi connection guys were discussing, prototyping and developing their various kits with feedback from people here.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What specifically are you looking for ?

Some of the EFI connection stuff is nice. they sell different reluctor wheels that fit in LT1 and Vortec timing covers.

I ran wasted spark for years on my thirdgen, but I was using a Ford EDIS-8 ignition box and coils with a 36 tooth trigger I fabricated (welded to the back of a L98 serpentine crank pulley).

-- Joe

Bill Chase

Really wanting to know how accurate the l31 vortec stock crank reluctor is if used with a hall effect sensor and stock vortec timing cover.

I've got access to a lathe and Bridgeport, and a 30 year man to cut down an old distributor and make it work for a cam sync sitting damn near flush with the intake. It's for a project in the works. 88 S10 with 91 c4 l98 engine. It's just hard to swallow the prices efi connection charges, not saying they are unreasonable. Just want to explore what can be done with modified oem parts and some elbow grease.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The stock crank reluctor and timing cover / sensor combo is perfect. Gives an 8x (over two full revolutions) signal and by itself can be used for wasted spark.

You could modify an L31 distributor as well (1x) to give you your cam sync, then you can run full CNP ignition. As you suggested, cut it down and make a cap for it to make it look nice and clean. (I think that is what EFI connection does).

There are some benefits to full CNP/DIS and sequential injection. Sequential injection is a bigger benefit IMO.

-- Joe

vasquezmrysvll

iTrader: (5)

Bringing this one back to the top…… can someone tell me, will a dual sync play nice with a 0411 pcm? I’m needing one for 1x cam output. I need a conventional style distributor cap due to clearance issues between my HSR and the L31 vortec distributor. Thanks.

Bill Chase

You need to know exactly what the signal output of the dual sync is, and exactly what the 411 is expecting to ascertain if they are comparable.

I can tell you the l31 vortex 350 used a 4x crank trigger that generates 1 pulse per firing event, weather it was triggered on the rising or falling edge I cannot say. The vortec distributor produces a 1x cam signal, weather triggered rising, or falling I do not know. I assume that both used a hall effect sensor, if that's the case you may be in luck, the Holley EFI dual sync produces the same signal.. the thing you need to know is if the voltages are the same etc etc. The 2001 express van had the 411 ecu, just mimic that. Or contact efi connection and buy their kits.. they have most of this sorted out using OEM components. May seem pricey, but for basically a guaranteed plug and play result that allows coil near plug for less than a grand, and uses mostly OEM parts it's tough to beat, extremely reliable, and parts available everywhere. Example if my Holley dual sync distributor goes down I am looking at a minimum of 48 hours before I can get a part in my hands, and that's if it's in stock, if it happens during the week where I can actually order it. My advice is call efi connection and if using the 411 ecu follow their advice.