antman89iroc

I do appreciate every bit of input. Yes I do over think things just ask my wife. But for me it is part of the fun. Not In an anxiety sort of way but just wanting to better understand how things work and why. To a point at least. There's always more to it as each discipline is a science unto itself.
KISS right? Interesting how as I learn more about coils and what should most likely work best the stock or designed for my application aftermarket coils look like the best choice. Coincidence? Lol.
And you're right my understanding about why it works is less important than how the engine runs and if it's reliable. Thanks again to all.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm going to email Matt Cramer and get his take on it. I'm starting to second guess if my combo has the right coil again. Might be one of those situations where you don't realize you had a problem until you correct it.

-- Joe

antman89iroc

Sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest for ya lol.

Seriously, I'd like to know what you find out. From what little I've learned it does seem that a coil can be selected to optimize a certain RPM range or situation. Two different coils, both will work reliably but one may have a longer duration which could help at low RPM but then not saturate adequately at high RPM. Or charge fast enough at high RPM but be weak at low RPM.

Which brings up a gray area for me, what is high RPM? And how much time (dwell angle or ms) is enough?

It seems like the classic sbc distributor could use a fat inductive ignition on the low end and a hot CD on the top end. Or wait, we could use an inductive coil on EACH CYLINDER and have the best of both worlds. Someone should have thought of that by now...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Nah you didn't stir anything up. Sometimes people forget this isn't yellowbullet, and when you question something they would rather go on full attack mode rather than thinking the problem through.

So I had a conversation with Matt.

Basically he said the 8-pin HEI module almost always burns out before the coil does. Stock HEI modules are typically limited to 5A, and aftermarket modules can go up to 8A. I did some google searching and that appears to be the case. I'm running an aftermarket module in a billet dizzy, but the amperage spec wasn't listed. (go figure!)

I was not understanding the purpose of the calculator. The calculator is not meant for you to know what the "amperage" is of your coil, but rather to get an idea of how long it takes to the target amperage of your module.

So assuming I'm running a stock HEI module which is current limited to 5A (I think RBob said 5.6 but lets not split hairs). My coil is .450 ohm and 6.6 mh, so it will take 3.05 msec to charge to 5A.

Too much dwell at low RPM is what will burn the module out, for example if
I set my dwell to 3.5 msec it will draw a little over 6 amps.

Too much dwell at higher RPM isn't possible since the window of time between firing events is shorter, so if the coil's saturation rate is too low we will simply get a weak spark at higher RPM because the coil has not fully charged.

Here is what I took away from this: Find a coil with a low enough resistance (under .400 ohm) so that it will take a full charge at 2.5 msec. This will satisfy your upper RPM, and you will have a target dwell low enough to not risk burning out the module at lower RPM.

Increasing module amperage will increase safety at lower RPM if you're dwell time is longer, but won't help you in upper RPM.


Does this make sense?


So now I'm going to open tunerstudio, and I'm going to change my dwell from 2.5msec to 3.0, because while I won't get the benefit of a full spark at upper RPM (I have the wrong coil!!), I might as well get the full benefit at lower RPM/idle until I replace it with a proper coil.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Antman, always ask to see a 1/4 mile break down to see where controlled dwell compared to no control is this much of a benefit; meaning the rate of acceleration from 60' to 660' to 1000' to 1320'. In theory, it all sounds wonderful, but in the real world, again, the track has the final say as to what is factual... and what is delusional.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Only if you are comparing MPH.

Science is fact.

Plus, two many variables exist to simplify it that much. I'd be more interested in seeing how it impacts combustion temperature and then deciding if the tune can be altered.


I should really just go LS and CNP. It's 2015...

-- Joe

antman89iroc

No doubt. I was just mentioning in a different thread how COP (CNP) gives the best of both worlds as far as ignition. The ECM swap takes care of it and provides other advantages even for a SBC.

Now we can get into the SBC vs LS if ya really wanna...

Edit: CNP I guess is what the LS has. COP is coil on plug? I was interchanging them but that is incorrect. Regardless, they both run one coil per cylinder and that is what's important from a "what's the best coil for an 8 cylinder engine" perspective. Now, if we could just talk Bob into adding it to the EBL Flash system it would save a lot of headache for me.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'd think you could at least do a wasted spark with an EBL ?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...is-gm-ecm.html

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Well, DynamicEFI's SFI-6 was given alky control a long time ago, and just recently introduced CnP using LSX coil packs, and the system works incredibly. EBL-P4 was just given alky control not too long ago, so, well, let's just see what follows next...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You can do EDIS with a EBL or EBL-P4 though, right?

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Where is the benefit adapting a Ford ignition system? Do you mean, say, a DIS from the $8F code? I'm sure Bob Rauscher can write the code for that in another XDF in his sleep if he hasn't already, but there is no real need for it, because a) SFI-6 supercedes $8F, and B) Nobody is asking him to, only you...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... not to mention, aside from a new XDF incorporating this, converting a distributor into a cam sensor is pretty simple to do, hmm.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No EDIS. Lots of guys with SBC's use EDIS ignitions.

It's better than a distributor, while not quite as good as CNP.

I realize a SFI-6 exists which I'm sure is great for v6 guys.

Since many customers already have an EBL or EBL-P4, I was curious if the EBL could drive an EDIS or Nstar type ignition? I'm fairly certain an EBL or EBL-P4 cannot drive CNP on any application ?


If not, can any of the EBL products to CNP and sefi on a v8? Like, if antman decides to go LSx next season ?


I wouldn't be to quick to judge what people are and are not asking for.

-- Joe

antman89iroc

This is very interesting.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I have a funny feeling I'm either not getting an answer, or told I don't need it.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I can tell you that I plan on running DIS this year with the EBL-P4, albeit batch fire because a cam sensor really isn't needed for my application. Wanting to run sequential requires a cam sensor, and this is where converting the distributor to a cam sensor comes into play (similar to the Grand National boys), but again, I am not going that route with my application and I'm sticking with batch fire for the time being. If you'd like I will start a thread documenting my ignition conversion, because as of now my collaboration with Bob is between the two of us mainly because threads get out of hand, and despite Joe thinking we're all "family" here at TGO, that is definitely not the case at times. Even now he has to be a wise guy, forgetting that people have work and errands to run, and can't respond as fast as he would like...

- Rob

antman89iroc

I don't care if you gotta go to the bat cave and hang out with rain-man, if you guys figure out how to add CNP to the EBL flash (or even if I had to swap to P4) I would be first in line to be a guanine pig. I think batch fire and a converted dist for the sensor would be fine. If we could use an easy to add reluctor at the crank it would take the timing chain and dist gears out of the picture, but the dist would be easier.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't see the EBL or P4 having enough outputs for CNP, but I think EDIS is very possible.

To do CNP on a EBl or P4 you would need a special ignition adapter, kind of like the one he has for the SFI-6 (but it only drives 3 coils for a v6).

Although that isn't even really CNP, it's wasted spark, so you might as well just use an EDIS like everyone else.

Functionally, "CNP" on an EBL (at least according to the wiring diagrams provided) is identical to EDIS.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

For my application I am keeping it simple though, V8 DIS, related hardware and sensors, but no cam sensor. I already have a spare "dummy" or "tree stump" distributor that will be used to keep the distributor shaft hole from leaking oil. The hardest part from what I can see is finding a location for the ignition module bracket. I thought about locating it on the firewall directly behind the engine, but I wanted it to essentially move with the engine under load, so I am still determining where. About the CnP, RBob is way way way ahead of the game. Did you read about the SFI-6 Interface board yet? Definitely take the time and go to the DynamicEFI.com website and read about it, and when you see what was done for the stock Grand National ignition module, you'll soon realize that once a V8 DIS ignition module is adapted to the EBL/EBL-P4 side of the spectrum, then CnP will literally feel like it is right around the corner after reading about the Interface. It really is a work of art...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

But it doesn't really do CNP. His adapter board is a wasted-spark controller, just like a EDIS module. It has 3 coil drivers.

There is nothing "Ahead of the game". Both factory and aftermarket support for EDIS and CNP/COP have been around for well over a decade. The EBL clone of EDIS is relatively new, and only supports a V6.

Nstar DIS is also wasted spark, just GM's crazy way of doing the same thing.

Quadspark is an aftermarket alternative, again, wasted spark, and will drive 4 coils per module.


The only way to do REAL CNP or COP that is not wasted spark is to use an ECM that has 8 coil drivers:

http://www.diyautotune.com/downloads...g_diagrams.pdf


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, RBob is definitely way ahead of the game is all areas, but when I said that above I was using it and refering to it in the context towards another EBL user, meaning for the user not having to reinvent the wheel by using "what if", and that it is being considered, worked on, and maybe even tested as we speak. Nothing gets released without proper testing. You are not the only one who knows about Megasquirt, Joe. I have known about it since its' inception, there are threads dedicated to it on the other boards that I frequent, discussions, criticism, etc. I am glad that you have chosen to go that route, and hopefully that route works well for you, but you don't know what you are saying regarding the EBL/SFI-6 system, and trying to dissect it is more flattery on your part than it is criticism. The V8 DIS system that I will be using is in fact a "true" wasted spark system, not so much because it throws a spark to the opposing cylinder on the exhaust stroke, but because of the two cylinder per coil system, and maintaining the long spark plug wires. I am choosing this for my individual application. Do you in fact know the differences between DIS, COP and CnP igniton systems? The SFI-6 system uses six LSX coils mounted on the valve covers directly above each spark plug, with short plug wires. Wasted spark, as you are trying to point out, fires a spark on the exhaust stroke "wasting" about 2-3kV, which is nothing. Even your fellow MS users know this, and they know that the same opposing coil is then fully energized and ready to go for its' coming compression stroke...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I still just don't understand your statement of "ahead of the game" but whatever.

I wish RBob would answer the question, can the OP use EDIS or a CNP ignition adapter (like Quadspark) with his EBL.

Actually I do. I spoke to RBob 3 years ago in depth about the EBL, and I've read all of the documentation on his website.

Regarding what I said about the SFI-6, it is 100% correct. His Buick adapter board for CNP is a wasted spark system, just like EDIS, Just like Quadspark, and just like Northstar.

Take a look at the diagram:

http://www.dynamicefi.com/CnP_Interf..._Wiring_01.jpg

Notice it has (3) coil drivers for (6) cylinders.


My day job is Director of R&D for a large Networking/Security company. An engineer by trade, I've been coding and developing security products (commercially) since the 1990s. Software that analyzes over 1 million packets per second and makes identification and detection at wire speed. I think I'm qualified to dissect a simple 80's EFI system.

RBob does well because he has the patience and the experience to code this stiff in Assembler, something that he's forced to do because nobody has the original GM source code. After twenty years or whatever of disassembling, commenting, and modifying GM code I have no doubt in my mind he's the best at it. But there is limitations. I don't understand why an electronics genius such as himself has not built his OWN ECM at this point, and has not coded his own operating system in C. Surely a man of his experience understands the functional and logical operations of the GM code well enough at this point that he should be able to clone them in C. By designing a new ECM he would have unlimited CPU, memory, and I/O.



Yes I know the difference silly pants. I pointed that out a number of posts up. My ECM will also only do wasted spark on a V8 because I only have 2 (or four) coil drivers. I'm not knocking wasted spark, I'm asking and have been asking for two days now if the OP can do it with his EBL. I've yet to get an actual answer.

Please point me to an official Dynamic EFI how-to on doing EDIS, CNP, COP, or any wasted spark with the EBL or EBL-P4. We allready know about the SFI-6, and the OP does not have a 6 cylinder engine.


Just for the record, and to clear things up for the OP:

FORD EDIS wasted spark
GM DIS is wasted spark
GM Northstar is wasted spark

GM CNP is NOT supposed to be wasted spark.
COP is NOT supposed to be wasted spark.


EDIS, DIS, and Northstar can all be dual/quad coil, or use CNP coils. That doesn't suddenly make them a real CNP system. They are still wasted spark. They can also use COP coils. Same rules apply.

CNP coils can be purchased with or without built in ICM/Ignitors.

COP coils typically ALWAYS have built in ICM/Ignitors and are "logic level" only.


Again, why don't you actually help the OP and point him to the documentation for running a multi-coil wasted spark system on the ECM he already owns. ?


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, you are not listening, you are ranting, and you are throwing things in as well as linking irrelevant things in as part of your rant. The SFI-6, as already pointed out, in not "wasted spark", it is a true LC2 CnP system. It does not "waste" spark, and its' spark is not being shared, and all coils fire in a direct and forward path. That is it, done, end of story, see the picture of Chris' LC2 below utilizing it. Now, what this has to do with EBL users is as follows, and I will use my build as an example. I am converting over to a V8 DIS system, which is essentially the same type of "wasted spark" system that the LC2 comes with from the factory, minus the cam sensor because I am electing to stay batch fire, and with two more cylinders. Again, a V8 version of the LC2's ignition system but without the cam sensor signal for sequential fire, and two extra cylinders. That being said, it is more than possible, rather, more than feasible, in so much because it was already developed for the DIS LC2 users... for Dynamic EFI to create the same type of Ignition Module Interface to be used for the V8 DIS system. You keep asking, or rather implying where it is, and I am telling you that nothing gets released without proper development and testing. My V8 DIS ignition swap will be started and functioning rather quickly once the cold weather subsides, and after showing the ease of conversion, more EBL users will more than likely go this route, and maybe even explore a cam sensor option and then it is up to Bob to consider creating a V8 Interface for CnP...

Why is this so hard to grasp without throwing DIY links at me?

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

@StreetLethal
I am enjoying this conversation, because I, too, would be interested in CNP with EBL.
However, I have to disagree with you that other Joe IS listening and YOU are ranting...

The DynamicEFI SFI-6 IS A WASTE SPARK IGNITION. Every coil gets fired on every crank rotation. The coils are driven in pairs. With only 3 coil drivers, you CANNOT drive the coils individually. Just because there is one coil per cylinder, and that coil is close to the plug, while that is the definition of "CNP", does not mean it is not also a "waste spark" system.

Since the coils are driven in pairs, there are ALWAYS two coils/spark plugs sparking at the same time... one to start combustion, and the other during exhaust... which is the definition of a waste-spark system.

Here you are correct. Since each cylinder has its own coil, the spark is not shared. Each cylinder gets its own full ignition spark.

Read this comment. Picking nits, the SFI-6 DOES do CoilNearPlug, but Joe is right that it is ALSO wasted-spark.
Splitting hairs over "is the SFI-6 a true CNP system", versus "the SFI-6 provides CNP in a wasted-spark operation" is taking this thread into the weeds.

Can we move the discussion forward to: How can, or is, RBob going to make an SFI-8 to work with EBL? Is there really any benefit to it? Would is be any different from, or utilize off-the-shelf parts of GM DIS or Ford EDIS? etc.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

MoJoe, I can appreciate you wanting to intervene on behalf of Joe, but the fact remains that this is an EBL specific thread, it says so in the title, and is directed towards EBL users specifically being that only they have experience with aftermarket coils and EBL, as well as the EBL firmware author himself. Joe is not an EBL user, and thus had no experience with what the EBL system can handle, and yes, he is ranting, because this is not a Megasquirt thread, and he cannot speak for the EBL system because he does not run it. The questions from the original poster have already been answered by the EBL firmware author, so kindly forgive me ahead of time for disagreeing with the fact that Joe is the one most certainly ranting, not to mention beating a dead horse. RBob has since been done with this thread, Antman is done with this thread, and now I am done with this thread. RBob has since not responded because he already answered the questions that were presented, so why does Joe go on with this thread? Is that not ranting? So I must disagree with you there. As for SFI-6 being "wasted spark", it is NOT a waste spark system, and perhaps RBob will come back to further illustrate this for you...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yes it is. It has 3 coil drivers. Read RBob's diagram.

Don't blame me because you can't understand how this works. Send him a PM, ask him to explain it for you.

So let me try an analogy that you might be able to grasp. TPI has 8 injectors right. Does that mean it's sequential and not batch fire? I mean, we see eight injectors in the picture don't we?

Well fine, but don't say he is "Ahead of the game" When he appears to be the last to adopt a feature


It's not hard to grasp. I put links up for you to read to help educate you. I even put a link to Dynamic EFI's own literature. I can't do anymore if you can't understand it.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hahaha.. I tell ya what buddy, why don't you PM RBob and ask him to explain why it's not a wasted spark, in this thread.

And then, ask him how to do CNP on a v8 with an EBL like antman asked a number of posts ago.


-- Joe

antman89iroc

Ok guys, I appreciate your input, expertise and passion. All of you are far ahead of me in all respects and make some excellent points. I did get my original question answered and we have expanded it to running a distributorless ignition with the EBL. I feel these are very relevant discussions but would understand if we need to start a new thread. I don't do any programming or work with computer systems in my day life. So true innovations are not going to come from me. But I am fairly capable in mechanical and electrical hook up and modifications. Adding a reluctor, wiring an ignition module, modifying a distributor to be a sensor or only a pump drive would be within my rhelm.

Having said all that I am dependent on you or someone like Bob to really develop the computer interface but I could be a beta test for the type of users who may be interested in such a project. And the only reasons for developing such a system are for the fun of doing it or profit. If only me and a couple of other users would be interested then it's difficult to justify financially. I'd be willing to give feedback and help however I could.

The original "fundamental" purpose of this thread, is to improve/optimize the spark delivered to the cylinder through the RPM range {up to about 6500) when using the EBL.
The inductive ignition delivers a great "type" of spark in that it is moderate voltage and long in duration, it is a simple and reliable. The only problem (from the coil perspective) is dwell time at higher RPM. Even adding 1 coil (2 total) easily satisfies the dwell issue so true CNP or wasted spark is ok by me.
The other benefit is eliminating the distributor. It inherently has some issues and we can all agree on the advantages of multiple coils and getting rid of the mechanical switching device. Modern powertrain design shows how when the technology became available the mechanical distributor was one of the first systems eliminated after the carburetor.

Since I have no real idea of what is involved in controlling CNP/wasted spark from the ECM's perspective I don't know whether using EBL to interface/control a multiple coil ignition is practical or even possible. It may make better sense to use an ECM (like LS) rather than adapting. Would in the end it be a significant improvement? I don't know but I find it interesting. If there is a way to improve the way spark is delivered to the cylinder I would give it a try.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah, but I'm not aware of any vehicle that got the GM CNP designation that was wasted spark. Perhaps it is splitting hairs.


None of the EBL ecm's currently have enough ignition outputs to run 8 coils independently, so the only way he'd pull it off is to build an ignition module/box which essentially would be the same as an EDIS, GM DIS, Northstar, etc.

I think it was what, Friday I asked "Can an EBL work with an EDIS?" And Rob came back like it was a crazy question, use the SFI-6. And again, what about a v8 ??



-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's more than possible, but I need to get my car ready for the upcoming racing season in the next two weeks, Buick V8 guys do it all the time. I would show you by converting my distributor to a cam sensor, but I am staying with batch fire, I can get the installation and tuning done in a few hours this way, as I don't want the car sitting waiting to get done after that, as regular work for me is far too demanding, and I need the car to run yesterday because March is already here, and e-town will be opening very soon, and I want to enjoy my project this year, not keep it as an ongoing project...

A V8 DIS system can be considered a very big upgrade over the stock HEI distributor system, and there are plenty of shops out there that sell 24x reluctor wheels for the SBC by themselves, so that, along with the DIS Ignition Module and crank sensors and your good to go. I will start a thread shortly if your interested in doing this. I know where it is going after that, but I don't speak for RBob, and that is why I continue to say it's up to him if he will offer it as a direct package. But again, he's been there and done that, so it's not a matter of if it can be done, he did it already...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's a lot like members clamoring for a boosted $8D code once upon a time. You'll have discussions of "can it be done", "what's involved with it", "where do I start", "how is it possible", "can I incorporate $8F code into it", "can I also incorporate $8F DIS since it only needs crank trigger input", and on and on and on. Suddenly, a user purchases an EBL system, and at their very first glance of the XDF's that RBob wrote and supplied with the system, they immediately realize, it's all already there, all written and waiting to be controlled. Just gotta get the hardware needed to make it happen, whether turbo or DIS...

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

The first move away from mechanical, high voltage distributors to solid state electronics was waste spark, share-a-coil arrangements. I would not be surprised if the cost of extra coils was initially a deterrent to waste-spark and especially individual coil/CNP!
Since the wasted-spark systems shared a coil for two cylinders, which were not adjacent,you still have long wires, hence no CNP. But, this was the first step to solid state.
Then computers got more advanced, and they designed for individual coils, therefore were able to go to full "true" CNP... Control charge time, and not have high RPM limiting the time available therefore requiring more current, and burning up ICMs, etc.

Exactly. The 730 based ECM has a single ignition circuit, and is dependent on the distributor for (high voltage) distribution to each cylinder. This branch of the thread comes down to the point of DIS/EDIS... solid state distribution of the ignition signal.
As Antman says, we have other skills. Designing and fabbing a DIS is not one of them. However, we can talk a good game, and understand concept and some of the details of what would go into it.

Maybe RBob is working on something and doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag, or have people pestering him on a product that might never become viable.

-- The Other Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The reason for that was because $8D was considered a superior code base. It ran on a fast ECM (730, 727).

There is no question that the EBL code, regardless of what it was based on, is far superior to $8D in regards to functionality.

Again, for the average guy I typically recommend an EBL. I wouldn't in a million years recommend the OP replace his EBL. Your position that I think everyone should run a Megasquirt is wrong.

When I stopped using stock stuff I reached out to RBob and I really grilled him regarding how the EBL worked, and I would have bought one if I felt it was the best system for ME. I don't work for MS, or get money from them. I just like the system because it can do anything I want it to do, and when it can't the source is very easy to understand C language. That is obviously not for you, or the OP.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Maybe. Frankly, I don't know what RBob's goals are. All I know is when I search I cannot find any EBL user who is running CNP.

Perhaps when Street Lethal is done he will write a "how to CNP your EBL on a v8" document that will get uploaded to Dynanic EFI's website.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This thread has run it's course...

RBob.