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DFI and ECMDiscuss all aspects of DFI (Digital Fuel Injection), ECMs (Electronic Control Module), scanners, and diagnostic equipment. Fine tune your Third Gen computer system for top performance.
I already made a V8 cam sensor using a SBC distributor, I just didn't get a chance to post anything yet on that thread I started, but that is the reason why I stopped with the Northstar crank trigger because it is no longer needed. Two revolutions is a piece of cake, I kinda hinted to what I was doing above...
You made a 8/2 crank sensor using a distributor?
I'm sure it will work. The problem is the ECM has to calculate all of the timing in between pole strikes. This is why 36 and 60 tooth wheels are more reliable.
I mean, the object is for your DIS to be better than the dizzy right? Or just be cool and have coil packs? haha
Joe- I'm in the midst of using my MS3 extra to convert my ignition system to a distributor-less ignition using wasted spark and individual D585 LS style ignition coils. I'm making some mock ups of a crank sensor mount now, do you have any pictures of your mount with better lighting? I'm using DIYautotune's sensor but I'm not happy with the length of it and how delicate they say the leads are where they connect to the sensor. What vehicle is your crank sensor from?
Did the toothed wheel suffer any warpage after welding it to the pulley? Looks to be about 1/8" thick like mine. I'm considering buying an old set of steel pulleys, welding on the wheel and then having a local Vegas place chrome plate it.
Did the toothed wheel suffer any warpage after welding it to the pulley? Looks to be about 1/8" thick like mine. I'm considering buying an old set of steel pulleys, welding on the wheel and then having a local Vegas place chrome plate it.
I don't have any other pictures of the crank trigger. The car is in the trailer right now until spring.
I'm using a mid/late 90s mustang sensor.
The wheel did not warp when welding. I welded like an inch at a time, moved 180 degrees, and so on over and over again for that exact reason. Looks boogery but I didn't want one area getting too hot. But, with that said, it's a magnetic trigger. Warpage shouldn't matter. The sensor is like 1/2" wide so as long as the gap is within specs it shouldn't matter if the teeth move around as long as they are within the sensors bite.
Been running the car a lot. Ignition is very reliable. I'm very happy with the way it worked out. EDIS is definitely cool.
I may at one point in the future swap to LS2 coils (I have some mounted on valve covers) but visually I dig the coils-on-firewall look. I could in theory get rid of the EDIS module and read the trigger directly, but the only real benefit would be the ability to do a spark-cut rev limiter and it would take up additional I/O on my ECU.
Tibo, how do you like the MS3 ? I want to add a few additional inputs for data logging and I'm going to run out of I/O eventually on my MS2.
Been running the car a lot. Ignition is very reliable. I'm very happy with the way it worked out. EDIS is definitely cool.
I may at one point in the future swap to LS2 coils (I have some mounted on valve covers) but visually I dig the coils-on-firewall look. I could in theory get rid of the EDIS module and read the trigger directly, but the only real benefit would be the ability to do a spark-cut rev limiter and it would take up additional I/O on my ECU.
Tibo, how do you like the MS3 ? I want to add a few additional inputs for data logging and I'm going to run out of I/O eventually on my MS2.
-- Joe
I really enjoy it! I made the switch to the LS2 style individual ignition coils using a wasted spark scheme and it has run great so far. I was surprised that my idle actually did become more stable. I've been forever used to the tach needle bouncing around at least 50 RPM and this is dead steady. I actually thought the tach needle was stuck the first time I started it up! I also love how much simpler the ignition control is with wasted spark and individual coils. I no longer have to worry about a cracked cap, carbon buildup on the rotor or terminals, bad pickup sensor, overheating or a dying Ignition Control Module, retiming the engine if the distributor is pulled or moved or verifying that the ECM and Distributor timied together, spark drift from all the natural slack between all of the mechanical components or buying expensive coils that can completely charge above 3,000 RPM. I kick myself that I didn't do this years ago. I thought about using some of the inputs for more sensors but I've become interested in traction control so I think I will just switch to MS3 Pro in the future and add them in when I have to install a new harness anyway. Maybe I'll get to that project in a year from now. If you're still interested in MS3 at that time I'd love to sell you this MS3 Extra.
I really enjoy it! I made the switch to the LS2 style individual ignition coils using a wasted spark scheme and it has run great so far. I was surprised that my idle actually did become more stable. I've been forever used to the tach needle bouncing around at least 50 RPM and this is dead steady. I actually thought the tach needle was stuck the first time I started it up! I also love how much simpler the ignition control is with wasted spark and individual coils. I no longer have to worry about a cracked cap, carbon buildup on the rotor or terminals, bad pickup sensor, overheating or a dying Ignition Control Module, retiming the engine if the distributor is pulled or moved or verifying that the ECM and Distributor timied together, spark drift from all the natural slack between all of the mechanical components or buying expensive coils that can completely charge above 3,000 RPM. I kick myself that I didn't do this years ago. I thought about using some of the inputs for more sensors but I've become interested in traction control so I think I will just switch to MS3 Pro in the future and add them in when I have to install a new harness anyway. Maybe I'll get to that project in a year from now. If you're still interested in MS3 at that time I'd love to sell you this MS3 Extra.
CNP is dead reliable and stable. Very happy I switched. I really dig the LTx blocks, you can pull the intake without even breaking into the coolant system, but it's nice to be able to even pull the intake on my SBC now without messing with base timing.
I'm really really happy with my MS2 extra, but I have thought about eventually upgrading to add e-trans control. One day, if my new TH350 explodes I would probably do an e-trans and let the ECU shift it at the track so I can concentrate on keeping the car straight. The MS3 extra still needs a microsquirt or something for e-trans control though right? I think you don't get trans control in a single case unless you go pro / ultimate?
The MS3 extra still needs a microsquirt or something for e-trans control though right? I think you don't get trans control in a single case unless you go pro / ultimate?
-- Joe
That's what I've understood, separate controller for transmission with MS3 unless it's the Pro version.
Keep In mind I'm using an edis ICM so I'm not reading the crank trigger or driving the coils directly, but my settings are:
TRIGGER ANGLE -2.00
FALLING EDGE
GOING HIGH
CAM INPUT
NORMAL POLARITY (CAM)
NO PREDICTION
CRANK DWELL 6
CRANK ADVANCE 20
STANDARD DWELL
SPARK LATENCY 38
I have a friend who has installed a programmable ICM on his LT-5. So now he is able to use 8 individual LSx style coils in waste spark mode rather than the stock ones. I notice anesthes that u are working w spark latency. Is that something should be adjusted when using LSx coils? Do the coils themselves have a latency we should be aware of and does it vary by coil type?
You may be thinking of dwell time and not latency. The dwell time will change from coil to coil unless they are the same part numbers. Dwell time is a product of a coils inductance, resistance and voltage. Dwell time can be critical because too short of a dwell time and the coil will not completely charge and too long of a time can cause the coil to overheat, melt or fire prematurely. Spark latency should be unaffected by the ignition coil. Spark latency should be the time it takes the crank sensor to read the position, transmit that position to the ecm, the ecm to make its computations and then send out the spark order and the spark to reach the plug. You can check latency by locking the timing in the ecm and verifying with a timing gun that the timing reads the same at idle and at 3K rpm.
Thank u Tibo, but no I was thinking of the ICM latency. I get the latency thing when the ICM was part of the distributor and the LT-5 has an ICM, albeit something quite a bit different than most. However, my understanding of CnP or COP is that the function of an ICM has been distributed to the ignition coils themselves as there is no ICM. I know we have discussed the latency of ignition modules here before.
Having said that, are u saying that all of that is essentially incorporated into the Spark Latency #? Also, what would be the signs that ur latency numbers would be inaccurate?
So with the EDIS ICM, the dwell settings do absolutely nothing as the MS doesn't talk to the coils.
The hardware latency is roughly the time it takes for the MS to command an advance and the spark plug actually fire. You increase the value if you are noticing your timing is retarding with RPM.
I'm assuming that your ICM sends a reference signal to the ECU, and then the ECU commands spark advance. The ICM deals with the firing order and which cylinder it will be firing. If there is some latency or lag in this communication, you can increase the hardware latency so it will send the command earlier (in regards to time, not degrees) so that the plug fires at the expected number of degrees BTDC.
LS2 coils shouldn't have any dwell as they are 'logic level' - they have built in ignitors. LS1 coils do not, and require an ignitor which can be the ECU or ICM, depending on what actually grounds the coil.
Tibo is correct on how you verify latency. Lock your advance, and check it with a light at idle, 3k, and 6k. If it retards as RPM's go up you have latency. Add latency (in usec) until you no longer have a discrepancy.
Thx anesthes. This is new territory for us w LT-5s. There has been little possibility up to now of upgrading to CnP. I think it will be great for our motors, particularly since they like to operate and produce power higher up the rpm scale than the SBC.
Thx anesthes. This is new territory for us w LT-5s. There has been little possibility up to now of upgrading to CnP. I think it will be great for our motors, particularly since they like to operate and produce power higher up the rpm scale than the SBC.
Can you link me to the ICM ?
The thing that always is an issue for me is the integration with the BCM/CCM. I have a '94 Vette and I'm kinda on the fence about swapping the PCM due to this.
The original LS1 Denso CnP coils with the built in ignitor have a fixed latency of 22 usec. This is from the falling edge of the EST signal until the spark plug fires. I haven't checked any of the other GM CnP coils.
Regarding the small cap distributor ICM latency there is a thread on the DIY_PROM board:
The thing that always is an issue for me is the integration with the BCM/CCM. I have a '94 Vette and I'm kinda on the fence about swapping the PCM due to this.
-- Joe
Joe,
The problem is that the source of these ICMs is sketchy. Few available and pretty much handbuilt. I can give u a link for it but not sure it would do u any good. There is another solution for u here at http://www.torqhead.com/index.html
This is available for the 94-96 LTx motors and integrates nicely w the CCM. I’ve been trying to coax them into doing same for the LT5 since it would kill 2 birds w one stone. Our community would gain access both to a more modern PCM while freeing us from a very critical problem of not having a substitute for our ICM. As a by-product we get to use CnP.
an adaptation of this solution to the LT-5 is actually simpler than to the L98 or LTx motors since the LT-5 already has its own crank signal and cam signal. Then it becomes a matter of just converting those signals for use by the PCM. The one sticking point is that our reluctor is a 9slot, not the more typical 24 or 56.
The original LS1 Denso CnP coils with the built in ignitor have a fixed latency of 22 usec. This is from the falling edge of the EST signal until the spark plug fires. I haven't checked any of the other GM CnP coils.
Regarding the small cap distributor ICM latency there is a thread on the DIY_PROM board:
The problem is that the source of these ICMs is sketchy. Few available and pretty much handbuilt. I can give u a link for it but not sure it would do u any good. There is another solution for u here at http://www.torqhead.com/index.html
This is available for the 94-96 LTx motors and integrates nicely w the CCM. I’ve been trying to coax them into doing same for the LT5 since it would kill 2 birds w one stone. Our community would gain access both to a more modern PCM while freeing us from a very critical problem of not having a substitute for our ICM. As a by-product we get to use CnP.
an adaptation of this solution to the LT-5 is actually simpler than to the L98 or LTx motors since the LT-5 already has its own crank signal and cam signal. Then it becomes a matter of just converting those signals for use by the PCM. The one sticking point is that our reluctor is a 9slot, not the more typical 24 or 56.
I've looked at the Torqhead and it's a neat system, as well as the LTCC stuff. Kinda expensive for what it is though (Torqhead) and I don't like the idea of using a factory LS based PCM. But I do see the appeal as a plug and play system, and they did a nice job with the cam sensor replacing the Opti.
An MS3 can read the Opti signal as a cam sensor and run 8 coils, but MS3's are expensive too. I like the idea of external ICM's (like EDIS) for folks running MS2, Microsquirt, etc.
If you could PM me the link that would be great. Curious what is available and how it's designed.
anesthes, I have really enjoyed your information! I have been running EDIS controlled by a MegaJolt for many years and have been looking for a way to do a coil near plug conversion. Your diagram above with twin EDIS modules looks perfect. I have an extra EDIS-8 module. However you did not mention what coils would have the right resistance or reluctance to play nice with the EDIS module. Can you help with that?
anesthes, I have really enjoyed your information! I have been running EDIS controlled by a MegaJolt for many years and have been looking for a way to do a coil near plug conversion. Your diagram above with twin EDIS modules looks perfect. I have an extra EDIS-8 module. However you did not mention what coils would have the right resistance or reluctance to play nice with the EDIS module. Can you help with that?
RallySnake
Hi,
So using the EDIS-8 module, I used normal Ford EDIS coils. However, I've also been thinking of using an EDIS-8 module with LS1 coils for an LS project. The EDIS coils are around .500 ohm.
I think the problem is going to be the dwell time. A stock EDIS module has a dwell between 3.5 and 4.1 ms. The module is hard coded for that, and you can't override it. A stock LS1 coil will tolerate 3.5 ms of dwell. The D485 coils will automatically fire around 4ms to prevent damage, which will obviously cause artificial advance.
So I guess what I'm saying is the EDIS module might work with other coils, but it also might create too much dwell.
Thank you very much for your response! I drive my car on long distance car rally events, so reliability is the first priority. I do not want to experiment with unknown components and get stuck in the middle of nowhere. The wasted spark system works very well and it was impressive the first time i drove the car without a distributer. On my 40 year old car, having very cylinder fire every time was eye opening. The system does tend to wear out spark plugs pretty fast though. I was looking to make my engine compartment look better, but I will heed your advice and keep the compatible components together. I am running a SBC 400 in my Cobra Replica. and have been looking for this EDIS upgrade information for some time. Thank you for preventing me wasting a lot of time and money! My coil packs are hidden inside the 427 surge tank (like distributors, another unreliable device)!
Paul
Last edited by RallySnake; 03-11-2023 at 12:52 AM.
So using the EDIS-8 module, I used normal Ford EDIS coils. However, I've also been thinking of using an EDIS-8 module with LS1 coils for an LS project. The EDIS coils are around .500 ohm.
I think the problem is going to be the dwell time. A stock EDIS module has a dwell between 3.5 and 4.1 ms. The module is hard coded for that, and you can't override it. A stock LS1 coil will tolerate 3.5 ms of dwell. The D485 coils will automatically fire around 4ms to prevent damage, which will obviously cause artificial advance.
So I guess what I'm saying is the EDIS module might work with other coils, but it also might create too much dwell.
-- Joe
terminator x max ECU works with the Ford 36x reluctor, add a simple cam sync and you have full sequential fuel/ignition control, as well as dbw and trans control. The ECU O2 sensor, and unterminated harness is a bargain, put the dbw t-body and pedal out of several late model gm trucks. Would be as close to state of the art as you can get on a budget. The system wiring is very straightforward and simple, with diagrams for free online. Take the time to put egt and O2 sensor bungs in each primary, it will help tuning on a chassis Dyno, once done simply plug them and put O2 back in one of the primaries. Probably find 5-15 hp, better economy, and most importantly stop tuning to the leanest most detonation prone cylinder. Probably know all that already Joe, just saying. You can piece it together for 2k or less. Drag the car into the 21st century 🤣
terminator x max ECU works with the Ford 36x reluctor, add a simple cam sync and you have full sequential fuel/ignition control, as well as dbw and trans control. The ECU O2 sensor, and unterminated harness is a bargain, put the dbw t-body and pedal out of several late model gm trucks. Would be as close to state of the art as you can get on a budget. The system wiring is very straightforward and simple, with diagrams for free online. Take the time to put egt and O2 sensor bungs in each primary, it will help tuning on a chassis Dyno, once done simply plug them and put O2 back in one of the primaries. Probably find 5-15 hp, better economy, and most importantly stop tuning to the leanest most detonation prone cylinder. Probably know all that already Joe, just saying. You can piece it together for 2k or less. Drag the car into the 21st century 🤣
I like the Holley stuff. I've thought about terminator X max if I go with an e-trans. I'm out of outputs on my MS and I'd likely buy a terminator X instead of ms3.
The only real reason to run EDIS is because it only needs two wires, where a wasted spark normally requires 4. The MS I have doesn't have as much I/O as the newer stuff. My MS car is getting a LS + turbo. I can run 24x wasted spark, but I won't have enough outputs for an electronic boost controller.
The other problem with EDIS is that all the modules are now 20+ years old. Just like his Megajolt :-)
You've got the 36-1 + sensor already, that's the hard part. IMO. Holley, MS, just about anything should support that. For repackaging inside your coolant tank, you might look up UF484 coils. A pair of those would be easy to wire up as wasted spark or COP depending on what you use. They look pretty compact. I dig how you hid your current setup. Along with those SBF valve covers, it looks pretty legit.
I've done a couple SBC-COP conversions using a MS3X, 36-1, Vortec truck distrubutor for a cam sensor, and LS truck coils. Works well. I bought a couple wheels and sensor brackets that look very similar to Joe's off ebay years ago and I'm bummed I don't have any left.
The other problem with EDIS is that all the modules are now 20+ years old. Just like his Megajolt :-)
You've got the 36-1 + sensor already, that's the hard part. IMO. Holley, MS, just about anything should support that. For repackaging inside your coolant tank, you might look up UF484 coils. A pair of those would be easy to wire up as wasted spark or COP depending on what you use. They look pretty compact. I dig how you hid your current setup. Along with those SBF valve covers, it looks pretty legit.
I've done a couple SBC-COP conversions using a MS3X, 36-1, Vortec truck distrubutor for a cam sensor, and LS truck coils. Works well. I bought a couple wheels and sensor brackets that look very similar to Joe's off ebay years ago and I'm bummed I don't have any left.
-Dave
I started using Megasquirt about 12 years ago. At the time the features were fantastic for the price. Now Holley just blows it away.
So, the deal in a nutshell is this.. I sold my '68 Convertible a few weeks ago. I was going to put the 412" SBC in that, but about 6 months ago I bought my old '79 Z28 back from the friend I sold it to back in 2009. So that's sitting in one of my shipping containers ready to be built, so I'm going to stick the 412" in that with a small roots blower, T10, lakewood scattershield, and make a cool street car out of it.
The '88 Formula I sold a couple years ago as a roller anded up touring the country and coming back to me last week. The fuel system and trans/rear is set up for 800+ HP and it has the megasquirt, so I'm going to stick the 5.3 I have in that with either a GT45 or T76. I have 4 spark channels so I can run wasted spark on the 24x trigger. I'll lose one of my outputs that I was using for a shift light, but I figure an aftermarket shift light is better than trying to get a 36-1 trigger working on an LS block.
Eventually, I'll probably swap to a terminator X max, probably when I get sick of using the ratchet shifter at the track and want to go to a 4l80E. Assuming the E trans control on the Holley works the way I think it does. (WOT shift points for track use)
11-01-2016, 10:13 AM
