Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys, been away for a while. Just put in my new starter from Summit Racing, very happy with it. But now when I run the car, it has a rough idle, then got worse. Wont stay running at all. Sometimes wont even start, just turns over.

I ran a test on the ECM and got 2 codes: 14 and 42.

I recently replaced all the wires, spark plugs, dis cap and rotor, basically a full tune up. The exuast is new from the cats back as well. She was running great before, just starter issues, now new starter and now these 2 codes. Been looking online but best to go where are the 3 gen smart people are at! Any help would be appreciated. thanks!

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

When replacing the starter you may have jiggled something loose- like a power wire or the knock sensor wire. I forget what code 42 is as it's been a while for me.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Code 14: Coolant temperature sensor signal indicates a temperature of over 266° F for 3 seconds.

Code 42: The EST signal did not change when the ECM applied bypass voltage to the ignition module.

Whats odd is I had the car lifted in the front after I put the starter it, and ran it for 20 minutes. Ran great. Then I dropped it ran it again for a bit. Then it would just turn over but not run. let it cool and started it up. Started running ruff and the check engine light came on. Now it barely starts, when it does, very rough idle and if I give it gas it will stall, almost like its missing. I disconnected the battery, will try again later today.

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

Disconnect the coolant sensor and try again. Then if no change reconnect, and disconnect EST bypass wire and see if it changes. That's what I would try. Could be the starter issue is unrelated and the issue just exposed itself by happenstance.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Ok, so I have an update finally. I put in a new knock sensor, and the car starts and idles fine, when I get on the gas it wants to stall then get caught up. The check engine light comes on but now I am only getting the code 42. Code 14 has been resolved.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

just want to add. I DID put in a module to override the VATS, could that be the issue for code 42?

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok, so I let it ran and code 14 came back. But she runs great now with both codes. As suggested I pulled the connector of the temp sensor as alex722607 suggested, she wont start. I am going to get a new temp sensor, cap and rotor next.

Also very long time ago I put in an external coil from excel. Wondering if that may be the issue.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok one more update before I replace parts. I disconnected the temp sensor, and still get code 14 and 42. I reconnected it and then the EST connector was disconnect, no change. Reconnected EST and had to work to get the car started. Once, done gave it some gas, normal idle but codes are still active.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Pull the ECM down and lay it on the carpet. Leave it connected to the EFI harness.

Start the engine and let it idle. Rap on the ECM with your knuckles, just like knocking on a door. If the engine stumbles or the SES blinks on & off, the ECM is bad.

RBob.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Rbob

ohh that is the good one. will do that before I go to the auto store. thanks! Where is a good place to get a replacement ECM if need be?

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Rbob, tried that, the idle is ruff already but I got it to run steady, knocked on the ECM, nothing, runs fine, engine light stays on. Thanks for the heads up.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

new cap and rotor and new temp. sensor. No good, same problem. I will say that when its running, normal idle for the most part. But when I rev it, it back fires just bit, not every time.

I wish these codes would make more damn sense. Last thing is to replace the ECM at this point I guess. Any thoughts would be great. thanks!

vinny R

I was having a similar problem without the backfire. I don't get codes either.
after chasing it for awhile I checked my t-stat and someone had drilled a hole in the thing. It also was a 160 degree. I replaced it with a 180 degree and it is idling, starting and running great now. If you say one of the codes has to do with engine temp this is a quick easy check.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Vinny, thanks. I am the original owner and I had 160 degree t-stat in it for years without issue. I put the standar 180 back 2 years ago.

So I let the car sit with the battery disconnected. Low and behold, code 14 cleared. HOWEVER, now I have a code 32 and still code 42. I have done the following so far:

New cap and rotor
new temp sensor
pulled ECM and knocked on it while running, no issue
pulled est connector and checked codes, was still getting 14 and 42 yesterday

I have an old Accel 140008 super coil and they are still around. I am going to have it checked and the ignition module (under the cap and rotor) at auto zone today.

Cod 32 is the EGR system. Now I have to check all that.

Just to confirm the car starts fine now, no more sputtering and stalling much anymore. but when I give it gas, it hesitates and near stalls then revs up. I get some minor backfire at times, not all the time.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok. So I was able to get he ignition module checked, no issues working fine. They checked the ohms on the Accell 140008 coil, within the range. So now I am at the ECM. Not sure what to do next aside from replacing it.

I am also going to pull the plenum to address this EGR code 32.

If anyone can shed some more light on the code 42 I would really appreciate it! thanks.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

sorry to keep posting but update. Code 32 stopped. I took off the coil and ign. module to have them tested. I cleaned the contacts and now ONLY cod 42 is showing up. Car still attempts to stall when I give it gas, but then revs up normally. Seems to be idling fine and no starting issues, starts right up. Damn this is frustrating!!!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Pull the chip out and reintall it, you may get lucky. Just had one that was doing weird stuff and it had some corrosion buildup, pulled it apart, put it together and all is fine..

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, will try that next. As soon as I can get home at a decent hour from work.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Also, my thinking is being I just changed the starter I may have messed something up. The knock sensor was changed. Is there anything else near the starter I might have messed up to cause the code 42?

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

I am at witts end with this. Pulled the chip and reset it. Now it's back to starting rough idle the dies. I put in the new high performance starter and the troubles started. Not sure where to go with this outside of a replacement ecm from advanced auto. Summer is going by and I can't drive this car.help!!!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Did you test the coolant sensor on the front of the intake? Ing module ? Pickup coil? Coil ? OHM check the injs? if stock).
Replaced the maf power and burnoff relays?

SbFormula

That's what solved the problem on mine. The 89 to 92 Multect injectors on TPI are prone to failure. They will create some "electro magnetic noise" and the metering will be completely out of whack. In the video, the guy with the Corvette was having overheating problems. In my case, it was an overly rich AF mixture because the O2 sensor was tricked into thinking the AF mixture was too lean. The ECM kept adding fuel! I contacted John at Fuel Injector Connection and he sent me a replacement set of bosch. The car runs like new. I had to change the spark plugs and the O2 sensor because they were burnt from an AF mixture that was too rich. Though the injectors checked out good on regular testing! It will be a good investment anyway because sooner or later the Multec will fail. It is a problem with the inside coil insulation material that degrades with time. It is believed that the products contained in modern gasoline (cleaner, ethanol, etc...) are damaging the insulation material. I've attached a picture to help you identify if you have Multec or not. You could try also to data log from the ECM to see what the sensors are reading. A bad EGR valve would create a lot of commotion too. Don't rely too much on the codes.


Have you checked fuel pressure?


Best of luck!

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

I just remebered that when I was running into a funny issue with my car, the wires that are on the starter (where it acts like a junction block to power everything in the car) - one of them was only held into the connector by one strand of wire. It actually turned the car into a lifeless hunk of metal for a week before I found it. It could be something as stupid as that - God know the electrical portion of any stock 3rd gen f-body leaves a lot to be desired.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Thanks. Trmp sensor is new. Coil ignit module tested both ok.
Need to check the pickup coil and maf?

Would any of that throw a code 42?

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Thanks the injectors are next. Even if ok I want to replace them!

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Thanks will double check them as well.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok so tomorrow I am going to replace all the relays and pickup coil. I will also check the MAF sensor itself. As well as the connectors to the starter. Man I hope I figure this out.

How do I OHM the fuel injectors, I know its posted here I am sure. What should they read?

Would any of this throw a code 42?

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Ok, so I did not bother with the pickup coil yet. I am considering just replacing the entire distributor at this point. I also had several people look at the MAF, all the wires are present. I used a specific CRC cleaner on it as well. I also noticed the 4 post contacts on the MAF seem a bit dirty so I used a CRC cleaner on them and the female side. I then noticed the PCV hose was shot, long story, so I replace it as well. Before I could get it running normally, now its back to hard start sputter and dies. I am ready to check the fuel injectors now. What do I set the OHM meter too and what is the measurement? Does it matter which side the testers go, red on one and black on the other etc?

Man this is such a pain. I just don't get why the CODE 42 is so vague and hard to address. NUTS!

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok I am going to go crazy. My brother who knows engines was just visiting. I was showing him what was wrong. So he says replace the injectors, all ready to do that now, South Bay here I come.

BUT, he pulled the TPS 3 pin connector. Then puts in back in, try and start it he says..... BOOM, NO CODE, ENGINE NORMAL. WTF?!?!!?! So we shot some CRC electrical cleaner in it, let it dry. She is warming up now, NO ENGINE light, RUNS GREAT. COME ON!!!!!!

I am still going to put in new injectors being they are the originals.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Never ends. So I put the ECM back, buttoned up everything and YUP, the problem is back, code 42, rough idle the works. So I pulled the TPS connector again, cleaned it again, did not work this time. I got the pigtail to replace the connector but I don't see anything wrong with the original or the wires. I had to order a TPS replacement, will have it tomorrow. This is beyond frustrating!!

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

That's it I have had it with this issue. I put in an new TPS, the car will barely start now. Not sure if its the fuel injectors, MAF, distributor or ECM. I don't have the money to keep dumping into this car. If I did not love the damn thing I would burn it. So it will sit until next spring. I am giving up for now. Thanks for all the help, wish I could have fixed this stupid code 42. A code that makes so sense and there is no real explanation for it. Beyond frustrating.

Now to go work on my JEEP, this I DO need for the coming winter.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Throwing parts at it without testing things is bad.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

I have no choice. Sorry for my last rant. Wife jumped in and I have new South Bay fuel injectors. I have the plenum off, just need to get the runners out now. I am replacing the following:
Fuel injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
EGR valve
IAT sensor aka Coolant temp sensor under the plenum (connector is black)
new gaskets
replace vacuum lines from charcoal canister to plenum and break booster vacuum line

I am temped to pull the distributer to get a new pickup coil installed as well. Thoughts?

I hope this works. Or I am looking at a new MAF sensor or ECM. I checked all the wiring related to all the above, no issues found visually. Anyway, thanks for all the help, will update when possible.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Have you googled code 42 yet to see how code 42 is set? That will tell you where to start and just about everything thats all is involved to fix it. The esc module is also part of that.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Yes found a troubleshooter page with yes or no answers for this code and will go though it as well. But being I wanted to update the fuel injectors anyway why not fix everything else in that area of the car.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Ok tearing this down and of course one of the torx bolts on the passenger side to get that runner off stripped. CHRIST I HATE TORX!. On top of that the lower gas line bolt rounded. So I can get it of to get the mounting bracket off the block. More than likely will need to cut it and replace the metal lower gas line. This after soaking it with WD 40 of course. What a lousy design this is. Better than a foreign car though!

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Damn EGR, has a pig tail connector with a brass fitting. I cant get it off of course. So the mounting screw is also stuck. And of course this is not a part that is available from any auto parts store. This is getting beyond frustrating.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

That is the EGR temp sensor.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Update. Got it all back together. Same code 42 and now a code 22. Hard start rough idle and stalls/backfired when give it gas. I just replugged in the tps connector. Now it starts sound amazing for 5 seconds and stalls. Give it gas stalls. Still has both codes.

New:
Tps
Egr
Southbay fuel injectors
Sensor on the underside of the plenum(same as coolant sensor)
Relaced all vacuum hoses
Cleaned plenum and runners internally
Coolant sensor
Gas pressure diaphragm (orange round rubber with spring in the middle)
Cap and rotor

Where do I go from here? Will need to check the fuel pressure now. Not sure why she stalls.
Next to replace

Ecm
Mas

I am ready to torch this car. I friggen hate these damn sensors.

SbFormula

Would be nice to data log what's going on with the sensors. When I changed my injectors I put everything back together and did not put RVT on the runner/plenum gaskets. I had read forums and the consensus was no RVT. Guess what? Had a major vacuum leak and the car was running like crap smoking the neighbourhood. Had to strip everything and put everything back together with RTV and she ran like new. By data logging I was able to see the MAP was reading way too high which indicated a vaccum leak at idle.


Yep be nice to check your fuel pressure


Cheers

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Ouch, never have used rtv on intake runners in 25yrs..

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

Thanks that could explain the code 22 and that she is stalling I guess. But I am.still stuck with the original code 42. It more seems like it starves for gas now. I am going to check the fuel pressure next.

Right now she start right up no engine light and runs amazing for 5 - 10 seconds then stalls. No sputtering etc. Howeve r if I give it gas and hold just a bit it sputters and backfires slightly.

I just don't know. Driving me crazy!! I appreciate all the help though!

SbFormula

I know but unfortunately it happened to my surprise. My only explanation was that gouges and scratches were induced during the old gasket removing process as part of being an amateur or it was just bad luck. The aftermarket gaskets did not look as good as the OEM which were bonded to the runners and intake from 21 years of heat and compression. Anyhow, a tinny line of rvt and it was fixed.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

SbFormula. Did the issue give you a code 22 and did the car stall?

SbFormula

I don't remember if I had a code! Probably but did not pay attention to it. I was monitoring with Datamaster at start up in open loop (300 second period after start up) and could observed the MAP at 80Kpa at idle which is way too high. The TPS was indicating close throttle so the ECM was thinking I was at idle. It was trying to compensate to keep RPM at idle RPM target by pulling spark and closing IAC. Since I was in open loop already in enriched AFR around 11:0, with MAP at 80KPA, the VE table was way too high and I ended with an overly rich AFR. The engine could not rev despite all the air available and was bogging down. I ended up smoking the neighbourhood with a nice smell of gasoline which brought the attention of a few rubberneckers. The car did not stall.

NOW THIS WAS WITH A SPEED DENSITY SYSTEM

Your system is a MAF so a vacuum leak after the MAF sensor would not be detected by the ECM and the car should be lean. In open loop you might not feel it as much since the car runs richer but in closed loop the AFR target is 14.7:1. That could explained why the car runs good at the beginning and then bogs down. Could it explain your code 22? I am not sure but these ECMs throw some codes sometimes that don't make sense to us but do to them.

Having said that it's one possibility. Without monitoring the ECM and checking vacuum and fuel pressure with gauges, it's just one other possibilities among many. It's hard to fix a TPI problem with trial an error by changing parts. Some issues are tricky sometimes and need monitoring of sensors, fuel pressure, voltage and vacuum among other things.
.
A code 22 is related to the TPS sensor low voltage and 42 to EST circuit. You'll have to investigate that. There are some diagnosis chart but I can't find them on the internet. Here's a good book .

Trying to help but by all means I'm still learning everyday

Best of luck!

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if this was suggested, but what about the EST module?
Electronic spark timing could mess with you a lot.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

lots of great info thanks! I will check out that book as well.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

I will get that replaced as well. thanks.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

this code 42 started shortly after I put in a high performance (shorter starter) from Summit Racing. What are all the wires that attach to the starter please? I ,know one goes to the battery, but where to all the others go? thanks.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

ok, so I let it sit for a while and fired her up yesterday. NOW she runs at a higher idle. When I give it gas, it wants to die, but if I do is slowly it revs up ok. But NOW I have 3 codes!!!
Code 22
Code 32
Code 42

32 is the newest one. Before I had 22 and 42 and it would start, sound great for 10 seconds, they die. Or when I started it if I gave it gas right away it would die.

This is crazy. I am moth balling her then end of this month and will revisit in the spring I guess. Just so frustrating, another summer and no firebird.