fokeyman

Sorry, fyi=for your information. Just threw on a relevant link for a more in depth article in the 'How-Tos" section of the forum.

Falcon50

Ok. Thank you fokeyman.

Today, I checked the value of differents sensors. IAC is at 160 and change when the car "starts", TPS at 0,61 v and increase when I throttle, MAP is à 4,5 v (I live at 300 m altitude and this value is ok) and decrease when the engine starts. But I find the O2 sensor at 0.451 v and I read on the shop manual that the value should be 0 v until the temperature reach 600°F. Also, could be that sensor which cause a problem? It could change open loop to closed loop so the engine is not enough warm? Tomorrow, I'll try to disconnect the O2 sensor and to see if that change something.
To follow......

Falcon50

Hi.

I received my gauge and checked the fuel pressure. I found 1 PSI ! . Also I removed the fuel filter, but it's ok. Also now, I have to remove the fuel tank to check the fuel pump. I'll tell you news when it's done.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
You have 1 psi fuel pressure? Did you check your fuel pressure regulator and did you check fuel pressure while you were cranking the engine? The ECM will prime the fuel system for about 2 sec then shut the pump off unless it sees engine revolutions. You said earlier in this thread that you checked the fuel pump by the method in your shop manual. Did you try that test again? At the ALDL connector, you can jumper +12 to terminal G to run the fuel pump constantly to allow you to get a good pressure reading. Be sure the gauge is correctly connected to get a good reading. Let us know. GL!
Al

Falcon50

Hi Al.

Yes I checked the fuel pump like the shop manual said, but I realize that I didn't do it well. I checked the flow of fuel and it was good, but I didn't check the pressure by restricting the fuel line back to the tank. Also you're right may be the fuel pressure regulator is out of order. this could explain why I have a good flow of fuel but no pressure.

I had already drain the tank. Also before to remove the fuel tank, I'll fill it again and test the fuel pressure by restricting the back fuel line. May be it will avoid me a lot or work to remove the tank to reach the fuel pump.
I'll let you know what I found.
Thank you for your good advice.
Jean Luc

Falcon50

Hi Al and all the followers.

I tested the fuel pump pressure by restricting the back fuel line, and.........I had no pressure (always 1 PSI) Also I decided to remove the pump. I chose to remove it doing a good job also I removed the fuel tank.
I was afraid to do it, because it seemed me that it was a lot of work, and in fact, it was not as difficult as I thought. I did it quietly, doing the things like shop manual says and I was surprise to did it so easily. Sure it took me more time that to cut the trunk panel, but, I'm glad to preserved the integrity of my car and to do the job like it has to be.

If someone is afraid to do it, sincerely I told you do it. Nothing difficult. More, this allowed me to unloose the rusted nuts and to avoid that with the years, there are "melted" in the rust. I'll put grease on them when I'll reassemble them, and if once a day, I have to remove them again, it will be very easy. I found too a slight rust on all the soldering of the fuel tank. To remove it is a good opportunity to treat it and avoid future leaks.
When I removed the fuel pump, I found a problem! The hose inside the fuel tank has a hole ! In fact it's more a slot. That explain why I had a good flow of fuel as manual shop give it because there was almost no leak back to the fuel tank when the line was not in pressure, and when I restricted the fuel line, the pressure opened the slot and gas went back directly to the fuel tank. I join two photos. One with the slot like it is when no pressure and the other when open (like with pressure). Is opens almost like my little finger .

So I ordered a new fuel pump (I can't find here a hose who resist submersion in fuel (I read that the good one is an SAE 30 R 10 )). I ordered at Rockauto a fuel pump Bosh. I'll be sure that the hose and the fuel pump will be ok .

I don't know now if the fuel regulator will be ok, and I'll check it right after resettlement of the fuel pump and fuel tank.
I hope I found why my car doesn't run. I'll let you know.

I hope too that this "adventure" will help you if you have a problem of start and stall engine. Check fuel pressure !!!!

Jean Luc

fokeyman

Nice to find an actual problem. Hopefully replacing that hose fixes the problem. Good luck!

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

I'm with fokeyman, good you found the problem. If we trace this thread all the way from the beginning, you actually corrected a few problems. Firstly, the distributor was bad and definitely needed to be changed. It may have worked but wouldn't have worked for long. The discrepancy with the balancer has been solved and now the fuel pump needs replacing. As stated before, you are going to get your car running well again and you can take pride in the fact you did it. I believe you gained a lot of knowledge about your car and all cars as well so you can be confident in that fact. Future problems won't seem so daunting. I am glad to hear your enthusiasm about getting your car running again. The nice weather is just around the corner and I await the good news! GL!
Al

Falcon50

Hi AL and Fokeyman. Thank you for yours encouragements. I agree Al that all I did on my car, needed to be done. It will not run for long! But I own this car since 13 years now, and I didn't do anything except changing oil (but I did only 3000 miles).
You're right when you say that I gained a lot of knowledge about my Camaro. I'm going to be a specialist in France. But I recognize that without your help, I'll not be at this point. Also .
I'm very excitiing, because the end of this problems seems close (I hope). And to repair my car makes my very proud too, like you say, because my father was a good car mechanic and he would be happy to see me doing all that (I lost him 10 months ago). He loved all the mechanical things and always helped me when I had problems with my cars. Also,to repar this car makes me "in connection" with him.

Thank you for your help again. I'm still waiting for my fuel pump. I'll tell you when I'll change it.

Jean Luc

Falcon50

Hi. I'm still waiting my fuel pump.
So, I edited a video. When I removed the fuel tank, I made a video of what I did. Also, for those who want to see what work should be done to remove it, you can see the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRD...ature=youtu.be

I'll put too a video about how to remove the fuel pump, and another one, how to fix the fuel gage sender (mine was not accurate. When I'll did it, I'll put here the links.
Hope these video will be helpful.
Jean Luc

Falcon50

Hi.

I received my fuel pump, installed it and reassembled fuel tank on the car and all the parts removed to access to the fuel pump. I tested the fuel pressure just by squeezing a rubber hose installed just before the TBI and found ..... 30 PSI . Nothing to see with the 1 PSI I had before to remove the pump (my new pump is a bosch).

After, I checked the pressure in normal use and found 11 PSI. Manual shop gives a pressure between 9 to 13 PSI also, I'm ok. So the fuel regulator is ok.

After that, I crank the engine, and................... it runs very well . And this even with the spark timing not checked with the spark light (I have to do it).

So I'm very very glad to found what was the problem with my car since it fall out of order since now 8 month.

It seems that the problem with the SES light I spoke at the beginning of this thread is not linked, and perhaps, it doesn't do any problem. I don't know why there is this problem, but the more important is that it doesn't affect the car. I did not drive yet my camaro because, the technical control of my car is out, and I have to pass it again to be able to drive on the road (French law). Also, when I'll have it and drove on the road to test, I'll tell you if all is ok.

I want to thank particularly Al who helped me a lot, and who draws my attention on the fuel pressure. If I had an accurate gage when I tested it at first, it would help to find the problem more quickly. It's my fault. But Al, thank you very very much for your help. Without your help, I would be yet looking for the problem .

I hope that all that "story" will help others followers who might have a problem like me.

Again thank you.

Jean Luc

fokeyman

Glad to hear you're up and running. Over here, your technical control is called an inspection. Should be a fun test drive

Falcon50

Thank you Fokeyman. I'll let you know. Thank you too for your help.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
Sorry for the delay in response but I had to take the wife to Jamaica for a week! Anyway, it's truly GREAT to hear your car runs again! You did a lot of work and cleaned up a few problems which should mean trouble-free driving for quite some time. Look at all the experience you gained and can be proud you did it yourself! No more fears and no need to find a shop that can do the work on your car as now you can probably do just about any repair needed. Now, in your leisure, you can track down that SES problem. Get that car tested and enjoy the beautiful weather! As always, TGO is here to help if the need should arise. Great Job....

Falcon50

Hi Al.

Very glad to have news from you. You helped me so much, so to read your satisfaction for me give me a large smile. I appreciate the congratulation of my mechanical master.

But you are not going to believe me, Al. I found news problems on my Camaro.

The first one is the fuel pressure. When I tested the fuel pressure after installation of the fuel pump, I founded 11 PSI. I let my gage on the fuel line, until my car was all reassemble. This morning, I wanted to check the timing also I let the car running until it's hot. The rpm was 1600 and it never goes down! I adjusted the timing but at 1600 rpm! And I checked my fuel gage pressure, and I read more that 30 PSI. It went at the maximum of my gage! .

After thinking what could happen, I thought that when I reassembled the fuel tank on the car, I asked me is my fuel rubber hoses at the rear of the car was well assembled. I asked me if I could connected the return fuel line of the tank on the canister fuel line and the canister fuel line tank on the fuel line return. I tried to check on my shop manual, and on the forum to find what are the correct fuel lines, but I didn't find the information. Also I connected like it seemed good (I couldn't check the fuel pump assembly, because all was installed in the tank, and the tank on the car. to much work to disassembly all again. Also, may be it is the problem. Tomorrow, I'll try to disconnect the rubber hose and to check again to pressure to see if the problem is the fuel regulator, or the fuel lines.

I founded also a problem with the temperature gage. The computer (aldl) gave me 175 F° and the gage of the car 100 F°. And the RPM too. The computer gave me 950-1050 and the car gave me 1600 rpm! But this last one was the good one. The car was running to quick. Also, I have a little bit of work to do...... This car is well decided to annoy me......

Also, after the pleasure to have repair the car, I'm back in the problems....... I'll see tomorrow, with the pressure to begin. The others problems are less important. They will not impede me to drive my car........ ha ha ha.....

I'll tell you what I founded.....

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Jean Luc, what software are you using? TunerProRT? If so, what bin file and what definition file are you using? You will get weird readings if you use mismatched files. If you are using the correct files, the readings in TunerPro will be the correct readings as they are direct from the ECM. The gauges are analog and things such as loose connections or corrosion will affect the readings. The high idle could be caused by a number of reasons such as a vacuum leak. A leak acts similar to the IAC being open in that it lets unmetered air into the engine which causes a lean condition as seen by the O2 sensor. The ECM compensates for the lean condition by adding fuel to the mix. This creates a situation where there is more air and fuel getting into the engine causing it to idle higher. More fuel alone will not cause the engine to idle higher but will cause it to run rich (gas fumes and smoke). Check all your vacuum lines to see that nothing was left disconnected and check those return lines. If you can disconnect the return line from the TBI unit, you can blow low pressure air through the line and you should hear the gas bubbling in the tank. That will tell you if there is a restriction in the return line. Check these things out and let us know what you find. Good luck!
Al

Falcon50

My software is WinAldl. I don't know how to use Tuner Pro RT. It seems me a little bit difficult. I did'nt find any vacuum hose disconnected. I'll try to reset IAC and to test idle like shop manual says.

I found the problem with the high pressure. On my car, S hoses (fuel return line and canister line) have to be crossed. I reassembled not crossed, and because the vapour restriction at the fuel tank, fuel was not able to return freely in the tank. Now I crossed the lines, the fuel pressure is at 11 PSI. I let the engine runnig to see if it stayed at this pressure, and it stayed. this problem is solved.

I join a photo to explain what I did on my car. I don't know if all the Camaro are like that, but on mine, the solution is to cross the lines. I tried to do like you told me, but I was not able to discern the noise of the bubbles. Also, to check, I blown air slightly in the canister line to the tank with fuel tank cap on, With the pressure, fuel came back by the return line (rubber hose disconnected at the s of the wheel) showing that it's the good line (fuel return line goes until the bottom of the tank, allowing fuel to ascend into the line with air pressure blown in the tank and to go out. Canister line doesn't go to the bottom, it stops at the top. Fuel is not able to go back to the canister line with air pressure blown in the other hose) May be this will help someone who could meet this problem when reassemble the fuel tank on the car. I don't know if I explained well. Please excuse me if not. Not so easy for me to explain all that in English.

Thank you again Al for your help. It's your idea to blow air in the fuel line that helps me to fix the fuel pressure problem. Once again, you are my savior........

I'll tell you what I did to try to adjust idle.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

It's truly good to hear you solved the fuel pressure problem. Now you can get your car tested and enjoy driving it again. Another job well done! I am not familiar with WinALDL so I can't say if there are specific files for each vehicle or how accurate the readings would be, but you did say the engine was running fast. Could be connections at ECM or in the main connectors between the engine and dash harnesses. These problems could be connected to the SES problem you've been having. Now that the major problem is solved, you can work on these problems at your leisure. Get driving that car!
Al

Falcon50

I use WinALDL because you don't need any specific files. All the sensor give goods values with this software except the rpm. The software gives me 1000 rpm and my dashboard 1600. I didn't find yet what il the problem. I tried this, like manual shop says:
Ignition on, engine off. Jump Aldl A to B. Wait 30 seconds until IAC close. Disconnect IAC. Start engine. My engine started at 450 rpm like manual shop says ans run like that until I stopped the engine. I Connected IAC. I started the engine again, and it starts at 450 rpm and slowly, came again to 1600 rpm. Tomorrow, I'll remove the O2 sensor to clean it. When my car was not running well, it ran with bad mixture and may be, it affected the O2 sensor. I'll try it, because now, I don't know what to do.
My car have to run well at idle, because to go to French car control, it must be low to check the pollution. If I don't find the problem, I'll disconnect the IAC, the time to check pollution at control.....
Good evening
Jean Luc

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Jean Luc, for the dash tach reading high see the Electronics board here. This is a common issue with an easy fix (a resistor). The thread is up in the sticky's, it is that common a problem.

RBob.

Falcon50

Hi RBob.
Thank you very much for the information. It's precious for me. I began to read the thread and It seem very easy to fix. I'll do it soon.
Again thank you RBob.

Falcon50

At least I found my problem. I'm going to explain if someone might have the same problem. In fact my car ran well but I did'nt know. Wanting to check the sensors and to see why my tachometer was so hight, I used WinAldl with a laptop and a cabl1 OBD1 ALDL USB(see photo). On the USB side of the cable, there is a jumper on the USB (see other photo). With this jumper, you can put normal mode, shorted A to B mode and 10 K Resistor mode. I read on manual shop that in 10 K Resistor mode, you have access at all the sensors, also I used that mode thinking that it was the best one to check the sensors. But in fact, this mode affect the parameters of the ECM!!! (see photo)
It put closed loop, EST is advanced, P∕N restrict functions are disable, and the more important IAC valve controls engine idle to 1000 rpm!And as my tachometer is not accurate, I had 1600 rpm!
I changed the jumper to normal mode and started the car. It idles at 600 rpm (aldl reading) like it ran before all my problems.
I never tried before to start the car without checking parameters with the lap top in 10K mode. Also idle was always too high. The solution was just to put the jumper in normal mode......
I founded by accident the explanations when I was looking for how to remove O2 sensor......! (see photo)
I hope my stupidity will help someone to avoid that problem of idle
What pleasure to have at least a car running so well. After all this discouragements, all this work and months past trying to find why my car was not running. it's so good to think that I did all that for a good result. I'm very very happy.
I have to test the car on the road. Monday morning I drive the car to inspection at 8 AM, and after that, I'll be able to drive on the road, without fearing the police. I'll tell you in a few days if everything is ok, but my car never ran at idle like it run today. Before, I had idle variation, but now, even not.
Thank you to you all you who had help me. It was very comforting to fell your help in bad times when I had to solve the problems. You are wonderful, and a special thank to Al who helped me so much . You are Great
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

This is some great info for those that might possibly get tripped up by the switch on these cables. I know the 165 ECM needs the 10K resistor to start communications but did not realize any other ECMs needed it or actually used it to go into diagnostic mode. Good information!
Good luck with the "inspection", it sounds as if you will have no problems. Car runs great and that is good to hear. It's always satisfying when you know you helped someone through a problem so, your joy with fixing your car is also joy for those who helped! As always Jean Luc, you are very welcome!
Al

Falcon50

Thank you Al.
After all the help I received, if I can help someone which might have the same problem of high idling in diagnostic mode, it would be fine.
Next steps are to fix the problem of the tachometer and I have too a problem with the oil pressure gage (since a long time). Now I want to put all functional in my Camaro.
I'll post in my car pass the inspection tomorrow.
Jean Luc

Falcon50

I passed the inspection last monday. And nothing was find except minor rust on the front suspension (like was rear suspension before I removed the fuel tank and treat the rust). Nothing wrong with the brakes, suspension, leaks etc.....
The pollution of the car was 1.02 grammes, and in France for this year, we have until..... 3 grammes to be accepted.

The car run great (I tested it on the road now that I can drive with my inspection). A real pleasure to drive after all this problems.

So the problem mentioned at the beginning of this thread about SES Light problem, does not affect in anyway the running of the car.
Now I have to fix the tachometer, and the water gage which are not accurate.
I'll post soon the last videos I did when I remove the fuel pump (how to remove the pump from the tank and to fix the fuel gage sender (which was wrong too) for thoses who may need to know how to do before to do it.

Jean Luc

fokeyman

Good deal! Glad to see you up and running.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

I bet that first drive was really satisfying! Good to hear everything is in order for the inspection, just got to figure out the 2 gauges now.
Al

Falcon50

Thank you Fokeyman

Falcon50

Thank you Al.
Yes it was great to drive again my Camaro. It has been so long.... In two weeks there is a "meeting" of American cars near my home. I'll be able to go driving mine.... Last meeting (in my area) was one month ago and I went to see the cars with a german car . This time it will be different.... Thanks to you

92CAMrod

Hi everyone hope someone can lead me to the right direction. I have a 92 camaro just had distributer, rotor& cap, spark plugs, and wires done, oil change, fuel filter, and car still idles rough as well as surges and stalls at stops. I have also replaced the thermostat,IAC sensor, map, ecs, and still problem continues. I need this car for school and work. Mechanics around me don't want to touch the car so im stuck fixing it myself. Tach is broke but still reacts to the idle surging from high to low. Don't understand the problem. Any solution would be great. At least something to steer me close. Supposedly the mechanic check for vaccum leaks n couldn't find any. I don't think so though to be honest. Im thinking o2 sensor could be the problem as well. Unplugged the ecs car idled a little better so i changed the ecs and still problem continues.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

You should probably start a separate thread for your problem. I would put it in the general engine forum. You also want to give as much info about your car as possible. You state you have a 92 Camaro but what engine, fuel system and is it auto or manual? The more info you provide, the better others will be able to help. For starters, you can check out Chevythunder.com, it has trouble shooting guides and all info on diagnostic codes if you have any. GL and HTH!

Brad Stevenson

I have a 1991 firebird 350 tpi got it back from being SMOG got an engine light driving on freeway turned out to be code 32 egr thing.
Looks like they changed the gas cap on me non vented, now when I opened it pull a vacuum.
This gas cap fixed the problem---note it's vacuum vented lets fresh air in the tank

Type
Pre-Release Fuel Cap
Cam Type
Threaded
Locking
No
Shell Diameter (in)
2.83
Venting
Vacuum Only
Cap Depth (in)
2.3
Neck Diameter (in)
1.81
Manufacturer's Part Number: Gates
31634
Shipping Weight:
0.25
Package Height:
3.1
Package Depth:
3.8
Package Width:
3.5