Falcon50

Hi every body.

I'm from France and I have a 89 camaro 305 TBI.

It does run, and when I try to have code from ses light, it runs ok (I have 3 times code 12) and after when the others codes comes, the ses light become weaken and weaken until I'm not able to read all the codes. At the same time, I can hear relays running in engine compartment

I have the shop manual for my car, but I don't find in it any solution to that problem. Only solution if there is no code 12 or solutions if there is no others code than 12.

Do I have to consider that there is no others codes that 12? Do you have any idea of what could be the problem? Bad ground, serial data wire short to ground or open? ECM? Other?

I thought my battery was weak, but I charge it and same result. I can crank also, it is no a problem of low battery.

Is anyone has an idea? Could you help me? It is difficult to find help in France.

Thank you for your help.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

If your car runs ok and you can flash code 12 (ECM functioning properly) then your ECM and prom are ok. I would check grounds, especially between engine and firewall then check your wire from the SES light back to the ECM. You have the shop manual so you should have all the diagrams, but in case you don't, go to AustinThirdgen.org. HTH!

Falcon50

Hi Bigal55.

Thank you for your answer.

I'm going to check ground between engine and firewall (I did'nt thought to do it) and the wire from ses back light to ECM.

You tell me that the ECM and Prom are ok if the car runs and flashes code 12. But.... my car doen't run....

I came from a run and my car was at idle when I was opening my garage. My car stall and didn't want to start again. Also since, I try to find the problem.

First of all, I found the ses problem above. Also, I'm going to solve the problems one after an other, hoping to find why my car refuse to start.

Thank you for your help. I 'll tell you if I found the problem of ses, before to continue to solve others.

If others persons have ideas for my problems, all are welcome.

Thank to you all, and particularly to Bigal55.

Jean Luc

Falcon50

Hi Bigal55

I check the wire and the ground with firewall and I did'nt find something wrong. Also, now, I began to check all the steps given by shop manual, to find why the engine doesn't start. I hope I'll find something. I ordered a cable to scan code on PC( http://www.aldlcable.com/products/aldlobd1u.asp ) I'll see if I can get the code with this item.

Jean Luc

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

The number 12 means that the ECM is reading properly. Code 12 is a signal that the computer is fine and that it will begin to read the codes now. It will flash 12 again after it has read any other codes. It will always flash 12.

When you say your car will not start, describe that more.

What happens when you turn the key? Does the engine spin at all or does nothing happen at all?

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

OK. I mis-understood you when you said it does run, I guess you meant the SES light flashes. The engine cranks so it is probably not a VATS problem. If you crank the engine over, do you get spark at the spark plugs. You can check this with an extra spark plug. Take the number 1 plug wire off the plug and insert the extra plug into it. Hold the metal part of the plug against the engine and have someone crank the motor over to see if you have spark. Wear a good set of rubber or leather gloves to prevent getting shocked and be sure to hold the spark plug to a good grounding point on the engine. The spark should be easily visible and be a bright blue color. You could use the number 1 plug if you remove it from the engine, that way you don't need an extra and this will give you a chance to see if the plug is wet or dry. This is probably the first thing you should do as the rest of the trouble shooting will either be toward a no fuel problem or a spark/ignition related problem. Let us know what you find. GL!

Falcon50

Thank you to try to help me.
When I turn the key, the starter runs and the engine does 2 or 3 explosions and stall. When I do it again, I have the same result. Nothing more that several explosions and stall. I'm waiting my cable to see if the ECM receive good voltage from sensor test procedure describe in, shop manual. I think that without scan, I can't go ahead. It could be so many origins .......

Falcon50

Yes sorry for bad word but it's a little bit difficult for me to explain in English. You understood well what I wanted to say.
My SES light flashes 3 times code 12 well. But when flashing the followers code, or if it continues to flash again code 12 (after reset for example), the light goes weak and weak, until it doesn't flash even if the code has not flashed completely (for exemple if it flashes code 12, the light can stop flashing after to have done number one of the code).

This makes me thought that there is a problem with the ECM because it unable to flash code 12 until I decide to stop the procedure. It always stop by itself like I describe above.

Thank you for your advice about the sparks. I did'nt do it because the engine "starts" for severals explosions and stall. If there were no sparks, it would not answer. It seems to me that the engine do like if it has no enough fuel to continue to run. I check the fuel pump. The manual shop say it must fill 1/2 pint in 15 seconds and it does. But something I find suspect. When the pump stops, fuel go back to tank. If I well understood shop manual, the fuel link should stay with pressure. Furthermore, I don't have anything to check if the pressure is correct or not. Also, could be this the problem or no run of the engine??? I don't know what to think. What is your tought about that? Do I have to check spark? Do I have to try to check more the fuel pump? If so how, because I have nothing to check the pressure?
Thank you for help. I'm fell so alone here, in France, to solve my problem........As my Camaro was never imported, I can't find in my area a garage who is able to check my car. And electronics problems are so hard to solve, even when garage has the good tools there are not always able to fix the problems...... joy of electronic....
Thank you to you all.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

OK. So the engine sputters when you crank it. Take the air filter off the throttle body so you can see the injectors. Have someone start the car and while the motor is cranking, look down the throttle body at the injector nozzles. You should see fuel being sprayed into the throttle body from both injectors. Have you checked the fuel pressure regulator? If your regulator is just circulating the fuel back to the tank, you will not build pressure to spray from the injectors. Try pinching off the return line from the regulator, thereby stopping fuel from returning to the tank. This will build pressure and maybe allow the engine to run. You won't hurt anything by doing this, it's just that your engine would run a little on the rich side due to the higher pressure. Give this a try and see what happens, let us know. GL!

Falcon50

Some days passed when I post the message. I used them to check the injectors and others. Both of injectors spray well. I made a fuel gauge to test the pressure of fuel line feed. It took me time because the parts we have in France to connect fuel line are not compatible on a US car. I made as I could, but I was able to connect the line and check it. The pressure is ok. I checked too the spark. Here too, it's ok. I found in shop manual something to do if the engine starts and immediately stalls (exactly what my car do); It's to disconnect the set timing connector. If the engine starts and run, I'll must replace distributor pickup coil. I'll try it, and tell you if it is that or not.
But I did'nt find yet why I have the problem with the SES light . May be I'll find it when I'll receive my cable to scan codes. I'll post it when I'll scan.
Thank you for your help. Have a nice day
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

If you have good spray from the injectors I would have to say you have a spark problem. This could be related to the dimming SES light and possibly indicate a bad ECM but more likely a wiring problem. Are you sure you have good grounds all around? Battery to engine block, engine block to firewall, engine harness grounds to engine (back of heads), and ECM case to body ground and the ECM ground wires within the ECM harness connectors. ALL these points need to be tied together through good clean connections at the various points. HTH!


Also, your distributor needs to have a good ground to the engine. This is accomplished with the lock down bolt and clamp around the distributor base. The ICM needs a good ground to the distributor and thus to the engine. This is not the same as the connector ground but the actual ICM body ground to the distributor via the mounting screws.

Falcon50

Hi Bigall55

I tested the ground from battery to engine and engine to firewall. I did it with a tester, to see if electricity goes through. Do you think that I did well? Do I have to remove the connectors, to scratch them and re install, even if the tester find to connection ok?

I didn't check "engine harness grounds to engine (back of heads)". I don't understand where it is. Where is "back of heads"? Is it the front of the car? Head cylinder? If so, witch one? Sorry but it miss me some technical words.

For the ECM case to body, when the I removed the ECM, they was no connector on the case of the ECM. Where can I find the ECM to body? Do you speak about ground connector inside ECM connectors?

I'll check too the ground of the distributor via mounting screws, if I well understood what you told me.

Sorry to not understand well, what you explain to me. I want to thank you a lot for your help and your patience.
Jean Luc

Falcon50

To check the grounds, I found this chart. Do you think that I can use it to check the grounds even if I can't start the engine? I'll try it tomorrow. May be it will help someone.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Please take a look at this site: http://chevythunder.com/
It has a lot of good info and some great trouble shooting info. Read the HEI and ESC sections and at the bottom is a trouble shooting write up on these systems.
The grounds at the back of the cylinder heads I was referring to are present on TPI cars but not sure of TBI. Anyway, the grounds coming out of your engine wiring harness need to be secure.

Falcon50

Hi Bigall55. Yes the TBI have too grounds at the back of head cylinders.

I check the grounds and the + feeds wires. I post too a photo of the bad connection on the + junction . As you can see on the photos, it's not very good.
I check the ground on the engine, on the right fender, and at the back of the back of left head cylinder. I checked the Service Engine Soon light and it does the same.
I was not able to scratch the ground of the back of right head cylinder. And this one is the ground of ECM!!!!
I can touch the nut with my finger, but I can't put a tool to release it and clean the grounds. I tried by the top of the engine, and from below, but impossible to put a tool on the nut.
There is an iron tube which make impossible to put a tool, but this tube too is bolt on the engine with this same nut!!!! I can't see any way to remove this nut, except to .....remove the engine......!
Do you have any idea to be able to remove this nut? Does anyone did it? Please, if you have the solution, tell me how to do.
I looked at the ground with a little mirror, and it seems me in bad condition. May be it's the key of my SES problem and start problem.
Thank you for your help.
Thank you Bigal55 for the link you sent me ( " http://chevythunder.com/ " ). I didn’t had enough time to go to see the website, but I'll do. I passed so much time on my car, trying to solve my problems. And I did make any progress..... It's discouraging........

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
Those connections certainly look bad and need to be cleaned up. As far as the connection on the right side head for ground, that steel tube is just the transmission dip stick tube. You can try bending the mount of the tube where it bolts to the head, just enough to get a socket on the nut. The tube is mounted in the transmission via a rubber grommet so it can move when you bend the upper mount out of the way. Also as stated above, goto the ChevyThunder site and read the HEI/EST section, it will give you some good info. I say this because you are getting a good spray of fuel from your injectors so what you need is the spark to ignite it. Now I'm not saying the connections aren't causing problems, but you can check for distributor problems with the ECM disconnected. This is all explained in the HEI/EST section at ChevyThunder. You need a good blue/white spark to ignite the mixture. Pull your plugs, clean them up and see if you have a good "hot" spark from the plug(s). GL! and be sure to get back, I'm stuck on this until we get it solved!

Falcon50

Hi Bigal55. Thank you for your answers at my posts.
As for the tube I told you, it is not the dip stick of the gear box. I post a photo to show you it. It's bigger than the dip stick. You can see the dip stick just on right of the tube (with a with cloth inside to avoid anything fall into). I think that this tube is part of cooling or heating system. But it is too hard to try to bend it.
Also, as I can't remove the nut and clean the connection, I spray a product to clean electric contact. I tried again my SES light, and after three times of code 12, it continue to be "hill".
I went to the website chevythunder.com (at least ) and I decided to remove and check the distributor and ignition. I had a big surprise!. Look the photos I join to this post.
The pick up coil is completely rusted! When I turn the shaft, I can fell hard points and It hang very much. I join too a photo of the inside cap. here too, you can see some corrosion. I wonder how my car could have sparks on the plug sparks with this system so damaged! I had to check this sooner, as you told me ........ sorry... but as I had sparks, I thought that the ignition was ok.

I don't think that this will solve the problem of the SES light, and I don't know if my car will run, when I"ll fix it, but it's sure that I have to repair that!

For fun I'll test it today with an ohm meter. Now I'm going to order the parts in the US, also it will take several days to see if this is the origin of no start. Can you tell me please the parts I need to order? Is just a pick up coil, or there is others parts I need, except HEI module of course?
Thank you again for your help. I begin to believe that I'll be able to fix my car......

Falcon50

I removed the shaft of the distributor and find one "teeth" broken on the ignition reluctor (should have 4 and there is only 3. I join a photo. I'm going to change all the distributor

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Wow! That sure looks pretty bad. I am now wondering myself how your car ran prior to this problem. Since you are in France and don't have access to parts very easily, I would suggest you keep an extra cap and rotor handy. Change out that distributor and see about getting to that ground connection on the back of the right side head. I realize it will be a while before you get the parts but when you do, get back with the results (hopefully good news!), I'll be waiting. Meanwhile get those connections cleaned up. GL!

Falcon50

Hi Bigal55.
I ordered and received a complete new distributor from Rock Auto .

I installed it on my car and........ it does run ! But, may be it's my fault . I explain. Before to remove the old one, I marked it to help me to install the new one without doing the complete procedure installation. But I think that I didn’t reinstall it like the old one was.
Also, now, my engine even not sputters when I crank it.

So, I have to do the complete procedure by searching the first cylinder compression and put the the finger of the distributor and the right wire on it, and to follow for all the others cylinders.

I think that I'll not be able to do it before two weeks because I have a lot of work to do, but I’ll tell you the results when I'll did it. I hope it will be a good news.......

Jean Luc.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
Good to hear from you again! Glad you found RockAuto for the parts. Hopefully they weren't too expensive to ship! You said it runs, then you say it doesn't even sputter? Anyway, put your timing mark at top dead center. With the distributor cap off, notice the direction the rotor is pointing. If you were to put the cap back on, the rotor should be aligned with the number 1 spark plug wire on the cap. If it is pointed at the number 6 spark plug wire, you need to turn the engine 1 complete revolution. If the rotor is either before or after the number 1 plug wire by a small amount (half way between two plug wires) you will need to pull the distributor up to disengage the distributor from the camshaft gear. Notice as you lift the distributor, the rotor will rotate. You will need to rotate the rotor into a position such that as the distributor is lowered back into the motor, the rotor will turn and align with the number 1 plug wire in the cap. The bottom of the distributor also has to align with the oil pump shaft so once the distributor gear and the cam gear start to mesh, the distributor may not be lined up with the oil pump shaft. Just turn the crankshaft with a socket on the damper bolt until the distributor drops into the pump shaft. Once it sets in, rotate the engine back to top dead center and check that the rotor is truly pointing at the number 1 plug wire. At this point, you should be able to start the motor and time it with a timing light. Remember, when setting base timing, disconnect the timing by-pass connector so the ECM doesn't control the timing. Once set, tighten down the distributor hold down clamp and reconnect the by-pass connector. Good Luck and get back with the GOOD NEWS!


Al

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Jean Luc,
I hope everything is well with you and your family. I heard the terrible news about the terrorist attacks and am saddened by this tragedy. Hopefully this nonsense will stop and France can try to get back to normalcy if possible. I wish you and your family all the best!
AL

Falcon50

Hi Al.

Thank you very much for your message and your concern. All my family is well. My brother in law works at only 500 meters from the place where happened an attack. Happily, he was not in this area when it happened. He is safe and his family too. All the politics, specialists, journalists say that some others attacks will come in France. I'm afraid that we'll have others bad days in the future.......

As for my Camaro, this morning I go back to work on it. I have free time to work on it. I hope that I'll be able to tell you that my Camaro ran.............!

I post news in the day.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Good news! And more good news, I hope!

Falcon50

Hi Al
I haven't a good news about my car..... When I crank it, it starts, runs 2 or 3 seconds and......stall...
Now, since I changed the distributor, it starts every time, runs regularly but not long. I tried, with or without the set timming connector, same result. I tested with a lamp the fuel pomp, and it runs until the engine stall. Same with the injectors. With the computer and WinAldl software, I can see rpm. Also, I think that there are pulses from the pick up coil.

Do you think that the VATS (anti theft) could be the problem? In the shop manual, it seems me that if I can crank, it's that the VATS is ok.

I tried to disconnect TPS and IAC. It seems me that last time I did it, without cranking the engine, I had error code. Now there is nothing. I wonder if my ECM is ok..

This afternoon, I going to try the step 3 of the photo of shop manual I attached (Electronic Spark Timing circuit). I'll see if it's switch because in another part of the manual, they said that if it's not switch, the car can stall. I'll see.....After that, I will not see what I could do.......

I'll let you know.

Jean Luc.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

I guess that's kind of good news, it fires! Being a throttle body, you can see the injectors spraying fuel when the car is running. Look down the throttle body to see if you have good fuel spray. Seems to me that if the engine cranks and fires, the VATS system is not the problem. You still have that fuel pressure gauge setup? What is your fuel pressure when the engine is running and then when it stalls? When it does run for a few seconds, does it idle smoothly or ruff with backfiring? Your well on your way to getting this car running again so keep up the good work and keep safe! GL!
Al

Falcon50

Hi Al.
I saw the injectors, and they spray both well and when the engine stops, there is yet fuel in the TBI. I think that's a firing problem.
I found something surprising. There are two timing marks on the wheel! There are at 5 centimetres from each one. Which one is the good one??? .
I going to try to put the timing on the other mark and see what happen. I have a theory about my problem. Could be the engine starts, and after 400 rpm when it have to go in open loop, it put advance timing, and if it's too much (or even too low), and stall.
I found with tuner pro knocks (too much advance) and the engine is in open loop mode, even when I crank it. On the website http://chevythunder.com/ they said that there is a start mode, and at about 400 rpm, it must goes on open loop mode. And every time it stall when the rpm are between 400 to 600 rpm. Since a long time, I think that this is the root of the problem. But how can I check this and what could be the origin? I think more and more for an ECM problem. But I did'nt have one another to try.
What do you think about all that?
Thank you again for your help. Have a nice day.
Jean Luc

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Note that once above 400 RPM the ECM also takes over the spark advance. Try this: unplug the EST/BYPASS connector and start the engine. Does it now stay running?

RBob.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

As a note, the engine should stay running with the SET TIMING connector un-plugged. This is how you set base timing and the engine should run idle ok. I don't know about the 2 different timing marks on your balancer but 5 cm is a lot of timing. When you try the other timing mark, you will probably have to re-orient the distributor as turning it that much will put the rotor out of phase with the cap (the rotor will not be lined up with the number 1 plug terminal on the cap when at TDC). I spoke about this in post #21. Let us know what you find! GL!

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

As an added note, when the EST is disconnected, the ECM is completely out of the picture and your engine should run without it. The ICM is programmed to run the engine if there is no ECM control. HTH!

Falcon50

Thank you RBob and Al for your advices.
I tried to disconnect the Set Timing connector. But It does the same. Start and stall 2 or 3 seconds later . Also, as there is fuel spray and no EST, I don't understand why it's stall.
Do you think that if I jump A and B pins in the ALDL connector it will change anything or it's the same that disconnecting the Set Timing connector?
The HEI is new (it was with the distributor when I received it) and the pick coil is new and tested. I tested the coil too and it's ok.
I don't know if I'll be able to try tomorrow the other timing mark on the balancer, but Tuesday, I'll do. I'll let you know. I'll do like you told me previously to set 1st cylinder with timing mark.
Again thank you.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hey Jean Luc, if you could, would you attach a picture of your balancer with the 2 timing marks showing? That is very interesting. I have searched around the web and can't find any info on dual timing marks.

Falcon50

Hi Al.
I'll attach a photo of my balancer, but now, it's night and cold, also........
I started my camaro for at least 20 to 30 sec!!!!! After it stalls. But I founded a real problem. To arrive to start the car for 20 sec, I put a lot of advance. Almost 1/4 on my balancer
I understood what is the problem with the marks. The little one was home made. It's now the good one with the Top Dead Center. But when I adjust timing with this mark, the engine start 2 sec and stall.
I checked the valve with the TDC (putting a little rod in chamber). I founded the exhaust valve completely close before TDC the round after ignition. I think that it closes to early and that I have a bad timing with crankshaft and camshaft. Otherwise, why the OEM mark would be bad? It is not possible to put the gearings in bad position due the keys on the axles.
I don't understand how the OEM could be bad, except it the timing chain is not good. I don't understand too how this car could run all this time (I have the car from 10 years without a problem).
So, I decided to go to check the chain timing, also I'll began tomorrow. But the nut in the center of the pulley of the crankshaft seems me to don't what to be removed. Any idea to unlock it? Do I have to unlock clockwise or counter-clockwise? I think it's counter-clockwise. Do you agree?
At least, I found a way to look for. I hope it will be the solution of my problem. I think the the ECM is out of suspicion, because the engine runs for a "long time". I'll see and tell you what I found. I'll take photos too.
Thanks for your help. Good evening.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

The balancer bolt will come out counter-clockwise just like a normal bolt. The balancer is press fit to the crankshaft and you will need a puller to remove it after removing the retaining bolt. The crankshaft bolt is very tight, I think around 80 lb-ft of torque. I would suggest you remove your driver side valve cover and find number 1 TDC. This will be just after the intake valve closes then put the timing mark on TDC. With the engine in this position, remove your distributor cap and see that the rotor is pointing at the number 1 wire on the distributor cap. The distributor is correctly "phased" when the engine is at TDC and the rotor is pointing at the number 1 plug wire (terminal on the cap). If your distributor is out of phase by one tooth on the cam, the rotor will not be lined up with the terminal on the distributor cap causing the spark to have to jump to the terminal. If the spark must jump this gap inside the cap, it will lose a lot of energy and not properly fire the spark plugs, causing hard starting and stalling. You should make sure your distributor is phased correctly before you tear into the front end of the motor, just my opinion. Good luck! Let me know what you find.
Al

Falcon50

Hi Al.
I checked my distributor and it's in line with the cylinder number 1 when the engine is in compression and TDC.
Also, I began to remove the balancer. I had no problem to remove the bolts but now, I have to make a puller. I"ll go tomorrow to make cut a disk in a thick sheet metal with a laser or something like that to fabricate the tool. I'll attach a photo when I did it.
I'll let you know the following of this Camaro "adventure"..........
Have a nice sunday.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
Something just occurred to me when I was thinking of why someone would remark a balancer. There are differences in pre 86 balancers and later 86 and up balancers. The pre 86 balancers had timing marks set for timing tabs that were positioned at about the 2 o'clock position and the 86 and later balancers had the timing marks positioned for a timing tab that would be at the 12 o'clock position. Did the previous owner replace the balancer with one from a pre 86 motor or possibly moved the timing tab to the 2 o'clock position for ease of timing and then re-marked the balancer to accommodate the new position of the timing tab? Is it possible that the balancer outer ring has spun on the hub so it was re-marked to correspond to TDC? Here is a picture of a balancer and it's relationship to the crank and the engine block. Notice the key on the crank is between the 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock position with the engine at TDC. When you line up your timing mark to TDC, does the crank key point between 1 and 2 o'clock? Just trying to figure out the dual marks on your balancer.

Falcon50

Hi Al.
Thank you for this very interesting information. When the engine is at TDC, the remark is at 2 o'clock. But the engine doesn't run when the cylinder #1 is lined with it. In fact the engine "runs" when the timing is at 10 o'clock!
Also, if I understood well what you told me, the engine could be a 86 or pre 86 ? How can I know if the engine is the original or not ? The mark for TDC on the engine block is at 2 o'clock.
Today, I went to cut a sheet metal to make my puller. I had it 2 hours later and for only 6.5 € ! I attach a photo of it. I could not be able to remove the balancer without this tool. It' was a bit difficult to remove even with the tool. I removed too the water pump. Tomorrow I'll remove the cover timing chain and I'll see if there is or not a problem with the timing marks. I hope I'll find something, otherwise, I will not know what to do to repair my Camaro.
I'll let you know. Good evening.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
here is a link to a site where you can check your engine casting numbers to see what you have. It also shows where to look for the numbers. BTW, nice job on the puller, you can't buy a "cheap" puller for that much around here!
http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm

antares57

iTrader: (8)

See the #13 posting on this thread. After you check out the timing chain make sure this didn't happen.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...p-trouble.html

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

This is what happens when the distributor is dropped in and is off by 1 tooth on the cam gear. You can get away with moving the wire on the cap with a modern distributor but this can cause problems with a vacuum advance distributor as the vacuum canister will sometimes hit another engine part, not allowing proper timing adjustments, especially points type distributors. Believe me, BTDT! This is what I was referring to in post #21.

Falcon50

Hi.
Thank you Al and Antares57 for your informations about engine casting numbers and distributor. Al, what does it mean "BTDT? Previously, I'll followed the informations you told me at #21 of this thread, and I had no result.
I removed the timing chain cover, and I found....... nothing. The timing is ok between the crankshaft and the camshaft. The correct mark on the balancer is the OEM one, at 12 o'clock. But the home made mark match with the cover at 2 o'clock. Also with the informations you told me, Al, the cover is from a car before 86. Before to remove the cover, I had tried both marks without result. I'll look at the engine numbers to know is the engine is the original or not.
Also now, I'm waiting for new gaskets from the US. But I'm a bit discouraging because to put the gasket, I have to remove the oil pan, and to remove the oil pan, I have many things to remove. Also, I stopped working on my car, because I have enough to work on it, and to not find what is the problem. Also, I need a break before to reassemble all that.
But I'll be better in a few days and I'll work again on it.
Thank you for your help and support.
I'll give you news.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
First, BTDT stands for Been There, Done That. In other words, I have personally put a distributor in wrong, both 180 degrees out and off by one tooth on the cam gear. I guess it is good that you don't have a timing chain problem, but now you need to re-install the cover. You do not need to completely remove the oil pan, just loosen it enough that the front end will drop down enough to clear the timing chain cover. Don't forget to apply some RTV sealant to the corners of the front seal. I changed a cam in my nephews 87 Iroc and was able to drop the pan enough to get the cover on so I know it can be done. While you have the timing chain cover off, turn the motor over to TDC on the number 1 cylinder (crank sprocket timing dot straight up and cam sprocket timing dot straight up). Now pull the distributor cap off and see where your rotor is pointing (should be pointing at number 1 spark plug wire). If all is good, put timing chain cover on and then the balancer. The timing mark on the balancer should line up with TDC on the timing tab whether the tab is at 12 O'clock (original cover and tab) or 2 O'clock (pre 86 cover and tab). With the engine set up this way, you can be assured you won't have to worry about the phasing of the distributor and can concentrate on other possible causes such as a bad coil or other electronic part, that is if the engine still will not run.
You are right, it is a good idea to take a break from working on the car for a while as it can be very frustrating when no progress seems to be made. Take a break and relax a little, the enthusiasm to get your car running will return and when you do get it running, knowing you did it will be very satisfying. That and the experience and knowledge gained will be well worth the effort. Keep up the good work, but take a break first! Good luck, I look forward to hearing how well your car runs!
Al

Falcon50

Hi Al.
I am back again after a break. I checked the timing. I put the mark of both the sprockets up and put the distributor cap off. And the rotor pointed to cylinder N°1. Ok now I'm sure that the phasing of the distributor is ok. I installed it like you told me, also I thought that it was right. Now I'm really sure. But I wonder why my car didn't run when the timing was ok, and why it "ran" when I turned 90 ° of advance like if it was not in phase. Do you have any idea about that?
Now I have to put on the cover timing chain. I'll do like you explained me. I'll tell you when I did it, and tell you what I'm doing to try to repair my camaro. Do I have to put RTV only on the corners or on all the oil pan gasket? Do I have to degrease before using RTV?
To do a brake helped me to find again the desire to repair my camaro, but now, I don't know where to look for........
Thank you for all the advices you told me. Have a nice day.
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

The new front oil pan seal is rubber and is designed to be compression seal. The ends of the seal where it meets the oil pan rail gaskets needs to get a dab of RTV sealer just to make sure you don't form an oil leak at the mating point. Basically where the 3 surfaces meet (oil pan, engine block and timing cover). Put a small dab on the oil pan side of the seal and clean the oil pan lip where the seal will mate. Let the RTV set for about 30 minutes before assembling the cover. Remember to not disturb the engine so you know it is at TDC. When you put the harmonic balancer back on, check your timing marks to be sure they line up. If they don't, you will need to adjust the pointer until it lines up with the TDC mark on the balancer. Once you are satisfied with the location of the timing mark and the pointer alignment, it will be time to start her up! Hopefully it will run and idle nicely. Don't forget to set your base timing to 6 degrees BTDC. Once set, turn the car off and reconnect the set timing connector (tan/wht wire). GL! Let me know how it goes.
AL

Falcon50

Hi Al.

I achieved to put on the engine my cover timing chain without removing completely the oil pan. Now I reassembled it and my starter too. I have to put on the water pump and the damper. But I have a problem to reassemble the damper, because I can't find in France a threaded rod in American thread to make the tool which screw in the crankshaft. Also could you tell me where I can find a tool of good quality and good price on an American website? I saw one on Amazon, but someone broke it into the crankshaft because poor quality. Also if you can tell me an address, it would be great.
I join some photos of the timing chain with the marks, and the damper with the cover chain (you can see the home made mark lightly shifted with the mark of the damper. I adjusted the rotor of the distributor with the timing mark. All that seems good for you?
I join too a photo of a sleeve to put on the crankshaft. Do I have to put it, even if I hadn’t problem of leak before? Thank you for all.

Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
I hope everyone is well and safe. Yes, everything with the timing marks looks good. Someone replaced the timing cover with a pre 86 and marked the balancer to match the "new" pointer position. That is fine and should not present any problems as long as you are aware of the different marks. As for the repair sleeve, you may or may not need it. Check the crankshaft, where the oil seal would contact it, by rubbing your finger on the area. Do you feel a worn spot like a groove is worn into the crankshaft? If you didn't have a leak before, chances are pretty good you won't have one now, but the new seal may weep a little at first. Be sure to put some oil on the lip of the seal to aid in lubricating the seal until oil splashes onto it when running. For the balancer installation tool, I really don't know of any mail order places that would have a good quality unit as I have never had to purchase one. I am like you and have made my own or borrowed one when available. Maybe someone else will have an idea where you could get one and maybe chime in with some information. Keep up the good work and keep us informed with any progress. Again, feel free to ask any questions. G.L.
Al

Falcon50

Hi Al.
After a long time, I went working again on my camaro. I reinstalled the damper and all parts removed. For the damper, I used a bolt (sended by a friend) completely inserted in the crankshaft and a nut with washers to tighten the damper right in its place.I checked the distributor with the mark timing on the damper. And I cranked the engine.
But..... it starts 4 or 5 seconds and stall. And every time I crank it starts and stalls. Accidentally, I disconnected the map sensor from the TBI unit. And when the map is disconnected, the engine runs well for 40/45 seconds but not at idle. At idle it stall, but if I throttle around 2000 rpm, it runs regularly for 45 sec, accelerate and stall.
I don't understand why it runs longer when the map is disconnected, and I don't understand too why it doesn' t idle and stall.
I'm going to check again the fuel pomp pressure and the fuel regulator.
What do you think about all that? Do you have any idea of what could be the problem?
The ECM seems to run well even if there is the problem with the SES light. When the map and EST were disconnected, the ECM gave me two errors code about map and EST (seen with the computer).
In fact, I realise that the problem of my car is the same when it falls out of order. The day when it's happen, the symptoms where the same like today. I thought that it was a problem with the distributor, seen it's state (and it needed to be changed) but nothing changed with the problem of the beginning. Also, I have to look for another cause.
I'll tell you what I do, and if I find something or not. Will I find what is the problem????
Jean Luc

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Hi Jean Luc,
Good to hear you got the balancer back on and you can start the engine again. We are back at the beginning again with the stalling problem. Your distributor definitely needed to be changed so that's done and good. Now we can investigate other areas that may cause this problem. First, you should check your TPS (throttle position sensor) for proper function and make sure all the connections are good. I believe the TPS and the Map sensor share the same 5 volt reference from the ECM so check the reference voltage at the TPS with the Map sensor connected and then disconnected. I recall a thread on these forums a little while back that the poster had a similar problem and found the Map sensor was pulling the 5 volt reference down and causing problems with the engine idling. Your SES light being dim could be a wiring problem with the ECM ground circuit as discussed earlier in this thread or just bad connections somewhere in the circuit. These things need to be checked. Using an ohm meter is good but sometimes you need to look at voltages to determine problem areas. You can turn the key to "on" and use battery negative for ground reference and check the various sensors and 5 volt reference points to be sure you don't have a voltage drop across a wire or connection somewhere. Chevythunder and Austinthirdgen have wiring diagrams and troubleshooting charts to aid in the diagnosis. Do some checks and let us know what you find. GL!
AL

fokeyman

iac/tps fyi

Falcon50

Hi Al and Fokeyman. Thank you for your help. Fokeyman, I undestood what your wrote (iac/tps) but I don't understand what is fyi. Can you explain please? Thank you.

As for you Al, I checked the voltage of sensors by computer with ALDL. I did it too using pins in the wires to check voltage with volt meter. All was correct but I'm going to do it again, and see what happen when the engine runs and when I connect or disconnect the map. Yesterday, I tried to disconnect the wire of the map sensor. I read in the shop manual that when the map is disconnected, they is a back up system and the ECM use TPS to make the mixture air/gas. This changed nothing and the idle runs only for four or five seconds.
I'm going to order a pressure gage for fuel because mine is not enough accurate. It begins at 50 psi and I have to check fuel pressure between 9 to 13 PSI and where I live, I can't find a gage of that scale in an affordable price. Also, it will take a few days to receive it. I want to check too the fuel filter. But for that I have to pull my car out of the garage because it's too small to be able to reach the back of the car. But my garage is a little bit in slope, so I have to use a winch to pull it out, because the car is too heavy to push it out with my wife. As you can see, nothing is simple for me. Happily, I love American cars, and I want absolutely to repair my Camaro and drive it again. Otherwise, I could put it on fire .....lol
See you next chapter.......