My 411 pcm swap
04-26-2016, 08:03 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
My 411 pcm swap
So my 165 finally gave up the ghost, I had been planning the 411 pcm swap for about a year, and it only seemed like fate I should go ahead and jump in. It was a tough project, but I learned a lot doing it, and the rewards were more than worth it.
A big help for me was the pinouts, links listed below, I printed them out and used them all throughout this process.
I started with the harness. This was the toughest part of the project and a majority of the work involved. I read everything I could find on here and countless other forums to absorb as much as I could. I had read that the Silverado truck harness was too short, so I headed out to the local junkyard and picked up two truck harness with the intent of combining them to get the length I needed. One happened to be a DBW harness and the other a drive by cable, but most of the connectors interchanged. I also cut out a OBD2 aldl port as far in as I could. Also I picked up a 411 computer out of a 2001 GMC Yukon V8 drive by cable truck. (there were about 5 411 pcms in the yard from various cars). They only charged me for one harness and one PCM 80 bucks. They came with all of the sensors and coils.
I got home and took all of the tape and the protective coating off of the harness cutting all of the connectors out at the PCM (for the longest length) labeling which pins they came from.
I then took the other harness (DBC) and stripped it down. The main pain came from the common grounds which I just ended up cutting. I taped the wires together for each sensor connector all the way back to the PCM. I took out all of the uneccesary connectors using the pcm pinouts from the lt1411 swap page (link below). This cut down the haress to the basics (ECT, Knock Sensors, o2s, Maf/IAC sensor, MAP sensor, coils and injectors, TPS, IAC, VSS and cam/crank sensor connectors). I also left in the AC wires just taping them up for later, and the Tach wire.
I pulled out my factory engine side of the harness (left the headlight side in the car) and brought them both in my living room and took everything I didn't need out of it. Mostly just took out MAF wiring/relays and associated wiring, Distributor/ECT wiring (left the big pink wire to use later) o2 sensor. I cut the Knock sensor connector out to slice into the ls harness.
Very important I left intact was the common power to the fuel injectors, the common negative going back to the computer was cut where they all connected.
The alternator connector was left intact, but the brown wire had to be run through and connected to the brown wire under the passenger size dash into the C207 connector. The alternator will not charge without this wire connected. This wire ultimately goes to the fan fuse in the fuse box.
While laying the harnesses side by side it occured to me the truck harness was MORE than long enough, and even some of the sensors were too long.
I soldered the ignition coil pink wires, and the heated o2 pink wires into the original pink coil wire. The injector common 12v went into the original 12volt harness so the original fuses whould be used. I also did this for the ECM wire, running the three pinks from the 411 into the original PCM power wire. It was awesome the colors matched up between the two harnesses! I ran the three 411 12v orange wires to an orange wire on the original harness, and the same with the three grounds bolted to the back of the block.
The Coils and O2's also had grounds that had to be spliced into grounds on the back of the block.
I did have to extend the driver's side coil connector, and just used the spare one I had because the computer is on the wrong side on the trucks.
The MAF/IAC wire is a little long and I may shorten it later but it works for the time being.
The 411 truck has two knock sensors, so I had to get another connector and both knock sensors from 02 chevy express, both acquired at autozone around the corner. The thread is the same as the L98 block. There is a plug that has to be removed out of the drivers side of the block in the same location as the knock sensor on the passenger side to add the extra knock sensor. They were soldered into the two wires from the 411 harness.
All of the injector wires I had labeled, and simply soldered them into the original injector harness to their correct injectors.
As you probably know you do have to swap injectors and coil wires for 2&3 and 4&7. Also you have to swap two pins (a&c) for the crank sensor. I did this all at the pcm connector, which was so easy to swap the pins. Simply use a small screwdriver pulling off the red or blue connector by pushing in the pins on each side and then sliding the screwdriver in between the pin and the white tab and lift up slightly on the pin and push it out. They just slide back in and snap in place. It takes a few to get the hang of it, but it is so easy now. This is where you will need your 411 pinout.
I had a spare vortec distributor from another build and happened to have the connector for the cam sensor. The 411 ls harness cam sensor connector is different than the vortec cam sensor so the vortec connector will have to be spliced in. I just compared the 411 pinout wires to the vortec connector and soldered the right wires in the right spot.
The TPS and IAC TPI connectors also have to be spliced into the 411 truck harness as the LS ones are different, but the wires swap right over comparing the 411 pinout to the 165 pinout.
I ran the VSS to the T56 and ran the 4000k output to my sgi-5e box which is running my speedo, and eventually my factory cruise.
The OBD2 connector fit in the factory location, with the factory 7mm screws!. There is only 3 wires required, one going to the serial connector from the PCM (green), power and ground (two grounds spliced together. I simply found 12v and ground on the c207 (passenger side under dash) and two wires that ran from the c207 to the obd 1 and spliced them together in the right spots.
I have an expensive double roller, and I didn't want to swap it out for a single roller so I had to get a new timing cover from EFI Connection, along with their crank reluctor and sensor. Turns out the sensor is just a 02 5.7 express crank sensor, but EFI connection was actually cheaper than Autozone, and it came with the kit. If you have a single roller I understand you can use a factory Vortec timing cover with a liberal amount of RTV. The pieces from them were really nice and the CNC machining timing cover is beautiful, too bad you really can't see it with everything in place. I bought a new balancer from Autozone.
Setting the timing on the distributor is actually not as big of a deal. From talking back and forth with EFI technical support it just has to be reasonably close because it's not really controlling the timing, just telling the PCM if its on the intake or exhaust stroke. I had it unplugged for a while and it still started and ran. Instructions are included with the EFI connections never the less. You can also find timing instructions online for l31 vortec cars.
I used the original 165 ecm tan plastic bracket and zip tied it to the 411 pcm and it fit perfectly under the dash using the original 7mm screws.
For the coils, I just used the original truck brackets and just zip tied them to the fuel rails. Eventually I am going to do some sort of remote coil setup, but this works great for the time being. I used an old set of vortec spark plug wires
I had and just shortened them so they are tight and don't move around on the headers. I used a cheap MSD crimper and a set of needle nose.
I am not using a MAF right now, and have ordered a 4 to 3.5 inch silicone coupler to hook up the ls maf in the factor maf location. I am going to try to hook it into the factory Iroc air intake (probably with another coupler).
For the tune I am using HP tuners, I just disabled the VATS and the car started right up on the original Yukon tune. I tried copying the only Vortec 411 tune in the repository, but it ran like crap, so I just started working with the Yukon VE tables, I did copy the timing advance table though. I also copied the Knock sensor setting over from the Vortec tune.
I had to do a transmission segment swap from an 01 Silverado manual transmission tune from the repository because the Yukon had an automatic originally. The original didn't keep it from running even though I pulled all of the transmission wires out of the harness.
I had the fans wired into the PCM but had to hook them back up to a fan switch because there was no way to do a segement swap for the fans for this OS, and it just constantly grounded the fan switching the fans on in the os.
At idle it is a totally different sound than with the 165 PCM. I spent a lot of time tuning the idle with the 165 and it always ran rich even messing with the o2 constants never cured it. With this PCM there is much less gas smell at idle.
Driving around I don't smell when I get out anymore. I had been using a wideband, and tuned in the WOT in about 15 minutes using the PE table, and the top end of the VE table dialed in between 12.5 and 13.0. She runs about as good as the 165 but it will be hard to tell until I get to the track.
Even though I really haven't gotten into dialing the under WOT tune in (majority of the work) it already runs arms and legs better than I ever had with the 165 (had 2 years into my tune with it). I noticed it will lean out hardcore at highway speeds (highway mode) sometimes 18 to 19 to 1 and doesn't have any bucking. It also starts up really easy, and feels like a stock tpi even with my cam (xfi280)
EFI connections has helped me all along the way and answered so many of my questions, some late at night and early in the morning. I have been impressed with them and am so happy I jumped in on this project. Here are some links I used along the way.
The main 411 pinout
http://www.lt1swap.com/99-02_vortec_pcm.htm
This has the wiring harness pinouts, and the c100 (drivers main connector) and the c207 (under the passenger dash)
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/?pid=19
L31 vortec pinout
http://lt1swap.com/1996_vortec_5.7/index.htm
Parts rundown
Silverado harness + computer ($80)
Vortec spark plug wires (had them)
Vortec distributor/cam sensor connector (had it in my junk pile)
EFI connections double roller timing chain cover, crank reluctor/sensor ($450)
Vortec harmonic balancer (Autozone $46)
HP tuners ($100 for license the computer had HP tuners already)
Knock sensors + one connector (Autozone $50)
A big help for me was the pinouts, links listed below, I printed them out and used them all throughout this process.
I started with the harness. This was the toughest part of the project and a majority of the work involved. I read everything I could find on here and countless other forums to absorb as much as I could. I had read that the Silverado truck harness was too short, so I headed out to the local junkyard and picked up two truck harness with the intent of combining them to get the length I needed. One happened to be a DBW harness and the other a drive by cable, but most of the connectors interchanged. I also cut out a OBD2 aldl port as far in as I could. Also I picked up a 411 computer out of a 2001 GMC Yukon V8 drive by cable truck. (there were about 5 411 pcms in the yard from various cars). They only charged me for one harness and one PCM 80 bucks. They came with all of the sensors and coils.
I got home and took all of the tape and the protective coating off of the harness cutting all of the connectors out at the PCM (for the longest length) labeling which pins they came from.
I then took the other harness (DBC) and stripped it down. The main pain came from the common grounds which I just ended up cutting. I taped the wires together for each sensor connector all the way back to the PCM. I took out all of the uneccesary connectors using the pcm pinouts from the lt1411 swap page (link below). This cut down the haress to the basics (ECT, Knock Sensors, o2s, Maf/IAC sensor, MAP sensor, coils and injectors, TPS, IAC, VSS and cam/crank sensor connectors). I also left in the AC wires just taping them up for later, and the Tach wire.
I pulled out my factory engine side of the harness (left the headlight side in the car) and brought them both in my living room and took everything I didn't need out of it. Mostly just took out MAF wiring/relays and associated wiring, Distributor/ECT wiring (left the big pink wire to use later) o2 sensor. I cut the Knock sensor connector out to slice into the ls harness.
Very important I left intact was the common power to the fuel injectors, the common negative going back to the computer was cut where they all connected.
The alternator connector was left intact, but the brown wire had to be run through and connected to the brown wire under the passenger size dash into the C207 connector. The alternator will not charge without this wire connected. This wire ultimately goes to the fan fuse in the fuse box.
While laying the harnesses side by side it occured to me the truck harness was MORE than long enough, and even some of the sensors were too long.
I soldered the ignition coil pink wires, and the heated o2 pink wires into the original pink coil wire. The injector common 12v went into the original 12volt harness so the original fuses whould be used. I also did this for the ECM wire, running the three pinks from the 411 into the original PCM power wire. It was awesome the colors matched up between the two harnesses! I ran the three 411 12v orange wires to an orange wire on the original harness, and the same with the three grounds bolted to the back of the block.
The Coils and O2's also had grounds that had to be spliced into grounds on the back of the block.
I did have to extend the driver's side coil connector, and just used the spare one I had because the computer is on the wrong side on the trucks.
The MAF/IAC wire is a little long and I may shorten it later but it works for the time being.
The 411 truck has two knock sensors, so I had to get another connector and both knock sensors from 02 chevy express, both acquired at autozone around the corner. The thread is the same as the L98 block. There is a plug that has to be removed out of the drivers side of the block in the same location as the knock sensor on the passenger side to add the extra knock sensor. They were soldered into the two wires from the 411 harness.
All of the injector wires I had labeled, and simply soldered them into the original injector harness to their correct injectors.
As you probably know you do have to swap injectors and coil wires for 2&3 and 4&7. Also you have to swap two pins (a&c) for the crank sensor. I did this all at the pcm connector, which was so easy to swap the pins. Simply use a small screwdriver pulling off the red or blue connector by pushing in the pins on each side and then sliding the screwdriver in between the pin and the white tab and lift up slightly on the pin and push it out. They just slide back in and snap in place. It takes a few to get the hang of it, but it is so easy now. This is where you will need your 411 pinout.
I had a spare vortec distributor from another build and happened to have the connector for the cam sensor. The 411 ls harness cam sensor connector is different than the vortec cam sensor so the vortec connector will have to be spliced in. I just compared the 411 pinout wires to the vortec connector and soldered the right wires in the right spot.
The TPS and IAC TPI connectors also have to be spliced into the 411 truck harness as the LS ones are different, but the wires swap right over comparing the 411 pinout to the 165 pinout.
I ran the VSS to the T56 and ran the 4000k output to my sgi-5e box which is running my speedo, and eventually my factory cruise.
The OBD2 connector fit in the factory location, with the factory 7mm screws!. There is only 3 wires required, one going to the serial connector from the PCM (green), power and ground (two grounds spliced together. I simply found 12v and ground on the c207 (passenger side under dash) and two wires that ran from the c207 to the obd 1 and spliced them together in the right spots.
I have an expensive double roller, and I didn't want to swap it out for a single roller so I had to get a new timing cover from EFI Connection, along with their crank reluctor and sensor. Turns out the sensor is just a 02 5.7 express crank sensor, but EFI connection was actually cheaper than Autozone, and it came with the kit. If you have a single roller I understand you can use a factory Vortec timing cover with a liberal amount of RTV. The pieces from them were really nice and the CNC machining timing cover is beautiful, too bad you really can't see it with everything in place. I bought a new balancer from Autozone.
Setting the timing on the distributor is actually not as big of a deal. From talking back and forth with EFI technical support it just has to be reasonably close because it's not really controlling the timing, just telling the PCM if its on the intake or exhaust stroke. I had it unplugged for a while and it still started and ran. Instructions are included with the EFI connections never the less. You can also find timing instructions online for l31 vortec cars.
I used the original 165 ecm tan plastic bracket and zip tied it to the 411 pcm and it fit perfectly under the dash using the original 7mm screws.
For the coils, I just used the original truck brackets and just zip tied them to the fuel rails. Eventually I am going to do some sort of remote coil setup, but this works great for the time being. I used an old set of vortec spark plug wires
I had and just shortened them so they are tight and don't move around on the headers. I used a cheap MSD crimper and a set of needle nose.
I am not using a MAF right now, and have ordered a 4 to 3.5 inch silicone coupler to hook up the ls maf in the factor maf location. I am going to try to hook it into the factory Iroc air intake (probably with another coupler).
For the tune I am using HP tuners, I just disabled the VATS and the car started right up on the original Yukon tune. I tried copying the only Vortec 411 tune in the repository, but it ran like crap, so I just started working with the Yukon VE tables, I did copy the timing advance table though. I also copied the Knock sensor setting over from the Vortec tune.
I had to do a transmission segment swap from an 01 Silverado manual transmission tune from the repository because the Yukon had an automatic originally. The original didn't keep it from running even though I pulled all of the transmission wires out of the harness.
I had the fans wired into the PCM but had to hook them back up to a fan switch because there was no way to do a segement swap for the fans for this OS, and it just constantly grounded the fan switching the fans on in the os.
At idle it is a totally different sound than with the 165 PCM. I spent a lot of time tuning the idle with the 165 and it always ran rich even messing with the o2 constants never cured it. With this PCM there is much less gas smell at idle.
Driving around I don't smell when I get out anymore. I had been using a wideband, and tuned in the WOT in about 15 minutes using the PE table, and the top end of the VE table dialed in between 12.5 and 13.0. She runs about as good as the 165 but it will be hard to tell until I get to the track.
Even though I really haven't gotten into dialing the under WOT tune in (majority of the work) it already runs arms and legs better than I ever had with the 165 (had 2 years into my tune with it). I noticed it will lean out hardcore at highway speeds (highway mode) sometimes 18 to 19 to 1 and doesn't have any bucking. It also starts up really easy, and feels like a stock tpi even with my cam (xfi280)
EFI connections has helped me all along the way and answered so many of my questions, some late at night and early in the morning. I have been impressed with them and am so happy I jumped in on this project. Here are some links I used along the way.
The main 411 pinout
http://www.lt1swap.com/99-02_vortec_pcm.htm
This has the wiring harness pinouts, and the c100 (drivers main connector) and the c207 (under the passenger dash)
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/?pid=19
L31 vortec pinout
http://lt1swap.com/1996_vortec_5.7/index.htm
Parts rundown
Silverado harness + computer ($80)
Vortec spark plug wires (had them)
Vortec distributor/cam sensor connector (had it in my junk pile)
EFI connections double roller timing chain cover, crank reluctor/sensor ($450)
Vortec harmonic balancer (Autozone $46)
HP tuners ($100 for license the computer had HP tuners already)
Knock sensors + one connector (Autozone $50)
04-26-2016, 09:27 PM
#2
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Here's some pics I saved along the way.
Starting with truck harness getting washed in the driveway.
Next both harness's stripped
Timing cover installed
OBD 2 connector in factory location
Harness first laid in the engine compartment
harness getting wrapped in protectors
Balancers sided by side
411 pulled through stock location
C207 connector with splicing I did
At the last NTTGA meet
Balancer and pulley on
Starting with truck harness getting washed in the driveway.
Next both harness's stripped
Timing cover installed
OBD 2 connector in factory location
Harness first laid in the engine compartment
harness getting wrapped in protectors
Balancers sided by side
411 pulled through stock location
C207 connector with splicing I did
At the last NTTGA meet
Balancer and pulley on
10-02-2016, 12:34 AM
#3
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Nice write up. I just started tuning my newer trucks with hp tuners and now really want to do the conversion on my camaro.
10-02-2016, 09:17 AM
#4
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Car: 1988 IROC Camaro (RHD)
Engine: 350 ci L98 SBC
Transmission: T700
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt BW, Disk, Posi-traction
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Appreciate the write up.
How does it drive now?
How does it drive now?
10-03-2016, 03:57 PM
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Thanks guys! I didn't think anybody saw my post.
Just an update, I did the long haul on the Hot Rod Power Tour this year. The 200,000 mile L98 did good until I ran it out of oil on the way back.
The best mpg I got was 27, on the way on the first leg of the trip. I ran two bottles of nitrous through it, on a 125 shot. The drive-ability was excellent, through rain storms, temps over 105 degrees. My buddy in his built LS3 fourth gen had more problems than I did.
On the way home she sprung an oil leak, and I ran it low on oil, frying one of my rod bearings. She made the 4 hour trip from OKC back to Dallas knocking the whole way. I also had 3 bent push rods, two of them with the tips broke off.
I just finished building a 4 bolt 383 this weekend and hopefully drop it in next weekend. I am hoping for 30 mpg with this 383 after extensive tuning, I will keep ya'll updated.
As far as tuning I learned tuning WOT with PE is not the right way to do it (way I tuned the old 165 maf setup). Tuning the VE tables is the way to go.
I did take it to the track during the Thirdgen Roundup this year (we had a track rented). She was actually a little slower than with the 165 tune I had, but I attributed it to the tune (and potential valve train problems) as I noticed it was leaning out above 5000 rpms. It still clicked off 82 mph (was trapping 85mph before) in the 1/8th. On a 90 shot I was trapping 89.
Just an update, I did the long haul on the Hot Rod Power Tour this year. The 200,000 mile L98 did good until I ran it out of oil on the way back.
The best mpg I got was 27, on the way on the first leg of the trip. I ran two bottles of nitrous through it, on a 125 shot. The drive-ability was excellent, through rain storms, temps over 105 degrees. My buddy in his built LS3 fourth gen had more problems than I did.
On the way home she sprung an oil leak, and I ran it low on oil, frying one of my rod bearings. She made the 4 hour trip from OKC back to Dallas knocking the whole way. I also had 3 bent push rods, two of them with the tips broke off.
I just finished building a 4 bolt 383 this weekend and hopefully drop it in next weekend. I am hoping for 30 mpg with this 383 after extensive tuning, I will keep ya'll updated.
As far as tuning I learned tuning WOT with PE is not the right way to do it (way I tuned the old 165 maf setup). Tuning the VE tables is the way to go.
I did take it to the track during the Thirdgen Roundup this year (we had a track rented). She was actually a little slower than with the 165 tune I had, but I attributed it to the tune (and potential valve train problems) as I noticed it was leaning out above 5000 rpms. It still clicked off 82 mph (was trapping 85mph before) in the 1/8th. On a 90 shot I was trapping 89.
10-03-2016, 08:19 PM
#6
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I'm debating whether or not to do coil per cylinder or go with the 01-02 chevy express tune that lets you use a distributor.
Do you have any suggestions or advice?
Do you have any suggestions or advice?
10-03-2016, 08:50 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I thought the cnp was kind of cool, and plan on hiding the coils/wires on the underside ofthe block.
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10-03-2016, 09:35 PM
#8
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Something I have been kicking around doing myself. Need to just step it up.
10-04-2016, 07:08 PM
#9
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Thats a cool idea to hide the coils and wires. It would look really clean.
Do you remember off hand what sensors you had to replace/update to work with the 411? I am just debating buying a truck harness vs a couple of sensors and pigtails.
Do you remember off hand what sensors you had to replace/update to work with the 411? I am just debating buying a truck harness vs a couple of sensors and pigtails.
10-04-2016, 08:55 PM
#10
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Well I kind of grafted the two harnesses together. I thought about just adding the extra stuff to the tpi harness: crank sensor, 1 extra knock sensor, different maf connector, map sensor (not necessary if ur coming from 730), cam sensor, coil harnesses, rewire fuel injectors. The problem is the pins dont transfer over to the harness that plugs into the 411 computer. You can buy the pins and crimp all of them over, just seemed more difficult. Also there's a lot you take out of the tpi harness. MAF relays, esc, distributor wires, emmisions.
Last edited by irocman7; 11-21-2016 at 03:42 PM.
11-16-2016, 08:29 PM
#11
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I'm trying to plan this all out before I rip out the harness. What did you have to add on top of the all of the sensor stuff? I'm talking like additional relays, additional battery power to anything or ignition power.
Did you get your ac to work? if so, what did it take.
Also what did it take to get your gauges working?
Did you get your ac to work? if so, what did it take.
Also what did it take to get your gauges working?
11-21-2016, 03:35 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I'm trying to plan this all out before I rip out the harness. What did you have to add on top of the all of the sensor stuff? I'm talking like additional relays, additional battery power to anything or ignition power.
Did you get your ac to work? if so, what did it take.
Also what did it take to get your gauges working?
Did you get your ac to work? if so, what did it take.
Also what did it take to get your gauges working?
Battery power I just hooked into the existing wiring harness, getting creative when it came to gauge and fuse size. For instance the pink power wire that went to the tpi coil now was the power wires for the coils, and o2 sensors.
Injector power is the same as factory, and not altered at all.
There was a smaller gauge pink wire found somewhere that I soldered all of the pink PCM wires into.
There was a big red cluster of wires coming from the starter that I spliced all the 12v constant for the PCM into. It really makes since once you dig in.
AC is still under the engineering phase. It works now with a fan switch on the dash I just have to remember to flip on when I flip the AC on. The factory harness doesn't use the ECM for much except to idle it up a bit (I connected the wire into the PCM, but I don't think it does anything). I have the factory cycle and low pressure switch still hooked up. If I was still using the factory R4 compressor I could use the high pressure switch but I upgraded to a sanden unit, which doesn't have the built in high pressure switch, so it is just grounded (kind of scary). Eventually I am going try to adapt the fourth gen pressure switch in, so I can use all of the AC functions of the 411, and add in a relay that will flip on the fans when the AC comes on.
I am running a Intellitronix gauge cluster, which reads the tach output from the 411 just fine, after adjusting it in HPtuners. The t56 speed output goes through the 411 into a Dakota Digital box for the speedo, works great. Everything else is externally monitored and does not go through the pcm.
I would have liked to see if I could adapt the factory tach, and think it could have been done, but mine was fried.
11-21-2016, 04:02 PM
#13
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Thanks.
I've got all the pinouts done on paper and am about ready to go. I'll let you know where it goes with the tach. I'm definately gonna get it working one way or another.
In my 92 it looks like there are 2 battery wires and 2 ignition wires already there which is all that I thought the 411 needed.
I'm also going to attemp to keep the VATS. From what I can tell all it needs from the pcm is a 5v reference which the 411 can give. Im gonna put F10 (cranking fuel enable signal) to Blue 45 which is the 5v signal from the 411.
Did you have any clearance issues with the coil packs and the AC unit? I'm using the same coils you did and I have already bought the coil brackets from EFI connection to make them work. I have read that some guys have had issues.
I've got all the pinouts done on paper and am about ready to go. I'll let you know where it goes with the tach. I'm definately gonna get it working one way or another.
In my 92 it looks like there are 2 battery wires and 2 ignition wires already there which is all that I thought the 411 needed.
I'm also going to attemp to keep the VATS. From what I can tell all it needs from the pcm is a 5v reference which the 411 can give. Im gonna put F10 (cranking fuel enable signal) to Blue 45 which is the 5v signal from the 411.
Did you have any clearance issues with the coil packs and the AC unit? I'm using the same coils you did and I have already bought the coil brackets from EFI connection to make them work. I have read that some guys have had issues.
11-21-2016, 07:55 PM
#14
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Thanks.
I've got all the pinouts done on paper and am about ready to go. I'll let you know where it goes with the tach. I'm definately gonna get it working one way or another.
In my 92 it looks like there are 2 battery wires and 2 ignition wires already there which is all that I thought the 411 needed.
I'm also going to attemp to keep the VATS. From what I can tell all it needs from the pcm is a 5v reference which the 411 can give. Im gonna put F10 (cranking fuel enable signal) to Blue 45 which is the 5v signal from the 411.
Did you have any clearance issues with the coil packs and the AC unit? I'm using the same coils you did and I have already bought the coil brackets from EFI connection to make them work. I have read that some guys have had issues.
I've got all the pinouts done on paper and am about ready to go. I'll let you know where it goes with the tach. I'm definately gonna get it working one way or another.
In my 92 it looks like there are 2 battery wires and 2 ignition wires already there which is all that I thought the 411 needed.
I'm also going to attemp to keep the VATS. From what I can tell all it needs from the pcm is a 5v reference which the 411 can give. Im gonna put F10 (cranking fuel enable signal) to Blue 45 which is the 5v signal from the 411.
Did you have any clearance issues with the coil packs and the AC unit? I'm using the same coils you did and I have already bought the coil brackets from EFI connection to make them work. I have read that some guys have had issues.
The coil packs fit okay on top the valvecovers but were rubbing the wires, and scratching the valve covers. I created a bracket with some steel, cut coil brackets in half and welded them in a square config, see pics below. Also mounted my nitrous solenoids too.
11-23-2016, 11:58 PM
#15
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Car: '84 Z28
Engine: '02 LS1
Transmission: '02 T56
Axle/Gears: LS1 10-bolt 3.73 w/Auburn Pro
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I love the idea of running a '411 PCM on a Gen1 SBC! It's amazing how much better the '411 drives than the old PCMs on an identical engine.
Are you tuning with HPTuners? I think I know how to get your fans working. I'm pretty sure EFILive has these settings as well.
These screenshots are from a 2000 Tahoe '411 PCM, stock tune except for the red cells I changed for these shots. As you can see, this was a mechanical fan truck since the temps are all at 284*. This PCM is now running a 5.3 in an '87 Formula with a two-speed fan successfully. I also have a P59 '05 Express van PCM in my '85 C10 with an LS swap and I got the fan with both speeds working with the same method.
First, set the "Fan Type" setting to "2 Fans".
Next, on the A/C page you need to change "Recirculation Fitted" to "Fan #2". Some trucks with mechanical fans had a recirculation control to use when the head pressure in the A/C was too high in warm weather since the PCM can't activate the fan to cool the condenser on a clutch fan truck. The pin on the PCM that controls fan #2 is shared between these two functions.
Oh yeah, in reference to the tach question, an LSx PCM will drive a tach but by default the output is the same pulse as a 4-cylinder. It can be changed in the tune to match a 6-cyl or 8-cyl tach though. Also, some PCMs lack a pullup resistor on the tach output so you have to add a 10k resistor from the output to a +12v source to pullup the signal and drive the tach. My Z28 with an '02 Camaro PCM does not need a pullup, but my truck with an '05 P59 Express van PCM does.
Are you tuning with HPTuners? I think I know how to get your fans working. I'm pretty sure EFILive has these settings as well.
These screenshots are from a 2000 Tahoe '411 PCM, stock tune except for the red cells I changed for these shots. As you can see, this was a mechanical fan truck since the temps are all at 284*. This PCM is now running a 5.3 in an '87 Formula with a two-speed fan successfully. I also have a P59 '05 Express van PCM in my '85 C10 with an LS swap and I got the fan with both speeds working with the same method.
First, set the "Fan Type" setting to "2 Fans".
Next, on the A/C page you need to change "Recirculation Fitted" to "Fan #2". Some trucks with mechanical fans had a recirculation control to use when the head pressure in the A/C was too high in warm weather since the PCM can't activate the fan to cool the condenser on a clutch fan truck. The pin on the PCM that controls fan #2 is shared between these two functions.
Oh yeah, in reference to the tach question, an LSx PCM will drive a tach but by default the output is the same pulse as a 4-cylinder. It can be changed in the tune to match a 6-cyl or 8-cyl tach though. Also, some PCMs lack a pullup resistor on the tach output so you have to add a 10k resistor from the output to a +12v source to pullup the signal and drive the tach. My Z28 with an '02 Camaro PCM does not need a pullup, but my truck with an '05 P59 Express van PCM does.
12-09-2016, 10:40 AM
#16
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mesa, Az
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Yes im using HP Tuners. Thats great info Alphius thanks! Ive got a pcm out of an 02 silverado so I'll do exactly what you are showing.
I just got the 4l60e done and have everything I think I need to do this project. So it will begin shortly! Im thinking its a good Christmas project to keep me away from too much family.
I just got the 4l60e done and have everything I think I need to do this project. So it will begin shortly! Im thinking its a good Christmas project to keep me away from too much family.
01-02-2017, 10:53 PM
#17
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I love the idea of running a '411 PCM on a Gen1 SBC! It's amazing how much better the '411 drives than the old PCMs on an identical engine.
Are you tuning with HPTuners? I think I know how to get your fans working. I'm pretty sure EFILive has these settings as well.
These screenshots are from a 2000 Tahoe '411 PCM, stock tune except for the red cells I changed for these shots. As you can see, this was a mechanical fan truck since the temps are all at 284*. This PCM is now running a 5.3 in an '87 Formula with a two-speed fan successfully. I also have a P59 '05 Express van PCM in my '85 C10 with an LS swap and I got the fan with both speeds working with the same method.
First, set the "Fan Type" setting to "2 Fans".
Next, on the A/C page you need to change "Recirculation Fitted" to "Fan #2". Some trucks with mechanical fans had a recirculation control to use when the head pressure in the A/C was too high in warm weather since the PCM can't activate the fan to cool the condenser on a clutch fan truck. The pin on the PCM that controls fan #2 is shared between these two functions.
Oh yeah, in reference to the tach question, an LSx PCM will drive a tach but by default the output is the same pulse as a 4-cylinder. It can be changed in the tune to match a 6-cyl or 8-cyl tach though. Also, some PCMs lack a pullup resistor on the tach output so you have to add a 10k resistor from the output to a +12v source to pullup the signal and drive the tach. My Z28 with an '02 Camaro PCM does not need a pullup, but my truck with an '05 P59 Express van PCM does.
Are you tuning with HPTuners? I think I know how to get your fans working. I'm pretty sure EFILive has these settings as well.
These screenshots are from a 2000 Tahoe '411 PCM, stock tune except for the red cells I changed for these shots. As you can see, this was a mechanical fan truck since the temps are all at 284*. This PCM is now running a 5.3 in an '87 Formula with a two-speed fan successfully. I also have a P59 '05 Express van PCM in my '85 C10 with an LS swap and I got the fan with both speeds working with the same method.
First, set the "Fan Type" setting to "2 Fans".
Next, on the A/C page you need to change "Recirculation Fitted" to "Fan #2". Some trucks with mechanical fans had a recirculation control to use when the head pressure in the A/C was too high in warm weather since the PCM can't activate the fan to cool the condenser on a clutch fan truck. The pin on the PCM that controls fan #2 is shared between these two functions.
Oh yeah, in reference to the tach question, an LSx PCM will drive a tach but by default the output is the same pulse as a 4-cylinder. It can be changed in the tune to match a 6-cyl or 8-cyl tach though. Also, some PCMs lack a pullup resistor on the tach output so you have to add a 10k resistor from the output to a +12v source to pullup the signal and drive the tach. My Z28 with an '02 Camaro PCM does not need a pullup, but my truck with an '05 P59 Express van PCM does.
Tach I just changed the high and low Tach resolutions to 3, and it reads fine.
I tried those settings, and both outputs were just grounded all of the time. IDK if it is the 01 5.3 computer that is the problem. I talked to the guys from HP Tuners in person on the Power Tour and they thought it was possible to load another tune from a F-body, but that would cost more credits. I am just running a fan switch for the time being, but will play with it when I get some more time.
07-08-2017, 09:59 PM
#19
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
With that disclaimer out of the way let me see if I can help.
First what are all the details to your motor? Where did this tune come from?
Some things I saw at first glance
Power Enrichment:
It looks like Power Enrichment is effectively turned off. Bring down the torque requirement to turn on PE, check out my tune below. You basically want to make it easier to get into Power Enrichment. Then you can finally tune WOT
Timing:
Your spark timing is complicated, and at first glance looks like your not getting hardly any. It looks like that tune is relying on a bunch of adders to get the final spark advance. This in my opinion really complicates it. I would be curious of a scan. Look at my spark. I rely mostly on the main spark tables, and zero out most of the adders.
Fueling:
Your main fuel tables are weird. You should be getting more fuel towards the higher RPM's and higher loads. Compare it with mine.
Here's one of my later tunes.
11-17-2017, 05:36 PM
#20
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Car: 1985 Pontiac TransAM
Engine: 400SBC 24x conversion
Transmission: T700r Stage2 Shiftkitted
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 Bolt
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I had a spare vortec distributor from another build and happened to have the connector for the cam sensor. The 411 ls harness cam sensor connector is different than the vortec cam sensor so the vortec connector will have to be spliced in. I just compared the 411 pinout wires to the vortec connector and soldered the right wires in the right spot.
Pin A and pin B need to be swapped as you mentioned.
I've been trying to diagnose a problem with my car for 2 months now with backfiring, hesitation and stuttering, professional tuners and 3 mechanics couldn't figure it out, and i just tested the PCM pins according to the pin A B C and they matched, checked the vortec pinout and sure enough they were around the wrong way.
Just about to reflash the PCM with my original tune and go for a test drive, but I'm pretty confident this was my problem.
If you ever head to Australia the beer is on me!
11-18-2017, 10:47 AM
#21
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Location: Hurst, Texas
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Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Mate, you are a ****ing legend. I've spent hours/days/weeks/months/(now 4 years) reading everything about the 0411 swaps, and not a single person has mentioned the different pins between the vortec dizzy and the ls1 cam sensor.
Pin A and pin B need to be swapped as you mentioned.
I've been trying to diagnose a problem with my car for 2 months now with backfiring, hesitation and stuttering, professional tuners and 3 mechanics couldn't figure it out, and i just tested the PCM pins according to the pin A B C and they matched, checked the vortec pinout and sure enough they were around the wrong way.
Just about to reflash the PCM with my original tune and go for a test drive, but I'm pretty confident this was my problem.
If you ever head to Australia the beer is on me!
Pin A and pin B need to be swapped as you mentioned.
I've been trying to diagnose a problem with my car for 2 months now with backfiring, hesitation and stuttering, professional tuners and 3 mechanics couldn't figure it out, and i just tested the PCM pins according to the pin A B C and they matched, checked the vortec pinout and sure enough they were around the wrong way.
Just about to reflash the PCM with my original tune and go for a test drive, but I'm pretty confident this was my problem.
If you ever head to Australia the beer is on me!
I am actually about to have a 406 small block vortec with a Lunati Bootlegger 224/236 in the 350s place. Going to get to find out how the 2006 DBC Van PCM that is in my Express handles the cam overlap very soon.
Last edited by Fast355; 11-18-2017 at 10:53 AM.
11-18-2017, 10:22 PM
#22
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Mate, you are a ****ing legend. I've spent hours/days/weeks/months/(now 4 years) reading everything about the 0411 swaps, and not a single person has mentioned the different pins between the vortec dizzy and the ls1 cam sensor.
Pin A and pin B need to be swapped as you mentioned.
I've been trying to diagnose a problem with my car for 2 months now with backfiring, hesitation and stuttering, professional tuners and 3 mechanics couldn't figure it out, and i just tested the PCM pins according to the pin A B C and they matched, checked the vortec pinout and sure enough they were around the wrong way.
Just about to reflash the PCM with my original tune and go for a test drive, but I'm pretty confident this was my problem.
If you ever head to Australia the beer is on me!
Pin A and pin B need to be swapped as you mentioned.
I've been trying to diagnose a problem with my car for 2 months now with backfiring, hesitation and stuttering, professional tuners and 3 mechanics couldn't figure it out, and i just tested the PCM pins according to the pin A B C and they matched, checked the vortec pinout and sure enough they were around the wrong way.
Just about to reflash the PCM with my original tune and go for a test drive, but I'm pretty confident this was my problem.
If you ever head to Australia the beer is on me!
11-20-2017, 09:33 AM
#23
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mesa, Az
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Car: 92 1LE B4C
Engine: 350
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I will still be getting back to you on results irrocman.
I haven't even driven the car since my last post. Life keeps getting in the way.
But I have to take it through emissions this month so Ive got to get to it!
I haven't even driven the car since my last post. Life keeps getting in the way.
But I have to take it through emissions this month so Ive got to get to it!
01-16-2019, 03:16 PM
#24
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Re: My 411 pcm swap
I read through everything you posted and really only had one question. You mentioned taking out the factory engine harness. Were you able to reuse the factory "bulkhead" connector to allow the new engine harness access into the car? I read other posts somewhere that said there was not enough cavities for everything. I plan to use the distributor and not the coil packs so I should have less wires than your setup. I still in the planning stages and haven't actually looked at the wire count.
01-16-2019, 06:10 PM
#25
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I read through everything you posted and really only had one question. You mentioned taking out the factory engine harness. Were you able to reuse the factory "bulkhead" connector to allow the new engine harness access into the car? I read other posts somewhere that said there was not enough cavities for everything. I plan to use the distributor and not the coil packs so I should have less wires than your setup. I still in the planning stages and haven't actually looked at the wire count.
Good question, I did not, and now i have a huge space that i will have to fill up. Ducting tape is sealing it now.
Since I did this one I helped another buddy with his 89 Iroc. We reused the original bulkhead on his, and soldered wires in. We did have to drill additional holes in the bulkhead for the added wires. Its pretty trick tbh.
I might build another harness with some spares i have lying around, and do a little nicer job with it.
02-15-2019, 02:19 PM
#26
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I currently run EBL Flash on my 406ci running a Flat Tappet XFI 280 cam and FIRST Intake. I've struggled for several years getting decent results out of the cars tune in terms of drivability and power. I have always considered making the switch over to LS Fuel Injection Management in hopes of it improving my tune. But at the same time it bothers me that I can't get it to work well with what I have, even though it technically should be doable, and I don't want to give up so easily.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
02-16-2019, 12:32 PM
#27
Member
Thread Starter
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I currently run EBL Flash on my 406ci running a Flat Tappet XFI 280 cam and FIRST Intake. I've struggled for several years getting decent results out of the cars tune in terms of drivability and power. I have always considered making the switch over to LS Fuel Injection Management in hopes of it improving my tune. But at the same time it bothers me that I can't get it to work well with what I have, even though it technically should be doable, and I don't want to give up so easily.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
08-18-2020, 04:00 PM
#29
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Car: 1985 Pontiac TransAM
Engine: 400SBC 24x conversion
Transmission: T700r Stage2 Shiftkitted
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 Bolt
Re: My 411 pcm swap
I currently run EBL Flash on my 406ci running a Flat Tappet XFI 280 cam and FIRST Intake. I've struggled for several years getting decent results out of the cars tune in terms of drivability and power. I have always considered making the switch over to LS Fuel Injection Management in hopes of it improving my tune. But at the same time it bothers me that I can't get it to work well with what I have, even though it technically should be doable, and I don't want to give up so easily.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
Anyways one issue I think I might run into is the crank sensor. With my 406 being a factory unbalanced crank I have to run the special balancer. Is there a requirement to run the vortec balancer or can the factory balancer be used? I too have a double roller setup I would prefer to keep.
I won't tell you it was a nice easy process but it all worked out in the end.
If you decide to go the LSX PCM swap let me know and I can send you my tune.
10-16-2022, 08:18 PM
#30
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Re: My 411 pcm swap
Here's some pics I saved along the way.
Starting with truck harness getting washed in the driveway.
Next both harness's stripped
Timing cover installed
OBD 2 connector in factory location
Harness first laid in the engine compartment
harness getting wrapped in protectors
Balancers sided by side
411 pulled through stock location
C207 connector with splicing I did
At the last NTTGA meet
Balancer and pulley on
Starting with truck harness getting washed in the driveway.
Next both harness's stripped
Timing cover installed
OBD 2 connector in factory location
Harness first laid in the engine compartment
harness getting wrapped in protectors
Balancers sided by side
411 pulled through stock location
C207 connector with splicing I did
At the last NTTGA meet
Balancer and pulley on
10-16-2022, 08:51 PM
#31
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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Car: 1985 Pontiac TransAM
Engine: 400SBC 24x conversion
Transmission: T700r Stage2 Shiftkitted
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 Bolt
Re: My 411 pcm swap
Tacho signal won't come from the transmission, will come from the PCM, Red connector, Pin 10, White wire to gauge. Check for continuity and make sure it's connected and work your way back
