anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I was re-reading the documentation that comes with the LC-1, and it recommends wiring the wideband so that it doesn't power up unless the engine is running. (To avoid a cool charge hitting a warmed-up sensor and ruining the sensor).

Are you guys wiring it up using the fuel pump relay or some other method ?

I was thinking of maybe using a spare output on my ECM that powers it up when running.

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The autometer ones only turn on above 12.8 or so volts so when the alt is charging. I would use the oil pressure switch to wire your wb02

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I didn't think of that, I was gonna use a GPIO output on the ECU. Oil pressure switch is clever. That shorts to ground when oil pressure is present right? So just run it to a relay.

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I had my LC-1 wired to ignition for years without issue.

I would disconnect it if I had to have the ignition on without the engine running for any extended period of time, which was rare.

If you ABSOLUTELY only wanted it powered once the engine was running, you could wire it to the fuel pump relay (OPSU would act very similar, since they are tied together for fuel pump control in the original GM wiring), or use one of the spare outputs from your MS and have it turn on only above about 400 RPM.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

7 yrs on lc1 wired to ignition key on source. Never an issue

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Eh.. I dunno, I just read the manual and figured I should do it the way they recommend. I have it on the ignition switch currently.

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Oil pressure switch supplies 12v wired parallel to fp relay to relief it. Easy to use for an engine running condition switch

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'll have to trace it later. That would work even better.

Thanks!

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The tan white wire should be switched 12v

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They tell you not to run engine with sensor not hooked up and operating so whether you turn it on when engine starts or just before while cranking doesnt matter

tmellott89

My POS only lasted mabey 50 mile and I had a lot of key on with engine off while trying to tune my idle. its wired to a key on source at fuse box. I don't know if that's what did it but innovate never gave me an explanation of why my LC-2 had ruined a sensor already, I can only think of placement but they acted like it was fine also. I have an extra bung to weld further down stream and another sensor now, just haven't welded it yet. My only thought on key on would be as if it were to over heat with engine off b/c of heated sensor, but I was also told that the heaters know when there hot enough to not over heat like that. Although ive never owned an LC-1.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

From the manual (last paragraph)

"5. The BLUE and WHITE wires should all be grounded to the same ground source.
Optimally, these (and any other MTS device ground) will be soldered to the same lug, and
connected to a single point. When this isn’t possible, connect each one to a separate lug,
and attach in close proximity. Multiple lugs on the same bolt is not optimal, and can result in
unwanted signal “noise.” When possible, soldering is always better than crimping. Please
see chapter 2.3 for more information on Electrical Grounding Concerns.


6. Optionally, the YELLOW (Analog out 1) and/or BROWN (Analog out 2) can be connected
to the analog inputs of other devices such as data loggers, ECUs, or gauges. If either one or
both of these wires are not being used isolate and tape the wire(s) out of the way. The default
analog outputs are as follows: Analog output one is 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR. This is
a simulated narrowband signal. Analog output two is setup as 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39
AFR. Note: The LC-1’s heater ground and system ground wires should share the same
grounding location of the analog input’s ground. Refer to chapter 2.2 for recommended
wiring schematics.

It is NOT a good idea to connect the LC-1 permanently to 12V and switch it
on with a separate switch before the vehicle is started. Depending on the climate
and the sensor position in the exhaust, condensation water can form in the
exhaust pipes. This condensation water could then be blown by the exhaust
stream against the hot sensor when the car is started. The resulting heat shock
can permanently damage the sensor."


-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yes, have read that and have NEVER experienced this problem they speak of, and I live in a pretty humid area (Southern Ontario Canada). I have not heard of anyone else having an issue with their WBO2 controllers connected this way either, in many different areas all over the world.

ALL of my WBO2 controllers have been/are connected to 12V ignition. Like I said previously if I had to have the key on for an extended period of time without the engine running I would just disconnect WBO2 controller. (a switch in the power lead might be a good idea if you think this will happen often)

Like has already been suggested, using the OPSU to trigger a relay for the WBO2 or a spare output of your MS to trigger above a certain RPM would also be fine. I would not connect the power wire of the WBO2 controller directly to the fuel pump wire, because that wire is generally very noisy, due to the way some pumps are made.

I think you're just making this into a bigger deal than it really is.


I'm also going to move this to the DFI/ECM forum since this is less about DIY PROM tuning and more about hardware.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

X100

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I was simply asking how others have wired it based on the manufacturers instructions.

I guess next time I read a manual I'll keep it to myself.

Thank you, I've got what I needed.

-- Joe

Vanilla Ice

Wired mine to key on. No big deal.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You can do that, but you asked a question, you didn't care for the answers you were getting and basically implying some of us are wrong, even after giving you some ideas on how to make the power to the LC-1 work the way you want, even though it's unnecessary and gave our experiences with how to deal with extended key on engine off times.

So you can either choose to trigger a relay from the OPSU or the ECU or just power it from ignition, both will be fine.

I read their warning as more of a "don't leave it powered for extended periods without the engine running" than as a "MUST be powered only when the crank is actually turning"...

skinny z

Hmm. This might explain why some sensors I've had ( and others I know) only last a relatively short time (as in months) and others will work for several seasons.

skinny z

.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I wasn't implying anything. I asked how people had wired theirs in relation to the manufacturers instructions. Twin_Turbo gave me some advice, which I appreciated.

I wasn't looking for someone to tell me I wouldn't have a problem, or that Innovate was wrong. I'm not looking to debate the manual. I wasn't looking to debate anything.

I was simply asking how people wired there's up.

I've had mine wired to the ignition switch as well since 2012, and after pooching the sensor I figured I'd try to investigate why it died. I re-read the manual, then did some google searches and found literally hundreds of threads on guys who had pooched sensors. Maybe they over heated, maybe they were defective, I don't know. But since I wasn't a member on any of those forums I figured I'd ask the question on the forum I was a member of how people wired it.


-- Joe

skinny z

What might the options be for those of us you don't use an ECM? My oil pressure sender is of the variable output type (for a gauge) so that's out.
Perhaps a latching relay that is wired in parallel with the starter solenoid (provided I can find such an device for an automotive application)?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If it's an EFI car, the sender (one of them at least) should be an oil pressure switch to energize the fuel pump circuit (as twin_turbo pointed out).

I forget which years had two senders, but don't all of them have the circuit to the fuel pump?

If It's a CARB car, add the sender/switch

Wiring it to the oil pressure switch is a great idea, and will save me from using an ECU output. I only have 2 and I'm using one for the cooling fan. This way I can keep the 2nd one if I ever go to a 700R4 and need to lock the converter.

I suspect I killed my sensor from troubleshooting the IAC. With soo many stops and stalls, downtime while checking things (o2 heater was on) then cranking and wet fuel hitting the hot sensor. It probably did it in.

-- Joe

skinny z

I'm thinking my sensor met it's demise much the same way. There has been more than one instance where I've forgotten to turn the key off after some tuning exercise or other maintenance.
Unfortunately, my combination is as basic as it gets. No EFI, just a carb and the ignition box I use (MSD 6AL) has no outputs for any functions other than a rev limiter and tach signal.
The oil pressure switch would be ideal. I could, I suppose, add a second pressure switch to activate a relay.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The failed sensor was recent, as in it was in the car for 4 years and then failed?

That's probably longer than most last, in a performance application. I know people who replace their sensors every season, some will replace them more often. Some will replace the sensor if a head gasket goes (or some other variable that could introduce something into the exhaust than typical exhaust (that sounded weird lol). I think I replaced one of my sensors after about 3 or 4 years, simply because it seemed about time, in my daily driven hard driven and sometimes failure prone car. I did notice a change in AFR readings afterwards, not huge, just enough to notice with the new sensor (Yes, it was an LC-1 and I re-calibrated). The old sensor became a backup, in case I had one fail.

From what I've seen most failures were due to poorly installed LC-1s, poor grounds, noisy ignition sources, etc. This seemed to effect older units, I haven't heard of nearly as many failures since about 2011 or so.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's what I was just about to suggest add a second Hobbs switch that turns on at like 5 PSIG, to trigger a relay. Getting a stock oil pressure switch for a non gauge cluster (idiot light) would work perfect.

If you wanted to complicate it, and use RPM as the trigger you could get an RPM activated switch and if MSD makes pills small enough get one that would turn on at about 400 RPM or so. If not you'd need to make a circuit to do that. Oil pressure switch is easier. lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The car only has about 4 hours total of run time. The garage is heated and air conditioned, so I suspect wet fuel is what killed it not environmental. But I'll be moving the car to storage soon.

I'm told exhaust temp is a big issue too. I've moved it to my merge (was in my collector) so it's quite a ways downstream now. Hopefully I won't have any more problems.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I remember this conversation on another forum years back, the end conclusion after all the bickering was that the manufacturer was more than likely referring to the location of the sensor in conjunction with a 12 volt power source because they know that some guys will actually install the O2 bung on, or near, the very bottom of the exhaust tube where water can form and possibly submerge the sensor when not running. This of course would mean the 7, 6 and 5 o'clock position on a straight exhaust tube. Ideally you want 3 and 9 o'clock on a straight tube, or higher, but they have no control over who puts what where, so they are forced to put out the warning...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

From my experience and others, the sensors can be hit or miss. Some guys get them to live a couple years, some dont. Seems to be the way things go. Even with new o2 sensors by bosch that dont require fresh air calibration.
My lc1 lasted 7 years and i ran 3 sensors thru it. I swapped sensors every 2 yrs. no reason other than i wanted a fresh sensor

topless87

I have a turbo car that I run my LC-2 about 6-8" from the exhaust housing outlet. Mine is triggered by the ignition switch. It has never "burned" out but I have replaced it after a turbo failure really hosed it down with oil, but it was still working, I just wanted a fresh sensor. MTC

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This topic came up again on another forum, so I figured I'd link this article that was sourced:

http://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-...-applications/

Since I made this original post last year, I've joined some tuning groups and met some really talented people. When you have access to information on literally thousands of builds/tunes, your perspective changes.

-- Joe

Z51bob

Mine are on a relay triggerd from the the fuel pump circuit. this assures that the heater is only on when the engine is running. Its a little bit of a pain for setup & recal with the engine off but I think its worth it in the long run. i think heater life is more the issue than water damage with wiring to the “key on” circuit.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Some of these sensors can be wired so they only function at higher battery voltages... in other words with the engine running. This does not fix cold running conditions. A smarter way is to use tge air divert solenoids. They are switched between open and closed loop.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

A lot of the guys do that, or run it off a spare output with an aftermarket ECM.

Most of the guys I've been talking to are getting 80-100k miles on them on big horsepower street cars when wired up as the manufacturer recommends.

Guys on here be like "I never have a problem" then "we replace them every season"...


-- Joe