JP84Z430HP

Ken73 You should have email. The zip file of the pics was too big to attach in a post, and I don't have anything setup right now to put them up myself. If anyone else wants them, I will do a 1 or MAYBE 2 time emailing for others. I would love to see how it fits though!

EDIT:
I just put up a link to my webspace on my ISP to a zip file of the pics I took earlier. Please be gentle on D/L! If you really need it, grab it, if not, wait a few days!

Here's the WORKING link: ECM7730Pics.zip

Ken73

I've been looking at the '7730 pics someone sent me, and it looks easy enough to just make a little "side-step" adapter like Bob designed (above.)

Either that, or we can possibly make a whole new adapter board (ala Craig Moates) that has the PROMinator built in.

Yes, we're looking at making a "Pro" version that has tuning on the fly (using bank switched flash ROM.) Obviously, it'd cost a little more, and be a little larger.

TRAXION

I'd be ALL over that!!!

Tim

SATURN5

If your using ExpressPCB software.. I'll send you the file. BW

Craig Moates

OK, I took my new digital caliper (good wife) to a 1227165 type P4, which along with the 749 is pretty much worst-case (yet typical) of P4s for clearance. Here's the deal:

The maximum size area you could fit something inside the box (as it is with my existing adapter or similar unit along with a 'side stepper') is 1.7" top to bottom, 3.3" side to side, and 0.4" in height off the adapter socket.

Prominator as it is is 2.03" top to bottom and 2.6" wide, with a height of 0.63" (I'm guessing based on mockup with IDC cable connection).

Stuff has to be moved to get it in the box.

That being said, possibilities include (but are of course not limited to):

1) Reduction of height with angle-header for IDC. Clears fine without cable, but cable box will stick up a little too much. Probably fine, as when you tighten down on the cover, it will just push the cable head kinda into the rubber stuff on the cover and that will probably take up the 0.2" pretty well. This would get height down to 0.35" (plenty good). Easy to do with no mod to the Prominator layout. Unless the Flash 512 gets in the way, which I think it will, but it should be pretty thin. Don't know, still looks like a push. If soldered directly to my adapter or similar device, it would give you maybe 0.15" extra height clearance. Bottom line, I don't think height reduction is that important, and the Prominator with slight mod (angle header OK?) can be made to work going into a 'socketed' adapter board. Can't afford the extra height of a 'side stepper' piece though.

2) Relocation of device via 'rearrangement' header. This will add height, and is probably undesirable. Besides, there's not enough room to start with. The bounds of the case and the side-mounted Memcal are much too limiting.

3) Relocation of device via custom PROM adapter layout. This could do two things:
a) Open up the area by moving the Memcal connection further 'up' outboard from the centerline, giving more 'top to bottom' area. That will provide the room needed to position the Prominator within the confines of the unit. I estimate an additional 0.5" should do the trick.
b) Move the Prominator socket connection to the 'right' and 'up'. This will give clearance away from the left and bottom confines. Gotta move it over to the right by 0.65" to clear the left hold-down, and UP by like 0.75".
-note: There's a problem here though. This will position the 'cable' connection up under the case. This is kinda OK, since the case will flex some, and that flex will hold everything together tight. The user will DEFINITELY have to split the case open to put everything together, that's for sure. Easy to do though, like 10 screws.
4) Stacking 1-2 'regular' sockets on your existing Moates or other Memcal adapter / modified Memcal. This positions the receiving socket for a Prominator 'above' the case, and gives clearance on all sides! While this does position the Prominator outside the ECM case, it makes efficient use of existing hardware you already have. If you're really concerned about bumping it into something, cover it with some electrical or duct tape. I doubt RFI will be a problem either with the close coupling. If it is, we can work something out pretty quick.

So in summary, my suggestion would be -> #4 <-, which carries an extra cost of maybe $2 for the stacked sockets and tape. As an alternative, if you think #3 is desirable I can put something together in no time (available in 1-2 weeks). It would be essentially a 'tucked under' version of the Moates adapter that has the Memcal hanging off 1/2" further away and has the socket
moved up 3/4" and over to the right 2/3". Price would be the same as a regular adapter, about $35 or so. If you want more height clearance, I could offer it up without the socket soldered in, so you could solder the Prominator on directly and gain about 0.15" or so that way.

But really though, in my honest opinion, if you can handle having this thing perched right at your case exterior (it will hang on tight no problem), the right way to install it in a P4 is just to stick a couple sockets in your existing setup and be done with it.

Sound good?

JP84Z430HP

Maybe someone could even come up with custom covers with some of the black foam on them to help support the PROMinator?

I vote for option #4 as long as it works like planned (don't know why it wouldn't!)

EDIT:
I don't know about others, but I would want to keep mine removable (As compared to permanently soldered in place.) I doubt the thing would work with the ZIF in the moates adapter, but maybe just a standard socket?

Craig Moates

Keep in mind that all my adapters come with snap-out removable ZIF sockets unless otherwise requested. That will leave you with a socket that will work for the #4 option.

JP84Z430HP

Ok, I was under the impression that the ZIF was permanent in your adapter! Now we're talking! I can't wait for all of this to be ready! I'm gonna wait to take my first steps into the DIY-EFI stuff after I get a PROMinator. Seems like it will be too much easier, and should take some of the headaches out of the process!

I will be ordering one as soon as orders are taken, and/or I have the extra $$$ ready. (AKA put me on the list!)

HaulnA$$

This should be a sticky, bigtime!

This is awseome!!!

MrBill

The "#4" option, prominator external to the ECM, sounds like it may just be crazy enough to work. Keep in mind also that I added three holes to the board for mounting in an enclosure. If you had a short aluminum box, drilled a few holes in it for a PEM-type standoff, and left one side open for the prominator-to-ECM pins to stick out, then there's your shielding and it wouldn't look to terribly bad either.

When I get a chance I will also make a junkyard run and try to find a P4...suggestions as to what vehicle(s) to look for?

Oh and by the way, I use OrCad for schematic entry and PCB layout.

EDIT:

Forgot to add....I took a MUCH needed break to go camping with my folks this weekend, so I didn't get any debugging done over the weekend. So far today it's looking pretty good, I've got a small bug with the multiple BIN images, but I think I know what's causing it and will hopefully get that worked out today. (I'm using a BP Micro BP1400 device programmer set up to read the PROMinator contents as a "generic" 2732 EPROM).

MrBill

As far as component heights...

Aside from the ribbon cable header, power connector (which could easily be external also) and the DIP switch...the tallest necessary component is the relay, which has a height off the board of about .215". There is also a 6-pin header, but it's only for programming the CPLD during assembly, once it's programmed that header can be "trimmed" down.

I think as long as a shielded cable is used for an external DIP switch (a rotary would be sweet), noise/EMI shouldn't be a problem. There's no switching going on there, just strictly DC levels, and those address lines have pullup resistors so it would take a pretty strong EMI spike to cause a problem.

Bill

Grumpy

If you're just wanting to borrow a P4, I got one I can send you for test purposes. Drop me an email, with your address if you want to use it.

MrBill

Bruce, you've got mail.

MrBill

Update...

I now have two of the three prototypes consistently verifying correctly.

What I'm doing to test:

- program PROMinator with 4 copies of a 4Kbyte image (the programming software automatically verifies each copy after programming)
- plug PROMinator assembly into a BPMicro BP-1400 device programmer set up to read a "generic" 2732 EPROM and read the 4 different address ranges of the PROMinator contents
- load the BIN file that was downloaded to PROMinator ROM into the BPMicro software's buffer
- verify the PROMinator contents against the BPMicro software buffer for each of the 4 DIP switch positions

Next I'll test it with some different image sizes...64K, 128K, 256K.

Craig Moates

Why do you need a power connector? Can't you just pull power from the target device? It's good for a couple hundred mA. Is this a separate wire which has to be connected? How does that work for the user? I guess you can't have the target powered up during programming, DOH!

I did the rotary remote thing. Even added a hex LED display. There's others out there too that work pretty good (ie. Todd Austinson's). The concept works, but there is the issue with EMI. It causes a problem even with 10k pullups on 5v. Then again, I used unshielded ribbon cable. I did add some 100pF caps on each signal line at the device end of the business, and that took care of it in the absence of shielded cable. If you're interested, I can send you a sample of what I have with respect to the remote switch and what-not.

BTW, I did a little parallel port programmer for 29C256 and 29F040 chips based on the XC9572. Never got around to doing the VHDL for it though. Got off headlong into other projects. Got all the logic sorted out, and it will work for bidirectional, just never finished it. Maybe one of these days, or if someone is motivated...hint-hint...

JP84Z430HP

OMIGOSH You've got me becoming excited! I can't wait! This is the "link" I'm waiting for to embark upon my next project, which will be an "Interim learning experience" type project!

Thanks for keeping us updated!

BTW.....This would be a good thing to have "Sticky"......

EDIT: Corrected spelling!

MrBill

Well, the shielded cable I was referring to was stricly for the address lines that would need to be switched for selecting different BIN images. A ribbon cable between the ROM and ECM main board is a different issue. I was thinking something along the lines of a .050" pitch (high density) ribbon cable and use every other line for a ground, kinda like the newer 80 conductor hard drive cables. (I think that's what they do) The issue with a ribbon between external memory and the ECM main board more crosstalk than EMI I think. Even at only 1MHz crosstalk is a big problem. A ground line between each data and address line will solve that.

And yes you're correct Craig...you absolutely can NOT have the CPLD on the PROMinator board and the ECM powered up at the same time. You would have two drivers trying to drive the same line(s) at the same time (the CPLD and the ECM micro), which of course has a tendency to let the factory-installed smoke out of the chips. That's what the relay is on there for, to route the appropriate power supply to the flash ROM...from external power in "programming" mode and from the ECM in normal operating mode, and also to keep the CPLD powered off during normal operating mode. The PROMinator could be powered by a cig. lighter or something like that (as long as it's not ignition switched). Or you could just use an external 9V battery, though it's not really designed for best power usage, so I don't know how long a 9V would last.

As for the CPLD, I don't use HDL for the logic design, I use good 'ol schematics. Something about text-based hardware logic just don't seem right to me. The application code to support 29C and 49F series must be a PITA, since they use totally different writing algorithms.

JP84Z430HP

I love that! Someone talking like me! LOL!

Would it be possible to just tap into the constant 12V wire to the ECM? Or would it not be a good idea to keep power to the programmer? If not, I would probably run a toggle switch to power it.

Again, I'm thinking aloud.

MrBill

No, you can't have the programming power and ECM power to the PROMinator at the same time. It wouldn't allow it even if you did apply both power sources at the same time. If you apply external (programming) power it will automatically isolate the board from ECM power, so if you even tried to start it up you would get whatever happens when there's no EPROM.

JP84Z430HP

Oops, I suppose I would've figured that out if I had thought about what I read more thoroughly! Looks like a switch of some sort! I'm gonna guess that battery voltage would be ok since you mention cig lighter plug.... I would probably run a relay or something to keep it from being able to have power with the IGN turned on. I guess I'll just wait and see when you get them finished!

Grumpy

KEWL.

Designed with GRUMPY in mind, LOL.

Yes, I'm able to let the smoke out of idiot proof devices.....

MrBill

There's a relay on board that does the power routing.

Bruce...well I was gonna mention the term "idiot-proofing" but I didn't want to offend anyone. :sillylol:

JP84Z430HP

I don't think most of us would mind the "Idiot Proofing" terminology, especially those of us that have wasted expensive silicon by doing stupid stuff that we knew we shouldn't be doing (not that I would be one of those people )

lock

Not one but two thumbs up. You guys that keep pushing the envelope and using fresh ideas and newer technology to make tuning our "old" cars easier are awesome!

Grumpy

Just as the antique wood desk I was using started smoking, I realized it was a definite, OOOPS.

Note, to all interested parties, old varnish, and a 555 and Power MOSFET without enough heat sinking can be bad Karma.

555's can actually explode, and MOSFETs get hot enough to ignite varnish.

While I haven't killed any computer models, the word yet, needs mentioned, LOL.

Craig Moates

Bruce, you DO stay clear of electrolytic capacitors, don't you?!?

Grumpy

Not often enough.
I have learned not to work on anything with a CRT!.
They're not kidding about storing HV for a long time.

As far as cats go, I'm well past 9, LOL.

MrBill

Oh I've created my share of semiconductor pyrotechnics as well. One of my favorites was applying 120VAC to a 17V tantalum cap. D'OH! Lesson learned: wear eye protection!

Craig Moates

Ha! Yeah, I had an old Wells Gardner 27" screen I was rebuilding, and I was barefoot on a tile floor. I've gotten hot with 120, 220 (which feels just like 2x 120), and even 440. But man, that CRT discharge hits you like a brick! I thought I was clear, but apparently it's nothing to jump 2-3". I thought for a second that was the last of it here on earth.

SARswmr

I've been contemplating getting into prom burning. Now that someone referred me to this post, all I can say is I'm in!!

This seems to be alot easier for the non-engineer types like me

Is there an estimate on when the Prominator will be available to buy. I don't want to sound rushing.. just curious to when I will be able to get into this.

If there is an order list, please put me on it. I will pay for it the day you say it's ready.

Thanks

Tim Bray

The_Raven

I am very interseted in this, I will want at least one, probably two.

I will at this point need one for the 730 ECM, but may also want one for the 747, for some testing I have in mind.

I do not own an F-body, but I have found this forum to be very helpful and has given me some great ideas.

TrofeoS/C

Just got the email from Ken about this, looking pretty cool guys!

For those who don't know me, I've been on gm_ecm and diy_efi. I've been playing mostly with the 1228253 on the wrong-wheel drive 3800's, but am preparing to get back to work on the Camaro.

Back to the topic, if you guys get this thing to do real-time tuning, it's going to be awesome! I've been using RT Tuner with the Romulator, and I've got to tell you it makes things go so much smoother. The hard part is remembering that taking notes is still just as important. It's neat to clean up a rough idle watching the WB move as you make changes. The toys that area available these days are just too cool.

Scott

MrBill

Availability: I'd guesstimate about 6 weeks or so. We're still doing some final testing, but it's looking good.

As for ordering...I had already set up an ordering website for an adapter board that I did for crossfires: http://misterbill.homeip.net so I think the plan is to just add PROMinator to that site for ordering.

SATURN5

Oh lord there goes the neighborhod....

Hey ya Scott.

BW

Grumpy

Well at least his Caddie is the right color, LOL.
Any more complaints from the Golf Course?.

You suppose we could get them to keep that road closed for Private Testing?. Then maybe setup a radar gun for tuning purposes. Or maybe post some signs, min. speed, 135 MPH.

That'd really have the golf guys going, WTFWT.

TrofeoS/C

None so far. Just the 'jet engine' guy.

Road is still closed, getting a radar gun for experimental purposes might be a bit more difficult. Those are typically attached to cops, who are attached to ticket books. Thankfully, they tend not to visit the closed road.

Golf guys have frequent WTFWT looks, even the little FWD brings that out.

Scott

Grumpy

Your forgetting I've talked things over with Bob.
Just need to get squared away with who's on duty.

CrazyHawaiian

Damn, I wish I had read this BEFORE I bought my own PP and a couple of EEPROMS.

rooster433

Great Idea,

I hope it works on my car.. the romulator doesn't. works on my 747 but not on my 93LT1 a shame too.. i could really use it

The_Raven

I'm just waiting for this to be released.

TrofeoS/C

Just for those on the outside, I'll clear this up a bit. Bob is a new friend of Bruce's who also happens to be the Tipton Police chief. Somehow Bruce stopped and talked to him for a while when he was here, seems they're best buddies now.

Anyway, since you know him better than I do, I think you'd get further requesting a radar gun.

Scott

TrofeoS/C

93 LT1 uses a 27C256, correct?

Did you get your programmer before the GM update? When I first got mine, it wouldn't work with a P4, after a few emails to Intronix, they got it figured out. Check their website, they do the update for free.

Scott

JPrevost

When is the projected release date? I have a bad itch to get rid of the programmer. Any chance this will be for sale within the month?

Grumpy

I haven't talked to George lately, but there is/was also a problem with the early PCMS. ie my 7060 in the truck won't talk R_T yet.

Ya, good ole Bob. LOL

Ken73

We ran into a weird glitch in it, and figured out a fix, as well as the permanent solution. There have been several redesigns since we first started, so we're looking at just making a whole new board layout that fits the P4 and C3 ECM's to begin with so it's not a jumbled mess for P4's.

Sale will probably not be until a few months from now.

SLP_GTA

iTrader: (1)

A complete kit with everything you need to get started.

Oh included a book titled "prom burning for dummies" I would have NO problem paying WHATEVER you think it would be worth for a complete kit. A step by step to get started in burning would be very useful to allot of us, Ok me

Please consider a complete kit, and count me in

JP84Z430HP

Well, for me, it's a good thing it's a few months off! I have to get all the stuff together and get TPI installed in my car first! THanks for keeping us updated!

vexter

iTrader: (3)

Hi guys, great work here...

I'm a total n00b here so bear with me. Am I understanding correctly that this kit is all I'll need if I have a totally stock ecm (i.e. no zif socket or other Moates adapter)? Also, when using a laptop for data-logging, do I still need to run an aldl adapter cable from the serial port or is there going to be a place to plug into under the passenger side dash? And, since I brought up the aldl cable, I've seen a couple different ones being sold on eBay. Should I be looking at a specific one? My first concern is reliability. TIA

--Aaron

Ken73

If you have a P4 ECM, you will need Craig's adapter. The PROMinator will snap into that adapter, and hopefully be hidden underneath the ECM's cover when not in use.

You will still need the ALDL cable/adapter setup - we purposely made the PROMinator work with the parallel port so you could have both WinALDL/Craig's software running and our software, without having to pull plugs or have a switchbox. You'll plug into the ALDL connector under your dash (I'm assuming that's where it is, mine is actually in the ashtray!)

vexter

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the clarification. Actually, I was looking at the cables linked on Craig Moates site. One of the cheaper cables has you splice into the back of the aldl connector. If I'm going to do that, I could easily break it out to the passenger side with a hard mounted jack that includes power from the cig lighter or something. Then I can modify the aldl cable with a connector to fit that jack. The whole thing would be nice and clean. Serial and parallel cables going to the same general area under the passenger side dash! Anyways, I'm waiting eagerly for the release of the PROMinator!!! Thanks again for the response...