RBob

iTrader: (1)

For EBL users running a manual transmission, the stock DFCO parameters can cause the engine to stall. This can happen as the clutch is depressed while slowing down. To check for it look at the Analysis of the log file by observing the DC Y/N column. The DC is DFCO with a Y as being active.

It will be a Y and with the PW dropping to 0 (fuel cut off). (DFCO is Decel Fuel Cut Off).

Change the following DFCO parameters:

DFCO - Upper/Lower RPM Thres(hyst) to 2000 rpm upper and 1800 rpm lower
DFCO - Upper/Lower MPH Thres(hyst) to 45 mph upper and 40 mph lower

I would also disable DCFO until some additional VE Learning is done:

DFCO - Enable Temperature, set to a high value (151c).

Then once those areas of the VE table is learned in, re-enable the DFCO .

Sometimes when the DFCO is exited it is abrupt. This is true with modified engines and manual transmissions. In this case it can be helpful to just disable it. This is how I run the Firebird. Otherwise a slight touch of the gas and DFCO exits, it jars the whole vehicle along with the passengers.

If upon DFCO exit there is a slight forward surge, try adding a little PW to the exit. This is the 'Fuel Pulse upon exit'. It is likely being caused by a lean surge.

Can also tweak the IAC steps during DFCO along with the IAC decay filter. These 2 are found in the IAC parameters.

RBob.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

One of the areas I have been struggling with is a trailing throttle stumble particularly in the 1600-2200 rpm range when the motor goes down to about 30kPa or below. If the motor is in DFCO, it slows down nicely, but there are areas where it will switch from stoich to Fuel Cutoff abruptly and back. I have looked at the scan as you suggested and the PW is pretty short, as in .8-.9msec. Tried adding more fuel in those areas but not much help.
Also, under fairly rapid decel where I might downshift from 3rd to 2nd at higher rpms, I will get popping from under the car rather than at the exhaust tips. Cutting off the Added Fuel for IAC steps has helped some there. Any other suggestions? If anyone else has encountered these, please chime in.
Finally on cold start, I do get a lean surge happening until about 50C then motor calms down.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Hard to say without seeing a data log. I can recommend some things to see if it improves.

trailing throttle stumble particularly in the 1600-2200 rpm range

First, disable DFCO by setting the enable temperature high.

Then data log it and see what is going on. Check the WB reported AFR. Try a learn on that area and see what happens.

Another trick is to set those areas of the VE table to 0. Thereby creating a fuel cut off that is more controllable.

under fairly rapid decel where I might downshift from 3rd to 2nd at higher rpms, I will get popping from under the car

Look at the log file, is it going into DFCO? Maybe not enough DE? Can also set the low MAP VE table areas to 0 % VE.

Finally on cold start, I do get a lean surge happening until about 50C then motor calms down.

This in open loop still? If so go to the open loop AFR vs CTS & VAC table. Decrease the commanded AFR by .5 to 1 AFR in those areas. Surging is typically lean.

To get the vacuum, read the MAP at key-on, engine-off. Then subtract the running MAP value from that for vacuum. If key-on, engine-off MAP is 95 KPa, and the idle is idling at 60 KPa, the vacuum will be 95 - 60 for 35 KPa VAC.

Lower the entire area around the 35 KPA VAC point. This extends out to 0 KPa vacuum. It needs to be richer as the vacuum decreases.

RBob.

Val Snyder

Really glad to see discussion on this stuff. Should HIway be disabled as well until tune is refined? More questions, on the original 7747,Main Spark Bias is treated differently by different definitions and I am of course confused,Does the Main Spark Bias act as a negative value? That is in TunerPro the main spark table should appear the same on the ebl (with additions) as it did in the before converted 7747 and the MSB goes away (not added in)? I have read the tuning section several times [yup, I'm kinda thick on this stuff] and belive I've done the recomended changes on the bin but wonder if you (or any one)may have additional recomendations for an engine with the following mods. Small block Chevy, 350 bored .060, (366 cu in) forged flattops, 9.23 C.R. 1.6 Ex. valves, ports and bowl areas cleaned up,volume matched chambers, JBA shorties , w heatedO2, 2 1/2 mandrel bent exhaust with X pipe + dual tubo mufflers,MSD 6 ignition + wires, roller tip rockers,Comp Cams 265 DEH-10 (110* separation , timing@ .006 IN.open 27* BTDC close 58*ABDC Duration@ .050 211* Duration@ .006 265* Gross lift.44. At tappet .295 Ex. open 69*BBDC close 20*ATDC Duration@ .050 221* Duration@ .006 269*Gross lift .465 At tappet .310) Air cleaner is an open K&N during the winter and the stocker w snorkel during the summer both minus the "choker "coller, Holley 670 502-6 3210 F.P. set to 14PSI.BPC set to 120. If you don't want to touch this I certainly understand. The cam was supposed to be "computer compatible" It runs in a 3/4 ton 4wd Sub on 16 inch tires. Thanks for all your help so far, Val

TierAngst

Dewey thinks I might need to play with Pump shot a bit since I've got so much knock, he said something about throttle transitions and pump shot fixing it. I'm all sorts of lost but I showed him a screen shot of the options for AE and he wasn't sure how the EBL handled things like AE vs Map and AE vs TPS.

DM91RS

Rbob............thanks for the DFCO info. After editing the bin and driving all is well now. The car is very smooth off idle and down low in the rpms. Return to throttle is smoother and no stalling. I now have an idle that goes down as hoped for on clutch in and idles lower and better than ever.

Now for more fuel up top.....Oh and did I say I like this ebl/wb set-up

TierAngst

What is this? "Overflow on VE: (X) RPM, (X) KPa" I've got this multiple times at different rpms and KPas. It comes up under the VE Learn in the WUD.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

Dropped the VE in the 20kPa cells and that significantly helped the exhaust popping. Also played with the O/L CTS v MAP v VAC as you described. Helped the lean surge at initial startup. Also played with DFCO and that helped the trailing throttle stumble. I'll keep you and everyone posted. And thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In the EBL the main SA table WYSIWYG, no bias involved. In an ECM such as the '8746 the main spark bias is subtracted out.

Yes to disabling hiway mode. Can then do the VE learn to dial in the VE table. Once that and the spark looks good can then re-enable it.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is similar to the '7747 AE. There is a delta MAP and delta TPS tables. Same with the MAP & TPS filter tables. Just more granularity and extended in range. One addition is the AE vs. RPM table. A larger value will generate more AE. Is the pinging is one general area? Does the engine temperature affect it? May want to pull some tining with the IAT/CTS compensation table. Ths has a bias value, so an entry less then the bias will pull timing out.

What is this? "Overflow on VE: (X) RPM, (X) KPa" I've got this multiple times at different rpms and KPas. It comes up under the VE Learn in the WUD.

The VE went over 100%. If the DC% is under 85%, then can rasie the BPC. Otherwise will need to raise the fuel pressure. This can also be caused by a failing fuel pump or clogged/restricted fuel filter.

RBob.

TierAngst

I highly doubt that it is the fuel filter since that is less than a year old, the pump may be the trouble spot but I doubt it... honestly think I can just program in more fuel still. What part of BPC do I change, filter, vs vac, or vs baro? I've been looking closer at my BLM and I'm waaay lean and my DC never goes above around 65%. Pinging is not really in one general area its pretty much everywhere except real low RPM.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

What part of BPC do I change, filter, vs vac, or vs baro?

Change the BPC vs. Vac. The BPC filter is for when a vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator is used. It is to slow the change in BPC to accomodate the lag in the response of the regulator.

The BPC vs. Baro is to compensate for backpressure on the exhaust system as the elevation changes.

Pinging is not really in one general area its pretty much everywhere except real low RPM.
Audible? Could be caused by the lean AFR. May want to pull some timing until the VE tables are squared away.

RBob.

89stroker

i'd just like to say how happy i am with the EBL at this point. for a week or so i was trying to get my VE tables right when the computer thought it had a 2 bar MAP.......ya.....wasn't workin out so hot. but now that i have the MAP set to 1 bar, its been getting better and better. it used to stumble all over its face when i'd start out, from a stop, but now it doesnt. the main thing is that my IAC makes tons of noise and doesn't seem to shut up. i'll try to get a log later of what it thinks its doing.

the weird thing is that when i was tuning with the "2bar" i never had any pinging whatsoever. but when i switched to 1 bar i was getting quite a bit of pinging even with low BLMs. i lowered my SA main table by quite a bit, and hopefully later this evening i will input a table from a stock BIN and see how that works, but why would there be so much difference between the 2?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

With the 2 bar MAP sensor setting the ECM was getting that your engine was under more of a load than it really was. Like 2x the load. This keeps your timing more retarded. It is also likely the cause of the black smoke you were seeing.

Val Snyder

Say there, fast 355,oops, I mean 89 stroker, I don't know much (and therefore stand a good chance of being wrong) but my guess is that the switch from 2 bar to 1 bar forces the fuel table to read from a different area. I am somewhat lost (there's a surprise)concerning offsets, previously on a 7747 with an adapter (G2?) and 29c256 chip offset was buffer 000000>000FFF , Chip 007000>007FFF when I attempt to burn the modified EBL bin into a chip, the address shifts to 004000 >007FFF. Should the correct addresses be 000000>003FFF (Buffer),004000>007FFF (chip)? Thanks to all, Val

89stroker

ya its all good now though. it runs way better now. the black smoke was kinda funny.......i could've convinced some of the idiots around here it was a half diesel half gas engine.

i guess that makes a lot of sense, because it seemed like it took nothing to get a 100 MAP reading, and i always thought that 100 MAP was WOT, and i could get it by like tapping into the throttle.......dammit chris. j/k.

now i just need to get it to not idle so damn high right away when i shift into park from drive.

89stroker

is my IAC too high for how fast i'm going? it seems like i hear it whistling a lot lately.

i don't know why those are so incredibly small. photobucket must have resized them.....

Val Snyder

Finally burned a chip 29c256 (004000>007FFF) and it seems accepted, (one flash) but with engine running ses stays lit, code 12 and 34 is set. Max kpa engine off,key on is 87(from old log, conversion formula the same [ads vs ebl xdf]-can't use wud as laptop is female and converter is 80 mile drive away) old log Warm idle is 675-725 @from 40 -42 KPA,Should default kpa be reset to around 90? IS Map hi baro limit cool at your setting of 67.98 or should it be closer to warm idle, maybe 45? TPS is at around .5v idle, should I be looking at a tps vs map relationship?. Nalpha is disabled as well as Hiway and DfCO + openloop idle+cruise till the VE tables get sorted out.Don't know about the dist. ref pulse. Added the iat and hijacked the egr grey to serve it, ground was made common with cts. Any advice would be appreciated, Thanks, Val

TierAngst

I've been getting the whistle as well.

Val Snyder

Check out Rbob's message about setting the butterflies vs iac back on the last page concerning DFCO stall , % of throttle follower is another .. the iac will also get very active trying to keep the engine running if the fuel tables are off,Found cause of code 12+34,the dummy (that would be me) missed theC11 hole with the MAP input ,due to great luck nothing seems to have fried (no skill involved here). Bottom end seems greatly improved(gotta try to kill it) couldn't get over 5MPH as the humongous clods make er pretty rough, am gonna head to town tomorrow so expect a fresh round of pestering after that. Thanks, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With a code 12 the engine shouldn't be running. That is no distributor reference pulse. Are you running sync or async fueling? If async it may be a bad ignition module.

Code 34 is MAP low. When set means the MAP value is defaulted by the ECM. Via RPM & TPS%. The MAP sensor is ignored, which may be why the BARO values also seem to be off (the ECM won't use the MAP sensor for the baro reading).

In your later post your mentioned a bad solder joint. Yes, that can cause issues. I would duoble check your install of the EBL board along with the ECM grounds to the engine block. The DRP has it's own ground to the dristributor via the 4-wire connector. Double check that none of the pins are pushing out.

RBob.

liquidh8

Well, I finally managed to get a wbo2 hooked up (thanx rbob). I disabled the closed loop, and set the BLM's to 128. Seems fueling was way off in alot of ares. Even though I did the blm ve learn. One thing I did notice though is when I am in the gas it gets REAL rich, like 10:1 afr. I was wondering if anybody had some suggestions on how to go about tuning this thing. It runs good down low and part throttle. I think the VAFPR has alot to do with it. Should I disable PE and tune the ve tables?? Should I drop the upper kpa areas to compensate for the high fp and lower bpc, or does the lockers do that?? etc. I just don't want to go chasing my tail here. Thanx all.

89stroker

on my way home tonight the IAC pegged at 200 and stayed there. then when i got home and put it in park it "idled" up to like 1600 rpms. is there a stock LO5 IAC routine that i could get somewhere to copy and paste into mine. my fuel isn't THAT far off, but i know something is a little screwy.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

When in WB VE Learn mode the desired (or commanded) AFR is compared with the WB reported AFR. Adjustments to the VE table are made from that comparison. Going into PE mode has the same comparison taking place. Once the BPC vs. VAC table is set then adjustments should be made via the VE table.

Note that lack of, or too much AE will make the VE table look incorrect. The learn process does take this into account, but if the AE is way off it can carry over into the VE Learn.

RBob.
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When this happens check the 'Idle' indicator. The ECM must be in idle mode before controlling the idle speed via the IAC.

If it isn't in idle mode most (99.9%) of the time the throttle is open a little. This is enough to have the TPS% larger then the idle threshold. When this happens give the throttle a quick blip. Most of the time this is enough to seat the blades down. After doing this give it a little time to bring the idle down.

I've taken to increasing the idle TPS% thresholds (upr & lwr). The WUD will show both the Idle indicator and the current TPS%.

If the IAC is ever at 0 steps and the idle is high, then it is a vacuum leak.

RBob.

liquidh8

ok, thanx rbob.

DM91RS

When changing (increasing) the fuel pressure do the following need to be changed to the new calculated lb/hr:

1. DGD- Injector flow scalar
2. INJ- MPG Injector Flow Constant

Or does just the recalculated BPC need to be changed?

Thanks

DM

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It is also possible that the minimum air rate on the TBI is mis-adjusted as well. I ran into a situation where a 4.3 TBI actually made a 350 idle at 800 RPM with a closed IAC. I figured vacuum leak, but I was wrong. After repeated searching, I readjusted the screw on the TBI.

TierAngst

Well according to the BPC on the stock bin I have 61pph injectors (I always thought L05's came with 55pph) but then either my fuel pressure is higher than it should be or something else in the engine isn't running up to par because with the stock injectors setup I'm running fairly rich around 117-121 BLM at cruise. I'm going to knock the BPC down a bit to get it leaned out, hopefully soon though I can get a fuel pressure guage and a timing light to make sure those are both in check. Is there anything else I should check to see is wrong while I'm out buying tools/parts?

TierAngst

Just remembered something, when I throw the timing light on there and lets say its reading 3* advanced instead of 0* as required by my car, can I just set the "SA - initial SA" to -3* or will I have to physically move the distributor? I won't have access to the my distributor bolt tool for another week so I was hoping to just program the change.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Would need to change both whenever the flow of the injector changes. Number 1 is only required for y-body digital dashes. Number 2 is used for the WUD MPG display.

Either one may need to be tweaked, as there are other factors involved in the actual MPG.

RBob.
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Yes, yes, so true.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to set the BIN initial timing to 3 deg (not -3). With that the timing tables will reflect what the at-crankshaft timing is.

Timing light and fuel pressure gauge is a good start. Will need a method of connecting to the supply line near the TBI unit. Need to remember that a liquid filled gauge is only accurate at room temperature (72 deg F).

RBob.

Val Snyder

Ran the sub to town today, it ain't near perfect but is better than the custom $250 chip was. Problem is I cannot hook up the laptop to check out the WUD as the supplied adapter is female and so is the only 9 pin port on my lap top, NO one in the nearest town (40 miles each way) has a phone to 9 pin or to usb or male to male or even a male 9 pin.Radio shaft was a gonna order em a while a go but might be able to get em by monday) Great selection around here. SO, can I do a butcher job involving either a pin between females, (proper orientation lost?) or cut an end off of a usb to cat5, splice on a phone connector, and come in on a usb port. (who goes where). OR cut off the usb end , splice on the phone connector and come in on cat 5 port, Could it be so simple as plugging the phone line from the ebl into the modem port? I readily admit ignorance about this stuff and appeal to those with knowledge about the devil computer, Thanks to all, Val

TierAngst

You can't use the modem unless you write your own software to use it as a serial port, I'm going to assume you aren't willing to do that so we'll say the modem is not an option. The female 9-pin port you mentioned on your laptop, is it blue? I'm going to guess that it is your video out incase you wanted your laptop hooked up to an external monitor. You may want to order a serial to usb converter online, I know at least I've posted one that I know works and a few other people have mentioned what works for them. Mine is the Belkin PDA to USB adapter, works like a charm after using two others one that didn't do anything and the other crashed my computer.

Val Snyder

Thanks, pretty sure I at least would be dead of old age before software was written by me (no clue whatsoever bout that stuff) or for that matter by any one else with my severly limited understanding of this dark art (humor ,man). Yup, it's blue(had to look, blue means video out?) so your drift is to go 9pin male to usb ? PDA = 9pin? Thanks, Man. Ugh is there any other way to montior? Would TunerPro need a different ADS? [I might be able to cobble up an ads over the next 6months to a year]does the ECM continue to send over the aldl after EBL?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The original ALDL output is still in place. If you were a WinALDL user, just log it via the ALDL using the 7747 or 8746 definition file (they are both accurate on my scan tool). You will lose alot of the benifits of the datalogging program and the baud rate, but you will get some of the information you need. I use both.

Val Snyder

Thanks, Man This helps, Val

TierAngst

Alright cool, I'll probably end up getting one of those slick Dakota Digital in car gauges if it works with TBI. Could someone check the sender for their fuel pressure gauges for me and let me know if it would work? Fuel Pressure Sender

Here is a pic of the gauge itself if anyone cares

TierAngst

Val,

Welcome to Belkin - USB PDA Adapter



That is the one I have.

liquidh8

I would like to know if that dakota digital would work also. Inexpensive compared to the autometer unit, especially if we are going to hook it up to the ebl, to log through the WUD.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

From what I can tell the Dakota and the Nordskog both use the same basic sensor. It is an Intellitronix unit. This is not a pressure transducer such as the Autometer uses, which is why it is so inexpensive. It has a diaphram with an arm attached to it, the arm moves a lever across a resistive element (like a fuel tank level sensor).

The resistance is measured as the fuel pressure. In order to data log this a pullup resistor to 5 volts is required. Someone would then need to pressurize the sensor and measure the output.

OTOH, I have added the Autometer transducer as an option on the preferences screen. The transducer can be purchased alone for about $105.

RBob.

liquidh8

kool, will you let us know when there is a new version of the WUD??[

Dominic Sorresso

Guys,

Thought I'd share a lit bit of EBL scan from WOT on my motor. Commanded AFR is 12.9.

DM91RS

Dom you show off!!

I wished my wot log looked that good. WB says give me fuel and DC's say no way. There is nothing like being able to see after being blind for so long. I really like the data analysis logs.

Rebuilding a larger poundage injector pod at the moment

Dominic Sorresso

Its really a tribute to RBob and others on this forum like Grumpy. They made it happen.

DM91RS

That's what I meant by my third sentence.

This has made it actually fun to tune. IMHO

TierAngst

Is it really needed to log your fuel pressure?? If you've got a good pump shouldn't it stay the same?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I like logging the fuel pressure while tuning. Having been burned several times it is just something that really needs to be a known. Fuel delivery issues can be caused by many factors. Clogged filter(s), debris in the regulator, clogged return line, bad FP regulator, inadequate pump, low pump voltage, kinked fuel line, trash in the fuel tank, and so on.

If you are tuning and everything is falling into place, then the fuel delivery may be OK. If things are going in circles, then it may be a fuel delivery issue.

The other item is AE. This can take a lot of fuel. A quick/instant drop in pressure from AE demand is not unusual. And is enough to drive a tuner crazy. "Hey, looks like it needs more AE." Add more, and, "that didn't make a difference, what's wrong with this setup?"

RBob.

DM91RS

Rbob I seem to remember a good while back that you were having regulator spring issues that were causing you headaches also.

TierAngst

And I thought DIY tuning was going to be the cheaper alternative, so now I need an ostrich, WB02, fuel pressure gauge with some extra unit and hopefully that'll be it. Oi.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You can get away without the WB, FP, and Ostrich. With a mild to stock motor it's not as difficult and touchy as a high performance motor. And, it depends whether you are looking for the last ounce performance, or just want a decent running engine.

When I did the LG4 TBI engine I didn't put the fuel pressure transducer on it. Wanted too, but connecting it in would take resources I didn't have. So I kept in mind that if things weren't going the way they should, I may need to hook it up.

Then the WB didn't go on until near the end. It helped refine the AE and verify WOT was OK. I auto-tuned the VE tables with the NB. If your VE tables are coming together, and WOT NB is in the upper 800 (880-900 mV) range, then you can wait a little on the WB.

OTOH, for anyone starting with a modified motor, heads, cam, exhaust, carb manifold with a BBC TBI, etc. then I would recommend both the fuel pressure transducer and WB unit right from the start. Just run a new engine a bit before hooking in the WB. Silicones in the gasket sealers will ruin O2 sensors.

RBob.