RBob

iTrader: (1)

The scroll line doesn't come into play for the times. Place the moment that the car starts to move on the left most of the graph. Basically, pan the graph to the left until the MPH (green) just moves off of 0.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I took a screen shot of when I first see mph. Ran it until I seen 60-mph then let off...

2.8 seconds 0-60 mph
2.0 60 foot

Stock stall was killing the sixty foot...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Can you post the full size image? I must say, that is one strange acceleration curve. As you mention the converter isn't quite right.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Will do you one better, sending you that entire datalog in email...

You'll see that boost comes in hard after 4000-RPM, the run starts at 3:47...

ownor

iTrader: (5)

ok so last weekend did the breakin of a flat tappet 350 in a 84 vette, converted to a BBC TBI from CFI. it has patriot freedom heads, a xfi280 cam and a weiand single plane.
so far it looks like it all went well with the break-in, thank god.

now i have a question.. i always keep forgetting things about tuning unfortunately
it's pretty lean until it warms up. it stumbles a bit, a littly shaky and likes to cut out. cAFR seems fine during warmup and it runs pretty steady as the WB matches the cAFR from about 70-80°C upwards (although it's rich around 12-13 AFR, but we figured better be safe for the break-in). what can i do to better match commanded and measured AFR in cold engine conditions? i don't think VE is too far off because of the behavior with the engine warmed up.
another thought is that it might also be too rich? it jumps alot between say the 15-16 and 21 AFR range (max for the ZT2 WB). if i remember correctly the WB will read lean if it misfires or is too rich?
also, the WB is located just one or two inches before the pipe ends. for now running open y-pipe. could this be a problem here too?

thanks in advance for any input here.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It never will as the WB sensor isn't going to get a good read on a cold engine. Too much of the mix goes out the exhaust as the burn is poor.

Need to get at least 2 feet (1/2 meter) of pipe past the sensor. Currently air is pulled pulled back into the pipe.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[another thought is that it might also be too rich? QUOTE]another thought is that it might also be too rich? [/QUOTE]

Possibly not. May be the characteristics of a single plane with considerably large runner volume and cold (until heat sunk) causing fuel to condense on runners and fall out of suspension. There is a table for coolant temp that needs to be modified to allow more OL fuel say under 70dC(170dF). More choke enrichment and longer choke duration but use baby steps on that.

My set up is much like yours currently except a Holley dual plane TB manifold. Cold environmental temps require longer idle time B4 I drive off. needs heal sink.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Ok, but with the mixture only partly burnt, i thought it would just read real rich then? Providing the sensor has heated up to some extent here.

Gotcha, that's kinda what I was thinking. Would this effect appear a bit less for off-idle, say >1.5 or 2k rpm range?

Good point on the fuel condensation on cold runner walls, yeah. However, I dont know which tables you are referring to. Maybe yourself or Rbob can shine some light on this? I had a look at:
Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC
Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS
...but imho these only modify the commanded AFR, which seemed fine (<10 AFR after cold starting at around 10°C CTS).
Basically, the way I understand it is that the engine is too lean in the choke/warmup phase.

Also, is it possible that not all cylinders are up yet on a freshly rebuilt engine that is cold and has barely done more runtime than the flat tappet break-in?

Thanks!

heat soak?

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

hey rbob I was going to do an update on my ebl p4 for my tpi engine I notice there is one from aug 2014...I got the ebl in 2013.
if I do it will I loose my current calibration?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No loss of the current calibrations when updating the ECM firmware. The update program reads the calibrations out, updates them, and saves the new calibrations on your laptop. These new calibrations are also flashed in with the updated firmware.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

One thing I'm not quite clear on concerning updates... When you run the update program, the EBL Firmware is updated, and then the Flash calibrations via the process you described. So, after that, an older version calibration cannot be run on the same EBL, right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It depends. From EBL Flash firmware version 2.0 to any newer one, no, the older calibration will cause a flashing SES/CEL and limp mode. This was done on purpose as calibration tables were moved and redesigned for V2.2+

Between V 2.2 and 2.4 the calibrations are mostly compatible. Take the addition of the reverse lockout feature. The updated calibration gets 5 MPH placed in that parameter location.

Using the old calibration has it at 0 MPH (since it wasn't used). Does it really matter? Only if you are using the reverse lockout feature.

Going from 1.0 or 1.1 to 1.2 of the EBL P4 Flash firmware is the same way, incompatible.

But with the updated calibrations being created for you, just use those.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I am grinning ear to freaking ear now...

Thanks Bob, you da man...!!!!!

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

i have a question in the SA-LAUNCH MODE can i put negative values so i can retard timing instead of adding?
i just want to use it to control wheel spin.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Can't use LM for timing retard. If you update to V 1.2 of the EBL P4 firmware there is a SA reduction versus MPH and a SA reduction for 3rd gear and 4th gear. The 3rd gen 700R4 only uses the 4th gear switch, so can trigger 3rd gear via push button on the shifter to the EBL ECM.

The SA reduction versus MPH can be populated at lower MPH values. Although the intent of these features is to lower the SA during higher load. No reason they can't be used in another manner.

RBob.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

I already updated to version 1.2...how do I lower the mph values?
to use this table I will need to lower them from 0-60mph... in 5mph increments is this possible?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Just looked at the SA reduction vs MPH table, we started it at 48 MPH, so that isn't going to work. Forgot about that starting point.

Which leaves the 3rd gear SA reduction.

RBob.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

If I am understanding what he is asking and how you responded, there is no way to have it set up to retard timing off the line to control wheel spinning? I've got the Flash not the P4.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I always thought that it was better to correct the traction issue then it was to pull power from the engine.

RBob.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

It was something me and my boss were talking about when he brought up some new class they are doing at the local track that is running street tires only. Aside from suspension upgrades I wouldn't be able to just throw on some slicks or drag radials to correct the issue. He asked me if my tuning software could allow me to pull power from the engine up to a certain mph to reduce wheel spin off the line.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

anyone maybe have an EBL Flash for sale? figured i'd ask here as well.. domestic shipping, no international.. need to send it to rbob for portmod.. link to WTB thread
thanks and sorry if anyone feels this is spam

whatif3387

I need some advice or input on something I noticed yesterday while data logging. The weather and roads have been to bad to do any driving so I decided to try making some improvements to my cold idle which I did successfully. After having warmed up the engine I revved it a couple of times to 5k+ rpms 5600 max. Looking at the datalog of having revved the engine my injectors were going static showing 120-150% DC. When first cracking the throttle I would hit AE then when it transitioned to PE they would go static. Running on the road with my stock shift tables which I havn't changed yet it shifts at 4000-4600 rpms and I've never seen more then 70% DC at that RPM but then again I havn't taken the engine up any higher then that. From what I've read my engine combination should net around 300-320 HP at the crank and using the WUD utility with 80# injectors at 15psi I should have what I need to support my engine. So I'm either making more HP then I thought or what I noticed is something specific to revving the engine with no load and possibly my AE being way to rich?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Can you attach that .dat file so we can take a look...

ownor

iTrader: (5)

in idle, do you see reasonable DC with the VE and BPC you set depending on the injector size and fuel pressure? it _could_ be a problem in fuel delivery, i think?

whatif3387

From what I recall my DC is around 2-4% at an idle of around 600 rpm. So far everything I've encountered with my logs things have seemed to be in check but I havn't really pushed the engine very far do to spending alot of time wasted trying to improve a sluggish timing table lol. I just went back to the vortec timing tables provided with the EBL. I can post the .dat and a .csv later this afternoon when I get home from work. Here's my engine specs incase someone thinks i'm wrong with my hp estimate I think the 300-320hp i've read people mention with similar setups is a generous number but this is my first v8 project so I lack the experience to make an educated guess.

Stock L31 vortec longblock
GMPP TBI intake bored to match a bored 5.7L TBI
80#inj's at 15psi
1.6 RR
Longtubes with y pipe to 3" no cat and flowmaster 10 series
Open Element filter
Electric fans.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Looking at your injector flow rate, I am pretty sure your 80# injectors are maxing out at your suggested horsepower level. With the addition of the 1.6 roller rockers, open element air filter and free flowing exhaust, your more than likely making more horsepower than you think. I have you at 335-Horsepower at 100% Duty Cycle running 2 80# injectors, and .48 BSFC. You state your reading 15-psi in fuel pressure? Do you mean at the higher RPM's? If so, raise your fuel pressure in incriments until you see 80% Duty Cycle in those upper RPM areas, and relearn your lower VE to compensate for the increased fuel pressure needed up top...

whatif3387

I don't have a VAFPR just an adjustable regulator on the injector pod which is set to 15 psi at idle. Revving the engine and looking at the gauge i've never seen it move around on me. I've never revved the engine that high and checked my pressure though. I did have an issue when I first put my build together where my pressure would max out but this was because my return line was taking to sharp of a turn when making its way back into the fuel tank. BTW what does "BSFC" stand for?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It stands for Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. Your fuel pressure is dead headed at 15-psi, and without any vacuum control, your fuel pressure will not rise along with engine demand. You would need to raise fuel pressure up to satisfy your fueling needs at higher RPM, then tune the lower part of your fuel table to compensate for the added fuel pressure. At 15-psi, your delivering 80# of fuel per hour. If you increase your fuel pressure to 18-psi, your injectors are now flowing 87# of fuel per hour, and this is enough to satisfy your horsepower up top while bringing your duty cycle down to 90% in those RPM's, which is not ideal, but safe nonetheless. You just need to then re-tune your lower fueling table...

whatif3387

I'm following you but if that's whats been my problem I'm either using the EBL WUD utility incorrectly or that the WUD Utility program is just to get you in the ball park as far as the BPC is concerned. Using the utility I would input my injector size 80#'s and then I was adjusting the fuel pressure input to show me 320hp at 85%DC. Which is how I came up with 15psi, I was adjusting the fuel pressure in the program until I found the pressure needed to feed the amount of hp I thought I would be making. Then I set my regulator to 15 psi. I'll have to take a look at the utility program again when I get home today it's been a long time since I've used it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The WUD utility program is perfect, but you have to remember that as RPM increases above your target, so does your fueling requirement. The amount of Duty Cycle you are seeing at your injector size and fuel pressure requires over 100% Duty Cycle to satisfy the horsepower you are making at that RPM, and much credit goes to you for putting together a very strong and good running engine. The Duty Cycle will either increase substantially up top when the injectors are sized "just enough" for the horsepower being made at 80% Duty Cycle, or fuel pressure will increase and the injector Duty Cycle will remain and average the same, 80%. Either way is getting the job done, we just tend to not want the injectors going static and doing most of the work, so we stick with the latter of the two; and allow for a rising fuel pressure regulator to maintain 80% at your 15-psi base fuel pressure, or without a rising fuel pressure regulator and set the pressure higher than your base fuel pressure...

whatif3387

I've attached a excel file that I cut out of the whole log since it was so big.
I also can't attach the .dat as its to big but the excel file should show you the same thing. The even happens between 10:28 and 10:30.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Okay, I just downloaded it and looked. I see what is happening. Right when your Duty Cycle jumps to 91% (at 4200-RPM) from 46% (at 4100-RPM), take a look over at your spark advance. Your spark advance is at 32* at 4100-RPM with a Duty Cycle of 46%, but then it starts to drop to 27* at 4200-RPM with a Duty Cycle of 91%, and then to 13* at 4600-+RPM with a Duty Cycle of 153%. Your main spark table is skewed, you should be maintaining full spark advance of 34* from 3000-RPM all the way up. Not only does your spark advance come in too late at 4000-RPM, but it starts going back down after that. Have it reach total timing by 3000-RPM (which you seem to have at 34* total), and keep it there at high RPM's...

whatif3387

The reason the SA fluctuated as much as it did was because I got a bunch of knock and it retarded the timing ive been chasing knock for awhile i believe its coming from the EGR tube I have routed to close to my headers and firewall. The knock did get a little worse after I went back to the provided vortec timing tables. After reading your post I checked out a previous datalog where I had a spike to over 100% duty cycle it seems to happen during AE? because there's no knock counts and smooth timing when that occurs and it was at a low RPM around 1600-2000. After AE the DC drops back down tp 60-70% until it shifts at 4000 rpm. My fuel pressure definitely needs to be raised some as I plan on raising my shift points at least another 1k rpm to 5k. Is it possible to have your AE adjusted so rich that it can over power the injectors? And as far as the SA tables go I've been cutting and pasting tables out of the provided .bin files and making adjustments from there are you suggesting I make them more linear like how the "Extended SA" tables look?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your base timing sounds like it may be off. Where is your base timing set to with the EST disconnected and distributor turned by hand? Around 8*? Are you sure you have your spark reference in the bin reading in that same general area, 8*? Your idle state is at 22* from the datalog, but could be false if your reference is off. Your O2 sensor only reads oxygen in the exhaust, and if your timing is being pulled due to knock as RPM's increase, you will have no combustion and extra oxygen in the exhaust, and the O2 reads that extra air as being lean, and duty cycle increases to compensate...

whatif3387

My initial SA timing is set to 0* and my distributor matches at 0* with the EST disconnected. When I first installed the motor I did have it come loose once and it was very noticeable the power dropped off tremendously. The motor I installed is a GM L31 vortec long block from jegs. It came with a stock vortec timing cover with a built in balancer pointer and a harmonic balancer. The balancer wouldn't work with my tbi pulleys so I used my old tbi balancer. Other then the length of the input shaft they look identical. I attempted to verify the 0* marking on the balancer with a piston stopper but the one I installed never came into contact with the piston lol. But judging them to be the same my base timing should be 0*. This past year i've always thought the knock was coming from the tight clearance of the EGR tube I ran which I need to reroute. Or even possibly my roller rockers? Some say the stock springs can handle 1.6rr and some say they can't..

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let me take a look at the bin, can you email it to me?

whatif3387

Sure PM me your email.

whatif3387

I may have found a possible culprit. I only copied the vortec main and extended tables over because the .bin name specifically said main and extended tables only. Looking at the initial SA in the provided vortec bin EBL_F_3000 it's set at 6*. I'm wondering if I should have used this value as well and set my distributor to match?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The base timing by hand and your spark reference (Initial SA) must equal the same value, it could be 0 or 6*, they just need to be the same because it is your reference. The idle state is what matters, and I believe yours is at 22* as per the datalog, which is good. However, if the base timing and spark reference (Initial SA) were not the same though, and are off from one another, then that could be an issue. PM sent...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I had to download the EBL Flash WUD and XDF to see the data you sent me on this new laptop, as I keep forgetting it is TBI. Yes, your Initial SA is set to 0, with your Idle State set to 22*. So long as your distributor really is set to 0 by hand with the EST disconnected then you are fine. The values in your SA Main Table get very low in the 100-kpa column as RPM's increase, you should raise them according to the MAP/RPM reading in your datalog. I am showing 18* at just about 5000-RPM; datalog shows 4800-RPM with your MAP reading 96-kpa, and your timing value in that cell is only 18* in your SA Main Table. The neighboring cells aren't quite high enough to raise its' average. Even the 305-TPI bin is at least 26* in that particular kpa/RPM cell. I would try another SA Main Table in which will bring the values you need closer to your total timing, as well as do a few more VE Learns to smooth it all out...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... you basically brought your base timing from the stock 6* setting down to 0, then you raised the stock Idle State setting of 20* up to 22*, and you didn't touch the SA Main Table. Try this, put the base timing back to 6* with the distributor as well in your spark reference (Initial SA), put your Idle State back at 20*, then run the L98 SA Main Table (3005). Better yet, I just saved a bin for you that way. Changes made were;

Initial SA changed back to 6* (was 0)
Idle State changed back to 20* (was 22*)
SA Main Table changed to L98 (was your Vortec)

Try that bin with those changes and run some VE Learns to smooth it out...

Email sent.

whatif3387

Thanks for helping me out with this i'll test out the changes as soon as I can but it might be a couple of days before I can actually drive it. It's supposed to snow all day here in south Jersey. I hear the weathers supposed to finally start to warm up within the next week hopefully that's true!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I know, I woke up to a foot of snow early this morning here in Central Jersey and have been shoveling ever since. Next week is calling for 50 degrees, finally. Let me know how everything goes...

whatif3387

I havn't got a chance to try out those timing tables you configured for me. I wanted to verify my TDC location since I'm using my old TBI balancer and the new plastic vortec timing cover. Looking at my old and new timing covers the 0° mark looked to be in a slightly different location. So I made a piston stop to verify and it's 2-3° off. I made a drawing in autocad to illustrate the difference. Which way would this put my timing by having it set wrong would it be advanced further then what the WUD is showing or retarded from what the WUD is showing? I also pulled both valve covers to check my valve lash I havn't checked them since I installed the motor. It was my first time setting up valve lash with hydraulic lifts and roller cam. I set them to what I believed was zero lash then half a turn and tightened the lock nut. No up and down movement in the push rods but I could spin them with some resistance. Now about 1500 miles later checking them I can still spin the pushrods but it takes a little effort to turn them. I believe they may be to tight what kind of tuning issues could I expect from this if this is the case. When using a vacuum gauge it idles steady with no flucuations.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

.

In your illustration if you used new TDC your engine would be more retarded timed at TDC than the old TDC.

Keep in mind that timing can also be affected by the latency of the ignition control module in use. The 048 style module retards the timing about 6* above 3,200 rpm and the 369 advances an additional 2* above 3,200.

The stock cam and high dynamic compression ratio prevent the factory L31 engine from accepting more than about 24-26* of timing on 87 octane. The factory L31 will make peak power and tolerate 29-31 maybe even 32* of total timing but only if you keep it under 180*F and stay under 26* until above 4,000 rpm and only on 93 octane.

whatif3387

I do have a spare 369 ICM that came out of my old distributor but I'm currently running a petronix distributor with their flamethrower ICM. I'm also running a 180° t-stat and 93 octane. When I pulled all of my plugs they all looked good atleast they should for only having probably less then 500 miles on them except the plug from cylinder #6 which was covered in black soot! I found that odd I'm not sure if it's just due to fuel distribution between cylinders or that plug wire is bad or my valves adjusted incorrectly? I've been chasing the same issues for over a year now. Sluggish power which I attribute to never being able to get my AE to stop pushing my AFR to 10:1 and knock related issues. As well as every once in awhile my duty cycle will just max out over 100% sometimes during AE. Lol every single time I think I have one area of the tune figured out I end up throwing off another. Which is just how tuning is but the frustrating part for me is not being sure weather an issue is mechanical or due to the tune itself. I'm going to increase my fuel pressure from 15 to 18 psi in the next week or so hopefully that cures my duty cycle issues. I'm going to try a few different timing tables to see if anything changes with the knock issue. For awhile I believed it to be something I had routed coming into contact with my header and firewall but the other day I started taping around the engine and headers with a hammer while watching the WUD and it was actually harder then I thought to generate any knock counts.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

A 0° mark that is 2-3° off going in a clockwise direction would indicate 2-3° retarded.

They are fine. When you initially installed them you were able to turn the pushrods with ease because the lifters weren't full. When you check them again at a later point in time, always allow them time to bleed off first, then check them. Steady vacuum with no fluctuations is the sign of a healthy engine...

drive it

iTrader: (1)

Could use some help.....
Attached are a few datalogs.
I had it running strong with an old ball drive paxton sc, and just swapped it out for a procharger p600b.
Now it doesn't want to spin it past about 4400rpm.
Keeping on the rich side for now and conservative spark-same as before.
First datalog it went to 5000rpm and 12 lbs boost. Then dropped to 8lbs.
The rest went to 4400rpm and stayed 7 to 8 lbs boost.
If belt slip, then engine rpm should still run on up yes?
The last datalog I pulled the fuse on the water injection to rule that out as I increased the jet to 15gph from 12. No change. Been running straight water only.
If spark blowout-why would it start now? (has a msd 6a) Old sc would still push 5 to 6lbs boost and never a problem-strong to shifts.
I keep going thru the logs and can't pick out anything.
Thanks, Pete.

Update-cooled off enuf to pull the plugs. ac-delco 41-602s. all look good except one with tip burned off. borescoped that cylinder and it looks good. I had them all gapped to 40 thou; but they've opened to about 42/3thou now. May well be even the msd can't push enough spark for that gap.....again was fine before with the lower boost paxton-just a few more lbs of boost blowing them out????
Will get a new set and gap to 28thou.
But could ya'll take a look at the logs and see if that adds up, or something else I'm missing.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I am seeing spark advance at 40* with little to no TPS%, and then I am seeing 23* at 100-kpa, then I see 15* at 3-psi of boost, and 14* at 6-psi. You only need to pull 1 to 2 degree's of timing for every pound of boost being made, so if your total is 40*, at 6-psi your advance should be somewhere around 28* - 34*, and at 8-psi, your advance should be somewhere between 24* - 30*, and at fifteen, your advance should be between 10* - 15* and there it should stay. Other than that, your fueling looks fine.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Take a look, your boost is at 7-psi, and your spark advance is showing 14*. RPM is at 4150, and it can't seem to go any higher than that with the TPS steady at 100%. It is hitting a brick wall at that RPM because your timing/combustion is off...