RBob

iTrader: (1)

This thread explains it, post #12 in particular:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...gn-iii-pw.html

Yes to the row ordering. This was changed from Tuner Pro V4 to V5. Although in V5 the row ordering can be changed back.

RBob.

tuningnewb

At WOT my AFR is going richer and richer the longer I am on the throttle. I've been bringing the VE down at the higher RPM to try to compensate,but that doesn't seem right. (for example my VE is now lower at 5000 than at 4500) Should I be doing something with PE instead? I was thinking that PE should decay out faster, but not sure if I am on the right track or not. I have the default value of 18 in there now.

The PE target is set at 12.8, but I'm ending up at 10.5 by 5000 RPM, blowing right thru a nice 12.7 a 1000rpm earlier.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is normal for the VE to drop off once past peak torque. The VE table at 90 - 100 KPa will follow the torque curve of the engine.

RBob.

CORV3TT3

You might have to "walk" it in if you can't get the WB to pick it up. I'd love to tell you that every time I cruise through high RPM and WOT that I get a good VE learn. What I have found helps is looking at the dump file and the 1/4 visual graphs. Data tells me at what RPMs I'm too rich... so I'll lower the VE there about 3-5%... flash & repeat.

Example... max torque for me is 4400rpms. There is a 23% decline from 4400rpm (max torque) to 5600rpm (5300 max hp & then shift point is 5400). My VE table drops 5% at 4800... and then 7% from 4800 to 5200... and then 11% from 5200 to 5600.

You may not need that progressive of a decline- your cam, heads, car are different. Sharing with you to elaborate on Bob's reply with an example.

tuningnewb

Thanks CORV3TT3. I am finding the same that I don't get the good learns at WOT as I do at partial throttle. It does learn some, but it doesn't fill in the grid consistently, so I am following your advice above.

tuningnewb

Is there a recommended setting for the MIN and MAX CTS values in the preferences for VE learns? Right now my min is 150F. Should I lower it?

I see that when I start up cold my WB shows very rich. (Richer than the cAFR).

Should I lower the MIN CTS to better learn this condition, or is there a different parameter that I should change to get the cold start AFR match up to what is being commanded?

Dominic Sorresso

Just curious as to how you guys are accounting for the affect of the AE pump shot on your PE AFR?

CORV3TT3

I would set the CTS temp for closed loop at around 80* C if you have a 180 T-stat or 92* C if you have a 195* T-stat to get a good foundation for your VE table.

You may OR may not have to adjust the IAT/CTS - Blend Filter and / or the Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS once you get the base down. Those depend heavily on intake, snorkels, heat transfer, etc.

If you have not made changes to the air delivery routing (i.e.- you are using the OEM air cleaner box and or factory ducting) then use the settings from the most similar BIN to your car.

If you have a different intake, intake plumbing / routing, etc... then you will likely need to adjust other settings within a given BIN. This is especially true when you are creating a tune where EBL does not have a similar/close BIN!

Start with a fully warm engine for VE learns. A cool or almost warmed up engine may add or subtract VE and that will make your learns and table inconsistent. That will drive you nuts- adding and taking VE away.

Get the fully warm table nailed down- and then adjust the CTS value for closed loop.

When your learns at cooler coolant temps add VE or take it away... I would adjust the nearest value on the Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS to compensate.

If you are adding VE or taking it away when the ambient air temperature increases or decreases but your engine is fully warm... I would look at the IAT/CTS - Blend Filter. Also look at where your IAT is located- it can get heat soak (too warm) or not represent the actual ambient air charge (too cool).

Food for thought based upon my experiences to date...

CORV3TT3

Since it is a defined pulse width... AFR is whatever it is at the time and then AE just lowers it through that defined pulse width as it is delivered. I look for it to take me from where ever it is at the time during closed loop to the right AFR for WOT. That's what I understand at least.

During PE mode... the VE table creates the end state AFR at any given time with inputs from PE and AE's settings- AE itself isn't targeting an AFR if I understand it right. So it's a balance to get the table right and AE to fill in the change in demand- or at least that's how I've understood it.

I try to get it to drop about about 3 AFRs when I stab it if I am in closed loop and going into PE. So... from 14.7/15.1-ish during closed loop down to 11/12 flat (TPS AE & then fill in the rest with MAP AE on the VE table) and then let the VE table handle it from there. At 11, that may be a bit rich- but if the AFR was at 15 and I don't add enough... well, that's not ideal either.

I have a little "walking in" to do on the VE table in between 1600 and 2000rpm at 100kpa's when launching off an idle. I was dropping to about 10.4 at 1600 @ 100kpa... but the mid rpm stabs while driving are about right on. After studying the amount of AE for everywhere else, I am adjusting the VE at those lower RPMs and KPAs during a launch off idle.

I think that's right... but y'all have been doing this a lot longer.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

That's for a combination of AE & PE? I thought for AE it's best to target some AFR a little richer than stoich and call it a day. Then for a transition into PE with AE on as well, it can be kinda hard to dial it in for the various conditions.

and yeah, longer maybe but not sure about better

CORV3TT3

Yes- I was talking about AE during PE mode.

tuningnewb

Thanks. Good info. Though my question is not what Temp for closed loop, but rather in the PREFERENCES section of WUD, what value should be set for the MINIMUM CTS for VE Learns?

My commanded AFR at cold start looks like a good number, but my actual AFR from the WB is about 2 points richer than commanded. Not sure if learns at a lower temp are in order, or if one of the CTS, Choke or Open loop tables should be changed. I'm not clear on which parameters would change what is being commanded (which already good) vs. which would help get the actual in line with what is commanded.

CORV3TT3

Set it for 180-195 degrees if you are looking to tune it at its fully warm state. Set it for lower if you are using VE learns to understand how much you need to raise/lower the CTS multiplier so that you can walk the settings in before it is fully warm.

I will typically adjust the Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS based upon what a cooler VE learn tells me. If it is lean- I'll add/subtract increments between 5-15% based upon how far I am off.

Choke isn't for very long. When the engine is cool and has been running for a few minutes- its going to be your Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS table that does the work.

So... think of things in reverse.

Tune the VE for a fully warm and leave that as the setting.

Then adjust the % in areas (temperature ranges) where either lean or rich on the Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS table BEFORE fully warm. That table will add or subtract for the entire VE table for you.

If it were me... I'd use VE learns on anything under a fully warm engine for a direction to go in terms of +/-. I don't update the VE table with those learns because I'd chase my tail with a tune because it would be compensating for cooler, denser air seen when the engine isn't fully warm. Instead, I'd use those learns to tell me if I need to add or subtract % to Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS.


In your case...cAFR is good but you are saying you are running too rich once you are warm. Sounds like you need to lower the Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS table for the temps where you are too rich. So in other words... you likely have a negative number and you need to move closer to zero.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

10.5/12.8=.82

Appears the VE table is too fat/rich in those cells you are seeing rich PE. I would multiply the values in those cells by .82 or .85 and see if it leans out the PE.

If the AE overruns into PE(should show on analysis) or A/F graph changing the AE filter value should help....

tuningnewb

Thanks for the info on the AFR Multiplier. As you predicted, I had a few negative values in there. I move the values in the 60-110F degree range to zero. That helped some. Instead of an AFR nearly 2 points richer than what was being commanded, its only about 1 point richer now. As it warms up, it gets closer to the commanded value.

Since I am already at zero, can I go positive with the values, or is there another table I should look into tweaking?

CORV3TT3

I'd leave the areas where you are at zero alone. Don't go with a positive value.

Your tune- the VE, AE, everything else- should be from fully warm. So, do the learns when fully warm. So then... I guess I'd ask if your fully warm state is getting you +/- 1 to 3 on your VE learns. Or are you still rich there?

Out of curiosity- where is you IAT located and what BIN are you using as your base tune?

What I found over the last year... was that if I had a significant mismatch for the IAT location and what it should see versus where I have it and the table I am using... was the calculation of the air density would be off and that would throw open loop off.

In other words... the IAT will tell the engine the air is denser OR thinner than it really is if it isn't close enough to reading and reporting what is in fact going on relative to the blend filter.

The OEM air duct work made a big difference and that in turn drove me to really play with the calibration settings for the IAT/CTS - Blend Filter. As an example, from what I understand... BIN 3001's calibration for that filter is for a car where there is minimal heat introduced into the intake tract- so it is desirable to use a greater bias to the IAT. Meanwhile TB3 is for a vehicle where the intake snorkel and airbox create fairly warm air and the air temperature is impacted by the coolant temp- in that case, a bias to the CTS would be desirable.

Location of the IAT plays a big part- as does the blend table- to determine the density of the air mass.

My blend is 60% lower than TB3 across the GmSec range of the table. My IAT is located just in front of the radiator on an '82 Vette. I am using the fresh air chamber within the hood that collects air ahead of the radiator and brings it to the airbox. It tends to warm up during idle and sitting in traffic. Once it starts to move, it takes in a pretty good dose of cooler, more dense air. Comparing readings over about 50 data logs between mornings and afternoons and during periods of denser and less dense air informed my changes.


So... where is your IAT located? If that isn't reporting the right temp and bias... then your CTS AFR multiplier will be off as well.

CORV3TT3

I decided to go back to a setting for AE that used more MAP AE and less TPS AE. Seems I have pulled the AFRs back into the mid to high 11s for AE now from 10.4s at the lowest AFRs I had seen. I wasn't getting a bog but the datalogs showed it wasn't as crisp in winding up. Anywhoo... it's closer to 12.4 right before PE and into PE now more than before (now sitting at 11.7-12.0).

I'd read a few places where crossfire intakes liked a lot of AE. I think I get that now- the intake design's role in atomization, sheer, AE, etc.


Also... speaking of blend filters, open loop CTS multipliers, and what not... I think I also understand why there was a huge water passage under the intake from GM for the crossfire engines.

Without an IAT (the '82 OEM ECM did not have one), I think I can see how the need to get the multiplier right on that intake to get to proper air density meant taking variability in intake temps out as much as possible. I can see how warming the intake up would help get consistency... and what "100% of CTS" would really need to be.

tuningnewb

Yes, once warmed up the ACTUAL AFR is within a couple of points of what is commanded. For example, commanded 14.5 , actual 14.3 - 14.7.

I have a bit of a Franken-motor, so I suspect this is going to take a while to dial in. The intake manifold is NOT cooled. No water passages at all in the intake manifold. I have a homemade 3.5 inch air intake. It draws about 25-30% via the factory cold air intake, and the rest is sucking air from the engine compartment. (don't ask) The car did not originally have an IAT sensor.

The IAT sensor is located in the Air intake at the mid point. Halfway between the Throttle Body and the Air Filter.

This engine is a 4 cylinder. The BIN I am using is the V6-2002, since I do have manual transmission and the 4.3 was the smallest displacement EBL bin I could find. The default IAT/CTS Blend Filter was 100 across the board. This morning I tried reducing it to 50 as a starting point but it made no difference at all in the discrepancy between actual and commanded AFR at idle on initial start up. Commanded 12.5+/- while actual was 11.5 +/-.

Any other thoughts for this Franken-setup?

CORV3TT3

Interesting.

I would be inclined to say that a 4cyl BIN would be helpful for a comparison. My sense would be the devil is in the details in the calibration differences between the 6 and the 4.

RBob- is there a 4cyl calibration floating around?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No, anyone doing a 4-cylinder engine will have it modified. No sense in supplying a stock BIN for something of this nature. Most important is to set the cylinder count for a 4-cyinder. Then select a BIN based on the main & extended spark advance tables and transmission type.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Was actually planning on doing that myself in another build, my buddy runs a junkyard a few townships away, and he had an early iron duke 4-cyl Firebird that I was gonna buy from him, but couldn't work out a title for it though. Not his fault, it's the state's fault, but it would have been a fun little boosted project powered by the EBL system after converting to fuel injection.

CORV3TT3

That would have been neat!

Alas, I have too many ideas for projects and not enough garage space, time, or money.

I can't imagine that I am the only person who suffers from this.

CORV3TT3

On a different note... I've been able to get the car to run quite well in closed loop in deceleration- Option word 3 - bit 5 - OpDcl - with NO bucking.

My air fuel ratio range is between 13.7 to 15.2 with an average of 14.45:1

I've really, really been plugging away at the tune.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Oh you're definitely not lol. I am still struggling with the concept of putting a new crate Hemi in an old AWD Dodge Stealth and slapping a turbo on it. So many projects, so little time. The Iron Duke 4-cyl w/big turbo running an EBL-Flash would be a kick though, especially rolling up to those 4G63 EVO's at the track.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1991sleeper View Post
RBob ! How can I get the throttle follower steps to decay a little faster so the rpms don't hover for quite as long ? Thanks

Guys what am I missing here I have had these tables all over the place and my idle still hangs till I come to a complete stop. What is realistic? Idle is set to 950 and it will idle great but if I am moving at all its 1300 to 1250 some times 1500. I have my IAC @ idle set to 25. Do I need to change something else I am running a TPI FIRST Injection intake with a LS1 style 72 mm which flow 1000 CFM. Maybe I am too used to my stick Jetta any time I push in the clutch its always at idle no matter what speed.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It may also be from the engine coolant temperature not exceeding the idle learn temperature:

IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust

As for throttle follower (TF), there is a minimum amount that is in play whenever moving:

IAC - TF Min Steps

And if full TF travel occurs there is a delay before it starts to decay out on a lift:

IAC - TF Decay Delay

Higher values here is a faster decay of TF steps:

IAC - TF Decay Filters

RBob.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

At stock 80 c setting, engine has 190 degree thermostat and is always around 196 f +


At 4 steps is this the max it will remove when moving?

I raised these numbers and it drops faster but not sooner

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Time to look at a data log and see what is happening.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Which bin did you begin with...?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

3006 seems my problems were VE table and spark related

bphage

Okay, I am at a loss; I am not sure what I need to change to make the idle better. I am in OL idle, e85 is working nicely, I have a cold start data log that then goes to op temp - sorry lap top shut off during part of the log. Just really not sure what I am looking at. I added 75 rpm to the base idle as the car just doesn't seem to like to idle in the 600rpm range... not sure if its my ability or not. Can some one give me an idea of how to work my way through this?

Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Can you post the .dat file, I looked through the .csv but it just isn't the same. As for the idle, what in particular is the issue?

RBob.

CORV3TT3

^ That's a very helpful collection of explanations around how all that works together.

I had been using TB3's TF settings as my base. Car ran well... just seemed to idle down really slow after a rev and some of the behavior around letting off the throttle seemed off a bit- so adjusting those parameters helped a lot.

bphage

Sorry about that, it was too large to just attach so I zipped it but forgot to add it to the previously attached zip

Idle doesn't seem to be as stable as it should... not sure if its lean surg or bogging as its better than it has been and I am just not sure. It looks like the computer is having to work to hard with spark advance and the IAC to keep the idle going. when I bumped up the idle speed the base IAC is now in the 40 step range prior was in the 20 range I can adjust with redoing the minimum idle speed but I am afraid to play with it before others look at the data. I think I need to do something about the voltage and injector corrections as when the fan turns on there is a stumble in the idle... same if I turn on the head lights. Car idles better in gear but if I let off the gas quickly and let it go into idle it will die more so if I am in park but seems to be worse when as the temp increases especially at high 80 to low 90 deg C which makes me think I need to adjust something related to the CTS. So I think I have more than one problem going on but I am not skilled enough to know what the main problem is and how to systematically approach it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No need to do a minimum air idle speed setup, just open the TB until the IAC counts are lower. In the 20 - 25 step range for TPI setup, warm engine, no other loads.

Vehicle voltage needs attending to. The fuel pump voltage runs about 1.5 volts lower then the ignition voltage. With both fluctuating too much. Zero this value:

IAC - Steps for Low BatV

And set this one to 25.5 volts:

IAC - Volt Drop for Steps

That will help steady the idle speed. I also noticed the coolant temperature dropping but no fan indicator on the WUD. It is best to have the ECM run the fan(s) as it can then compensate for them turning on & off.

The VE area where the engine idles is too steep. Note that in a playback how the O2 value oscillates rich/lean. Being in open loop should never drop below 450 mV.

RBob.

bphage

- will do this today its not hard to do.


- I measured the resistance of the wires to the fuel pump, this drop is from the internal resistance of the wires, no corrosion or anything like that but in order to fix this I will need to run new wires I can plan to do this.

- The car has the march under drive pulleys on it, before the car was running in about the 11 volt range and you mentioned it to be a problem so I swapped to the smallest alternator pulley they have... don't think I can get any better than this unless I swap to all original pulleys which of course I don't have and I just don't have the time to make a set of pulleys out of aluminum and cant find nice stock sized billet ones... I am hoping I can live with it. Unless anyone knows of some nice billet stock pulleys I can get?

- Done

I will need to double check the wiring, previous owner did a hack job over there; as I recall I rewired it to the factory diagram. The computer does control the fans - I can hear them come on when I flash the system. They must be coming on as a result of the hard wired under hood temp switch... I know is located in the factory place with the factory wiring but forget its location...

I am sure it is the factory temp switch kicking on the fans... what should I do?


Okay this is what I am struggling with. Should I just raise the VE to like 45 in the 20-40 kpe and 400-800 rpm range and give it a go? (I can try this later today) The computer keeps wanting to take fuel out of the lower areas making it really steep so should I just increase the whole flattened area and keep it at that max VE for where it wants to idle knowing it may be a little rich based on what the VE learns tell me? the waves you see in that area are from the last VE learn it was prior to that flattened at a ve of 40. It is the blending into the 35 and 40 kpa at 700 rpm that starts to give me issues as the VE does increase rapidly at that point.

Edit: okay I went a head and made a series of bins each flattening the VE at 45 46 50 56 60 seems to idle best between 56 and 60. I will keep fine tuning manually to see where it wants to be while hitting the cAFR. 56 was lean and 60 was rich but car seems to like to be richer than the cAFR of 9.5 it was doing better at 8.5 - 9.0. (this is for e85). What I don't understand is I had adjusted the throttle body with the original tune to have 20-25 steps at idle and just changing the VE the idle steps increased to the mid 30s to low 40s.

I am also not sure why the car would just die if I would let the revs drop in park from about 2000rpm to idle. I will report back once I have more to time with the trial and error approach.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The voltage is monitored at the fuel pump relay, not at the pump.

RBob.

bphage

Well, in that case I do have a wiring issue - Thanks I would have continued in my ignorance. Looks like that will need to wait until my next free weekend... I played hooky as much as I could this weekend!

Downzero

My truck is breaking up real bad at the very low load areas in the 2800-3400 RPM range. Is it drowning in fuel? I tried removing fuel by hand in those areas and it did improve.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Downzero, assuming that's during WOT/PE/AE? Generally too rich will make the engine sluggish in response. Does it clear up a bit some time after you put the pedal down?

tuningnewb

I am using a BIN which I think uses ASYNC mode all the time. Well that is what I though since I every time I look, its in ASYNC, but looking more closely tonight at the data log, I notice that for a Second or two at WOT it is going into SYNC mode before switching back to ASYNC.

Is this normal?

Also, at this time of WOT, I am also going very lean. Is the switch between ASYNC and SYNC anything to worry about, or should I just add more AE-TPS PW and AE-MAP PW to compensate for the lean condition and don't worry about what mode its in??

Thanks

ownor

iTrader: (5)

As far as I know the EBL should be using Sync, at least for TBI, or are you running MPFI? For TBI to run Async always, there's a Table called INJ - Async Transition PW, can take a look at that, compare with other bins to see if something's wrong there..

tuningnewb

I have a TBI. I think Async Transition parameter would be applicable to those bins which use primarily SYNC operation. Since I am in ASYNC almost all the time, I'm not sure its applicable.

Perhaps this is not an issue at all, but I thought it was odd that I was seeing this switch for only a second and only during WOT shifts.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

GM used async injection on some/many of the 4,3l calibrations. Not sure why, and IIRC, there were some V8 calibrations that also used async all of the time.

Then again, it may have had to do with the smallish injectors used in the 4.3l engines.

As owner posted it does use the async transition parameters for this.

If you have a short log of the WOT using sync for a short period post and I'll have a look. The BIN would also be helpful.

I've tried full time async on two different vehicles and neither ran as well as using sync full time. These were both V8 engines, one mostly stock and the other modified.

RBob.

tuningnewb

Examples of the issue at 3:52, 4:21, 6:21, 6:26 in the dat file.
Any advice would be appreciated. I was going to bump up the AE-TPS PW and AE-MAP - PW as a next step as well as continue with WB VE Learns.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The reason the ECM goes into sync mode is because the PW gets larger then the async exit PW in the calibration. I double checked the GM BIN and that is how they set up the async transition PW's. This table:

INJ - ASync Transition PW - TBI Only

To stay in async can increase those values (both).

You are correct about requiring more AE, but the injectors are going over 100% DC (see at 6:21). Need to bump up the injector flow.

RBob.

tuningnewb

After 2 months of learning how to tune and chasing hardware issues, I just did my first datalog in closed loop.


I observed that nearly every time I let off the throttle, it would switch out of closed loop and back to open. Is that suppose to happen, or is their a parameter which controls this?




Also, noticed that on the highway, when letting off the throttle like going down a big hill, the AFR will steadily rise and go from 14.x or whatever it was to 19.9. Creating a big gap between commanded and actual AFR. I've done well over a dozen VE WB Learns and am pretty comfortable with where the VE table is dialed in. Is there another table to take a look at relative to DE or is this somewhat normal??

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a forced open loop flag for decel, it is set in the supplied BINs.

For the high AFR during downhill runs, look at the DFCO status. It is likely active, used mostly to protect the cat-con.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Is there any merit to have closed loop on during decel? I mean it's pretty hard to dial in but I'm guessing there's no need to; other than avoiding misifiring or stalling, I'd say decel is not that critical?

tuningnewb

Not sure, but I would think that some momentary spike of the AFR is normal when the throttle is punched, but I don't know how long the spike should last before the AE brings it back to the 12.8 range. Half second ? one second ?

Based on the attached picture, do I need more AE, or is this spike normal?