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What I'm seeing is that with a warm engine, when I switch to park, it seems to hang at a fairly high idle (about 1000 RPM) longer than I expect and slowly walks down to my set idle speed of around 750 RPM. I think it take 5-10 seconds to get all the way there.
Can adjust the "IAC - Park to Drive steps" parameter. Look at the IAC steps while in drive, then again when in park, try about 75% of the difference as the Park to Drive parameter.
I also have a switch set up to tell the EBL to boost the idle to around 1200 and it also takes a really long time to walk up to that speed.
That feature could have an IAC bump attached to it. We didn't do that as it would be a safety issue if the idle speed jumped quickly and the owner left the vehicle in drive.
Is it normal for my Narrow Band O2 sensor to jump around as seen in the attached picture? I attached the data log if you want to look at it.
I have a stock 87 camaro 350 TPI with a auto transmission.
I do have a surging issue that calmed down when I set it to Idle in Open Loop and locked the Idle SA. Not sure if that is related. It lightly surges when braking with it Idling in Open Loop. I know there is another thread about surging, and I can post there later.
I've seen the O2 get jumpy as you show. Not sure why, more so with Bosch sensors. It may also be from the O2 signal wire being too close to a spark plug wire.
I changed the acdelco sensor out for the old bosch I had lying around. it smoothed out some but still jumpy. The wire is running along the firewall and is not real close to the spark plug wires. Any other thoughts? Thanks!
I just recently got my car out of winter storage and am resuming the tuning I started last summer. Thanks to Rbob and others here that have helped with all my questions. The car is running pretty darn good (once it warms up). However I have some kind of intermittent electrical issue.
Occasionally the engine will stutter, and when it does my tach needle bounces around a bit, and the shift light will momentarily illuminate.
I can be cruising along at a steady 2700 RPM, this will happen for 2 or 3 seconds, and then it goes back to normal. I have checked the harness from EBL is grounded tightly, and the engine block to battery ground is clean and tight as well.
Where is my next likely place to start checking? Something up with the Distributor maybe?? Can I set up a volt meter some where to check voltage when this condition occurs ? (Engine = Pontiac 4 cylinder, much like the old Iron Duke)
Occasionally the engine will stutter, and when it does my tach needle bounces around a bit, and the shift light will momentarily illuminate.
Most of the time this is an issue in the secondary ignition system. Cap, rotor, coil, plugs & wires are suspect. Although the distributor pickup coil if intermittent may also cause this.
Most of the time this is an issue in the secondary ignition system. Cap, rotor, coil, plugs & wires are suspect. Although the distributor pickup coil if intermittent may also cause this.
RBob.
Im still chasing this problem. I've changed the Coil, but no change.
I've noticed in the data log that there are random spikes in both VE% and in Grms/Sec around the same time the tach is jumping. Is this just a symptom of the same problem causing the tach to jump, or does it give us any clues into where the problem might be originating?
I've noticed in the data log that there are random spikes in both VE% and in Grms/Sec around the same time the tach is jumping. Is this just a symptom of the same problem causing the tach to jump...
A symptom of the problem, the ECM is seeing a higher RPM and is acting accordingly. So the ICM is also sending the ECM additional pulses. That may help narrow down the issue to the pickup coil and/or the star wheel on the distributor shaft.
I have a 1990 Chevy 350 and had a similar problems several years ago before I upgraded to the EBL and found out the distributors were the problem even though everything tested good. RBob is correct in it had to do with the pick up and star wheel. You can pick up a new distributor lifetime guaranteed at Advanced Auto parts for around $100, at least for my year model truck. That will at least eliminate it.
Any ideas what would cause the throttle to feel sticky from idle, but only with the engine running? And worse in park than when driving? Throttle body is a fresh rebuild, and I just replaced the cable too. It feels smooth and perfect when the engine is off. It feels like it must have something to do with engine vacuum or something, though I can't explain how that could be. Could this be a symptom of the idle IAC count being off?
It could partly be due to a high IAC count. This has the blades closed further then they should. Which can cause them to rub on the bores.
The other item is that the throttle shaft bores are worn. The engine vacuum pulls the blades off at an angle which can cause them to either rub the bore or the shaft tends to hang up on it's bore.
It could partly be due to a high IAC count. This has the blades closed further then they should. Which can cause them to rub on the bores.
The other item is that the throttle shaft bores are worn. The engine vacuum pulls the blades off at an angle which can cause them to either rub the bore or the shaft tends to hang up on it's bore.
If the blades were physically rubbing, wouldn't I feel the issue with the engine off? It feel perfect that way. If the IAC was high and the blades too far closed though, is there anything possible related to the fact that there is high vacuum under the nearly closed blades that might cause some resistance? I know in theory there would be equal and opposite vacuum on each side of the butterfly, but maybe it doesn't quite work that perfectly in real life.
It's always possible that the shaft mechanism is worn, but this is brand new (to me) rebuild from RV Morse. It seems really nice just working it by hand.
Anyway, can you remind me your preferred procedure is for getting IAC counts right? I should check that off the list first. What I tried to do before was monitor the IAC on WUD at idle and adjust the idle stop until I had some small number. What count is preferred?
The throttle shaft/blades are offset a smidgen so that vacuum pulls them shut rather then open.
Interesting, so then if IAC was very high, indicating nearly closed butterflies, it's not unreasonable to hypothesize vacuum resistance to opening them. Right?
Out of curiosity, any idea how high IAC would typically go to maintain idle with the throttle closed?
Interesting, so then if IAC was very high, indicating nearly closed butterflies, it's not unreasonable to hypothesize vacuum resistance to opening them. Right?
Not something that I've tried. The vacuum against the plates will be the same even with high IAC counts.
Out of curiosity, any idea how high IAC would typically go to maintain idle with the throttle closed?
Well, it was idling around 35 steps, so I pushed it down to 7. I think the feel has improved a bit, but I haven't really driven it yet (out of time for tonight). I'm not a fan of the hard pedal on GM TBI in general, I'd like to find a way to lighten it up, but that's pretty much a mechanical problem...
After changing the cap, rotor and tach filter, with no progress on the issue, I replaced the Ignition Control Module, and it looks like that solved the problem. Went for an hour long drive yesterday with no sign of the problem reoccurring.
On the EBL P4, is enabling the smog pump as easy as setting AIR - CTS enable threshold to 14.75*C and AIR - O2 adjust air in divert to 101.77mv? Those are the values I'm seeing in the stock AUJP bin.
Also, for the charcoal canister, I'm only seeing CCP - CTS enable degrees and CCP - BLM Min for Limiting. Nothing like the TPS%_enable, TPS%_disable, MPH_enable/disable parameters found in the AUJP.
The type III injectors flow more fuel at small PWs then at larger PWs. Because of this it is best to zero out the low PW offset table. As that table can only add to the injector PW at 3.9 mSec and less.
With that here is the data for the injector at 44 psi, values in mSec:
In the EBL P4, I see a INJ = small pw correction table and a INJ -injector correction offset table. I assume the values listed above go into the injector correction offset table - however, there are voltages above and below 6.4V and 15V. What values should I put in those rows? I'm also unclear of what I should be zeroing out. All of the small PW correction table?
Last edited by Dartht33bagger; 05-25-2016 at 08:04 PM.
On the EBL P4, is enabling the smog pump as easy as setting AIR - CTS enable threshold to 14.75*C and AIR - O2 adjust air in divert to 101.77mv? Those are the values I'm seeing in the stock AUJP bin.
That's it, although the O2 adjust should already be set in the supplied BINs.
Also, for the charcoal canister, I'm only seeing CCP - CTS enable degrees and CCP - BLM Min for Limiting. Nothing like the TPS%_enable, TPS%_disable, MPH_enable/disable parameters found in the AUJP.
The type III injectors flow more fuel at small PWs then at larger PWs. Because of this it is best to zero out the low PW offset table. As that table can only add to the injector PW at 3.9 mSec and less.
With that here is the data for the injector at 44 psi, values in mSec:
In the EBL P4, I see a INJ = small pw correction table and a INJ -injector correction offset table. I assume the values listed above go into the injector correction offset table - however, there are voltages above and below 6.4V and 15V. What values should I put in those rows? I'm also unclear of what I should be zeroing out. All of the small PW correction table?
Yes, the above goes into the "INJ - Injector Correction Offset" table. Use the 6.4 volt value in the lower voltages, with the 0 volt entry being the same as the 12.8 v entry.
Then extrapolate the 15 v value into the higher voltages. I use the graph in TunerPro to do this.
This table gets zeroed: INJ - Small PW Correction - PORT Only
I completed my L31 swap today. The motor fired right up, set the timing to 6* and was able to drive it the 4 miles home from my grandpas house with no issues. I was so worried my base tune wouldn't be good enough for some reason. The new engine feels 1000 times better without even being dialed in yet compared to my 305 with a blown piston ring
I did a datalog on the way home for the fun of it but no VE learn yet. I'll start on that this week. Looking over my datalog, it looks like my IAC at idle is 0. This isn't surprising since I maxed out the screw on my stock 305 before the swap to get the idle up high enough to pass emissions. It looks like I need to back my idle screw off my throttle body to get about 10 steps in at idle (or at least that is what I have been seeing thrown around as a number). Hopefully that will fix my 30-40 KPA of MAP at idle as well? Or is MAP at idle supposed to be that high?
It also appears I'm lean in closed loop. BLMs in the high 130s and low 140s. No knocks in the log or that I could hear while driving. It looks like I entered and exited closed loop a few times driving. Is that normal?
I'll attach my datalog. If someone would be kind enough to look it over and confirm or correct everything I've said above that would be great . I'm ready to start dialing in my idle!
I don't think VAC has been changed due to IAC nor T-S-S. A trade off. Having it at 0 just means it(ecu) cannot reduce idle speed if needed.
You are fortunate you are very close.
My port fuel conversion went very well from prior TBI. Seems fueling A/F is better calibrated with PF out of the box. I idle at 45 MAP 224/230 @ .05. In CL idle I am still lean. Not sure why? May be over lap. Adding more fuel seems little change.
It was going well, running better than ever before, then it went downhill fast. Ignition module went south and i barely made it home. New delco module, it starts and runs good except now its oscillating. At 5% steady throttle it goes between 1450 and 1750 RPM's,wide band from 12.5 and 20 AFR. Tried another module and the same thing. It does this in open or closed loop after running about 30 seconds. I think I pulled muscle in my brain. Any ideas?
I took my car out for the first day of tuning today. Got my IAC locked in at 23 steps at idle. Doing 3 VE learns while driving around, I'm still coming out lean across the board. My idle was coming up at 151 BLM with 66 as the VE value in the 40 KPA 700 rpm cell once I adjusted the IAC at the end of my datalog. Across the board my VE values are getting kicked up. Almost every cell is trending toward the 60-70 range.
My O2 sensor also seems really odd. At idle the O2 voltage is constantly swinging all over the place. Swings from 800mv to 100mv and back seem the most common. Swings from 800mv to 400mv are the second most common. I assume this probably isn't normal. Is my O2 sensor bad? I do have Dyno Don headers if that matters.
Thanks Bob. Good to know. I'll put that in my cheatsheet.
I'm on my 6th bin after 6 VE learns and my VE table values are getting VERY high, but I'm still running lean across the board. My idle is getting better but it still looks weird. Spark advance swings between 17* and 22*. At 17* I can hit a BLM of 128. At 18* or above I hit a BLM of 136. It looks like fuel is being added (at least I'm down from the 151 BLM I saw when I set my IAC to 23 steps at idle a few nights ago), but I will need some more.
My VE tables as they sit right now look like this. They look weird to me. Doing a comparison from my starting BIN and my current BIN, I see a lot of cells that have 10-16 added to them and I'm still in the 136 BLM range roughly across the board. Is it normal to have VE cells this high in the low rpm range? I'm assuming everything is fine as long as I'm at not 100 right?
Next time I go out I'm just going to focus on dialing in the idle. I've been driving around the last 2 days I went out tuning.
Last edited by Dartht33bagger; 06-09-2016 at 02:39 PM.
My WB is showing super rich (nearly 10.0) when going from coasting 0%TPS to light throttle 10-20%, for a second before it corrects. Throttle is applied very gently and not quick or aggressive.
I lowered AE- dMap at 10 by 5% and I've also done 2 iterations of lowering AE - dTPW at 3, 6 and 9 by 5% each time, but the condition doesn't seem to change.
Am I changing the wrong values, or do I just need to be more aggressive with lowering these values? Screen shot of the tables is attached.
You can increase the DE, but only to a point. On a TBI (wet flow) there is a bunch of fuel left in the intake manifold that gets pulled off. That is where most of the richness comes from.
Delaying the closing of the IAC reduces the rich spike at the cost of the engine taking longer to slow down. Can change it until it works for you.
Been over a year since I've posted. Ever since I had the EBL tuned its been running perfect.
Anyways I am working on a couple of small things that never got hooked back up. One being my cruise control. My question should be fairly easy. In the tuning to the EBL Flash is there anything that would not allow my cruise to turn on? I do know that the VSS does play a part in the cruise control.
Vac has been tested, Fuse is new. Figure I'd ask before I really dig in.
The EBL Flash won't affect the cruise control (CC) function. The P4 and SFI-6 ECMs can affect the CC function when used with a magnetic VSS. As those ECMs can also buffer the VSS and provide the pulse streams to the dash & CC.
The EBL Flash won't affect the cruise control (CC) function. The P4 and SFI-6 ECMs can affect the CC function when used with a magnetic VSS. As those ECMs can also buffer the VSS and provide the pulse streams to the dash & CC.
RBob.
Thank you for the response. I figured it didn't but figured I'd ask...
Just installed my EBL flash over the weekend, got it running but still working to figure things out.
One question; for the SA main table, am I correct to take the settings from "EBL_F_3006.BIN: 5.7l TPI, 6-spd, alum heads (Port Mod)"
Car specs 350 CFI (84 vette)
Intake: Renegade
Heads: Aluminum (edlebrock)
Exhaust Long tube headers w/3in exhaust
Cam'ed
Probably not, the timing is too conservative and has the TPI long runner dip. Although, can always try it. Make up some different BINs with different Main & Extended SA tables. Flash each one into the next bank in turn. Can go out and switch between them.
For a more aggressive timing use the 3001 main & extended SA tables. Make sure to get the fueling in line before going WOT to the shift point.
Now that I have my engine running pretty good, time to focus on staying cool. I'm trying to hook up my A/C for the first time. How do I verify that everything is set correctly in the ECM?
Currently A/C not giving ANY cooling. Obviously it could be out of freon, but want to make sure everything else is working correctly. Seems like the A/C clutch has not physically engaged.
When I engage the A/C, my radiator fan comes on, as it should, so that's good. Also on the WUD, I see both lights A/C Rq and A/C On get enabled. Not sure what the distinction between them is. I'm guessing this what I should see (though more confusing is that I disconnected the PRESSURE CYCLING SWITCH at the Accumulator to probe the voltage in the connector. I do get 12 volts there when enabling A/C however in this mode the A/C lights on WUD don't come on. I would think that when voltage is probed here would be the same as having the switch closed and fully operational. Don't understand why WUD doesn't enable the A/C lights in this case. )
Also noticed there is an Option Word 3 for A/CHi. Mine is currently unchecked. Not sure under what conditions this should be checked.
Anything else I should check in the ECM/EBL Setup before getting the Freon Checked or looking for other mechanical issues
Buy a cheap ac gauge set, I have one for R22 I bought for my house, it fits perfectly on my R12 fittings.
Further I bought some adapter fittings for my other vehicles using 134a.
Ac is stupid easy, one tip is when adding refrigerant; go slow, like add a little and wait.
The gauge set is useful to see general low pressure side settings, and then if you can connect to the high pressure side, look at the pressure differences.
My R22 set worked fine for the low pressure side, but not the high pressure side.
I ended up converting the fittings to 134a, and then I use the adapters to view both sides.
Youtube has a few how to's to explain how to read the gauges in greater detail.
Now that I have my engine running pretty good, time to focus on staying cool. I'm trying to hook up my A/C for the first time. How do I verify that everything is set correctly in the ECM?
What vehicle and year is it? I ask this as it varies as to whether the A/C is ECM controlled or not. The '88 - '92 f-body TBI setups and not ECM controlled. There is an input to the ECM for when the A/C is active. This is for an IAC and idle bump. Most trucks are not ECM controlled, but have found some that are.
The A/C Rq is used to request the A/C be activated on a car that the ECM controls the A/C compressor.
On a car that the A/C isn't ECM controlled it means that the compressor has engaged.
A/C On is the command from the ECM to engage the A/C compressor via the relay. Which can go active whether the A/C is ECM controlled or not.
What vehicle and year is it? I ask this as it varies as to whether the A/C is ECM controlled or not. The '88 - '92 f-body TBI setups and not ECM controlled. There is an input to the ECM for when the A/C is active. This is for an IAC and idle bump. Most trucks are not ECM controlled, but have found some that are.
The A/C Rq is used to request the A/C be activated on a car that the ECM controls the A/C compressor.
On a car that the A/C isn't ECM controlled it means that the compressor has engaged.
A/C On is the command from the ECM to engage the A/C compressor via the relay. Which can go active whether the A/C is ECM controlled or not.
RBob.
Car is a 1984 Fiero.
I think I see my issue. I am using a 7747 wiring harness. I had initially connected up pin B8 to the Pressure switch, but I over looked A2, because the wiring harness didn't have a wire or even a terminal pin in that position. However the Fiero does use the ECM to switch the A/C relay. Any chance I could also run the relay from B8, so I don't have to worry about trying to add a terminal to the connector?
Can't use the signal from B8 to run the relay, just won't work. The easiest thing to do other then use A2, is to pull the relay from the socket and jumper socket terminals B & E together.
That will be the BRN to DRK GRN wire. That will jumper across where the contacts are/were.
Have an issue with my LC-2 wideband that I just wired up. I have it wired to the ecm and also wired into my old gauge from my previous Prosport brand wideband.
The issue I seem to be having is that if I program the LC-2 to be 0v=10AFR and 5v=20AFR for both outputs and then compare the gauge to the WUD I am showing the ECM as reading about 1AFR leaner then the gauge is.
If I compare the gauge to what the LC-2 datalog program is reading they both are pretty much spot on. So something with the ECM is getting a false reading. I even tried using the same analog output for both the ecm and gauge and still have the same results.
Any ideas on whats going on? I have the settings correct on the WUD side of things I am almost positive.
Likely the WB device in the WUD isn't set up correctly. Can measure the voltage at the ECMs terminal strip and verify it against what the WUD is reporting. The conversion from voltage to AFR is:
Likely the WB device in the WUD isn't set up correctly. Can measure the voltage at the ECMs terminal strip and verify it against what the WUD is reporting. The conversion from voltage to AFR is:
AFR = (VOLTS * 2) + 10
RBob.
Used a digital voltage tester and did the conversion. When I sit engine off key on it reads correct 20afr for the 5V it is getting. I compared the voltage the ecm was getting to the voltage the gauge was getting and it was the same. With the engine running the voltage was still the same between the gauge and ecm. But the ecm doesnt report the correct AFR readings through the WUD. I both the WB analog outputs and the stuff in the ECM set to 0V=10AFR and 5V=20AFR.
Then either the LC2 output isn't set up for 10 to 20 AFR, or there is a ground offset between the LC2 and the EFI harness grounds.
The LC2 analog and heater grounds should go to the engine block. Same as the gauge's analog ground.
RBob.
I will look into the grounds. I've checked and double checked that everything is set to the 10 and 20 for AFR. I know my ground isn't to the block right now. I will get them relocated and see what it does. Thanks for the help so far.
I just noticed today a mild surging at low speed - NOT idle, but low RPM under some load. One place it was apparent was going slowly up a steep hill (15-20 mph or so). I realize this could be lots of things not related to the TBI, but is there anything I might check into related to the EBL/TBI? Hopefully my transmission isn't going out (TH400).
04-10-2016, 01:07 PM
