Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
12-17-2007, 07:58 PM
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Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
I have a vortec PCM with an Intel AB28F400BX flash chip that Im wanting to desolder and read. Can this be read with my PP-II with the adaptor from xtronics for the 28F400? Kinda looks like it should. It seems that pin wise, the major difference is that the write protect for the one in the PCM is done via a 0/12V signal to the chip rather then a pin.
Additionally, I wonder how hard it would be to socket the PCM for development? Are those sockets a pain to use?
Additionally, I wonder how hard it would be to socket the PCM for development? Are those sockets a pain to use?
12-18-2007, 10:21 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Looks like a normal memory device to me. Should be a non-issue to read the device. It might not reprogram the device, depending on if the sectors are write protected.
12-18-2007, 10:51 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Cool. Now I just have to get it off without destroying it...
12-18-2007, 12:21 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
We use Hako hot air rework station to lift multi-pin (40+ count) IC's from PCB's without damage to both. 28F400 is (was) used for CPU boot block flash memory and uses standard 44-lead PSOP pinout that follows the industry-standard ROM/EPROM pinout (2, 4, 8 MBit - 28F200, 28F400, 28F800) which all have been updated over the years. Other than Intel other semi vendors can supply this part:
SST SST39VF400A, SST39LF400A
AMD AM29LV400
ST Microelectronics M29W400
Atmel AT49LV4096, AT49BV4096
http://www.intel.com/design/flash/su...d/bb/index.htm
//RF
SST SST39VF400A, SST39LF400A
AMD AM29LV400
ST Microelectronics M29W400
Atmel AT49LV4096, AT49BV4096
http://www.intel.com/design/flash/su...d/bb/index.htm
//RF
12-18-2007, 05:07 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
I was looking into getting one. Seems like $150 might be easier than trying to desolder each pin or use some hot alloy bath.
12-20-2007, 03:15 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Just out of curiosity, how hot do you have to get these to desolder the chip? I would imagine that GM used leaded solder as it was made back in 97. Maybe 190 deg C? The chips maximum storage temperature is given as 150 deg C, so it might be better to just heat the leads and shield the chip? On the other hand, I would imagine that the soldering was done in an oven, but I wonder if the high temps will alter the data on the chip?
12-22-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
We use a hot plate to preheat the PCB to about 100C. Once at 100C a quick pass with the hot air dis-soldering tool takes care of the lead solder. Use tweezers to pull chip of the PCB. My guess that Delco used standard SN64 solder back in the early 90’s. //RF
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12-23-2007, 02:26 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
You can desolder these with a fine tip iron and a good strip of desolder braid.
I used to do it on ls1 computers when I was working at MMS .
Use the braid to wick away as much solder as you can, then use a very small flat screwdriver or something similar and put it under one side of the chip. Apply VERY SLIGHT pressure to pry that end up and start heating the pins. they will come loose one at a time. BE CAREFUL not to to use too much pressure or you'll bend the pins all up and possibly warp the chip too. After you get it loose clean the board's pads with your desolder braid.
Its been 6 years since I did any of these but I think i used to set my iron at around 700 degrees (could be wrong). The Iron I used (and still use) is a Weller EC4001 ESD. it has a very fine tip and gives me a reading of the current tip temperature.
I did possibly up to 100 computers this way and only ruined one. after the first few I was able to remove the computer from the car, open it up, pull the chip and have the pins cleaned up enough for the ziff socket on the programmer in under 20 minutes. re-soldering only took a few minutes.
Don't be afraid, just be careful.
Ps. I'd love to have one of those hot air systems, and all the proper stuff for SMD work, but it is possible without it.
I used to do it on ls1 computers when I was working at MMS .
Use the braid to wick away as much solder as you can, then use a very small flat screwdriver or something similar and put it under one side of the chip. Apply VERY SLIGHT pressure to pry that end up and start heating the pins. they will come loose one at a time. BE CAREFUL not to to use too much pressure or you'll bend the pins all up and possibly warp the chip too. After you get it loose clean the board's pads with your desolder braid.
Its been 6 years since I did any of these but I think i used to set my iron at around 700 degrees (could be wrong). The Iron I used (and still use) is a Weller EC4001 ESD. it has a very fine tip and gives me a reading of the current tip temperature.
I did possibly up to 100 computers this way and only ruined one. after the first few I was able to remove the computer from the car, open it up, pull the chip and have the pins cleaned up enough for the ziff socket on the programmer in under 20 minutes. re-soldering only took a few minutes.
Don't be afraid, just be careful.
Ps. I'd love to have one of those hot air systems, and all the proper stuff for SMD work, but it is possible without it.
Last edited by The_Punisher454; 12-23-2007 at 02:31 PM.
12-23-2007, 11:50 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
I was thinking of trying that. Wicking up the solder and gently doing each pin.
I was also thinking of trying some of the low melt desoldering alloy to either desolder the chip one side at a time, or do each pin and lower the melting temperature enough that I could desolder it all at once with hot air. Messy, but at least I could keep the chip itself cool while I desolder it. According to the datasheets, once the solder has mixed with the alloy, it melts at less than 150 degrees C, which is within the limits given for the chip.
I was also thinking of trying some of the low melt desoldering alloy to either desolder the chip one side at a time, or do each pin and lower the melting temperature enough that I could desolder it all at once with hot air. Messy, but at least I could keep the chip itself cool while I desolder it. According to the datasheets, once the solder has mixed with the alloy, it melts at less than 150 degrees C, which is within the limits given for the chip.
12-24-2007, 12:40 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
I never ruined one with my iron. I set it at an angle after wicking as much as possible away and gently ran it across the pins at a fairly high temp (around 700F) while applying GENTLE upward force on the chip. After getting the hang of the technique they'd come off really quick, without actually getting the chip all that hot.
There was no mess after cleaning up the solder pads with the iron.
I will say one thing for sure, dont try it on the later computers (like on a trailblazer) with the flexable board, instant disaster.
There was no mess after cleaning up the solder pads with the iron.
I will say one thing for sure, dont try it on the later computers (like on a trailblazer) with the flexable board, instant disaster.
12-24-2007, 04:31 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
You don't have to worry much about it. If you use hot air or an iron, just stay on the pins as short as possible, and you are fine. Run the iron between 700-780F so that you quickly melt the solder. You really have to sit there to end up cooking the chip. Its worse to use low heat and cook the part rather than quickly heat the pins. That's why irons run up to 800-850 usually. Its a factor of time vs heat.
if you don't have a hot air gun, use the wick to wick away as much solder as possible, then lay an xacto blade as low as possible and slip it under each pin as you heat each pad to pull it away from the board, remove heat and slip the blade out. no solder joint. next pin.
with hot air, gently pry on the chip while applying heat to the pins on the side you are lifting. once they all melt, the chip will give. repeat for the other side holding the chip with tweezers. that is the least amount of heat the chip will get.
I have yet to really cook anything that didn't have a super heat slug on the bottom. THOSE require board preheat and if possible, an automated set-up.
if you don't have a hot air gun, use the wick to wick away as much solder as possible, then lay an xacto blade as low as possible and slip it under each pin as you heat each pad to pull it away from the board, remove heat and slip the blade out. no solder joint. next pin.
with hot air, gently pry on the chip while applying heat to the pins on the side you are lifting. once they all melt, the chip will give. repeat for the other side holding the chip with tweezers. that is the least amount of heat the chip will get.
I have yet to really cook anything that didn't have a super heat slug on the bottom. THOSE require board preheat and if possible, an automated set-up.
12-26-2007, 02:11 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
If you need any help with this just let me know. I've got a big box of old chips pulled from the LS1 stuff as well as a bunch of PCM cores and pin headers. Be glad to help if I can, just say the word.
I use hot air, passing it back and forth across one row of pins while lifting gently. You'll hear it start 'cracking' when it begins letting loose. Once one side is lifted, then you do the same with the other and some tweezers.
After removal, I use a Hakko 808 *sweet* solder sucker gun to suck everything up. Then I clean it, flux it, and solder back down whatever is needed, 63/37. Clean up the flux when you're done.
I have seen where too much heat (and time) will cause the pads to lift up off the board. This is a bad thing. Use the minimum amount of time and don't go overboard on the heat. Also don't force it. Keep moving the air back and forth, you've got to get it all hot at once, so be quick about it before half of it cools back down.
----------
And yes, the PP2 works fine, you just need the correct adapter.
If you don't want to invest in the stuff, I've got it and will help as needed.
I use hot air, passing it back and forth across one row of pins while lifting gently. You'll hear it start 'cracking' when it begins letting loose. Once one side is lifted, then you do the same with the other and some tweezers.
After removal, I use a Hakko 808 *sweet* solder sucker gun to suck everything up. Then I clean it, flux it, and solder back down whatever is needed, 63/37. Clean up the flux when you're done.
I have seen where too much heat (and time) will cause the pads to lift up off the board. This is a bad thing. Use the minimum amount of time and don't go overboard on the heat. Also don't force it. Keep moving the air back and forth, you've got to get it all hot at once, so be quick about it before half of it cools back down.
----------
And yes, the PP2 works fine, you just need the correct adapter.
If you don't want to invest in the stuff, I've got it and will help as needed.
Last edited by Craig Moates; 12-26-2007 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-27-2007, 12:11 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Holy mother of god that was a pain in the ***.
I got the chip off with only a few slightly distorted pins, but it wasnt easy. As usual, GM dipped the PCB in that splooge to water proof it. Not only did it repel the chip quik desolder alloy (worked great on a similar clean SMD), but the entire back of the chip was coated and basically glued to the PCB. I couldnt feel when one side was getting ready to lift and didnt want to heat the chip iself up, so I had to do each pin one by one and then jimmy it up and cut away the garbage behind it with an exacto to lift it off. What a PITA. The board itself cleaned up real nice with solder braid, but the chip pins are still coated in that gunk. What disolves it real well without possibly harming the chip? Paint thinner seemed to work over the short term, but I dont know if Id want to do a prolonged soak in it, and the pins have already been through enough, so I dont want to manually clean them and risk breakage.
Craig, even though its done, thanks for the offer. Also, is it possible to socket one of these PCMs? Id rather use my PP2 rather then try flashing it if I ever get into development.
I got the chip off with only a few slightly distorted pins, but it wasnt easy. As usual, GM dipped the PCB in that splooge to water proof it. Not only did it repel the chip quik desolder alloy (worked great on a similar clean SMD), but the entire back of the chip was coated and basically glued to the PCB. I couldnt feel when one side was getting ready to lift and didnt want to heat the chip iself up, so I had to do each pin one by one and then jimmy it up and cut away the garbage behind it with an exacto to lift it off. What a PITA. The board itself cleaned up real nice with solder braid, but the chip pins are still coated in that gunk. What disolves it real well without possibly harming the chip? Paint thinner seemed to work over the short term, but I dont know if Id want to do a prolonged soak in it, and the pins have already been through enough, so I dont want to manually clean them and risk breakage.
Craig, even though its done, thanks for the offer. Also, is it possible to socket one of these PCMs? Id rather use my PP2 rather then try flashing it if I ever get into development.
Last edited by dimented24x7; 12-27-2007 at 12:15 AM.
12-27-2007, 01:07 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Aghhhh - that conformal coating is nasty stuff to get off! You can socket that 44 pin Plastic Small-Outline Package (PSOP) flash chip. Meritec Inc is one of few mfgs that makes sockets for PSOP-44: 980021-44-01
Website: www.meritec.com
//RF
Website: www.meritec.com
//RF
12-27-2007, 05:08 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Yep, those Meritec sockets are nice, they look like little beetles or something.
I've got a pile of them if you need some.
Hate that conformal coating, the rubbery stuff is the worst. It's hard to get off, that's all there is to it. You could soak it for a while and then use a toothbrush and razorblade. Biggest challenge will be getting it clean and straight enough to get a good read. You'll probably want to use a 'new' chip after that.
Have fun with the project!
I've got a pile of them if you need some.
Hate that conformal coating, the rubbery stuff is the worst. It's hard to get off, that's all there is to it. You could soak it for a while and then use a toothbrush and razorblade. Biggest challenge will be getting it clean and straight enough to get a good read. You'll probably want to use a 'new' chip after that.
Have fun with the project!
12-27-2007, 09:47 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
That would be cool if you have a few you could spare.
12-27-2007, 10:07 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
"Hate that conformal coating, the rubbery stuff is the worst. It's hard to get off, that's all there is to it. You could soak it for a while and then use a toothbrush and razorblade."
Isopropyl Alcohol and plenty of rubbing will take that stuff off. In old days I used FREON, but that stuff got banned for Ozone depletion. It would take any kind of organic stuff of PCB's in no time!
//RF
Isopropyl Alcohol and plenty of rubbing will take that stuff off. In old days I used FREON, but that stuff got banned for Ozone depletion. It would take any kind of organic stuff of PCB's in no time!
//RF
01-04-2008, 01:17 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
The adapter for my PPII is coming in today or monday. Should be interesting if it actually reads the chip. I found the checksum routine in a similar mask/OS/whatever, but its not a standard sum and compare routine. Looks like its really complicated, probably to make it more difficult to flash the PCM without getting an SES light. It'll probably just take a few weeks to figure out whether or not I even managed to read the entire chip correctly.
01-06-2008, 09:19 PM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Looks like I was able to read the chip. My PP-II was able to read and verify the chip multiple times without issue and the disassembly makes sense. Wont know for sure until I finish the startup and checksum routines and manually run a checksum on it.
01-09-2008, 12:08 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
The checksum wasnt as bad as I thought it would be. Looks like each section of the code is aligned with each section of the flash rom for a total of 7 sections. The checksum is stored at the begining of each section. The code just sums the checksum plus the remainer of the section and if its equal to zero, its good to go. Looks like this can also be easily set up in tunerpro, so in theory, there should be no need for high $$$ tuning software. Free is always good since Im cheap.
Code:
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
; Routine to perform checksum on each section of the ROM
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
LAB_$01AF0:
CLR.L D7 ;Preclear D7
MOVEQ #7,D6 ;7 sections of ROM to perform checksum on
;
;-Look up needed span and start addr. for checksum
;
LAB_00D8:
ADDQ.L #1,D7 ;+1, advance next section to be checksum'd
MOVE.L D7,D0 ;Move into D0 for index
JSR EXT_005D ;Routine to fetch start and span of ROM to perform
;checksum on
BNE.S LAB_00DC ;Bra if checkbyte was !=, checksum failed
;
CLR.L D1 ;Preclear D1
ASR.L #1,D0 ;/2 for double byte blocks
BRA.S LAB_00DB ;Bra to start checksum
;
LAB_00D9:
TST.B D0 ;Test address counter
BNE.S LAB_00DA ;Bra if !=0, contuinue
;
;-Service watchdog between sections
;
MOVE.B #$55,EXT_1E4C.W ;Load $55 into software service reg.
MOVE.B #$AA,EXT_1E4C.W ;Load $AA into software service reg.
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
; Perform checksum on ROM
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
LAB_00DA:
ADD (A0)+,D1 ;+1, add contents of address into checksum
;
LAB_00DB:
SUBQ.L #1,D0 ;-1, decrement address counter
BPL.S LAB_00D9 ;Bra if >0, continue
;
TST D1 ;Test checksum
BNE.S LAB_00DC ;Bra if !=0, checksum failed
;
CMP.L D7,D6 ;Compare current section to total secitons to be
;checked
BHI.S LAB_00D8 ;Bra if current section is <, continue with next
;section
;
CLR.L D0 ;Clear D0, checksum successful
BRA.S LAB_00DD ;Bra to return
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
; Here if checksum failed
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
LAB_00DC:
MOVEQ #1,D0 ;Load D0 with 1, flag incorrect checksum
;
LAB_00DD:
RTS ;Return
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
; Routine to fetch start and span for checksum
;
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
;
LAB_$01B2C
MOVEA.L #$0002000C,A0 ;Load address of index into A0
SUBI #$0001,D0 ;-1 from index
LEA (A0,D0.W*8),A0 ;Load effective indexed address into A0
MOVE.L (4,A0),D0 ;Load offset of end of checksum area into D0
MOVEA.L (A0),A0 ;Load start of checksum area into A0
SUB.L A0,D0 ;Subtract start address in A0 from D0, now span of
;ROM to check
ADDQ.L #1,D0 ;+1 to span
CMP (2,A0),D7 ;Compare checkbyte to D7
RTS ;Return
;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
01-09-2008, 12:50 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Very good progress - I guess I better find a PCM for experimentation. Pull FLASH chip for code dissection and verification. BTW, which PCM should I hunt for??
//RF
//RF
01-09-2008, 07:47 AM
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Re: Possible to read intel 28F400BX in my PP-II?
Sort of hard to say. The '411 was the latest and greatest and used in the later 2000+ 5.7L vortec setups and I think is the same as or similar to the LS1 computers. I went with a 98-99 in hopes of having less code to deal with. It seems like the 96-97 PCMs are less desirable and also arent sectioned like the 98+ PCMs. On the down side, I havent been able to locate the serial transmission routine in my PCM yet. Seems like only some of them used the SCI. Not sure whether it uses an external chip for the serial communications or what.
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