XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Ah ok, I tested my cables "functionality," says it is working. I am going to use the adx attached in this post (I think it is for the v6). I am guessing I will need the 10K resistor between pins A & B and I datalog from pin E if I do not swap it with the location of pin M?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

IIRC on my friends 165 ecm on his fbird we had to use the resistor but I don't remember what 2 pins it was. Sorry. Google it and im sure youll find out. It doesn't hurt to use that adx. If it doesn't work then it doesn't, no harm no foul. If it works then use the adx.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Here is the datalog from my house to work. At the end of the log, I intentionally make it hesitate while in park by lightly putting my foot on the gas.

The FT232RL worked wonders with my ECM to datalog.

I will post a short highway run, and a fully warm (long drive, when it does it the worst) run in a few.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I've not noticed a problem with D3 not being grounded since I swapped and other (older) repin guides I've looked at didn't mention it. ESC is knock control and it only gets pinned to B7 if you're using an external module. The internal (white board on the memcal) gets pinned to B11.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Highway run for a minute or so towards the end of this log.

Think this is going to be it for logs I think, so I hope we can nail this thing. I have to switch to my 302' it is really crappy driving with the 165 and I drive my camaro daily...it jerks, hesitates from a stop and sometimes when the throttle is engaged. Maybe it is the timing being to advanced? or the MAF tables? I don't really know how to edit the MAF tables.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Spark is all over the place and doesn't match the tables at all, at some point it's as low as 3 degrees! The BLM is maxed out at some points (probably related to the spark issue). I'll do some more research to find out why it's not commanding the correct spark and get back to you.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Check the highway log, see if the spark is still all over the place. I might of had a loose ground (D10 splice) but I fixed it with the highway log.

If it helps, the car is alot louder and the power just isn't there with the 165'

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This is also a sign that the data logging isn't correct. That is the packets are corrupt. I didn't look at the log, but if values are bouncing up & down, it may be due to invalid data.
But, then again, see my response to Chris...

Louder and lack of power means a lack of spark advance. Which may match what bl85c is saying.

Can always put a timing light on the engine and see what is really going on...

RBob.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

The data like coolant temp and rpms are not all over the place, so would that still be a valid statement? I logged it correctly as far as I am aware. I put a 10K resistor between A&B and used pin M for data after swapping E->M. I checked for functionality of my cable and it passed on TunerPro.

Even the highway log the spark advance is whacked. How would a timing light help? Leave the EST connected and check the timing to see if it is close to 10 degrees?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The log looks fine, I think the spark being reported is what the ECM is commanding. If you can verify it with a timing light it will rule out a corrupted file (IMO it's not corrupted). Just noticed it says bypass check is enabled in your log too...

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

bypass check? What is that? take into account I just started doing all of this, this week.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

That's what I'm looking into. Could be ignition related, could have something to do with the innumerable other things the ECM may bypass in the code at other times. Left too cryptic to tell.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Does anyone know what this flag is for? EST bypass I'm guessing?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it is the difference between whether the ECM should be seeing the EST pulses (engine running) or not seeing them (cranking). Used for malfunction code 42.

RBob.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Maybe we can set-up a flag in the bin for Code 42?

0X1DF

Bit 5 0x20

That is the Flag for Code 42?

Not sure If I need parameters and what to use for them.

If the flag isn't present in the bin would it still throw a code? Maybe it was miswired or something? Take into account, my 302 ECM doesn't have these problems.

I am going to go through my whole wire harness and tighten up all the pins, and make sure I repin it the way it is in the guide (although, I am pretty sure I did it the way you have it listed), and do another log soon while your checking the bin.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

BTW do you have the EST line disconnected?

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

No sir, it is connected otherwise my 302 ECM would throw codes. The 302 runs fine.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The other thing to do would be look at your dist. module, take a look at these. For a different motor but same applies aside from the ECM pinout.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

But wouldn't the code 42 be thrown by my 1227302 ECM? I disconnected B4 and my 302 threw the code immediately...reconnected B4 and no more Code 42.

The 165 didn't throw a code 42 but I think it might be because the flag isn't in the bin?

----------------------------------------------------

Another topic:
I cleaned my MAF with a q-tip, think I messed it up. My 302 ECM jitters very slightly sometimes kind of like the 165' but very very lightly and only sometimes, uh...I just bought this MAF guess you can't use q-tips to clean them.

Do you have the $6E xdf and $6E 2.8 bin? I might get a t-bird maf and connector eventually instead of $100 on a new MAF, how you do hook it up to the dual snorkel air intake?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Here's info on the MAF swap. Never touch the MAF element with anything, spray it with a cleaner like denatured alcohol. There are sprays designed for it at auto stores. It won't necessarily show a code. I've unplugged some components on older ECMs without anything happening. Depends on how the error parameters are set up and on older ECMs the "tests" are pretty crude.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

The post doesn't contains the $6E XDF or bin and it's not on moates.

Anything on the 165' bin? There is nothing wrong with the EST...my 302' works well. My car drives, shifts, and gets 20MPG consistently. It has to do with the bin. Although, my MAF is starting to jitter just a tad bit every so often...but that's nothing to be concerned about for right now. I can always swap MAFs when I try the 165' again. I have a spare MAF. Let me know.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Read the bottom of the post.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Just ordered a T-Bird MAF and connector...lol...how much money until it works with the 165? -_-

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind that at some point you're going to have to do tuning for your motor.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, well if I could get to that point. I don't see why the 165 wont work. My 302 works fine. Something in the bin has to be off. I checked everything, just unsure what I'm looking at. I don't know why the spark advance is doing that...could the MAF cause the spark advance to go wacko? It just doesn't explain why the spark advance is fine on the 302 ECM.

So with the $6E, I need a knock sensor? would it work without one? I bought the MAF and connector. I'll pickup a 3' rubber connector at homedepot I hope.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

What I'm saying (and have many times) is these bins are far from perfect and may need tweaking on your part to get them running well, especially with the Ford MAF. Some have reported great success with the existing tune, others need tweaking. Individual inductions/motors/MAFs can all read different. Before making the swap to the Ford MAF I think we should track down your problem.

So far as I can tell there's nothing in the bin that would cause this kind of issue. If anyone has an original copy of one of the "L" or "F" bins for comparison it would help. The closest thing I've seen to what's happening with your setup is when hot restart is enabled and the ECM will only read from the right side of the main table. This doesn't resemble anything the ECM would normally do though. Have you checked out the ign. module? The MAF has some effect on the spark as load estimates are done off it, but it would have to be fluctuating wildly to produce these kinds of results and the spark reported doesn't even match what's in the table.

You can run it without a knock sensor but it will set an error code. You can turn it off in the bin if you like.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I got'cha with the tuning bit. What is there to check as far as the ignition module is concerned? I don't have a code 42 so would I still follow that troubleshooting bit? It is fairly new, why would it act differently with the 165 ECM as suppose to the 302? I will check out the 165 with the secondary MAF I have on hand soon...see what happens. It acts really hesitant when warm with the 165 ECM but it still will jitter when lightly pressing the gas at all times as well. I plan on re installing the 165 ECM with a different MAF and taking some more logs this week sometime.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Eliminating hardware issues just makes diagnosing things easier. Putting an ohm meter to it and comparing to what's in the chart will rule a flaky rpm signal out. Like I said the diag. tests on these old computers are pretty crude and err. codes often won't show up until something completely stops working.

If you haven't done it yet I'd go with the first suggestion and see if the spark at the crank is the same as what the ecm is reporting using a timing light. You can get one for $10 at harbor freight if you don't have one or a friend with one.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I own one. Should I disconnect the EST or leave it when checking the timing? I know it is set to about 10-11 degrees. checked with timing light and EST disconnected. what should I expect to see?

I swapped the MAF sensors, still the same ol. Attached a new log, it does have to do with the spark advance sometimes when it is around 30-40 and I am cruising around 30-40 the car feels normal, but then the advance dips down and causes my issues.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Both, please. Let us know what the light says steady state at various rpm's (like 1k, 1.5k, 2k etc.) disconnected and connected. Have a buddy watch what the ECM is reporting and call it out to you so you can compare it to what's actually going on at the crank and let us know if there's any discrepancy.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

ok I will do it sometime this week. I drove it with the 165 for about 7-8 miles. It threw a code 34 at he end of my run with my swapped MAF.

I am going to try to get another 165 ECM from advanceauto. Is there a wire or something we are missing in the repin guide? Do I need to splice together the back-up injector wires? I've been going over the charts, only thing I can see is the 2.8 Ref signal is 1.6 volts engine running, while the 5.0L is 1.3 volts.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You can leave the extra wires unattached or solder them together, it makes no difference. They're only there for redundancy. The only thing I can think of is if there's a wiring difference on certain models that I'm not aware of. But people with both the '870 and the '302 have swapped... IDK. For kicks you could splice D3 to another ground, see if anything changes... maybe take another look at your pins to be sure everything has good contact.

Check that you're getting a signal from the MAF. Code 34 is low voltage and basically only trips if there is no signal.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I'm also going to run to the salvage yard ad try to find another memcal like the one you have and try it out in my ecm. Maybe there's an issue with some '730 memcals and not others.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I have the ARBW memcal.

ARBW 1989 32470 16134565 1227730 4566 4511 AB LB6 2.8 MD9 AUTO F17

I returned the 165 I bought a second one. I will try it, I will try to ground D3 after that, I did check all the pins for good contact, and I will also try the Thunderbird MAF with the $6E bin. I will report back this weekend.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Any chance you got a spare ford maf connector? I modified one that was suppose to fit it but not sure if it will work.

I just installed the T-Bird MAF, no codes and no hesitation from a stop, going to go out later today; I am going to run a log and give it a run.
Either both MAFs were bad and it caused those conditions, or something isn't jiving in the 32B bin.

Here is a log file of the t-bird MAF $6E bin.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Spark looks correct now and the BLM is +- 4 from where it should be, looks like it's working properly now. How does it drive? Did you also change ECMs? The problem was the spark issue not the MAF so it's either the old ECM or the $32B bin. I don't have a spare connector but you can get one from a salvage yard cheap, return that other one if you still can.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I recieved two of the connectors for the price of one...mistake on their end. Ended up returning one, getting refunded, and modifying this one and using a zip tie to keep it in place for good. The junkyards around me don't have any 96-97 thunderbirds. I did swap ECMs. I did not try the 32B bin on it yet, just figured I would go straight for the t-bird MAF because my GM MAFs suck.

I drove it twice around the block, it seems like it is running smooth so far, I will report back after a little bit of driving.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I drove it yesterday for about 30 miles. It runs smoothly. Although, it does have some slight stumble sometimes when idling, not sure what it is. It is nothing like the 32B bin though, smooth on the highway, smooth when going through all gears.

When I release the throttle, it also dips from 1500 to 1000 then back to 1500 RPMs is that some type of feature? Just something I noticed.

I noticed the bin has an A/C clutch control flag what is that all about?

Thanks.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It's called DFCO and it cuts fuel decelerating for fuel savings. As far as I know $6E never had functional a/c code so it's just a leftover from GM. Congrats, now you can tune that MAF table.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for all your help, really appreciate it.

I put the A/C control on D3 ECM Ground, think that's ok? It works..lol

The DFCO...how does it work? when I let go of the gas it only drops to 1000 for about a second or two then goes back to 1500, and will do it a few times depending on how long I have my foot off the gas.

Should I also adjust my idle and using what procedure the 2.8s or 5.0?

As for the MAF tables,

I will tune it up abit...got any links for some help on tuning the tables?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

If it works on D3 let it be. When throttle is decreasing below a certain point and rpm is above a certain point (plus a few other constants) the ECM will cut fuel until you either open the throttle or rpm drops below another point. Unfortunately DFCO wasn't used on most cars because GM felt it would disturb customers too much despite the fuel savings. If you're coasting downhill and you let go of the throttle you can stay in DFCO for the whole decent depending on your speed. The idle adjustment procedure should be pretty much the same but go with the 2.8 method. Here's MAF tuning notes.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

This is what the DFCO does, is this right? Is it suppose to be set to remain above the idle or below? My idle is around 825-850. It is set to remain above 900 RPMs, so once it enables it will disable because it is higher than my idle speed. From 0:16-0:28 I do not have my foot on the throttle I'm cruising.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I think the link's broken. Should be set to 900 rpm.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

That's DFCO. Whenever you let off the throttle it will do that. If it gets annoying you can modify the constants (like msec for DFCO) to make it happen less often.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

So it should go down to 900 then kick up to 1400-1500 in a second like it does in the video? It isn't annoying, I was just wondering if this is normal for DFCO. I take my foot off the throttle for 20-30 seconds, and it will go down to 1500, then 900-1000 for a second or two, then the RPMs go back up to 1500, then it does it again about 10 seconds after the first round.

The idle is around 900 warm and my idle screw isn't even punched...how does that work...lol, with the A/C on it is around 750-775. If I add about 175 RPMs to the Idle Speed Adder A/C Enabled think this will boost it back up to 900? Not sure why it is so low.

A question about the MAF tuning, what do you mean by datalog in a steady state? what is the product? and smoothly blending the curve (add the value to all the tables?)?

"datalog steady state at various airflows in 5 g/sec increments and adjust what's in the maf tables by dividing the current BLM at that airflow by 128 and multiplying that airflow by the product, then smoothly blending the curve."

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Seady state means cruising at that particular g/sec without moving your foot so the blm/int has time to adjust. Shouldn't need more than 10 secs to adjust. The product is the result of dividing the current BLM by 128 (divide = product), and smoothly blending means just that- open up the graph view of the MAF table you're working in and blend the curve with the adjustments you made until it looks more or less smooth (no lumpy points in the curve). Another tip- remember to adjust the beginning and end of each table to the same value. So if the end of your 1st table is 15 g/sec then the first entry in the next table needs to be 15 g/sec as well.

You really need to take a zen approach to it and let the motor dictate what it needs. The stock 2.8 may need as little as 3 g/sec at idle and want as much as 160 g/sec full throttle. Tuning the upper limits without a WBo2 means resorting to classic tuning methods (looking at the plugs, e.t.'s, etc.) as the stock NBo2 is useless at anything but 14.7AFR. There's tons of tuning info in the stickies at the top of this board.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This isn't normal behavior. After the ECM goes into DFCO the RPM shouldn't drop like that. The trans should keep the engine turning over.

Although, I wonder if the DFCO IAC steps have been changed. They too affect how much engine braking there is.

What you are seeing is that once the RPM drops DFCO is being exited. This brings the RPM back up. After a period of 10 seconds (or so) DFCO is being entered again. Rinse and repeat.

If this was with the stick in the 3rd gear position it may be that the overrun clutches are gone.

RBob.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

That is what I was asking. This is with the car in overdrive. It is an automatic. My idle for some reason is 900 warm in drive, my throttle has never been punched but I bought this one off another 2.8 (so its not stock) should I punch it? I think maybe it is because my idle is near the exit point of the DFCO, idk.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Idle RPM doesn't have anything to do with DFCO. Although, it is the lowest RPM allowed when the engine is running. DFCO should exit well before the idle RPM is met.

Even in OD (stick position), I've never seen the RPM drop like that. Note that with the stick in the OD position, the overrun clutches are dis-engaged.

Not sure what is going on.

RBob.