camaroyoungster

Update:12/09/15
Since I don't want to make a new thread, I will just keep going on this one for my 1226870 to 1227730 ecm. Will put in more as progress insues.

Thanks, Drew


I have been tossing around the idea of doing some modifications to my v6 and wanted to start with the computer for it before going on to other things to get used to it and then slowly getting more in depth with mods. I have researched Megasquirt a lot and I have also researched tuning with the stock ecm. I want your guys' opinions on what I should do and what is the easiest to do. here are some pros and cons I have thought of each from my perspective.

Megasquirt
Pros:
no chip burning
live data logging
I heard it was pretty user friendly

Cons:
wiring, (I dont know if the chassis electrical will stay the same or if i have to modify it)
cost more money
I have a auto trans so I wouldnt know what to do for TCC

Stock ECM
Pros:
pretty much same wiring
less money

Cons:
I have to do ECM swap because mine is not '165 or '730
more equipment
chip burning
I also really dont know programming that well to figure what all those masks and stuff mean.

Any opinions are welcome. Thanks for helping me out.
Drew

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Either way you're going to have to rewire, learn to tune and spend some $$. Like you said an OEM ECM will be cheaper but you need to burn chips or get an Ostrich to do live tuning. A Megasquirt will be more expensive and you'll need a TCC lockup kit. I would ask around and see if anyone has a decent tune for a stockish v6 to get started with the Megasquirt, if not go with a '165 or '730 because the learning curve will be less drastic with a known running calibration for that motor.

camaroyoungster

The only thing I don't get about tuning the stock ECM, is knowing all that code that everyone talks about like $6C or something. That would be the hardest part about it I think.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The hardest part is figuring out what the motor wants. Well unless you get into writing your own code, completely different world there...

But finding which program to use and understanding the lingo comes pretty easily. If you go with a '165 you'll use a v6 version of $32B or $6E, if you go with a '730 you'll probably be using $88 (stock 3.1 code) and of course Megasquirt has their own brand of program.

camaroyoungster

Would I just have to put in that $32b code in the program some where and that would give me a baseline where to start? And is that the only code I would have to deal with?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You only need to deal with one code/mask once you select an ECM.

Some ECMs will run several different codes/masks, but you won't be switching between them, like it sounds like you might be thinking.

Let's assume you use a '7730 (one of my favorite ECMs to use), You wuld then select a code/mask that will run in that, there are several.
The easiest to get running would be $88 as mentioned, since it was used on the 3.1 in the F-body, so it would be as close to plug and play as you can get. This code is limited to Naturally Aspirated applications, so if you're thinking of going turbo/super down the road, this may not be the best choice, though you could always change it later once you get comfortable with tuning. Trust me it gets a lot easier.

But lets forget about forced induction for now. Using $88, will be a good starting point and allow you tune the engine, though the definition files for $88 may not be as complete as other masks, but the important stuff should be there. This also has the advantage of in theory being able to drop the bin file onto a EPROM or uploaded to an Emulator, such as an Ostrich 2.0, and start the car. I don't recall if $88 had VATS or not, so you may need to look into that. I shouldn't be difficult to disable that in the code if need be.

So it's really quite simple, decide if you want to use a MAF, or go speed denisty (MAP based), this will decide on which ECM, '7165 or '7730. Then you chose the code you want, based on what you're comfortable with starting with and/or your end goals.

I'm going to mention this, just because I think it's worth mentioning here. The '7165 will run a customized Australian code called $12P, that is SD, has many advanced features including WO2 logging (possible closed loop control as well, but I haven't verified that. It also has 4 "flex outputs" that allow you run just about anything you want, based on how you want them controlled, shift light, wastegate solenoid, electric water pump, water/meth control, etc. They also can just be left alone as well.

I have tested this code in place of my '7749 running $59, and I'm impressed with it, though it was an initial test and didn't get far with it due to time constraints, but I plan to try it more in the future. BTW, I am running the '7749 (similar to a '7730) with $59 on a Nissan turbo 2.8L I6, and have been for about 5 years. So the Delco ECM is very adaptable.

The Delco has real time logging capability, just need an ALDL cable to connect to the laptop. You can also real time tune a Delco by using an Emulator, which I HIGHLY suggest, since it saves so much time in the tuning process, especially when you're first trying to get an initial tune. You can see the changes immediately.

Either way it's a steep initial learning curve, but then it becomes easier over time. You'll get hooked on tuning and want to fiddle with your car to get that last little bit smoothness or power, or a perfect transition, etc, just because you can.

The Delco ECM also has onboard diagnostics, which I believe the MS is still lacking, I know it was lacking up to MS2.

I've looked at the MS many times over the time it's been developed, and it wasn't until the MS3 came along that I would even consider running an MS. MS3 finally added VSS input and control of some functions because of that input, TCC I believe is one, and can be used to control fan on/off settings (GM code already does this. ). The added ability of being able to go SFI and sequential COP (non wastespark) is also intriguing, but it's also pricey, especially when adding in the MS3X add ons.

camaroyoungster

Ok thanks, so what I would have to do to start tuning would be '165 swap (since mine is older). Then possibly get an ostrich 2 to datalog and tune. I saw that ostrich doesn't have some of the stuff that that fancy auto prom does. So would I have to get an ALDL cord that plugs into my computer? I think also a wideband o2 sensor would be nice. I have one of those g1 adapters that I found in my iroc so i think i can use that for the Ostrich. Then all I need to do is get a good tune, record it with ostrich, then burn a chip and put it in. Am I correct on this stuff?

Thanks, Drew

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Your close...

The Ostrich is simply an EPROM emulator, it gets installed in place of the EPROM. You can do this temporarliy or permanently. I've done both. In other peopl's vehicles, the install is temporary, while tuning after which, I program an EEPROM, that gets "permanently" installed in the ECM.

The Ostrich does not get used for datalogging. There is a memeory hit map function, but that's kind of an advanced topic, so we'll just pretend I didn't mention it. You will need an ALDL cable, such as the ALDL Xtreme from moates to connect between the ALDL port and your laptop.

To program an EPROM you need a programmer. For the Delco ECM, the BURN2 is a good choice since it will program the SST 27SF512 that is popular.

If you're looking at ordering the seperate items, you might want to just look at getting an Autoprom. Just be aware that SOME code has issues with datalogging and emulating at the same time. I know $58 has this issue without a patch applied that rectifies it.

I wouldn't base ECM selection on the age of your car. You can swap to the '7730 just as easily as the '165. Given that there is code for the '165 that will run in either MASS AIR mode or SD mode, it's not a bad choice, as long as you realize that any stock code for that ECM may take a bit of initial work to get running, since they were not, as far as I'm aware used on the 60 degree V6.

camaroyoungster

Ok, I think I got it now,

So, I do a swap, whatever one it is. Then I enter whatever mask I want to put on. Then I use a program to datalog like WinALDL with my computer hooked to the ALDL port to get the readings.

After that I, I change the settings with a tuning software and then tell the emulator what to change which is connected to the ecm via cable.

Then step and repeat until I get something that I want and take the program off the emulator and burn a chip or just leave the emulator in.

If I am correct on that, it seems alot easier now than it did before. I read that prom burning guide and it looked very discouraging with all of the info haha. :/

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Much closer.

The ECM doesn't care about the mask. The mask is something that was created to be able to tell different codes apart and is what is an older term to reference different codes, because the the "mask" could decipher the bin file. The ECM uses the bin file, the other files, such as XDF and ADX are used by computer programs, specifically Tuner Pro RT in the case of the two mentioned files.

Bringing me to my next point, you can use Tuner Pro RT to both log and tune the bin. You can emulate using an Ostrich and Tuner Pro RT, and datalog at the same time. Alternatively you can just log and tune the bin file later, if you wish, and still load to an Ostrich, or program an EPROM.

It will make a whole lot more sense once you get some of the hardware and actually connect it.

camaroyoungster

I'm sure it will. Thanks for all your knowledge on this stuff. Ill start scraping together some money to start to get everything. I want to get everything that I can done, before I start this. Do you know how long it would take to swap in an ECM and get started tuning? Would I be able to do it all in one day?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

As long as you can read schematics to be able to re-pin the harness and add/remove wires, it could be done in a few hours. Tuning will be done over a longer period, because that's just how it goes. Even if you get running well in a couple hours, you'll find some excuse to change something in the tune.

I was able to get my Nissan I6 running in a couple hours, for which there was no stock bin available for, there were a couple close, but I also decided to use $59, that mostly used on 4.3L V6s up to that point, so I had to start almost from scratch. The base bin was fairly close but needed some tweaking. The harness work took me a couple months, because it was originally carbureted and had to make the harness. But at this point, if I decided I wanted to permanently swap over to the '165 I could do it in a couple hours. I currently have an adapter harness that I use to switch back and forth.

For a beginner, I would bank on a weekend project, because you may need time to research something that comes up, or just taking your time to verify everything.

camaroyoungster

Ok, sounds good to me. Thanks for all the help. And I guess if I have questions in the future, just put them here haha

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

If you're still interested in the '165 read through this.

camaroyoungster

Yeah, I read through that and got that bookmarked so when I get all the stuff i can get started.

camaroyoungster

Hey, I was just looking at ostrich 2, and I was wondering, does the 28 pin cable connect right where the old mem cal pack thing goes. And does it only plug right in on newer ecms like '7730 and '165?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

This really should be reposted in the DFI/ECM area as everyone roaming the DIY PROM board will undoubtedly say the stock ECM is better, and the guys who run other systems to argue for them are not on the PROM board. A version of your question popped up in the DFI/ECM area of which is better a stock or aftermarket ecm. The best answer is "it depends."

It depends what functions are most important to you, what do you need it to control, what tuning and user luxuries do you want?

If you must control emissions equipment than the stock ECM is what you should keep. If you have lots of highway mileage and you want to save fuel than the stock ECM does a "better" job. Other than that my (obviously biased) opinion is that the ecm does nothing better and MegaSquirt is the way to go. Sorry for not seeing this last month.

camaroyoungster

Oh sorry about that, I really didn't know where to put it in the first place.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Has no one here mentioned EBL flash yet ???!!!!?!?!! DynamicEFI.com ... Best thing since sliced bread ! Contact RBob ! Idk if he makes a setup for the V6 or not but I'm pretty sure he does

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

If you install the 165 ECM, then go with the NVRAM $12P module and code. Will do boost and the other stuff you need.

If you install the 730/749 then go with the $59 code.

Easiest to tune: MS series.

Hardest to tune: GM ECMs. Keep in mind the GM ECMs with adds on are still GM code based with all kinds of extra tables that only few understand.

It depends what you want.
Do you want simple to tune? If yes, then go MS.
Do you want simple to install? If yes, go GM ECM

What is most simple to tune and install? GM 165 ECM with $12P code and NVRAM 0n-the-fly tuning board/module.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I will have to disagree with you there. The licensed version of MegaTune allows you to drive while it automatically tunes your VE table to the needed values based off of your AFR table. You can even set which areas of the table to adjust and how hard/easy it is to change the current values in the ve table. Or you can do the same thing based off of a datalog.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

[QUOTE="Tibo;5671100"] I will have to disagree with you there. The licensed version of MegaTune allows you to drive while it automatically tunes your VE table to the needed values based off of your AFR table. You can even set which areas of the table to adjust and how hard/easy it is to change the current values in the ve table. Or you can do the same thing based off of a datal

EBL does the same thing and is a lot cheaper than ms and it is mostly plug and play ... For my 91' bird it was 100% plug and play no moving pins running wires etc .. Plug it in and go

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

[QUOTE=1991sleeper;5671137]Sure. If you want the least expensive option and/or can't/won't rewire anything than the the EBL is your best bet.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Yes the Ebl also learns the needed VE values from your AFR while driving either from the stock narrowband (blm learn) or from a Wideband ... The only difference is u can't set how hard/easy it is to change the values as far as I know

camaroyoungster

Tell me more about EBL. It plugs right into your stock ecm? and does it have its own tuning interface to tune? does it work with the early ecms too or would I have to update mine?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

www.dynamicefi.com

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

U use tuner pro for the tuning and managing bins and yes it IS a stock ECM ... U send him your ECM and they modify it ... Then get it back and plug it in ... Done

camaroyoungster

Already did, I read pretty much everything on the website. I looked and it seems that I would have to update my ecm which I would have to do anyways. God tuning is going to be such a steep learning curve for someone who hasn't done it before.

Dominic Sorresso

EBL has great tools and software to help w tuning. The code piggybacks onto GM code and is written in the same manner which means it focuses as much on driveability and day to day driving as much as performance. There's an EXTENSIVE thread on TG dealing w tuning EBL. And finally, you have access to an outstanding tuning resource, RBob. None better!

camaroyoungster

Ok, I think I might go with that now. I do like the Whats up display

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Good choice !

Dominic Sorresso

I used EBL for many years on my modded 84 Xfire Vette. I wish RBob would develop an EBL for the LT-5.

camaroyoungster

I can do basic wiring and stuff but the tuning part is going to kill me so I guess I'll have to start out small and get used to it.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

I thought the same thing ! ... With everyone's help on this forum u will have the basics downplay in a few months ... It's best to start tuning on a stock or mildly modified vehicle then progress your tuning skills as your engine mods progress ... Read the intro to tuning pages on dynamic EFI.com until it sticks in ur head then read it again .... Then go to the "tuning with Ebl" thread and read the whole thing and take notes ! Lots of notes !

Dominic Sorresso

Start reading.

camaroyoungster

So now since I am going to store my car for the winter, Ill get some money for an ecm because apperently only 88 2.8 ecms work. So I'll have to get one of those and then buy that EBL flash system and convert my car to MAP to make it work. That shouldn't be too hard.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Maybe you already know? EBL is an ECM

It uses TunerPro to change the EBL.bin values. then you flash in the changed .bin

On the website I believe it lists the donor GM ECU's. yes it uses the early ECM's.

** Note the port fuel option on that website**

camaroyoungster

So I E-mailed RBob and I do have to get a different ecm which I'll probably get through them so the total would be around $490 for everything I need to get started on this because it needs that port mod and serial adapter too.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

$490 doesn't sound like the inexpensive route. MS3 assembled is $553 and MS3 Extra is $645 and there is a 10% off sale right now making the prices $497 and $580 respectively.

In this years Engine Masters Challenge three out of the top six engines were using MegaSquirt.

camaroyoungster

Thats for the ecm, the ebl flash, port mod, serial adapter and shipping.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

It was definitely cheaper for me cause I already had the right ECM and all I needed was the add in board without the port mod n all that crap so I was out the door with the Ebl flash @ 380$ Then about 3 months later I bought the TT-1 Wideband for 189$ So I had everything I need ed to tune for 570$ and once again it was plug and play I didn't have to change one single wire in the entire car ! But after talking with RBob I did reroute the wiring from the egr solenoid to the cooling fan so that I could control at what tempature the fan came on and went off so 2 wires were rerouted to this day

camaroyoungster

Ok, I would hate to revive an almost 3 year old thread but I think ill need some help on this. I just picked up a 1227727 ecm from a 92 ciera i think. It had the 3.1 v6. Anyways I Have read up on the conversion to the other 165 and 7730 ecm from others. I don't see anywhere there is a swap from mine to any of those. I want to also document the process of switching to this ecm.
First question.
Do any of you know if that is the correct prom with the knock module on it? I wasn't exactly sure.
Second. I found a pin out for this ecm but it is for the corvettes. I was wondering if they are different.
I was also wondering how to disconnect various other things that aren't on my car now or I don't want them on later.

camaroyoungster

Here are the pinouts for the ecm.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The '727 is essentially the same as a '730 and the pinout should be the same if you want to use the $A1 mask. The memcal/knock board you have is fine, just wire the knock sensor to the correct pin. You can set the flags to disable things like the egr, anti-theft, etc. just look at the flags in tunerpro.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The ASWH MEMCAL is for a '88 FWD 2.8l engine. The knock filter will be close enough to use on a 3.1l engine. Not ideal, but useable.

The bigger issue is the '7727 harness connectors. They are different then the connectors used in our f-body ECMs. Will need to cut and splice the proper connectors onto your harness to use it.

Also, it is possible that there are pin out differences between the '88 FWD vehicle and the '90 - '92 Vette. So need to decide which code base you are going to use before re-pinning the harness.

And, you can't use the ASWH MEMCAL as-is, the FWD cars used DIS, so the minimum, maximum, and initial SA parameters in the calibration don't match the ones required when using a distributor.

It will run & drive OK if you leave the EST/BYPASS open, but that isn't ideal either.

RBob.

camaroyoungster

So I went back to the Junkyard and I found myself a 1227730 ecm from a beretta with a 3.1. The Prom that came with it is a delco BFAW 0175 with knock sensor module on it. I also got an oil Drive pump and ICM and coils from a lumina.
Questions:
1.Will this work on my 3.1 v6 and what do i have to change? what kind of mask am I going to have to run?\

camaroyoungster

ok some more questions this is what I have so far for pin switching.
The ones I have questions on are marked with ?'s but if you could look over it all that would be nice too.

I was using info from this website to get where I am at now.
http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...%20pinouts.htm

Thanks,
Drew

1226870------------------------>1227730
Fuel pump relay A1-->A11 Fuel pump rely
Air Switch--------A2-->C9 A/C on request---?
Canister purge---A3-->F7 Canister Purge
Egr Control-------A4-->E9 Egr sol. control
SES Control------A5-->E7 SES light
IGN-ECM---------A6-->A6 Ign. power feed
TCC control------A7-->F6 TCC control A/T
Serial Data-------A8-->A8 Serial data
Diagnostic term-A9-->E12 Diagnostic Term
Speed Sensor---A10-->?
MAT---------------A11-->F16 MAT signal
Grd.---------------A12-->?
Battery 12V.-----B1-->C16 Battery 12V
Fuel pump sig.---B2-->E13 Fuel pump Sig.
EST ref. low------B3-->D9 Est Ref. low
EST ref. in.-------B5-->D8 Est. ref.
Not used ---------B6------------------
EST Signal--------B7-->C8 EST----------------?
A/C signal---------B8-->?-----------------------?
Not used----------B9-------------------
P/N sw. signal----B10-->D16 P/N switch
MAF signal--------B11-->F15 MAP signal-----?
Not used----------B12-----------------
Not used----------C1------------------
Air control--------C2-->?------------------------?
IAC "B" LOW-----C3-->E6 IAC "B" LOW
IAC "B" HIGH----C4-->E5 IAC "B" HIGH
IAC "A" HIGH----C5-->E3 IAC "A" HIGH
IAC "A" LOW-----C6-->E4 IAC "A" LOW
Overdrive req.----C7-->?------------------------?
A/T 4th Gear-----C8-->D14 TCC 4th Gear switch---?
Fan Request------C9-->?-------------------------?
CST Signal--------C10-->E16 CST Signal
Not used----------C11-----------------------
TPS back up------C12-->?------------------------?
mode signal
TPS signal--------C13-->F13 TPS Signal
TPS 5v ref.-------C14-->A5 TPS 5v ref.
inj.2-4-6-8 "B"--C15-->?-------------------------?
Battery 12v------C16-->?-------------------------?
GRD---------------D1-->?--------------------------?
Cooling fan ctl.---D2-->?--------------------------?
Cyl. Sel.(8cyl.----D3-->?---------------------------?
Grounded
Not Used---------D4---------------------------
EST Bypass------D5-->C7 EST bypass
Grn'dm O2-------D6-->E15 O2 ground
O2 sensor Sig.---D7-->E14 O2 signal
EGR temp sw.---D8-->?----------------------------?
Not used---------D9-----------------------------
MAF Grnd.-------D10-->B6-------------------------?
Not used---------D11----------------------------
TPS 5v. grd------D12-->B5-------------------------?
CST,MAF,MAT---D13-->?---------------------------?
GRD.
Inj. 2-4-6-8"B"-D14-->?---------------------------?
Inj. 1-3-5-7"A"-D15-->?---------------------------?
Inj. 1-3-5-7"A"-D16-->?---------------------------?

camaroyoungster

Ok Researching some more I found another diagram with better phrasing for the 7730 side from a guy on pennocks fiero.

Car will be using the cable speedo so do I still need to keep the vss signal for the ECM?

Also, I don't want Egr. also Evap delete if that is possible too.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The '7730 ECM will work on your engine. To use the Lumina ICM and coil pack will need to add a 7-tooth trigger wheel (DIS setup).

For the VSS input to the ECM, the '7730 does have an optical input that may be able to be used. I know that $8D supports that input (pin C6), not sure about other masks.

As for what mask to use, I'd favor $8D since it is well known.

RBob.

camaroyoungster

I was also reading about $A1. Would that also work? I am also not very sure on the pinouts either.