EDGE

As this is my first burn, and it's a modified ARAP for a manual 350 F-Car, I just want to know if I'm more or less headed in the right direction. I can upload or PM a .BIN I'm running a cast iron head so I dialed back the timing some as well.

ULTM8Z

I can take a look at it.

ultm8z@yahoo.com

If you have Tunerpro it'd probably more helpful to supply a datalog with the bin so we can see how the engine is reacting to your changes. Ultimately the engine is going to want what it wants.

EDGE

Thank you. I've not Data logged as of yet but I'm going to right now, with ALDL on my Tablet. I just went for a drive and it sputters and chugs when I start off, but appears to idle fine. To be expected for a first run I would expect. I'll send a the BIN.

ULTM8Z

Got the bin. I'll take a look..... yeah data log would be helpful, particularly in the areas where you're experiencing the issues.

EDGE

I can really hear it ping, and I'm setting a Code 24 while parked, but it goes away when I start driving. I'm having trouble data logging. Nothing appears to be recorded. I keep getting a "A NOT YET SYNCHED WITH ECU DATA STREAM" banner across the bottom. Its reading though. I also have a BLM of 160 and it's not moving from there

EDGE

I ended up copying my own PROM and moding that with a 5 speed BIN. I don't know why I'm getting this code 24 and a very high idle, 2000 rpm. Even on the stock MEMCAL the 24 is now showing a few seconds after I'm not moving. Never did that before.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The code 24 is a symptom of the high idle, ignore it.

Do you get the SES/CEL blink at key-on, engine-off?

RBob.

EDGE

The CEL comes on at key on. I think my cable is bad. As soon as I plug it in, by itself, no tablet. The idle jumps to a thousand plus. If I drive a bit it's up to 2000. Then the CEL sets, and the idle starts dropping then back up. Very cyclic. The car runs fine when that damn cable is disconnected

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Search 10K resistor across A & B. That is required to get the ECM into 8192 baud mode. It can be removed after that.

The resistor is also the reason for the high idle and other goofy stuff.

RBob.

EDGE

Okay that makes sense then. My cable has a jumper attached to it that is for that 10k resistor. You had mentioned in a prior post that the 6E Bin is preferred, due in part to it's better MAF tables. I was playing around with that one and had a lot of stumbling off idle. I sent that to ULTM8Z for a look. Would it be wise to stay with the 32B, and copy over the 6E tables? Reason I ask is, the 6E Bin has so many more variables then the 32B does. Are they even used?

One other thing I'm trying to figure out is, what's on the MEMCAL? The last few weeks I was running on the blue, factory MEMCAL, and I noticed my gas tank pressure was near zero. Today I went back to the JET adapter, and my tank seems to be building a bit of pressure again. There's a couple posts in the TPI room of members, myself included, dealing with debilitating gas tank pressure. I'm wondering if the MEMCAL has the purge control control information on it. And is it possibly being effected by the PROM? Seems to much a coincidence.

ULTM8Z

Oh yeah, the mask. I'll need to know what you're running so I can download the correct one from Tunerpro to see your data.

Looks like you're running 32B?

EDGE

I believe that was the 6E on the one I sent you. I burned another one experimenting with the 32B

EDGE

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong, but non of the 6E Bins are not working well at all. I have a very, very rough idle and stumbling off idle, regardless of weather or not I use a Corvette or F-Car Bin. I did get a Checksum error on the scanner, and it's my understanding that the ECM will go in Limp mode when that happens.

The APYS 6E Bin, which is what I've been trying, has a very noticeable difference in power. Pulls hard and higher up the RPM band, but it idles very poorly and runs quite rough. I can't even connect to the ECM for some reason when using it. I'd really like to get that Bin working. Seems like it'd be a good fit.

The 32B Bin I've been using was pulled right off my own MEMCAL, and all I did was copy over the timing curve from a 5 speed car, and set the injectors to 24 pounds, as well as select manual transmission. It seemed to run pretty good, but no where near the jam this APYS 6E Bin had.

I've been getting my 6E Bins from Gearhead-EFI by the way.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

But does it do the blink-off? If not the ECM isn't running from the PROM, it is in limp mode.

RBob.

EDGE

At key on, the light stays solid. Goes out during crank and stays out. On the 32B it data logs and reads fine. The CEL operates the same with the stock MEMCAL as well. Keep in mind the factory MEMCAL is for an auto car that's since been converted to 5 speed, so I don't know if it would be looking for something.

EDGE

I'm still having no luck with these 6E Bins. Keep getting checksum errors and the car runs rough. Like I said, it hauls good off idle but I'm unable to connect the scaner to the ECM. I came across during a search something about Stacking and changing buffer sizes. I'm more confused then before.

I'm using the 27SF512 chip, if that matters.

Here's a short Log file of one of the 6E.

ULTM8Z

Actually that does matter!

What are you using to burn the chips?

EDGE

The Moates Burn 2 and either TunerPro or the standalone Moates burner software, which is the same I believe

ULTM8Z

I took a look at the data log... yeah I'm not getting any data in TP. The CSV file appears to only have a subset of the parameters exported out. Can you do another export and ensure all parameters are selected?

To the first order, I'd try to get the car running as close to correctly as possible with the factory PROM before you start modifying it and introducing new variables into the mix. For one thing, I wouldn't expect your BLM being pegged at 160 (which it essentially is) just with your cam (unless I'm mistaken, it only has 206 deg intake duration at .050).

One thing I'm noticing is your airflow readings don't seem to correlate well to engine speed. I'm not familiar with MAF systems, but the csv file is showing that higher engine speed isn't always corresponding to higher air flow and vise versa. Is your MAF sensor known good?

Just going over some other basics...

Your distributor timing is set to 6 deg with EST disconnected?

The inj pulse width vs battery correction table does not match the datasheet you forwarded me from Bosch. Probably want to get that set properly before any other tuning is done. Please note the Bosch data sheet is in milliseconds and your table is in microseconds. Be aware of the decimal place difference... i.e., .751 milliseconds = 751 microseconds.


You're certain your ignition system is in good working order?

EDGE

My timing was set with the timing plug disconnected and set to 6 degrees. As far as I know the ignition is in good shape. I can run a log on the factory MEMCAL. The reason I didn't adjust the fuel numbers was because I didn't know what to do with all the voltage numbers I don't have data for. Do I just extrapolate and insert the unknown numbers that way?

ULTM8Z

You could linearly interpolate and it would probably be pretty close yeah.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Which brings us back to the SES blink... If no blink off then the ECM is in limp mode, hence no data log either. This is basic tuning 101 stuff.

IOW, if the SES doesn't do the blink at key-on, engine-off, don't even bother to turn the key further to start the engine.

RBob.

EDGE

I'm a little confused. I noticed, at key on, what appears to be a very fast blink, but the CEL stays on after that until I actually start the car. Depending on what Bin is on the adapter when I use it, sometimes there is no fast blink. Here is the Data log from my bone stock MEMCAL from this morning. The scanner had no problem connecting.

ULTM8Z

On my minipro with my 512s, I have to set the buffer start address to 08000 such that the data gets installed on the chip in the right location.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

At key-on, engine-off the SES/CEL must: Turn on briefly, blink off, then turn on solid.

Can repeat the test after 10 seconds of key-off.

If the SES/CEL doesn't do the blink off, the ECM isn't running from the PROM.

So those times you didn't get the blink, the ECM wasn't running from the PROM and was in limp mode.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This is correct for $8D as it is a 32 KB BIN.

For $32 & $6E need to start the chip burn at 0C000 as they are 16 KB BINs.

RBob.

EDGE

Its a very quick blink, and I have no issue connecting to the ECM. So if it's in limp mode, I assume then that connection would not be possible, nor a data log. That's what's been happening with the 6E. I get unable to connect to ECM errors and the car runs like absolute crap.

EDGE

If you have a moment, have a look at that last data log I posted. The numbers are vastly different. I think the cars running fine. I know you mentioned that the car running mechanically sound is paramount, which I agree. I posted that log to verify that the stock setup is good. However that MEMCAL won't reflect the 24# injector and the manual transmission of course.

ULTM8Z

Will do. If the data looks good and ol' "butt dyno" indicates good driveability, then yeah we can say you're starting off with a good baseline.

After that, it's incremental changes with good note-taking to get where you want.

EDGE

This last Data log is another 32B Bin. It was my Bin copied off my memcal, with the 5.0 liter timing curve for the 87, as well as the injectors changed to reflect 24 pounds but not with the injector data updated. It's also been switched over to the manual transmission via the flags.

I still felt a big difference with that 6E, but the Knock was through the roof. I'm wondering if I could copy the maf table and timing curve from the 6E over to my 32B?

EDGE

I went and re-checked. With the 32B Bin both stock and a modified one, at key on, the SES comes on for a 10th of a second, blinks off for about the same, then comes back on solid. The scanner connects and everything seems to work.

With the 6E there is no blink and the car runs very rough. I'm also seeing checksum faults and no ECM connection errors.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

You might want to check this. The man knows of what he speaks!

ULTM8Z

The 32B seems to be running a little leaner than the 6E. To be honest, I'm not sure about the differences between the two set ups.

According to Tunerpro...

$6E = 1989 LB9/L98 F & Y Body

$31B = 87-88 5.0/5.7 F & Y Body

EDGE

I just went an re-burned the ARAP 6E corvette bin, and changed the buffer address to what Rob had mentioned. The car seems to have responded quite well. I tried the injector numbers from the data sheet and it was way to lean. 160 BLM at idle and ever after. I changed back to the vette numbers, and changed the injector to 24#. I have a BLM averaging 135 now. I'll run data and post.

EDGE

Here's the data for the ARAP. Wasn't as balanced as I thought. In fact it's much to lean, especially at idle, albeit better than the first time. It's running quite well. The last crack at the ARAP and the car barely ran. Clearly I need to richen things up. this is a 6E mask. Maybe I should up the fuel pressure? I'm running a Racetronix 255 fuel pump at 39psi vacuum connected to Bosch III injectors.

ULTM8Z

What's your fuel pressure with the vacuum disconnected?

EDGE

Vacuum disconnected is 43 psi. I noticed i had crazy high Knock counts. That's got to be timing because on my stock 32B log, I had 5. And I drove just as hard if not harder.

And thanks to you guys for helping me out.

EDGE

I can't get my BLM below 160 at idle. I bumped the injector vs voltage rate 200 usec over the ARAP setting, and added a bit on the MAF table 1, and it still won't come down

ULTM8Z

Did you check BLM anywhere else? If it's pegged everywhere else you'd have a global calibration or setting issue. If it's only pegged at idle then it's a different story...

Did you modify the Inj vs voltage across the board or only a particular voltage? IF particular, was it at the voltage your system is running at?

Also, your injectors are rated at 39 psi (vacuum disconnected) per the data sheet you sent me.. You're running at 43 psi (vacuum disconnected), so in reality your 24lb injectors probably "look like" 25 lb injectors. I 'believe' roughly speaking, the relationship is:

New Flow Rate = Sqrt(New Pressure/Old Pressure) * Old Flow Rate

New Flow Rate = Sqrt(43/39) * 24 = 25.2

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That is an indication of a post MAF intake leak. IOW, un-metered air is entering the engine.

If the injectors are the skinny blue ones (ends in -715) see this thread for the proper injector compensation values:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...es-needed.html

RBob.

EDGE

They end in -703 and I'm running a open element air filter, however thats forward of the MAF. It's all buttoned up. I just had a double check. I'll take the propane to it and see if that runs up the idle

EDGE

The BLM is not pegged elsewhere but it's quite high.. Sometimes I get down to 130. It's actually better at higher throttle settings

EDGE

To be honest, I don't even know really how to decipher this log. I know I'm way to lean, and I have no idea as to why. As soon as I let off that gas pedal I'mn at 160, without fail. And it sits there until I get on the throttle. My knock counts go through the roof when I rev it, although that may be my exhaust. It's an 80 series Flowmaster and it's loud. Reverberates through the car. I'm not hearing any pinging like I did on the ARAP SA Table. The ARAP Bin I'm using right now has the AUJN SA Table. The thing is, the car feels really good, so I'm kind of at a loss here. I went out and checked my hoses, and dragged a propane torch around the engine. There does not appear to be any vacuum leaks. I also changed my Injector PW, however after I save and reopen, the numbers are not the same as what I entered. They're close, but something is altering them a little. I'm not sure if that's normal. Same happens with the Injector size. I enter 24.3, save, then re-open and it comes up as 24.28.

I also have been making short 5 minute data logs, just after inserting the chip. So I've no idea if that's enough. does the "Learn" in BLM actually start making adjustments over time? Or should the BLM be reading correctly, immediately?

ULTM8Z

Rbob... Some sort of Decel Enlean being activated when throttle goes to 0%?

EDGE

Whatever it's doing, it's doing it in closed loop. I just went out and started it cold. Sat there and let it idle. The BLM was holding at 128 while in open loop. The second it went closed, it started immediately counting it's way to 160 quite quickly. All the while at idle.

EDGE

Went and installed the OE Delco O2 sensor in place of the generic aftermarket one. The BLM held at idle at 128 until I cracked the throttle. It then settled and idles around 144. Which is still lean, but much better than a pegged 160. The alternating Rich/Lean indication is also more consistent. This is just 10 minutes of idle on a cold engine. I've not driven it yet so hopefully this is a good indication in the right direction.

My current Bin is posted. it's a 6E mask.

EDGE

Joy and glee were premature. Still running way to lean. Which I don't get because the car is running really good and is a lot of fun with this Bin. I totally feel the difference. And it goes through fuel at the rate of an airliner so I don't know how it's lean. Of course I'm driving it hard, but 42 liters of fuel in 122 kilometers is atrocious. That's 6.76 miles per gallon.

One thing I failed to mention is my MAF is not stock. It does not have the expose filament inside. It's open on both ends. That's the way it was built. Not sure if that matters

EDGE

I give up. I've burned an another 12 Bins with various changes and nothing changes. In fact now I'm lean across the board. Doesn't go below 147. So at this point, if someone knows whats going on and can adjust this damn thing, send me a PayPal invoice. This is beyond my scope and patience

ULTM8Z

I need to re-calibrate on this.... I'm getting lost with all the changes.

So the datalog from bone stock factory memcal in post #23 above (IIRC) looked good (BLMs were close to ideal?). And you say it drove good as well, correct? What mask was that? I'm at work so I can't download attachments off the net.

ULTM8Z

For the MAF values in the data, what are the units?

I'm seeing numbers in there anywhere from 1000 to 2500...