bphage

Like the tittle says, I am seriously contemplating if I need to just give up on the IROC. I have an 88 IROC Z vert that I now have EBL in; I have so little time and have no one who really knows these cars to fall back on and give me a hand... at this point I have accomplished:

Fab 9" swap
New 700r4
3.5: drive shafter
357 ci forged piston with mild cam
EBL with WBO2
Custom coil over front suspension

Still to do
EBL - I just cant get it to work while support is great without a true dedicate manual, flow chart or some other organized way to approach the problems It is just taking to long.
Roll cage
Interior - seats steering wheel etc
redo brakes - need to match and tune not sure where I can find a place to tube brakes
Paint car
Still need help trying to see if I have an exhaust leak or other mechanical problem complicating tuning
Install and tune remote turbo

My choices are: 1 - part out the car as selling it would probably get me a lot less and by a new car. I can get a 2013 ZL1 vert for like 45k

2 - Give up on EBL and TPI and do a forged LS conversion - with additional needed work and engine I estimate 30K to complete

3 - miraculously find someone who can help tune the car and check the mechanical so I can dump the last 15-20k into interior, cage, paint and drive the dang car... at this point I think this is next to impossible.

What do you guys think? 1, 2, or 3?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In what way does the EBL not work? Can you connect to it and get data?

RBob.

bphage

I should be really clear - EBL is not the problem. I could not have made it as far as I have without EBL. The problem is the amount of time it is taking me to be able to make progress and the amount of time I really have available to me to do so. With the 60lb injectors I just can not get a good idle, I cant find anyone who will touch the car on a dyno - I did talk someone into letting me rent a dyno which helped but truthfully I bought the car something like 2001... and I still cant drive it... though I have grown in my understanding of cars I know that it is not possible for me to complete this project without real help. I don't mind paying for the help - but I have called every shop I could find in the San Francisco bay area that has anything remotely similar and no one will take my money -

I am struggling with the EBL and I suspect it is my abilities though I also need someone to verify the mechanicals and even if I get the ebl correct, I still need to find a place to do things like balance the brakes correctly and tune the suspension which also seems at this point like a pipe dream - unless I become independently wealthy and can buy a small peice of blacktop to test on.

In short I need to get this project going It was targeted to be done two years ago now but I also figured I could find a shop to help work on the car... I am at my limit given the amount of time I can dedicate to the car vs my learning curve.

mk1431

definatly choice 1 you probably ready for something turn key at this point IMO project cars suck they take all your money and time and you need alot of knowledge choice 1 with very mild tune be good just my 2 cents

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but, seriously? Tuning the brakes? Dialing in the suspension? This is what is holding you up since 2001? Post up your latest bin so we can take a look at it, this will at least take care of your tuning woes. You don't need dyno tuning, it is useless when you have your own datalogging ability. So long as your target afr, and target sa are where they need to be, what the heck is a dyno tune going to do? Fine tune? That is nonsense, that is something they will say to get you to come in and put your five hundred dollars down for three pulls. Don't fall for that fine tuning crap, it is a business especially when you have VE Learning ability with the EBL already installed...

bphage

I am looking for honest opinion... thank you for it.

My biggest current hold up is time... so by the time I get a change to get back to the car I have to relearn what I had in the past... I will work to get everything posted up. When I first bought the car in 2001 I was a poor college kid with lots of time... now money is less of an issue but time is all but gone.

My other limit is my mechanical knowledge... for example I have two possible mechanical problems that could be part of the tuning problem. 1st being a possible vacuum leak I cant find as the IAC steps are 35-40 at idle... I have taken the TPI apart 3 times with new seals, new vacuum lines etc... no change in steps with each rebuild even when I swapped to the 60lb injectors. The other is a possible exhaust leak in the rear of the passenger sided header... the wide band is in that side and the NB is in the driver side so this could also be part of my problem. I have TES headers with allen bolts and dropped the engine in the car with headers installed so now I cant get to that bolt and I have tried everything. I am unable to sort out these two things and thus its hard for me to know if this is part of my problem or if I am making it up. So I don't know if I currently trust my Wide Band as it will show a good AFR but still smells rich to me. I also now find that when I do further VE learns it starts to run worse... which I don't get at all. The 60lb injectors are definitely giving me grief... I could pull them run smaller injectors and get an external fuel pump to support the aeromotive 340 pump but I was trying to avoid as they tend to be loud and its a convertible. That would probably take me a few months to get done and try tuning again. I can get the 60lb injectors on OL but CL has been torture. I was going to try change to E85... if the problem is simply the injector size this would make it run better. I think the voltage tables are SNAFU too because when the fan turns on it stumbles... but trial and error is not something that is working for me at this point. I currently get to spend about a weekend a month to a month and a half on the car. Which is why I posted originally as I feel that given the realistic mount of time I have I need a much better plan on how to approach these problems because I haven't made enough progress as of lately. It takes me time to make it look reasonably good to... I really want this car to be hot... you can see the custom suspension and I think I can be proud of how the car looks now... just stuck.

bphage

So I decided to keep at it... already have like 25k in the dang car... went to start it and what would you know. It wouldn't start. Quick check of the battery showed 11.5 volts... swapped the battery after bench test showed it wouldn't hold a charge... and it wouldn't start. No spark!

Pulled a plug which had some fouling from being rich, wires are old but not abused or burnt... figured it was the common ICM. Swapped it out this morning and wouldn't you know. Fires right up... runs really rich now. I figure the ICM must be contributing to the problems... so back to square one.

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

Hang in there. There is a bunch of smart fellas here who are more than willing to help ya. After all, its just a SBC..... piece of cake..

Take it easy and focus on what the problem is. Deep breaths.

My brother gives me crap all the time about my car. He says hes going to buy a new vet and smoke me... I say bring it!! If I start to loose I will smash into him!! LOL jk

bphage

LOL thanks guys... I will keep plugging away. Couldn't have made it this far without any help form this board... Just so close... maybe I will be lucky and the ICM was a big part of my problem.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Why are you running such big injectors on a mild cammed 357ci? I am running 42 lb injectors with a Aeromotive 340 on my FIRST 421 ci. I won't lie I have my days were I have to walk away but I am learning alot along the way. I say get the right sized injectors and alot of your problems will go away.

Dominic Sorresso

Sounds like injectors are too big to get a decent PW for idle. We don't know what his FP is.

bphage

The injectors are sized as I have an efr 9180 that is going to go in place of the muffler I was looking to push 15psi with meth injection if needed. I didn't want to go too small as the in tank pump wouldn't be able to keep up at the required pressures and thus I would need a noisy external pump in a vert. I was going to give some e85 a try to see if that is really my problem... but it seems others have been able to get an idle with the same sized injectors - I think running the 60lb injector is just past my current skills/understanding.


I just started to get the fuel in the tank down so I was going to start with E85 this weekend.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

I would ditch the EBL an go with the Fast EFI .Its self tuning and self learning and has a life time warrenty .I read these tunning forums and they make it sound so easy for a newbe but it never is.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

LMAO and those "SELF TUNING" aftermarket JUNK stand alones are just that. I am not a fan of them in the least.

If I did anything it would be a LSx 0411 24x coil per cylinder PCM setup.

bphage

Yah my back up plan is an EROD engine with a pair of efr turbos... this at least I can pay someone to tune.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

I'm sure you have never bought or used the latest Fast easy Efi System.I Know people who have.I have seen them fight and fight to get the other systems to work but couldn't.They went to the Fast system and it solved all there problems.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

If you are not here to learn and tune your own, go elsewhere.


And you will pay, and pay until its acceptable for you.

Good luck, hope it works out.

CORV3TT3

I had Holley at one time. I'm sure the FAST system is good too. They are wizard based. You trade off the ability to adjust a whole slew of things for ease of installation. It's a compromise.

There's almost no limit to the types of adjustments you can make within tables, sclars, or flags with EBL. While that creates a lot of D-I-Y, you do gain the ability to dial EVERYTHING in. Moreover... you will also learn why you needed to make changes and how your system has unique needs that a base tune (or system) just won't be able to do.


Again- FAST, Holley, Atomic, and others are neat. Just not as... dynamic... as EBL.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

Fast 2.0 gives you the same ability to adjust every thing that you can do with Dynamic EBL. But after your done screwing up your tune and you car won't work right you can go back to a tune that's spot on.

CORV3TT3

EBL has 8 flash banks. You can switch back and forth quite easily.


If I can figure a decent tune out... anyone can. It just takes persistence. Something most folks lack in a microwave popcorn isn't fast enough world.

"Good" is the enemy of "great". Anyone can get to a good tune... a great tune takes work, attention to detail, and trial and error. JMHO.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have messed with these newer "self learning" systems and they are by no means "spot on".

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

As an EBL-P4 owner and user, I can assure you that this in not the case. You are making tuning something that it most certainly isn't, that being difficult. Let me explain something to you Steve, as a tuner, all you're doing is tuning the amount of fuel to a given amount of air. The engine takes in x amount of air, and you tune your fueling around that. Sound difficult to you? I can assure you that it isn't when you understand what stoichiometric is with the particular fuel you are using. You set stoich to whichever ratio you desire; idle, part throttle, wide open throttle, then allow the EBL to self tune, simple...

With each Learn, the O2 correction percentage lowers, and ideally you want as close to 0% correction which will take a few Learns to achieve, unless you start with a bin that is extremely close. Is that too difficult? Timing? So long as your reference and idle state are where they need to be in relation with your cam's characteristics, is it already done for you in the bin's provided. Over 90% of the time, tuners have trouble because of a bad sensor(s) giving the ECM skewed information, bad wiring hookup, or their is a problem mechanically with either the fueling system, ignition system, charging system, or heavy vacuum leaks. The ECM does as it's told, period, end of story. A FAST 2.0 system is designed for a vehicle that did not come with a tune-able ECM...

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

Corv3TT3 your post Is the closest to what I was getting at.It takes persistence to get to a good tune with the older systems. They have a long learning curve.Something the folks on here that have been doing it awhile don't explain to a newbe.Technology moves on.I guess the guys in this tuning section are still using 1980's cell phones and desk top computers.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sorry, but you have no clue what you're talking about, and it is irrelevant. I control my EBL-P4 with my tablet, along with my GPS, and satellite radio. I don't even need a PC anymore. As for Learns, it takes a few seconds for the EBL to adjust to a VE change due to a bolt on, injector change, cam change, engine change, whatever you throw at it. It is impossible conversing with someone who does not know what they are talking about, so kindly no longer debate the EBL until you're well versed with its' abilities...

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

You just made my point and then some.You have a tablet. GPS.and satellite radio plus EBL-P4 That's a lot of hardware and software.Fast 2.0 gives you all the stuff you need to be up and running.What don't you understand about that.Read the original posters post again.He's frustrated with EBL system and is at his wits end.YOU have obviously been playing with EBL for a long time.

CORV3TT3

No- my comment about persistence wasn't about the tools or the age of the tech. It was about getting into the fine details of a tune. The devil is in the details... and no wizard based system could t do some of the things I needed from EBL. Like using a VAFPR.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

You missed the part in my post that Said that the newest Fast system Lets the user do what you say and more in the advanced tuning section of the system.And once again you prove my point in your post.To the average Joe like me I don't no what Vafpr is or all the XYZ terminology that is posted in this section of the third gen forum. The fast 2.0 does let you get into the fine details.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Now you are proving to me that you don't know what you are talking about. There are two basic FAST systems: the XFI and the EZ-EFI.

The XFI requires user tuning, just like the folks here on DIY_PROM.

The EZ-EFI is self tuning, with no or very little user tunable features.

Not sure what your agenda is, but you sure trashed bphage's thread. If you want to discuss the self tuning EZ-EFI, the EFI and ECM board is the place, not the DIY_PROM board.

RBob.