htrdbmr

I've been tuning this car for what seems like forever, and I've got things pretty close. My question is, do you smooth the entire table when you're done, or just the area that you modified? ( Say 3200 RPM from 50 to 90 KPA ) I'm referring to the smoothing tool, not manually smoothing the graph.

Dominic Sorresso

I usually do it manually in the areas that seem inconsistent w the overall trend. I l like to know who uses the smoothing routine in TPRT, and what factor do you use?

htrdbmr

When I manually smooth the inconsistancies, it seems like future data logs get further away from where I want to be. I use a smoothing function of 0.5, results from that are not that great either.

Dominic Sorresso

That's some of my experience, although I find that the car accelerates more smoothly when I did go through the smoothing exercise. I ask about the smoothing function because I don't have a gauge on what the real difference is between a .9 v .5 factor.
Yes a log after manual smoothing sometimes seems to reintroduce similar inconsistencies as were there before.

htrdbmr

I had hoped that by smoothing the graph either by using the TP function or by hand would allow the gaps to be filled-such as a lean or rich condition at 1500 rpm, or 2100, or 2300 etc. The more I get into this, the more I see that I don't know what I'm doing. The good thing is, it doesn't cost anything other than gas. So after you data log, do you continue to smooth out lumps and bumps as they arise?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Are you tuning closed loop or open ?
You have PE disabled etc
I disabled PE,CCP,EGR,AIr as I run all emissions stuff still idk if you are
Is weather about the same when tuning ?
Engine warm when logging ?
My experience is that tuning with BLM will get you close to where you VE tables
Did you smooth base table stock before starting to tuning VE ?
You will get dips due cells your not hitting also how are you datalogging and driving plays a part in getting good hits and majority of cells and have to be consistent on how you drive

I hand smooth first and then use the tool ".9" and smooth by kpa then by rpm

If your majority of the time rich and or majority time lean I would subtract or add fuel to entire table which helps bring VE table closer and help bring out more clearly rich lean spots and I had subtract those areas by hand u till there in line then hand smooth and re log

Tuning in openloop with wide band is a lot faster and locks on VE pretty well which is what I did and re enabled closed loop and work on PE

But I smooth entire table not certain areas I look at the trend when adjustments are made and how the VE wants to go and smooth entire table to flow that trend I think of it like a wave and keeping it smooth as possible and flow well

This how my tables look i adjusted VE tables after this but get the idea
Also idk what Mask or ecm your using but for $8D you have to match 1600rpm for low and high VE tables

Hope my info helps

How my VE tables look after smoothing still adjusted some areas after this

Dominic Sorresso

Where you have overlapping tables, which do you use to match the other? Low to high or vice versa?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I copy low to high personally and works for me

Both shouldn't be far of anyways and again you will see the trend on where the VE tables are going

1600 rpm on high and low should match in essence you want one smooth table from low VE to High VE table

htrdbmr

I'm using 8D. When you say you smooth kpa, then rpm, I assume you mean you smooth an rpm value across the kpa range (horizontally), then a kpa value across the rpm range (vertically) I tune in closed loop, and try to stay out of PE. I drive the same route every log, and since I'm in Fl, it's always hot. Thanks for the reply, I'll try it your way.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Try different routes also and various part throttle conditionts

I disabled PE completely so I don't have to worry about enabling PE

Because you can enable it if your at right driving conditions and or going up hill

Everything is based off your VE table

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I'm from Florida to from Miami lived in Hallandale Miramar south Miami etc I'm in Cali due to me being in navy

htrdbmr

I remember "sandy eggo" from a previous lifetime, 1965-66. It was the quintessencial navy town back then.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Lol yea still is but I'm corpsman aka medic with marines so I'm with marines now till next duty station lol but that's way before my life time lol I'm only 30yr old been in 11yearsl

How I disabled PE was Max out Enable TPS
And zero out AFR change

It was just difficult for me to remember to keep out PE while logging , and I focus more on getting good datalog and getting good counts and hitting a good amount of the cells , really help

Also what are you using to calculate your BLM numbers I have auto tune excel and also regular excel that all you have to do is copy past And will give you course or fine tune adjustments you prob have already but if not then I can send to you if need be

htrdbmr

I'll disable PE this evening and try again. Last night I ran secondary roads, trying to only work on 800 to 1600 rpm. I do the math for BLM correction, never heard of auto tune excel. I would like to try it, if you would send it. BZ on 11 yrs, carry on.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Pm your email

Will make it a lot more easer in beginning I did that really extended things and made tuning more like a 2nd job lol

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

IIRC the excel sheet is in this thread also but just shoot me your PM

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-8D

Towards end of thread like next to last page could be in thread above also is a good xdf file that's been setup pretty well also I like it but everybody's software is setup is different
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...or-a-better-8D

84Elky

Try using this after you log:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-log-file.html
It says it's for S_AUJP v5 but can be used with any BIN/ADX -- just have to change some log file column descriptions to match your log file so it can find the data it needs. Among other things, it shows in VE Table format the average BLM and INT. For example, for every log sample where MAP is 56-60 and RPM is 1301-1400, the average BLM and INT is reported.

Regarding smoothing, it certainly makes the VE table graphs look pretty but am uncertain of the benefit because it can cause inconsistencies and unwanted changes as others have said here. Smoothing in TPro with 0.9 repeated 4-5 times works great. But the BIN code doesn't know if VE values are smoothed. It merely uses the current MAP and RPM and determines a VE value to use. But because of the way the code determines the VE value to use, it may not be from and entry in the table, but only an interpolated approximation. See the "PS" below for how a VE value is determined and the possible effects of smoothing.

Having a smooth table to start would seem to be beneficial because of the interpolation, but it's not the be-all end-all. Even when smooth, adjacent VE values can produce quite different BLMs. For example, consider the following BLMs from a 1+ hour log:
---------MAP--->55---60---65
RPM-->1300---129--127--130
RPM-->1400---131--130--133

Assuming the VE table was perfectly smooth before logging (which it was), one would think the BLMs would also be smooth, but many times they are not as seen above. This results from interpolation and the use of VE values from multiple VE table cells. Seems it's one more reason why tuning is an iterative process.
Just one opinion.

Am currently in the process of doing some tests on this very issue (smooth VE or not). More after tests.



PS ---
Here's how a value is obtained from the VE tables (also Spark). Warning - this is is detailed. Skip to "Bottom line" below to avoid.
Assume: RPM=1425 and MAP=58
VE Table:
1400 RPM: 55 kPa=50VE; 60 kPa=52VE (VE values=decimal for simplicity)
1500 RPM: 55 kPa=70VE; 60 kPa=67VE (VE values=decimal for simplicity)

The code first gets VE values from the 1500 RPM/55 & 60 MAP cells (next higher RPM boundary if it exists [1500], MAP range for 58=55 to 60). Next, it gets similar VE values from 1400 RPM/55 & 60 MAP (lower RPM [1400], MAP range for 58=55 to 60). The first of the upper RPM kPa VE values (1500/55 70VE) is subtracted from the first of the lower RPM kPa VE values (1400/55 50VE). The second of the kPa VE values are similarly subtracted (1400/60 52VE - 1500/60 67VE). If either of the VE differences is negative, the result is inverted. The two VE differences are evaluated and the first kPa VE difference is adjusted for any major deviation from the second kPa VE difference. Next the adjusted, first kPa VE difference is multiplied by a percentage. That percentage is for RPM adjustment if RPM is not a row border value. With RPM=1425, it's not a border value (1400 is), so the % would be 25% into the range 1400 to 1500. Finally, 25% of the adjusted first kPa VE difference is added to the lower RPM first kPa VE value. Assuming no major variation between the 2 kPa VE differences and thus no adjustment to the first kPa VE difference, here is the code simulation result for this example:
First (55) kPa VE difference: 50VE - 70VE = -20VE, and inverted because negative = 20VE
25% if 1st (55) kPa VE difference: 20VE x 0.25 = 5VE
Add 25% to 1st (55) kPa VE value: 50VE + 5VE = 55VE (the VE used for 1425 RPM, 58 kPa)

Bottom line, two important things:
1. The 55VE is a calculated value based solely on VE differences in a kPa range across 2 RPMs. It is NOT a value from any cell in the VE table! VE will ONLY be a VE table cell value when RPM equals a VE table border.
2. No values in the VE array (table) between 1400 RPM/60 kPa and 1500 RPM/55 kPa are ever used -- only VE differences for 2 different RPMs in the kPa range are used. Does that mean that smoothing the table has no effect on the calculation to arrive at a final VE, but rather only affects the table contour (ie - VE differences at given RPMs and kPas)?

Interesting! Addressing the question someone raised about smoothing direction, this would seem to say it's more important RPM to RPM than for all kPas for a given RPM.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Good info there

there different methods of smoothing it's a subjective question to ask there's no one right way and everybody goes about tuning differently

What ever method you feel most comfortable doing then do it that way

Comparing un smooth vs smoothed VE tables in openloop using wideband my AFR didn't jump around much

Drivability and smoothness improved also

Now it doesn't really need to be silky smooth but again you don't want major high low peaks

Also starting with a smooth table generally help provide a better VE table outcome vs one not that's not
Stock VE tables are smooth but I smooth them out slightly just out of habit
I do .9 but only 2-3 times as I majority hand smooth the table

84Elky

Well the results are in. Here's what was done, twice:

• Start with a smooth VE table that needs some changes
• Log that VE table (same route, speeds, temps [ambient, coolant, MAT], duration of log, all for as much consistency as possible)
• Change the VE table as indicated by the log
• Then make 2 BINs: one with VE just as changed (NOT Smoothed), and another with VE Smoothed after the changes

The above was done twice. Compared to the beginning smoothed VE, the UNsmoothed VE resulted in BLMs that changed more than the Smoothed VE, some times overshooting the desired 128 in the other direction. The BLM changes with the Smoothed VE were more gradual and tended to not overshoot 128. For me, looks like smoothing rules.

Dominic Sorresso

Elky,

Whenever I have smoothed a VE table and then driven the car for logging, I have found that the motor runs more smoothly. The acceleration also feels more seamless and consistently throughout the rpm band. Sometimes the smoothed area will snap back to original shape on the next iteration of the cal.
How does that square w your experience?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Throttle transitions are smoother and it helps with keeping trims from jumping all over.
Blm and afr will be tighter around your desired afr setup
Like stated above drive ability and smoothness and engine happiness are improved

From open loop and closed loop looking at blm , O2 sensor , wideband soothing provides slot of pros

Using wideband I've seen afr jump +/- 1-3 points depending on driving condition on a unsmoothed ve table AE and PE will be off also to include decel

So big picture above post are spot on

htrdbmr

I have disabled PE, logged and smoothed over the course of 4 runs. and things are coming together. What should I do when I re-enable PE? - Log and smooth all over again? Or do I log and then adjust PE thresholds?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Are you using wide band only true way to dial in PE

The way I did it was I tuned PE was thru the base VE table with PE disabled going up hills to get in upper rpm 80-90-100kpa range
In closed loop I got narrowband around .900 in those kpa areas using VE adjustments

Once I got in afr / narrowband range I like and felt best I the enabled PE and adjusted PE afr % of if I needed to and making to much of a adjustment

Because everything is based on the VE table so imo I did everything thru VE then made fine adjustments to PE thru PE % change

Works best for me
Once I locked in base VE tables I only went back to it here and there and only worked on 80-90-100 kpa areas

I'm sure there other methods so just use the one your comfy with

Dominic Sorresso

Since PE is O/L, you really need a WbO2 to do it properly. That's when I schedule a dyno session and only after I am pretty happy with the part throttle performance. Although before starting any tuning, you'll want to make sure you have enough fuel flow to meet AFR and Injector DC requirements at WOT.

84Elky

Dom -- Pretty much the same. Each iteration of a table appears to adjust to where it needs to be, even though smoothing thereafter may slightly alter values that have been previously "perfected"

htrdbmr

I have been logging and smoothing every run for over a week, and I always have a lean condition at around 2800-3200 rpm. It is very noticeable at a part-throttle acceleration, sometimes to the point that the motor just will not go past 3k. From a dig, it will go past 3k with only a minor hesitation, and then pull strong to 6k. It seems I can't tune this out, so therefore it must be a mechanical issue. I don't see how I can't supply enough fuel at 3k, but I can supply enough from 3500-6000. What am I missing?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

email me I can take a look how lean is it

Just richen up those areas and see what happens Could be a underlying issue also could be the tune

If it's way out of whack compared to the rest of the table then I would investigate further
How does everything else looks at that time

But sounds like it's sensing lean then it dumps fuel or it could be the opposite as its rich and pulling fuel
Hence seeing lean conditions have to look at the log to really tell what's going on

alot of things are I play
Does it happen during initial acceleration