Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Hey everyone, Ive got a 85 TA thats running a vortec headed 350 with 2.02/1.60 valves, A holley stealth ram, flat top pistons, cc503 cam with 1.6 rockers( 0.536/0.544 lift 224/230 duration) and an 8.8 ford with 3.73's all run by an EBL flash.

When this car had a 3.27 9 bolt it ran a best of 13.32 at 102 mph. with a big intake restriction from an slp intake. map kpa would start dropping from 100kpa 4k rpm it would up around 92 kpa at 6k rpm.

My first night at the track this with 3.73's and no intake restricition nothing time wise changed. It ran a best of 13.38 at 103 mph. 60 foot didnt change at all. I feel like this things not getting it on the big end like it should. I know it needs to be leaned out a bit in the high rpms. I was just wondering if you guys might see anything else that I should adjust.

I posted a log of one of my runs. I would really appreciate any advice.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

2 things here

Weather conditions

And gear change

Those two things could skew results if not a true A B A test. A car can change several tenths and 2 mph in widely varying weather conditions.

The gear change would mean shift points may need to be optimized. On my ls1 trans am, in similar conditions at the track, only picked up .06 in 60' and same in the 1/4 mile when going from 2.73 to 3.73, and no other changes. No shift points or tune changes

Some combos like gear, some dont. Some need to change shift points to optimize the new rpm band you operate in with the new gears

That said, what you want to try is establish a baseline run at the track, then slowly start leaning wot fuel. As long as the runs are good runs and consistant, watch your mph change at the 1/8 and 1/4. If it picks up keep going abit more. If it doesnt then dont change fuel and work on something else

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your long term fuel trims need attention before entering power enrichment, and your total timing is somewhat low for you targeted RPM.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, it needs attention. Ive never been able to get into the 100 map range to tune it until the other night. Ill definitely play around with the timing once fueling is closer. When you say i need to adjust the trims before entering PE are you talking about disabling PE making some runs to get the fueling close and then re-enabling it?

Totally understand the weathers affect on the E.T. I know I know it was a lot more humid this time out although temp was similar. That's interesting to know about the gear ratios. I've never heard of a gear change making no difference it hard to make sense of. I think ill be heading back out to the track on friday so ill try to get a baseline and see how it goes.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You can disable the PE if you want to rely on the VE Learn to do it for you, or you can monitor your fueling directly from the datalog in terms of where your RPM vs KPA show a lean condition just before PE, calculate your fueling based on a percentage derived in conjunction with what your BLM and O2mv are telling you, then go into the VE table manually and add the necessary fuel in those areas just prior to where you enter PE essentially locking your BLM at 128, then datalog again immediately after to confirm...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

You wouldn't happen to know how to get the EBL to learn at WOT would you? I have tried a few times but have never got it to make any corrections i've locked it out of closed loop and checked the learning thresholds but it wont just wont learn.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

WOT Learning is possible with a Wideband O2 sensor, and you should be able to set up your Wideband VE Learning through the WUD. Go to your preferences in the WUD and in the General Setup tab select WB instead of BLM, then click on the ADC Channels tab right next to the General Setup tab and input your Wideband preference information (Device, Filter, WB or Fuel)...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Yep, I've done all that. I guess ill get to see if it decides to work tonight. Thanks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Skip learning

Manually tell it what you want it to do

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Made some good progress tonight. Got the fuel pretty well in line not quite perfect but pretty good, and much better then before. Car ran a best of 13.258 at 104.17.One pass hit 105 but i spun the tires really bad and only netted a 13.4. It was actually high school drags tonight I ran in the alumni class and made it to the final and we hit curfew. So I've got one car to race tomorrow morning. Hopefully this thing stays consistent. I noticed a few degrees of knock retard around 4k ill have to post a log of that tomorrow.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Calculations are showing about 300 horsepower running 13.25 in a vehicle weighing approximately 3500 pounds. Your injector duty cycle is at 80% in the datalog, which shows you are still running the stock 22-lb injectors, or close to that size. Did you bump the timing up some once you adjusted your fueling? Let's see that log.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Injectors are rated at 30lbs at 43.5 psi im running about 46 psi with key on. Race weight is probably closer to 3700. I did bump up timing a few degrees. Heres the log.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Something is way off then. However this explains why you are running so rich. Look at your log, at idle your IAC is wide open at 145 steps, your WB is showing a 12.3 air/fuel ratio, and your NB is reporting 950mv, and this is all at 750-RPM and 4% injector duty cycle. You need to lower your fuel pressure at the rail to 38-psi with the engine running and vacuum line connected. If you are set on running 46-psi for whatever reason then you need to compensate your fueling in the utility, did you do that?

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I did all that the RBob helped me set it up awhile back. Reason why I upped the pressure is because I was running 27lb injectors at first and they weren't enough I turned up the fuel pressure to see if I could lower the duty cycle but it didn't work. I just never bothered to lower it. If i lower the pressure where will that put my duty cycle at WOT if I remember correctly you don't want to go over 90% or something around there.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

At 43 psi your 30 pound injectors are good for 400 horsepower at 80% duty cycle. Unless you plan on making more horsepower than that then your duty cycle will be fine. Lower your rail pressure to 38 with the engine running and vacuum line connected on the regulator, then do another VE learn with the wideband.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Ill give it a try. Curious what im trying to achieve doing this. Am I doing it so ill have more finite adjustment when it comes to the fueling. Also forgot to mention In the VE in the whats up display I get message that says Overflow on VE: 5200RPM 100kpa. Any idea what that means?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The overflow goes hand and hand with what I was saying. The EBL uses a predetermined algorithm, which is why you need to input the correct fuel parameters between the fuel injectors and the fuel pressure. Example, if you are running 46-psi fuel pressure with 30-lb injectors (with the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line connected), then the injectors are really flowing 33-lb's worth of fuel. This would need to be calculated in the utility, then the values taken from that utility and placed into the BPC vs VAC in the bin itself. Again, you can run whatever fuel pressure you want to, but it needs to be compensated for in the utility. But to reiterate, 46-psi of fuel pressure is overkill...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

I agree that 46 psi is overkill. I double checked the BPC vs VAC in the bin and the calculator the values match up. Ive got 46 psi with key on thats the number I used to calculate the tables. From the example you gave it sounds like I need to use the fuel pressure the rail sees at idle is that correct? Also does the calculator automatically assume the injector flow rate you give it is at 43.5 psi? Also I really appreciate the help, I didn't think id be learning as much as I am right now when I started this thread. Thank you.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm looking at the utility program now, with your setup going down the seven categories in the utility calculation; MPFI, 8 Cylinders, 350 C.I, 43.5 psi, Injector Flow Rate 30.0#, Map Sensor 1 Bar, Tuner Pro Version 5, it gives you a 139 BPC vs VAC as the value you would enter into Tuner Pro. This value is for 43.5-psi key on fuel pressure and 38-psi engine running and vacuum line connected. If you are running 46-psi key on only (which gives you 41-psi engine running and vacuum line connected) then the BPC vs VAC value would be 135. However if you are running 46-psi with key on, engine running and with the vacuum line connected (which would mean 51-psi key on, not running, and no vacuum reference) then the BPC vs VAC value would be 128. All fuel injectors out there are flowed at 43.5 fuel pressure as the base...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You enter the fuel pressure into the utility calculation. Note that when you select MPFI mode, make sure you delete any possible TBI fuel pressure that might still be in there after switching categories. Also note that you cannot check off vacuum reference with MPFI, so you have to utilize the base pressure you are running. To reiterate, if you see 46-psi at the rail with then engine running and vacuum line disconnected, then be sure to use 46.0 as your fuel pressure in the utility calculator. If you are seeing 46-psi at the rail with the engine running and vacuum line connected, then be sure to use 51.0 as your fuel pressure in the utility calculator. If you take my advice and bring the fuel pressure back to 38-psi at the rail with the engine running and vacuum line connected, then be sure to use 43.5 in the utility calcuator for the fuel pressure. Make sure you indicate the exact size of the fuel injectors being used, don't change their flow rate in the calculator based off of a higher fuel pressure, the utility will adjust their flow for you if need be...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, and 13 psi for TBI setups. The EBL Utility has a help screen that briefly explains all entries (ALT+H, H).

RBob.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Well I am an idiot. Went out and checked the pressure again and turns out I read the gauge wrong when I first set it. Key on its actually at 50psi and idle with vac line disconnected is like 55 psi...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

I set the fuel pressure to 38 psi with the engine running and vacuum line connecting. What all do I need to change in the bin now? I know that VE and AE will need to be adjusted. Which AE tables should I adjusting? Is it the AE- TPS PW and AE- MAP PW tables that I need to adjust? Is there anything else I should be adjusting?

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Verify ALL parameters relating to your installed injectors. Sounded like the offsets/compensations were not changed when the hardware was.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Don't touch the AE unless you need to, you will know if you need to add AE when you test drive, and you will know if you need to pull AE when you compare the actual air/fuel ratio with your targeted ratio in the WUD Analysis. Keep finessing the VE and SA now that the correct fuel pressure is there...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Took it out for a drive today with the BPC tables and fuel pressure corrected. As expected it was way lean about two points lean everywhere on the wideband. IAC steps were much lower I adjusted them down to about 40 steps. Want to get back to the track next Friday so hopefully I can get the VE tables back in line by then.

Edit: Just noticed in one of my bins where the fuel pressure was still at 55psi I had a cell that was maxed in the high speed VE table. This got thinking that based on the amount of fuel I need to add back in at low rpms I may be headed into a problem with the VE tables being maxed out. Thoughts?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No, you just need to continue finessing the VE and SA. The data with the 55-psi is skewed. Remember that you stated that you are about 3700 pounds running 30# injectors. We can't look at the current ET/trap because the tuning was off, so you need to finesse the VE and SA in conjunction with the corrected fuel pressure then take it out to the track again for another run to get an idea of where you are. Your 30# injectors are good for 400 horsepower, which in a vehicle weighing 3700 pounds will be good for low 12's in the 1/4 mile, so until you exceed that, you are in no way maxing anything out. Keep those VE Learns coming, work on those timing tables, then get another run in and post your results so everyone can get a better understanding of where you are in terms of variables...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

After driving around and logging for a few days. Cruise is pretty much dialed in now. Hoping to get back out to the track Friday as long as the weather holds out. I found a hump in the VE table in the lower rpms at 80 kpa. Im not to sure what to do with it. My guess is its cam overlap and I should just smooth it out.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Good deal. Post up the results from the track when you're finished this coming weekend, as the track always has the final say...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Well, really crappy night out at the track only got 2 runs in 5 hours, car under performed, and my dad spun a rod bearing in his 87 lt1 t56 car on his first pass. First time that cars been out to the track.

Ran a 13.495 @101.8 and a 13.56 @ 99.8 lots of knock retard on this pass. VE table is maxed in 3 cells at 100kpa. Heres the log of my second run.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The bottom of your SA Main Table is pulling your spark advance down to 15* at idle, that needs to be fixed in correlation with your SA - Idle State, which should be close to 22*, so your SA should be reading closer to that at idle. Those 30# injectors are at 80% Duty Cycle during that run, and it brings it right back to 300 horsepower at that vehicle weight, ET and trap speed. Looking a your wideband the fueling needs to be finessed more during wide open throttle, also your WB is reporting 11.6 air/fuel at idle with the IAC at 108 steps prior to your run, so be sure to open your fast idle screw a little bit to bring those numbers where they need to be. You want 14.7 at idle on the WB, and 25-40 steps on the IAC at idle. Also remember that your sixty foot is very important, what was it by the way? Every tenth in your sixty foot equates to 2-3 tenths in the ET, so it is important to monitor that during each run because a tenth or two will bring you closer to 13 seconds flat. Shift points are key as well, especially with a gear change...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

60 foots were 1.95 and 1.97. My passes last week were also 1.9's. I had the IAC steps dialed in but every VE learn fuel gets added in at idle because of cam overlap im pretty sure. I have SA locked at 15 at idle. Thought I had it set higher then that... Where are you getting that 22 degrees of SA from? Is that just a general number for idle SA? What should I do about the maxed VE cells, its maxed at 4800,5200, and 5600 at 100kpa. How will the gears affect shift points does more gear tend to like higher shift points and less gears like lower shift points? Thank you for help.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Running 15* at idle state is for a bone stock TBI engine, stock TPI engines are set to 20* at idle state, you are running a modified 350 with a very healthy camshaft, you need to be closer to 22*. This is part of the reason why your O2's are the way they are. Set your idle state to at least 20* if you don't want 22*, and fix your SA Main Table in that area to maintain that at idle. Your sixty foot times are a blessing, meaning there is so much room for improvement. Bottom line is you have a 12 second car that is not being launched properly due to a tune that needs adjustment, and tires that are breaking loose. Your torque converter is coupling at 2800-RPM, so you're running a very good converter.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Anything else I should be looking at besides the idle SA? I agree that the 60 foot times suck for this setup, my 305 had the exact same 60's... That said the tires don't spin, most I get is a chirp. How Did you determine where the converter is coupling at? Im very interested in that. I have absolutely no idea what its supposed to be stalling at. I think my trans guy said it was a GM high stall or something like that.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Look at your datalog, when you floor the throttle your mph begins a tad after 2800-RPM, as that is when the converter is coupling. It all happens in an instant, so this tells me you are not power braking, you're just waiting for a green light during idle and hitting the throttle. As you're waiting for the tree light to descend before the race, you need to have your left foot on the brake, and your right foot on the throttle keeping RPM just before the coupling point. When you see the green light on the tree or just before that, that is when you flash the converter by flooring the throttle then letting go of the brake. As for not spinning, your converter is coupling at 2800-RPM, over 1000-RPM higher than the stock converter, and you're running a much stronger engine than a 305, yet pulling the same sixty foot times. Fix your idle SA, correct your VE because your WB is reporting 11.6 just before you give it throttle, and lower your IAC steps at idle because they are too high. Your engine is starving for air at idle, open your throttle body a tad.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Increase all entries in the BPC - BPC vs VAC table by 10%.

Lower all VE table values by the same 10%.

Carry on...

RBob.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Thanks RBob!

Ill get to work on fixing idle then. Ill try stalling it higher next time i'm out at the track.

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Is it alright to have 0 IAC steps steps with the car warmed up in park? I've got about 30 when I put it in gear.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If you are seeing 0 steps in Park, this means the engine is getting its' needed air elsewhere other than the IAC, because 0 steps means the IAC is closed. You have to balance the fast idle screw on the throttle body. With the engine warmed up, and with your eyes on the WUD screen, back off on the fast idle screw until you see 25 steps. Your IAC steps will be higher in gear because there is a load, it's normal...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Got it done. Timing is set at 22 degrees, wideband is showing about 14.7-15.0, and idle steps are at about 25 steps in park and 60 in drive.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Great job...

Keep dialing in your part & wide open throttle fueling, and work on that launch off of the foot brake...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Went back out to the track tonight. First pass was my best pass of the night. 60ft was a 1.863 ET was 13.285 at 100.44. launched at about 1700 RPM. I got 8 passes in. messed with the timing a bunch because of some knock counts that didn't want to go away from 4000-4800 ended up with about 30-32 degrees of timing by the end of the night. still had 1-2 degrees of knock retard. I ran about half my passes with the intake on. I usually take if off because its a restriction. Got the fueling perfect with the intake on then decided to see what would happen if I took the intake off. With an open throttle body it was way rich which I find odd because its less restrictive which means more air will go into the motor which should mean it needs more fuel to burn it. My other thought is that it gets rich because the air its taking in is hotter then air it is taking from the intake ducting.

I think I found my problem as to why this thing doesn't pull up top like it should. My VE table is highest at 5200 RPM I actually had to raise BPC vs VAC table twice tonight to because it wanted so much fuel. After i hit 5200rpm the VE drops like a rock to 5600 it drops 10 points by 5600rpm and over 20 points by 6000.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Great run, you're a tenth of a sixty foot away from breaking the 12 second ET barrier. Stall that converter closer to 2500-RPM, and that should do the trick. Correct, the air being taken in inside the engine bay with the cold air intake removed is much hotter, therefore less dense, and this in turn will effect your air/fuel ratio. The O2 correction will correct for it, but it will still embellish a richer mixture overall that way...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

You think so? I got it up 2100 once and the 60 was a 1.932 although it was pretty lean when it launched.

Here's what I was talking about the the fueling just taking a nose dive right after 5200.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, I am more than sure you will see a 12 second ET with another tenth off of the sixty foot, but this of course is providing your tuning is correct and not holding back upon take off. Timing needs to be there, as well as the fueling, and you need to hook properly. If you pulled a 1.8x sixty foot and were rewarded with a 13.2 ET you will see a 12.9 ET with a solid 1.7x sixty foot, but again, the tuning needs to be there. Did you record an entire datalog of the run? If so, post it up so we can see what is going on. It might not necessarily be in the tuning, you might have a mechanical issue with the fueling at higher RPM's...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Here's the log of that run with the 1.9 60ft.
I also think its a mechanical issue at high RPM's. I dont know what could be causing it. The motor just doesn't want anymore fuel after that 5200 RPM mark.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your fueling is fine after 5200-RPM all the way up to 6000-RPM, the wideband is reporting close to the target air/fuel ratio of 12.8 at those upper RPM's, so you don't want anymore fuel up there. However, your issue is before 5200-RPM. You stalled the converter up to 2200-RPM then released, and the air/fuel target upon going wide open throttle from that point is 12.8, but your wideband is nowhere near that until 5500-RPM, so you are too lean off throttle during that run from 2200-RPM to 5500-RPM. Now is the time to look at your acceleration enrichment, because the incoming air is too great for the fueling to overcome, you need to tune for a pump shot (AE) to give the fueling a head start to compensate. The timing is a little low up there as well, but tune your acceleration enrichment first...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

So tune AE so its a bit richer then 12.8 so it has a more fuel to compensate for the rush of air does that sound about right? Also my concern with the VE drop wasn't that the fueling off it was that I always felt like I was losing power up top and its looking like the VE table is confirming that the power just drops off after 5200. For tuning AE is there any difference between the map pw table and the tps pw besides one being bases of of dmap and the other dtps?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Look at your datalog again. The moment you go full throttle at 2200-RPM, the target air/fuel ratio is triggered to a predetermined 12.8 air/fuel ratio the moment it see's wide open throttle, but your fueling is too slow to react and it is left stationary at 14.0 as per the wideband and it gradually makes its' way down to 12.8 from 14.0 but it doesn't reach 12.8 air/fuel until your well over 5000-RPM. The moment you hit the throttle at 2200-RPM, and when the target air/fuel goes to 12.8, you want your acceleration enrichment to add "just enough" fuel to get your actual air/fuel which is still hovering at 14.0 much closer to 12.8 at 2200-RPM, not at 5000+RPM. Also, the brick wall that you are feeling on the top end is not your VE, it is your timing. You are running a Holley Stealth Ram that is designed to pull you up to 6500-RPM, but your total timing is only 31 degrees, when most SBC's are set to 34 - 36 degrees total timing. Trust me when I say that one degree of timing makes a world of difference on the top end, let alone four to five. Fix your fueling first, then add some timing on the top end in small incriments...

Dskeezy16

iTrader: (1)

Looks like your right about the timing. I took a look at some of my older bins with more timing up top and the VE drop wasnt there. Also makes sens because I only noticed the VE drop when i started taking timing out to get rid of the knock counts. Ill get working on the AE.