lakeffect2

After getting the motor reassembled and mated to the rebuilt transmission. Theengine will never start without staring fluid sprayed into the filter.

TPI using EBL system, base table was #3005 as downloaded from the EBL website.

New regulator adjusted to 46lbs, 32 lb/hr injectors, 406ci sbc,
Even after adding to mthe crank fuel table several times to the program, now at 25ms at 50-100F seems no better than before.

When I see Stock tables with smaller injectors and fewer ms for cranking, When wondering what is going on. I do not smell raw fuel as though it would now be flooded.

I have also lowered the AFR in the crank AFR table as well

After I get it started the idle is reasonable.

Larry

Is the fuel pump priming at Key on? I added more fuel in the VE table in the 400-600 rpm at 90-100 KPa and it starts much faster. It never does a learn in that area below idle speed.

lakeffect2

Yes, pump is priming. I can hear it run, and pressure builds to the 46 lbs, as viewed on the gauge hooked up at the Schrader valve

I had just read a sentence in a thread last night wher Rrob was cautioning about not pulling fuel from the low rpm, high pka areas, as that part of the fuel map is used during cranking. I compared it to the EBL 3005 bin fuel chart, and I am well below the stock chart. Your message confirms this could be the area of concern.
I'll report back later if this helped.

I would have thought the fueling during cranking would have been independent of the low VE chart, and that is why there is a crank pulse width chart instead.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL & EBL P4 don't use a cranking injector PW setup (tables & parameters). During cranking they use the standard speed density calculation for the injector PW. For the most part all that is done is to command a rich AFR to get the engine up and running.

There is a prime PW for use during cranking. For a MPFI setup it only affects the very first injection event. For TBI the first two injection events (one for each injector).

RBob.

JoeMonte

timing? just a wild guess.

lakeffect2

RBob, yes the "crank-prime PW" is what i'm referring to. At 32*C I have it at 25ms, and runs relatively to the level at higher temps.
So where is cranking full coming from? As mentioned prior, is it from the low RPM/high Kpa portion of the lower VE table for the EBL-P4? I made changes to 400-600rom and 80-100 Kpa, all upward about 20%.

lakeffect2

Joe Monte.. Timing.. Maybe

Here's the update. I went out tonight the car tonight and loaded three bins from the past into the EBL. I figured if the car started with them in the past, they should start it now.None of them got the car started

. I noticed the voltage at about 10.2V The engine seemed like it was turning over reasonably well. I hooked up the battery charger and the voltage popped up to 13.2 and the car started on the second attempt and went into a nice idle.

So obviously with less voltage the engine is turning over slower, and of course, I can't always count on having 13 volts at all times. So does this sound like the timing needs to be compensated for a lower crank speed. battery less than six months old) base ting is set at 8*btdc

Is it an issue that the Accel 300+ ignition system does not like less than optimum voltage for starting?

MrWillys

You've got to datalog so the fuel settings can be adjusted by the EBL gods. Not datalogging is a waste of time and everything is just a guess. Harry P{otters majic wand can't fix this without a log.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What is commanded timing at those low idle speeds? Are you pulling any for startup retard?

It reallly should have 25-30 deg at idle with that cam. Any less and it will likely have hard time starting regardless of fueling

lakeffect2

Orr89.. By "commanded, I assume you mean from the main spark table. At 400-600 rpm and 90-100kpa, I have from 21-22 timing. Comparing to the EBL 3005 bin, it's within 1* of that chart. Should I be adding or subtracting more timing within the range mentioned for crankng? The EBL bins provided (3003,3005,3007) show variance from as low as 6* for stock applications and up to 22* for fire breathing dragons. Leaves me lost as to which direction to consider first, add/subtract.

If you are referring to a different chart other than the main spark table, then, then I did not catch the correct reference.

As for idle, I have the 230/236 cam set to idle at 900 rpm It usually sits in the 55-60 Kpa range when during so, at a spark advance of about 25* I'm getting a little surge, but have not touched IAC movement yet, As I'm just trying to get trying under control.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

During cranking the ECM fires the spark plugs at the distributor base setting. Has this been checked once the engine is running?

One thing I take from this is that it all worked before the engine was reassembled. If this is the case I'd be looking at the engine mechanical, not the tune.

Note that holding the go-pedal on the floor while cranking is a clear flood mode. It would be worthwhile trying this when it doesn't want to start.

RBob.

lakeffect2

Well, here's an update on progress. I loaded up four varied bins, with cuts of 2* and 4* and increases of 2* and 4* of timing in the low rpm, high Kpa fields of the main spark table. Neither cut table produced a start. The table that added 4* gave the quickest start in the past month. Will try again later with 6* added ( about 26* in total) to see if that helps crank duration till it starts up.

During open loop at 12.8 AFR produced kind of a rough idle, but hey, it started.

lakeffect2

Yup, 26* in the 400-600rpm boxes from 90-100Kpa gave me much better starting. Might need to fiddle as weather gets colder, but at least now I can get some VE l
earns done.

Thanks to all for your input. Maybe it also helps someone else on their journey as well.

JoeMonte

Good to hear you've sorted out your issue there!

lakeffect2

Thanks Joe. I actually have gotten in a few VE Learn runs as well. Looks like everything has been rich so cuts ahave been made other than keeping my starting changes intact.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

As another thought,
A high torque starter may reduce your voltage drain when cranking to help it start.
Mine did not like the standard starter and was a big improvement on cranking with the HT unit.
Opening the "Park" position on the IAC made it easier to spin also.
HTH.

lakeffect2

Nearly eight months later, after being put it away for winter storage, only to acquire fuel leaks during it's first spring fire up at the storage facility. (Being with Ferraris and Lamborghinis all winter, you'd think it would know some Italian other than M****) So all that has been replaced with stainless steel braided hose and Russell -6AN fittings. Given the fact that I hate AN fittings, I have to tell you the Russell were the easiest I've ever worked with, not only to fit over the hose, but to directly connect to the standard GM fittings at the tank and fuel filter.

Getting back to using starting fluid, I rediscovered this thread tonight, and will report this season opens with still having starting issues. I just rewrote the low RPM, high Kpa area to 27* to see if a little more advance eases startup issues, Still seem to need some starting fluid on too many occasions.

Won't be able to try that idea until it comes back from the transmission shop again.

Your thoughts and ideas are always welcome.

Dave Buchholz
Rochester NY

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check the injector power during cranking. I've seen this before when the injectors received power from an accessory feed. That feed is cold during cranking, which is why the radio goes off at that time.

What happens is that the injectors don't spray until you let off on the cranking. Then they get a pulse or two as the engine slows down. Do this enough and it may finally start.

Or, have it lite off on the starting fluid then release the key to get power back to the injectors.

RBob.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Is it getting enough fuel or too much? When you crank alot, and doesnt fire, pull a plug and check fuel

If it fires off distributor base setting as rbob mentioned try increasing base timing.

lakeffect2

delete by me.

lakeffect2

' Let me see if I follow you. Do I understand that without the older Ninth Injector, the "Crank PW" chart has no bearing on startup fuel in an 8 injector system? THat only Crank AFR has an effect? ( along with more spark advance)

On the spark advance issue I am at 26*, yet I see some of the stock base bins, 3002, 3003, 3004 have around 10-12* advance in the lowrpm/high kpa grids. Wondering If I am using 26* because my voltage has only been at 10.6 10.8 at startup cranking.

That's the other thing I discovered today (finally realized) was that my battery voltage at key on has been 10.6-10.8 V of late, during the same period of needing starting fluid. I threw the battery charger on this morning, and it started instantly, stayed at my 900 rpm idle and I did not see the afr go sky high as I approached the coolant temp crossover point from open to closed loop operation. It was been going incredibye lean 19-20 in open loop as temp raises towards closed loop. (fuel pressure constant at 46lbs during this period)


Dave Buchholz

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Since the 9th injector has never been ECM controlled the question is irrelevant. As for discussing the "Crank PW" table, there are two, need to know which one:

Crank - Prime PW
Crank - PW Multiplier

Sounds like a bad cell in the battery.

RBob.

lakeffect2

After replacing the battery and a burned through header gasket, things are better. There is now enough voltage to deliver more rpm when cranking and is has caught on the first or second time (without starting fluid) several times during the day.

I was also having very erratic O2 voltage swings that were eased by better idle area VE and start tables.Overall, vast improvements, all due to basic issues of voltage, and misrepresented VE tables.

more info at:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...lli-volts.html