Bubbajones_ya

Registration is due for my Camaro soon and I had to take an emissions test (Arizona).

The Camaro failed due to too high HC (2.82 when 1.00 is allowed) and CO (39.54 when 12.00 is allowed). I believe this means my Camaro is running rich, and I'm pretty sure the tune is what's causing this.

I have the dynamic EBL system with my Camaro, but despite help from others here before, I'm not very smart when it comes to tuning with it. Members here (such as Fast355) helped me tremendously when it came to getting my car driving well after the cam install. However, I suppose I wasn't able to fine tune it to get it running exactly how it should be. My Camaro idles and runs great, but apparently is running rich based on the emissions results.

Here is some information on my Camaro:

Manual T5 transmission
305 TBI
Elgin 1136 cam
Hooker headers/Y-pipe
RBob's EBL system

I do have the Fuel Canister, EGR system, and Catalytic Converter installed as well.






Are there any suggestions on what I should do to rectify this issue?

Can I adjust the tune to lower the fuel mixture just to get by for now until I can figure out how to tune better?
spacehereIf so, would adjusting this be done through the fuel tables or could I just input that I have larger injectors or something?

Should I run some more VE learns?

I don't have the equipment recommended to do full throttle tuning, so the best I can do with that is to use my stock O2 sensor and do VE learns, or try and do it manually (which I don't know what to look for.)


Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Can you post all of the results along with the vehicle or engine speed when the test was done.

If the ECM was in closed loop it will adjust the AFR via the NB O2 sensor. So as long as the O2 target tables haven't been significantly enriched the fueling should be OK.

But, same as the cat-con, the O2 sensor requires heat to work. Otherwise it reports lean.

As for the tune, having too much spark advance in the area the engine is being tested will increase HC.

Mechanical things can cause a failure. Bad cat-con, old oil in the engine, issues with the ignition system (plugs, cap, rotor, wires).

RBob.

Vanilla Ice

Get collector car insurance. Have them transmit data to MVD. Never worry about emissions again.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks for the responses!

RBob, I wasn't able to get a specific engine speed when the test is done. I'm not sure if other states are different, but the test here is supposed to take course over a mile. The car is put on a dyno roller with a sniffer on the exhaust, then the emissions tester "drives" the car from stop up to about 50-60 MPH on the dyno (they follow an engine speed map while doing this and shifting through gears.)

The specifics given to me where:

...................................................................... Tested .............Allowed
HYDROCARBONS (HC) IN GRAMS/MILE.................. 2.82.................1.00
CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) IN GRAMS/MILE............. 39.54...............12.00
OXIDES OF NITROGEN (NOX) IN GRAMS/MILE........ 1.20.................2.50


I will say I'm probably due for an oil change, so I'll go back and change that. I did install a heated o2 sensor a while back and my car was idling and warmed up for a long time before getting it tested (drove about 20 miles and had to wait in line at the place) so it should have been fully warmed up.

When I get a chance, I'll plug in my laptop and see if I can get specific readings on the What's Up Display to see if anything may be out of specifications.





As for getting collector car insurance, I don't believe I'm able to do that since I'm insured with USAA now and the Camaro is listed as my only vehicle. My Bronco's title is still under my Dads name as well so I can't claim that I have two vehicles either.





I was busy all day so I wasn't able to look into this as much as I hoped but tomorrow I'm going to get the oil changed, see if anything is up with the tune (by checking the What's Up Display from the EBL), and then report back!

Thanks for the advice and help so far!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

NOX is low which means that the engine is burning on the cooler side. EGR helps with this along with keeping the spark advance lower.

High CO is typically from a poor burn.

Idling for a while before being tested is bad. The exhaust, cat-con, and O2 sensor cool off. This creates higher then normal HC emissions. I thought that the cat-con also reduces CO, so it just may be that the cat-con was too cold to operate efficiently.

When you go back have the laptop in place data logging the dyno/emissions session. That information is invaluable.

Since this is an actual driving test, both AE and IAC throttle follower (TF) come into play. Need to reduce the AE to the lowest possible level without causing misfire.

Then increase the TF delays so that the IAC closes slowly. This helps (a lot) to cleanly burn off the excess fuel on a lift. Instead of that excess fuel going out the exhaust.

This excess fuel is caused by it being deposited on the intake manifold runners while the throttle is open. Then on a lift the high vacuum evaporates the fuel and sends it on to the chamber.

With the open IAC (TF) it takes a little longer to evaporate the fuel and adds additional air to burn it more cleanly.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Elgin 1136 - 288/284 (Adv) @ 110 LSA = 66º Overlap

Bubbajones_ya

RBob, thanks for all the helpful advice! I'm changing my oil now and am going to run down to the emissions place to retest with my computer hooked up and the data-logging running. I don't think they'll have a problem with me doing that (but who knows these places can be weird) so I should be able to get good results then.


When it comes to reducing the AE and increasing TF delays, I'm very unversed in what means what (when looking at TunerPro).

There are 6 AE adjustments in the tables list:

AE - MAP Filter
AE - MAP PW
AE - TPS Filter
AE - TPS PW
AE - CTS Multipler %
AE - RPM Multiplier %

and 4 TF adjustments in the tables list:

IAC - TF Decay Filters
IAC - TF Decay Delay
IAC - TF Decay MPH Breakpoints
IAC - TF Gain



I'm assuming the AE - MAP Filter/PW and AE - TPS Filter/PW are the more important parameters to change here. I'm guessing the filter for the MAP sensor and TPS is more of a secondary functino to the PW, so adjusting the PW tables lower is what I may be looking into here?

As for the TF, do I just adjust the IAC - Decay Delay table, or should I be increasing the filters and MPH breakpoints as well?




I understand without my datalog, it will be hard to recommend the specific course of action but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the parameters I need to adjust so I can get a better idea of what's going on with the tune!

Thank you again for the advice! I'll post the datalog up later today when I come back from the emissions testing place!

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately I'm very unskilled with tuning/tuning terminology so I'm not quite sure what to adjust based on that degree overlap and other specs.

I haven't been working at the tuning aspect much at all, so I need to study up more and understand how each system works together (and what parameters affect what in TunerPro.) I'm about to head out now to get another emissions test done so I can get some good datalogging numbers!

Bubbajones_ya

Well just before heading out I noticed I have an engine code, code 43 (which I think I had when I went to take the test in the first place). The What's up Display showed the spark rapidly (like impossibly fast) increase indefinitely so I may want to figure this out before I head back to emissions.

I'm hoping it's something simple like the connection to the knock sensor or something, but I'll try and look into it. This probably could affect fueling if the computer is trying to compensate for excessive knock I'm guessing.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's not so much in the tune, but in the camshaft's characteristics. A higher overlap percentage will affect emission testing because of the excess fuel that is being pushed through the exhaust valve when the valves overlap, and this will be picked up by the computer conducting the test. There is really no way around it, because even though you have the correct air/fuel during combustion, the overlap is still drawing in raw unused fuel into the exhaust. For emissions we usually target an LSA of around 112 or higher...

Post up a bin and datalog, it's impossible to help without visually seeing what is going on.

Bubbajones_ya

Well I didn't get a chance to go to the emissions place today, and I didn't get a chance to do a good datalog.

I did datalog idling in the driveway, and hitting the throttle a few times though so I'll post that up in the meantime. I believe tomorrow I'll be able to get a datalog of actual driving which I assume will be more helpful.

The datalog is in the .dat file for viewing in the EBL What's up Display. I'm not sure if there is a different file format I should post as or not, but that's how I've datalogged before.
The .bin is the current file I've been using since April 27th of this year.



You can see my car does a little bit of rpm searching at idle, especially when cold, but I don't think that has a big play on the current issue.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your Initial SA is at 12*, do you need that much at cranking? If so, make sure your timing by hand is also set at 12* BTDC with the EST disconnected. Your Idle SA is set to 25*, you might want to lower that a tad, maybe down to 20-22*. Your IAC is closed during the datalog (0 steps), this means your fast idle screw is opening the throttle blades too much, this is confirmed through your commanded RPM at idle which is 700-RPM, but your averaging 800-RPM. Back off of the throttle screw until you see the IAC steps reading closer to 25 steps at idle, you can do this with the engine running while you monitor the WUD screen...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Fix your RPM command during Park and Drive despite being a manual, you will want 1200.00 from -40 to 8, 1000.00 from 32 to 44, then 700.00 all the way down after that, do this on both the Park and Drive IAC - Idle Speed tables, again, despite being a manual transmission.

The area that I highlighted/shaded in the SA Main Table up top, I would recommend setting it to 22.15 SA, then set your Idle SA on the bottom right from 24.96 to 23.00. I would also recommend setting the Initial SA of 11.95 down to 8.00, then set your balancer the same with the EST disconnected using a timing light. After these changes, then you can let the engine idle and fix the IAC Step issue by backing off of the throttle screw, and letting the IAC breath during idle embellishing a solid 25 steps, and steady 700-RPM when warmed up...

Bubbajones_ya

Thank you so much for looking at this and helping me out! I'll definitely change those values, then change my base timing with my timing light and back off that throttle screw to fix that step issue.

If I don't get around to doing that tonight, I'll be able to do it after work tomorrow.



I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not either, but I took my car off the jack and drove it into town to get a datalog while running. I live off a highway so it's mainly highway driving, but if there is some useful info in this, I figured it wouldn't hurt to post it.

Once I edit the .bin file with your suggestions, change the timing, and set the steps, I'll post another datalog from there!


As a side note, I'm thinking either my Spark Module (The ESC thing by the brake booster) or knock sensor may be what's causing my code 43 as well (which may be affecting my emissions readings). I changed the spark plug pigtail out and made sure it's not touching the exhaust yet it didn't help with the code. I might try a junkyard for a different module/knock sensor.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Remember that there is no VE Learning when there is a code that has been tripped, so until the Code 43 is resolved and removed, there is really no VE Learning or tuning per se. Try not to drive it often until the code is cleared and changes are made. The recommendations I made above is just from engine experience and will help you smooth out your idle during both cold to warm transition, as well as when fully warmed up. Once the changes are made, and code is cleared, then the VE Learning can begin. You can always try testing the current Knock Sensor to see if it is the culprit, which is very easy to do...

jmd

iTrader: (4)

The state can fax you a set of graphs showing grams/mile eq. reading at speeds for HC, NOx, CO, and CO2.
Probably call one of these numbers here: http://legacy.azdeq.gov/environ/air/vei/

A history with "basics" can be pulled here:
http://65.82.88.75/myazcar/histinq.exe/muinput

You will be able to pass with that combo. Hang in there.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the most part lower the AE PW tables:

AE - MAP PW
AE - TPS PW

Increasing the filter values will speed up the IAC decay, need to lower the TF Decay Filters table to slow it down. The TF Decay MPH Breakpoints table defines which filter is used based on the vehicle speed.

The TF Decay Delay values are only used if the TF reaches the maximum TF steps allowed value. In this case the TF decay is delayed before the steps are decayed out.

Note that while code 43 is active a set amount of spark advance is removed. Most BINs are set to 4* of constant retard.

RBob.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks for the help again everyone.

I finally fixed my code 43. A damn pack-rat chewed a wire from the ESC on the harness behind the distributor inbetween the engine/transmission.

For a temporary fix, I took blue crimp connectors and connected the wires together with an extension wire because I couldn't reach in there well enough to do anything else.

Now that the code is off, I'm going to try and adjust my steps count and get emissions tested again tomorrow after work.


Apart from that, I found a 5.7 block in the junkyard this weekend so I decided to snag that. It was only 220 for the entire assembled motor. It was from a 98 suburban so it should have vortec heads if they weren't changed out, but I'm not sure if I'm going to use those yet or not... I know I'd need a whole new intake and probably have the heads looked at and worked over and I don't quite have the funds for that. I might just slap on my 305 TBI heads/intake on the 350 for now and see how that works. I had my 305 heads worked over with larger valves and the intake runners and exhaust runners gasket matched about 6 months ago so they are still pretty newly rebuilt.

Who knows. I still haven't decided which route I want to go. I really want to throw that 350 in there within the month, but maybe it's best if I wait another few months to get funds to put vortec heads on...



Edit: As for the idle steps, I can't seem to get them to change when adjusting the screw with the engine warmed up. If I turned it clockwise, eventually the steps moved up to about 4, but the engine wouldn't back out of a high idle with it turned that much. If I went counter-clockwise, the engine started surging a bit. The steps didn't seem to change though unless I hit the throttle. I adjusted the screw pretty heavily in both directions as well so I must be doing something wrong. I then tried putting it back where it may have been. The rpms seem to fall somewhat slowly though where I have it now so I may have not put it back where it originally was. I suppose if I can't figure it out, I'll just set it back were the engine isn't idling as high or surging as much.

Edit 2: I messed a tiny bit more with it and the idling seems good and the rpms seem to drop normally as well. I still couldn't get the steps to increase at all, they stay at 0 during idle so that may be something I have to look into more. However, with the code 43 gone and the other adjustments, I'm hoping I may pass emissions now. I'll make sure to take a datalog when I go.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Good possibility that there is a vacuum leak. The TBI base gasket is a common problem, it dries out and starts to leak. Sometimes they will whistle loudly.

Note that the ECM is constantly reading the TPS voltage and saving the 'least seen' voltage since start up. The ECM uses this as the 0% TPS setting. So as the idle stop screw is turned out (counter clockwise), the ECM is saving this lower and lower value as the 0% baseline.

When the idle stop screw is turned in this increases the TPS voltage. It doesn't take much for the ECM to think that the go-pedal is being pushed and drops out of idle mode. The idle will go up but the ECM won't step the IAC out to lower the RPM.

Need to key-off for 10 seconds or so then restart the engine to get the new 0% TPS baseline.

RBob.

cosmick

Doesn't matter, what matters is the 0.050" numbers.
I've driven the E1136 in a mild 350, it pulled over 20" of idle vacuum. I've driven a Comp XR276/282 in a similar 350, nothing would get it up to 15" of idle vacuum. That's because the E1136 is a 210/215 at 0.050", the XR276HR10 is a 224/230, also on a 110.
I have a Lunati 280/290-112 HF in my '86 LG4 right now, it was over 16" the first time I ran it, before fine-tuning. at 0.050" it's a 214/224.
So ignore the overlap at advertised duration, anything with no overlap at 0.050" will pass emissions, it holds true for mid-'70s, and for current LSx, and everything in between.
Edit: Go look at the Comp Cams HF SBC cams with EO #s, then go read the executive order making them legal. Note the stipulation that these cams must work with no adjustment to idle speed or idle mixture. That's a big clue. The HE268 has an EO, and just 2* of non-overlap at 0.050"
Look at the Ford Racing E303 cam for '85-'95 Mustangs. It has exactly zero overlap at 0.050", and is 50-state legal. I could go on, but point made.

cosmick

LSA doesn't directly control overlap, it's more a function of duration.
A 224/224-112 or a 220/228-112 has the exact same overlap as a 220/220-110 or a 216/224-110.

Bubbajones_ya

So I finally had a chance to go get the emissions test done again.

It ended up failing again, but I made sure to datalog the dyno rolls during the process. They normally only do one run, but on the first run, the dyno computer reset so they had to redo it. The second run was done fully. However, it made them do another 1/2 run as well. I'm just listing that because the datalog was recording for all 3 runs. I also included my .bin file that I currently have installed.


With the small adjustments I did with the tune and fixing the code 43 (no codes are present now), the HC and CO did go down (the CO went down a bunch but not enough). The NOX went up a little bit, but it was still in the passing range.

First Test
...................................................................... Tested .............Allowed
HYDROCARBONS (HC) IN GRAMS/MILE.................. 2.82.................1.00
CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) IN GRAMS/MILE............. 39.54...............12.00
OXIDES OF NITROGEN (NOX) IN GRAMS/MILE........ 1.20.................2.50

Second Test
...................................................................... Tested .............Allowed
HYDROCARBONS (HC) IN GRAMS/MILE.................. 2.53.................1.00
CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) IN GRAMS/MILE............. 12.60...............12.00
OXIDES OF NITROGEN (NOX) IN GRAMS/MILE........ 1.83.................2.50




I will try and see if I have a vacuum leak as well. I did replace the throttle body gasket a while back, but its possible I may have torn it or that it has dried out since I installed the cam/intake about a year ago. I have a throttle body space installed as well, so I have two gaskets to check in that area (the throttle body spacer helps align the way I have the fuel lines set up.)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is wrong, the calculation to measure the amount of overlap coincides with either the advertised, and/or the numbers at 0.050", both can be used to calculate overlap and result with the same conclusion. Simply said, whatever calculation you use at 0.50" can be used in a different calculation using the advertised with the same results...

This is wrong, LSA directly changes overlap because the LSA alters the four valve timing points which are ground into the camshaft and are unchangeable; (IO, IC, EO, EC), early IO increases overlap, later IO decreases overlap, early EC decreases overlap, later EC increases overlap...

If you went with the changes that I suggested that is a good start, then next steps are stable idle then VE Learning. Like RBob pointed out you might have a vacuum leak. If the IAC steps won't increase when backing off of the fast idle screw (closed throttle) then the engine is getting a supplemental amount of air elsewhere other than the IAC, and chances are you have a vacuum leak somewhere. Once the idle is stable and steps are averaging 25 steps or slightly higher, do some VE Learns then get it tested again. Remember what I pointed out above though, overlap affects emissions, and although you're getting close to where you need to be, it still might be very close, so don't get discouraged thinking it's your tuning...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'm surprised that the SES/CEL light didn't fail the car immediately on the first try. But with the code 43 now fixed there is more spark advance, which explains the large reduction in CO and slight increase in NOX. Which cylinder heads are on this engine?

I noted your threads in the TBI board. Are you planning one continuing with this setup and getting it through emissions? There are some changes that can be done to help clean it up.

One thing I noted in the data log is that the driver is all over the throttle. Open, closed, more open, now lift. I would imagine a passenger in the car would be complaining. There is barely a period of time of steady throttle.

RBob.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I have seen the SES ignored here in AZ too.

Most of the humans that do the drive-course test are reasonable. There are some kneejerkers who probably go through u-joints and brakes on heir own vehicles.

Bubbajones_ya

Here in AZ, as long as your car is prior OBDII, they don't pay attention if there is a SES light on, they just care about the sniffer test and maybe some small visual stuff.

The cylinder heads I have on this motor now are the standard 305 Swirl Ports (I think 187s or something?) I had them fully rebuilt and a nice valve job/gasket matching and stuff (yeah I probably spent a little bit too much on those heads), but they are the stock heads.

I WOULD like to get my car through emissions with my current setup, but I'm definitely going to be putting that 350 in as soon as I can. I'm not sure how difficult it will be in changing my current tune to fit the 350 either since I'm not very competent with all the tuning parameters (all these tables overwhelm me, the AE, VE, spark, etc etc! It's a lot to pick up at once! You're VE learns sure help me a lot!) My parents purchased a house up north that they'll be retiring in outside of the emissions testing zones in AZ. I'm going to be keeping my Camaro there when I go on active duty for the Air Force, so I won't be required to have it pass emissions (though I'd still like to know that it could.) However, it will probably be about a month or so before I get around to actually swapping in the 350, and I haven't re registered my car yet since I'm currently still down in the Phoenix area, and I can't do that until is passes emissions.

I know that I'll have to get a carb intake for the vortec heads (to stay on the cheap side) on the 350 block I picked up, so I'll be without an EGR valve. I don't believe Arizona checks to see if that valve is in place, but I don't know if it would be possible to pass the sniffer test without it.



As for the driver all over the throttle, it was a pretty jerky ride.... the last driver was over the throttle about as much as well. They are following a graph for vehicle speed so the throttle isn't constant, but it did seem a little excessive on the unsteady throttle.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Strange about the SES, but it is what it is.

The reason I asked about the heads is due to the amount of spark advance being used. I see very little knock in the log and it appears during shifts and throttle stabs. Something is wrong, there is no way that much SA can be run on those heads without excessive pinging or a very rough running engine. An example is at 2K RPM, 70 KPa MAP, stock BIN is 17* BTDC, while your BIN is running nearly twice that at 30* BTDC.

Another data point is 1462 RPM, 88 KPa MAP, stock BIN is 5*, while your BIN is at 15*.

Need to check that the damper & TDC #1 match up. Then verify the distributor base timing at 8.1* BTDC (what is in the BIN) with the EST/BYPASS connector open. Then with the ECM controlling the timing that the mark on the damper moves toward the passenger side of the car (further advanced from base).

I will add here that some additional advance is required due to the cam. And the test driver never got over 2K RPM, but it doesn't add up.

It takes a while to pickup on it all, but it is worth it. Once the SA is squared away further VE learns will help. The BLM still goes too far, although, with the CCP active that will affect it. So likely the log I'm looking at isn't a good view of the fueling.

Yea, I could see getting a ticket when driving that way on the street.

RBob.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks RBob as always for the helpful advice! Posts I've read from you and your responses to me since I've come to this site sure have helped out ever since I've gotten my Camaro a couple years ago!

For those heads, I did have larger intake and exhaust valves put in, but I don't know if that would make any difference for their ability to have a higher SA or not.

For checking TDC at #1, should I pull the #1 plug and crank the engine by hand until I feel a gush of air? Then there, I should see if my damper is 0 correct?

If that matches up, I just pull the spout plug and make sure the damper is reading 8.1 with my timing light since my BIN file is set to that correct?



As for learning about the tuning. I did read over some information on your site when I first purchased the EBL. I intend on going over that information again (especially since I think I understand it a little better now, it should stick with me more.) Are there any other good, somewhat easy-to-follow guides you recommend for helping me learn?

I've looked over parts of the "Tuning with EBL' thread a few times, but the information there is somewhat jumbled up for me and the thread is huge! Also, since I am not familiar with many of the acroynms and functions, I get lost very quickly. I'll admit, I should probably suck it up and try and look over it some more though.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You're welcome.

The larger valves won't make a difference. However, if the ramp under the intake valve (in the bowl) was removed, that will make a difference. They will no longer be a swirl port head and will require additional spark advance.

This can get close enough to know if the correct timing tab and damper are used. But won't get close enough to TDC to verify the actual timing is better then a few degrees. For that need to use a piston stop.

For the 'close enough to check tab & damper' method. Remove #1 plug, get flashlight. Observe the piston top while hand rotating the engine (can grab the belt to rotate it). If it starts to hiss, pause until it stops then continue.

Once the piston is at the top juggle the engine back & forth until the piston is best located at TDC. Can now check the timing marks are close to 0 on the damper & tab.

Yes. But make note if the base timing is lower then 8.1*, as that will lower the actual SA. For example, if the base is currently at 0*, setting it to 8.1* will add that much timing across the board.

Not really, there are many parts to EFI that aren't easily covered in one location. Up in the sticky Tuning Guide Book there is a lot of threads that have good info in them.

http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Acronyms.php

RBob.