deadtemple

I have a 92 firebird conv. 5.0 This was stolen from me a few weeks ago. My father left the key under the seat. I have the car back, but no key. I didnt know about the vats when I started to hot wire hte firebird. I destroyed the steering column and had to install another. This column came from a 92 z28. It also came with the vats/passkey for the ign and key. I can not find the vats mudule in my car.
I thought I could bypass the vats so I bought a bypass module. The onl things it only bypasses the fuel relay. I was going to jump the starter relay, only I cant find that either. I thought it was under the drivers kick panel, but I dont know what it looks like.

SO I went out and got some resitors to bypass the system. I have tried 8 of the 15 ohmages and no start. I really would like to just install the new vats module. Does anyone know where it would be. Another thing is there is a audiovox module by the fuse panel thta waas used for remote locks. I dodnt know, never had a key remote when I got the car.

Any help will be appreciated. I am at my wits end, and being in Florida it is just to hot to play around in the car with out any results. Thanks

Azrael91966669

call the dealer give them your vin and proof of ownership 30 dollars later you have a brand new ingintion key add 2 bucks more you have a door key brand new

then vats isnt a problem anymore

deadtemple

I called the pontiac dealer and they said without the old key they have no way of telling witch chip it needs. I even called Pontiac in Michigan and they have no clue. If I can get no help I will either tear out the dash and find the module or pay some more money and get the service manual for the car. They said the car was to old they dont have that info anymore.

Curious though, If I changed steering columns, how would a key from the last steering column work. I thought they have different ohm pellets in the ignition?

Azrael91966669

there is a dealer website that all a parts guy has to do is enter the vin from your car had you not attempted to hot wire you would have no problems

these cars 89+ connot be hot wired now you need the key from the z28 and need that cars vats unit but for that

you also need the title from that z28 to prove owner ship or you will get no help from a dealer say you needed a key made

all you have done is cause yourself much more problems

and no they do not need the key to have a copy made

deadtemple

When I bought the steering column, I got the vats module and the key for it. I just can not find the vats module in my firebird. I have the column in and the key turns but the security light stays on and nothing happens when you turn the key. I thought I heard the Vats is on the firewall behind the defroster. If that is true, then I would have to drop the entire dash to get at it and cahnge the module. I just need to know for sure so I dont do a whole lot of work for nothing. Thanks for the replies

Azrael91966669

it is up under the dash
they made it hard to get to for a reason
had it been easy to access a thef would just been able to rip it out and jumper the wires


you have to remove the gadge cluster then remove the dash to gain access to the modual

deadtemple

i tried following the ohm wires coming out f the column (purple/white, black/white), but they go into a cluster of wires aove the fuse panel and i cant get to them to follow. Is it somewhere around the ecm on the passenger side, because I found a black box by the ecm, but the connectores are not the same. The one in my car plugs around a mother board, I dont think that is the vats. I guess i will have to wait until cool out sied to go drop the entire dash down and check if it is on the firewall like another thread suggested it was.
I already spent some bucks on this and I am limited on funds because when the car was stolen I bought a Kia sephia to get my father around and he blew the head gasket and fried the coils. so i am waiting to get the head back from the shop to get that car running. He is renting a car right now, i was just going to get the bird running to save on rental til i get the kia fixed then take my bird back and restore it. Install some rollbars and overhaul the engine and redo the interior as well as put a new front clip and rear clip and change the ground effects, being it was damaged when it was stolen. Damn gang bangers! they Blew off the rear tires, so I dont want to spend to much getting it started, for i do not know if she needs a lot of engine work or not. I hope she just needs a tune up , but I have to start her first.

pontiacmo89

first off sorry to hear your car was stolen!!
i went through the vats crap about two weeks ago, it sucks
i think that your best bet is to leave the stock vats module alone, if all you did is switch the ignition switch out[new colum from the camaro] then all you have to do is cut the two wires going to the ign switch, then attach the resistors one at a time intil you get the right one [you will know cus it will start]. make sure you put your wires back the way they came stock before you started rigin it up!![very important]. once you get the right resistor you have 2 ways to go about it,
1. solder the resistor in, or attach it however you see fit
2. take the key for the ignition to a locksmith, and tell them to cut the new key with the pellet number that works.[you will need to know the pellet number 1-15 that it is because they don't go buy the resistor value they go buy the pellet number] reattach the wires going to the ignition, and wall ah good as new.
i would use step #2 cus your vats would work again. it has already been taken once hate to see it happen again. hope this helps
p.s. when you get her runnin, don't leave the key in it.

deadtemple

So, the two wires that go to the Vats is the ign. wires you are talking about. And just keep trying the 15 ohm values that I have till it starts, right? Cause i tried 8 of them btu they did not work of course they are not set correct meaning for 402 ohms i have a resistor calued at 390. whitch by my understanding it should still work because there is a variance allowed. I guess i just have to go buy a multimeter to make sure the resistors i got are correct..

Once i get the right value I planned on putting a cut of swirch in it so It cant be stolen again. It is tedious, but i guess if i have to I HAVE TO. Thanks

pontiacmo89

the wires i'm talking about are the 2 wires coming out of the ign tumbler[where the key goes]. most of the time they go into a orange sleev, through the colum, after the colum they should go into a conector. you have to splice cut the wires between the tumbler and that conector to put the resisters in.[ DON'T CUT THEM BEHIND THAT CONECTOR!!].
also, once you try a resistor, if it don't work shut the ign off and wait 5min before you try the next. if you try to many to quickly i heard the ecm will lock and none of the resistors will work for an hour.[don't know if this is true or not, but i didn't chance it]
hope this helps

Grizzlee

Here is a dumb question (regarding VATS) if you have the ability to burn chips can't you just disable VATS in the chip??

That is assuming you don't want VATS anymore? Then you could install an aftermaket alarm system??

pontiacmo89

i have heard you can burn a chip to delete vats. i don't know if it can be done or not. sounds $$$ if you ask me

deadtemple

Why not behind the connector towards the car?

i just got a multimeter and made 15 different resitors close to the 15 values i have. I think i screwed it up. I set the multi meter to 2000 and I was getting negative readings when hooked them to the car. I then set the muti meter to 2000K and tried a value on that setting. The security light went of for a minute or two unil i went to test the wires(I am not sure when it came back on i was not paying atttention) But this is progress. Now i am going to make the values of resistors using 2000K setting.

Grizzlee

I don't know if this will help or work (link that is)

GM VATS Pellet Inserted Chip

deadtemple

Well I cut he two white wires and tried hooking up different resistors in 15 ohmages I have ,and nothing happened. I was wondering if I was supposed to just keep the wires intacted and splce the resitor into the white wires. I am at a loss. i am seriously thinking about taking the ECM in to the dealer and have them delete the VATS from it.

When I made the resistors up with the multimeter the values were correct. But when I hooked them up and tested the values turned negative. This confused me. I might have used the multimeter wrong. I heard they sell a Vats pack that alraedy have 15 resistors with the values needed.

i also looked for the Vats module to swap it out and could not find it. I found something with similar wires on the passenger side under dash. Most of the wires are the same color, but there are like 5 extra wires on mine than the one from the z28 so the connectors are different. I was thinking of splicing the colored wires together to see if sh will start. Plus the module i found is silver and metal, while the new one is black and plastic. I might have the wrong thing. Any suggestions?

jr. gearhead

the meter reading is only accurate for resistors tested out of the car (out of circuit). the negative readings can come from the fact that there is a little power applied to those wires so the module can read the chip

deadtemple

Thanks Jr. I didnt know what was going on. I do beleive I screwed it up. i dont think i waited 5 full minutes before trying a different value.
i have the ecm out of the car and I am taking it to the dealer with my title to see what they can do for me. i dont want to screw it up beyond repair. or atleast beyond my budget.

Mickey_Moose

You can't simply jumper out the VATS and make it work - only the relay.

The dealership (at least a good one) should have a test module that they can hook up to your system to determine the value of resistor needed.

The VATs module is under the dash between the steering column and center console area.

There are 15 different values for each resistor, you can get a pot and set it to each value and connect it up to the wires going to key (make sure you connect it up the correct end). If it does not start, remove pot and adjust to next value, wait 15 minutes and try again. Once you know the value you can simply tell GM which one to use. Sorry I don't have a list of the value handy, but they can be found on the net.

The ECM can be programmed to remove the VATS check, doubtful that the dealer can do this for you. You will have to seek out the people that do custom tuning for these cars.

Tim

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Instead of playing around with the wiring and really messing things up. Goto Moates.net buy a moates adapter and eprom then download the appropriate Bin file from that site. Then download C.A.T.S. (Computer Automotive Tuning Software) find someone with a pocket programmer or buy one for around $45.00 and goto ECM Switch Table and remove the VATS Diagnostic code buy unchecking the box and reburn the chip eprom. This can save you tons of time playing around with a vats system and a wiring nightmare.

deadtemple

I thank everyone for their help. i am not the most savvy tech in the world. I usually learn by doing.
Well i dropped the fuse panel and found the starter relay wrapped in tape around all the wireing. she tries to start, now all I have to do is find the fuel enabler wire on the ecm and hook up my bypass to get her started and fix her up. I have tore out almost the whole dash, that i have to reinstall now. Might as well spruce the beast up while i do that. All that is hanging me up is the feul wire. I am going to search around for schematics, because the diagram i have...the wire colors and letters dont match up. thanks

83z28camaro

If you can find the c207 connector by the computer. It is the connector between the engine and dash harnesses. The fuel enable wire is the dark blue wire. Mike

deadtemple

I hooked a toggle switch up to enable the starter. The Blue wire on B6 of the ECM is the Vats signal coming into the ECM by the diagram I have for the ECM #1228746. The module I got from Baker Electronix to bypass the fuel enabler in the ECM does not let her start.

I am think about cutting the two wires for the feul pump in the ECM (Feul pump relay drive A1 and Feul pump signal B2) and installing a toggle switch to apply power to the fuel pump to get her running again. Do you think this will do the trick?

i have found some useful links to help out in dealing with vats problems, I will post them when I get them together.

deadtemple

I have a question, again...ha,ha. This ecm on my firebird, does ithe Vats shut off the injectors to the throttle body or the fuel pump? Cause if that is the case my last post would not work. If it does shut off the injectors, how do I enable them to run without installing a new chip in the Ecm to bypass vats?

There should be a way. I have a will, so there must be a way!

83z28camaro

did you disconnect the dark blue wire from the vats module. The VATS system disables the injector so powering the fuel pump won't work. What ecm number do you have. I may be able to burn you a chip if I have one that will work in your car. pm me if you would like a chip burnt.

Mickey_Moose

Incorrect.

The VATS system enables the injector pulse. Disconnecting it does not do anything except prevent the car from running.

The ECM is waiting for the signal from the VATS to enable the injector pulse - there is NO way around this without reprogramming the ECM or by installing a VATS bypass module that you can buy and build yourself.

To build your own, see:
PASSkey II bypass box
or:
Passkey bypass - FieroAddiction.com

If you buy/build your own VATS signal generator, make sure you get the right one. PASSKEY 1 and PASSKEY 2 systems use a slightly different signal (both are basically a square wave signal, but the frequency is different).

83z28camaro

He said he used a bypass module and I was thinking if the wire was still connected to the factory module it would affect the bypass modules signal. Kinda like when the hazard lights are on in some cars and you step on the brake they stop flashing. Mike

deadtemple

I cut the dark blue wire coming into the ecm. On the ECM diagram for the car it is labeled VATS, B6. I hooked up the bypass module I bought and this did not enable the injectors. i do need to have a chip burned to delete the vats from the ECM, then the injectores will fire accordingly. One thing I was wondering.
When i hooked up the bypass midule, I stll have the wires cut coming out of the column going to the Vats. That shouldnt have anything to do with it not firing the injectors. After i install a head on my other car tommorrow i will hook up the two wires and see it has anything to do. Thanks for the help.

The Bird is still not running so feel free to post any useful info. Thanks again.

83z28camaro

If you pm me the 4 digit letter code off of your ecm or prom and your mailing address I will send you a new chip to disable VATS. Mike

deadtemple

I just wanted to thank everyone her for their help, especially 83z28camaro!

The bird is running, and running well. She needs some tires and a new set of brakes, but for being ran into the ground by the theives, it is not that bad.

I should have her out and about in a week. Thanks all!

Psycho_91Camaro

83z28camaro, is the solution to all your VATS problems.

Well actually im speaking to early...my car still isn't running because of VATS, Will see on tuesday.

meefy

iTrader: (3)

So, just to set me straight. If I have a matching pellet key and pass-key box it will send the right signal to the ECM and let the car start? The way I read this thread is that the ECM doesn't care what pellet key you have as long as it jives with the pass-key module. If the pass-key module likes the pellet key it will tell the ECM to fire the injectors. Right? Oh and on a side note my 89 bird has the pass-key(VATS) module mounted on the defroster duct work just right off center of the dash. Real easy to get to if you have the dash out of the car!

Psycho_91Camaro

Your vats module will need to read the correct resistence value. It does matter which key you use, GM made 15 Different keys for our VATS F-BODY's. This means there are 15 different reistence values and each have a variance. The ECM understands the signal from VATS, which is based on the CORRECT resistence value, if this is not true your car will not start. This is why it is so crucial that you have the key with the correct resistence in the pellet, when your VATS system is active.

meefy

iTrader: (3)

But the pass-key module is what determines if the key is correct or not. Not the ECM. That is the way I understand it. Am I correct? As long as the resistance in the pellet (1-15 ) matches what the pass-key(VATS) module is looking for, all is good. Basically what I'm trying to confirm is that the ECM isn't tied directly to the pellet key. The ECM is just looking for the pass-key module to say "yea, the right pellet key is being used" Am I correct??

deadtemple

yes you are correct. It is the Vats module that tells the ecm ok or not ok.
If the Vats module sees the right resistance it will tell the ecm to enable the fuel to be injected. But there is a starter relay that is also tied into the key resistance that does not have anything to do with the Vats module. That is were Gm gets ya. Even if you get the ecm to fire the injectors, without the right resistance, (Whitch is next to impossible, if not impossible) you will still need to enable power to the starter. hope this helps

meefy

iTrader: (3)

So how does the starter relay know what resistance is right? Does it receive a signal from something? I've never heard of someone having to change a starter relay if they change out their pellet key?

deadtemple

Well I think the two wires that send the resistance from the pellet( orange sleeve, two white wires) go to somewhere?! Maybe Starter relay. I tried to follow the wires but couldnt. Then it runs in a loop with the Vats, but the starter relay comes first in the loop, then the Vats, then the ECM.

I wish I could be more specific and helpful sorry.

83z28camaro

The VATS module reads the keys resistance value and determines if it is correct. If the value is correct it will ground the starter relay and send the signal to the ecm. If the value is incorrect it will not ground the relay resulting in no crank and not send the signal to the ecm resulting in no fuel. Unless you have an '89 with a 2.8L which only uses the starter relay. Mike

meefy

iTrader: (3)

Oh crap! I have a 89 v-6 bird that I'm transforming into a formula. Is the pass-key module interchangeable with a v-8 box? I'm using all the v-8 wiring out of a donor car but the donor car (89 formula) didn't have a functional VATS system. I do have the good VATS box and matching key from the v-6 bird, will it work with the v-8 ECM?

Psycho_91Camaro

there is 1 way of bypassing the starter relay.

83z28camaro

They are the same module. The wire is even in the dash harness going to the ecm but ends at the c207 connector. I guess G.M. didn't feel like changing the code in the ecm to use VATS. But they changed ecms in 90 and started using it. Mike

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Unless you absolutely want vats. Why don't you burn a new chip using C.A.T.S. and disable the vats in the ecm. Makes life alot easier. I am using a donor car that had vats. I reburned a chip from the info on moates.net and now I don't have to worry about it any more. This is just an suggestion though

meefy

iTrader: (3)

Thx for the info Mike! As long as I have all the parts needed to keep a functioning VATS system, I would like to keep it in use. It is one more device to help deter someone from stealing my pride and joy. On a side note, is there any way to determine which pellet you need by looking at the VATS box? Is there something in the numbers on the box or a certain color code on one of the resistors that will tell me which pellet would work with a pass-key module?

91transamGTA

so this would be the same thing as tricking the main computer if you dont have the stock stearing colum and the key??

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Not really tricking the ecm at all. There is a flag constant in there that has a check mark next to it. If you download the Bin for the ECM and look at ECM constants it will have you put a check mark in the box if you want vats.. Very easy and no messes. When I was in Providence R.I. a few years back, I parked next to a nice looking camaro and was watching as the car get loaded up onto a flat bed truck as it's siren was going off. The person that was standing next to me told me he lost his keys and remote so he was having it hauled to his house to work on it.

About 2 hours later after doing some shopping my car had several police cars parked around it and the real owner of the car was there. I learned that day that it doesn't matter what kind of theft protection someone has, It only helps keep an honest person honest. I did waste a few hours talking to the police about this incident and don't know if the car was ever recovered.

83z28camaro

No there is no way of telling from looking at the module. The modules come new unprogrammed and the first time the car is started it learns the value. GM dealers have a VATS interagator that is used for checking the code of the key and can be used to check what key the module will need. But the module has to be installed in a properly working car. It just trys the 15 different values one after the other with a four minute timer between trys. Mike

91transamGTA

How would I go about doing this? What would I need to buy to trick the main computer? I have a 91 trans am with a 305, but it was swithed to carborated and Im trying to switch it back to tune port. But, they also switched the stearing colum and the starter is hooked up to a button... I cant get it to work from the key. I dont clue what to do to fix it. thanks for the help in advance

meefy

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like the quickest way to remedy your problem would be to purchase a matched pellet key and Pass-key module and then simply replace your components. This is assuming that your current steering column is the Pass-key style column and that all of your wiring for the vats system is intact.

M

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure if that would be any quicker or cheaper doing that way or not. I know the Vats keys alone can run anywhere upto $35 approx.. Not to mention what the module could run plus your time in labor to swap it out.

Goto <u>DIY Fuel-Injection Tools:</u><br>Created by an EFI enthusiast for EFI enthusiasts like you! : Moates.Net for the parts

for your ecm to Chip adapter Look Here

GM Adapters : Moates.Net

For the ECM chip look Here

Chips and Sockets : Moates.Net

You will probably need the 27sf512 chip.

You can download the exact bin from File Manager - Browsing directory /

For the Chip Burner Software.. Goto

Flash & Burn Program for BURN1 - : Moates.Net

The next problem is you will have to find someone with a chip burner or buy one. I have been doing this for a little while. Takes just a few minutes and is easy to do.

The one on moates.net costs for the cheapy around $85. The Autoprom which is what I have is around $325. I have a friend that uses the procket programmer with great success.

Pocket Programmer

The final item you will need is the C.A.T.S. software which can be found @

http://www.tunercat.com/

Sounds like alot of areas to go. I can help with most of these.

If you have someone with the chip programmer and Cats or RT Tuner this can be done in about 5 minutes.

N.J.-SLICK-1

WHY IS CUTTING BEHIND THE CONNECTOR A PROBLEM??? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS??? IT WAS ASKED EARLIER BUT NEVER ADDRESSED! THANKS.
p.s. I know it's old, but I'm going through this starting problem and did a search on the subjects at hand! Also before it's asked I've changed the ignition control module and coil already and then realized it could be the VATS sys.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Yes that can be done either using C.A.T.S. or RT-Tuner. You need the Moates Adapter, a 29c256 chip all which can be bought on www.moates.net.

Burning the chip is the easiest way. Takes 7 seconds to burn the chip . around 10 minutes to remove the ECM install the moates adapter, and put the chip in. Screwing around with pellet resistors trying to figure out which one will work is not the easiest way as you have to pull wiring apart and it takes alot of work.

I have burned my own ecm proms and it very easy to do. Read DYI PROM thread and see for your self. If you don't have a prom burner it can cost you around $70 unless you ask someone to help you out.