AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am working on my 89 V6 and the car won't start. If I put the key in and turn the ignition on the Security light comes on and doesn't turn off. I checked for codes and I got no codes. Does the V6 act differently then the V8 as far as throwing codes? I checked the resistance at the base of the column vs the key and it was identical so it seems like at least my ignition column is ok. When I try and start the car I get nothing, which seems like a VATS problem, but it not throwing a code is throwing me off.

Anyone have any specific experience w/ the 89 V6 and VATS?

camaronewbie

I know on my 1992 TBI car, the light comes on and then goes off after a second or 2 - so does sound like a VATS issue. But getting the same resistance off the key and the wires when key is in is weird.

1) Wonder if there's a break in the VATS wires somewhere farther up than where you tested?
2) Have you checked the Starter Enable Relay? The VATS module as I understand provides the ground for that relay. Can you hear the relay click when key turned to start? (may have to get head in footwell and listen while turning key, they aren't very loud)
3) If starter enable relay clicks, then sounds like VATS is doing it's job, maybe the issue is with the Neutral Safety Switch located either in center console (auto) or atop clutch pedal (manual)

Should be

1) insert key - VATS gets resistance and sends ground to starter enable relay. The relay gets the battery supply from a large yellow wire in my 1992
2) turn key - ignition switch connects power from fuse box OUT on smaller yellow wire into starter enable relay, activating relay, sending current from large yellow wire OUT on large dark green wire to NSS
3) If in Park or Neutral, NSS routes power OUT of NSS on large purple wire, through the driver bulkhead connector to the starter.

Like I said, this is my 1992 - maybe slightly different wire colors on your '89 - especially if you have a 5sp (mines an auto)

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

That is my greatest fear. I really don't want to rip the dash out, but I am getting to that point. It is blocking one of the bays in my garage as I parked it there then a couple weeks later I went to move it and this problem started
I haven't checked it yet. I should dig it out and see if it is getting power as it's easier to reach then the starter.
It's a 5 speed. I probably should dig around and find the clutch switch. When I last looked I couldn't find it, but I should look a little harder. It may of been disabled due the $%^&* alarm system that was installed and later ripped out leaving a wiring mess, which is why I was trying to narrow it down to VATS or not. All documents say it should throw a code, but mine isn't, but I am not ruling out VATS just because it isn't throwing the code as most of the documentation is for the 730 ECM and a little on the 165, nothing on the 308.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

If the VATS is the problem, the ECM will show a code 46 and you won't have fuel injection. The most probable bet is either the clutch switch (remove the lower hush panel and it will be close to the fuse box, connected to the clutch pedal by a white rod), or the starter enable relay, which is mounted just above the door lock relay assembly in the driver's side kick panel.

:edit: Or it could just be that the solenoid crapped out on the starter.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

So I spent some time last night/this morning troubleshooting at the starter relay. What I found:

12 volts to both yellow wires when key in start position.
Drk Green wire (VATS according to wiring diagram for 89 V6) - Found neither 12 volts or ground when key on
Green/White - nothing, but that is to be expected.

I jumped from Large yellow to Drk Green/white and bam, car started. So, there is a reason it isn't pulling any codes... the VATS doesn't know it isn't working.

I am guessing there is a break somewhere in that Drk Green VATS wire to the starter relay.

camaronewbie

So either the relay is bad, or the VATS isn't grounding the dark green wire as it should. You can ground the dk green wire with the relay in place and see if that works (then you know thw VATS module isn't working, and you can ground the dk green wire anywhere permanently). If that doesn't work, then you know the relay is bad, just replace.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

In 89 the Drk Green isn't a ground, at least in the V6. I see 12 volts on it with my other 89 V6 (Identical car, less color and t-tops) with the key in the "start" position. I also see a very small voltage when the key is just in the on position that I am not seeing on the car that is having the problems.

I will take a guess that the relay isn't bad, it just is never getting the "signal" to engage, however it would be really easy to tell just by switching relays between the two cars.

I noticed that after I got the car running the Security light stayed on... so I am guessing the VATS module knows somethings up. I need to see if it is pulling any codes, however I will suspect it is still not throwing any.

camaronewbie

Hmmmm - it was always my understanding that the VATS module provided the ground for the relay, since that's the only wire running to the VATS that's why I thought it would work to ground it.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Do a quick jump between the VATS module wire and ground. Same between the module and the relay. If the engine turns over, you'll know there's something with the module, or the wire is crap. Check the resistance of the ignition lock with the key in as well, down at the bottom of the column where the lock wiring connects to the harness. This will find either a broken wire in the column or the need for a new key.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Most documentation I've seen says it's a ground, too, but from what I can tell, it isn't. I have a feeling 89 V6 may be a special case honestly. Almost everything says it is a yellow/black wire, too, but it is Drk Green for me.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

May have been different for the 89's, seeing as that was the first year for VATS in the F-body. Corvette had it a couple years before, however (not sure of the first year there). Everything I've seen says that the control wire to the starter relay is a ground, just like almost every other computer-controlled device in the car. Check to make sure that the green/white wire is a ground by bypassing the VATS module with a ground jumper. Then you need to figure out why the relay isn't getting the signal, if it isn't.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Also, remember, it was a different ECM. It's still a '308 while both the Vette and the F-body ran a '165.

I don't know what to tell you, but I am not willing to ground a wire that is getting 12 volts according to the volt meter. I will be happy to take a picture of it getting 12 volts and according to my Chiltons body wiring harness it is Drk Green that runs from the VATS module to the starter relay. What I actually did is just jump the 12 volt ignition wire to the 12 volt wire that runs to the clutch safety switch. It's yellow to green/white.

After that it started just fine, however the Security light was on constant.

camaronewbie

Yeah, I see it's dk green (not on your car, on the wiring diags at austinthirdgen.org). Everything I read all over the internet states that it should be a ground - have you tried grounding it just for ***** and giggles? If that dark green wire from the starter relay is grounded, the relay should activate and allow the starter to operate.

I have no idea how it stops the injectors on the fuel side, but I think it's the same - a ground, on a dark blue wire that runs from VATS module to ECM. I'm dying for someone with a VATS car that is still stock and working to ground that dk blue ECM wire and see if their car will run.... anyway...

Have you checked the VATS fuse? There is a VATS fuse, at least there is in my 1992.

camaronewbie

And I understand the weirdness with getting 12v on that dk green wire, and your hesitation to ground it. But, I've also seen the case where alot of ground wires have 12v+ on them before they are grounded elsewhere in the car. I'd think worst case scenerio is a blown fuse if you touched the dk green wire to a ground - it's certainly not large enough guage to draw enough current through the short to start any fire or anything. Just touch the dk green wire for a second to a ground and see if it gets hot to the touch.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am worried it will fry my VATS module completely if I ground it.

On the injection side, if the ECM doesn't see the 50hz square wave pulse it doesn't fire the injectors, though comparing wiring diagram to the tech article, they don't seem to match wiring wise.

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

Oh, and another thing, I checked, that Drk Green wire never seems to ground at any point on key start on my properly functioning 89.

camaronewbie

I gotcha - makes sense - didn't think about frying the vats.

Guess I was thinking about grounding the relay side, not the VATS side - cutting the wire and grounding the relay side to see if the relay activates properly then. I mean, a relay has to have 4 wires, power in to energize it, a ground to energize it, and the two wires that get 'connected' when it is energized. There has to be a ground on that relay - period - no wauy to 'energize' it without a power and a ground. Maybe your VATS is already fried and thus sending voltage on that wire instead of the ground that it should send.

That figures - makes sense for it to be more complicated than a simple ground - at least on the injector side of the VATS disable function.

I'm still fighting my starter enable relay. I finally got to the point where I took the relay out, and put a jumper inplace. I tried 2 different relays and they work fine, until, they don't - and you just never know when that's gonna be. But since I've jumped the relay, starts everytime (until tonight when the jumper fell out I've swapped to carb anyway, so even though my VATS functions correctly, there is no ECM or injectors to disable the signal for. And with the jumper currently on the starter relay, VATS isn't doing me any good there either Think I need to rig a cutoff of my own while I still have a car!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

So, I recant what I said earlier.

The Drk Green is a ground. For whatever reason my voltmeter would only read it properly if I used the COM (black) to check at the wire side and the other (red, whatever it would be called) on the chassis. It would just fine either way if it was chassis to chassis, but only worked for the VATS module the one way.

I see what you are saying as far as grounding it. I am super adverse to cutting any wires, because if I am wrong that means I need to reattach it, which means I would just "jump" it, leaving it connected to the VATS module and the relay. I find wayyy too many hacked wiring harness I spend hours fixing in my own cars from previous owners.

So, now I need to decide if I care enough to dig any further at this point.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Use a test light (has a probe on it so you don't have to cut any wires)... Just stick the probe in the hole for the wire (backprobe) and ground the clip. Nothing will get burned out because the light will light up if there is a problem, and the current will be limited. If nothing is wrong, the light will work just like a wire and the relay will work.

I'd still check the key resistance circuit. Just in case. It could be as simple as the key resistance is out of spec or there is a problem with the lock wiring. Does the engine run or just turn over?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Once I jumped the relay it ran fine.

I already checked the resistance at the wires under the dash and it was the same as the key. I wouldn't of ripped into the car before checking that.

enswrob

im having a simmilar problem.

Fbodymodifier

Me too. The engine is cranking but not starting up. I replaced the distributor, its cap and still won´t start.

JeffG3209

Is your security light coming on and staying on when you put the key in?

If so.... Try getting a new key from Chevy!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

A new key won't do any good if the resistance at the column is the same as at the key (like it was in my case).

Frankieb1024

i had a similar problem on mine which is a V6. all lights would turn on but it would not turnover. i lost one of the keys and got a new on made because i didn't want to risk losing the other key. to make a long story short when i got the new key made the car turnover just fine. it turns out the resistor in the key wears down and doesn't make connection. you can order a new vat key on ebay for like 9 dollars.