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I am wanting to remove the stock power window switches in exchange for regular push button switches. I am adding door poppers for shaved handles and thought I would redo all of the switches in nice push buttons. My thought was that I could use two momentary push button switches per window, one for up and one for down. I pulled out the stock switches and looked at the wiring diagram today and realized I wasn't sure how to pull this off. It appears that I would need a three pronged switch and not a two? Any ideas to help me out or explain a little better to me how the power window switch works?
Mark.
I think I may have figured out two ways of doing this:
1. I would have to use two three terminal switches and wire them so that on both the ground is always going to both window motor leads (One terminal would be fused power, one ground and one would be the wire going to the motor). When I would want the window to go up I toggle one of the switches to the positive connection and use the toggle switch effectively as a momentary switch.
2. I could still use the simple two prong momentary push buttons, however I would need to make use of a relay. The switches would each be wired with one terminal being fused power and the other terminal being a lead to the motor. The relay would need to be a five terminal relay wired for ground switching instead of power switching. IE 87A and 87 would both be ground outputs each going to a window motor lead. One of the switches would also have the output power terminal going to the relay to trigger the relay to switch grounds enabling the motor to operate correctly.
Option one sounds easier however I want to do option 2 because it would create a much cleaner look on the center console. My worry with #2 is that the relay wouldn't turn on (or off) fast enough and I would constantly be blowing fuses.
They react very quickly, you have nothing to worry about there.
Also if fuses blow it's not because the relay (or circuit) doesn't switch off quick enough, it's because there's some issue. The fuses don't blow now when you hold the window switch a little too long with the current switches, do they?
Power to the window motors runs though a circuit breaker. If it trips, it will reset itself automatically once power is removed. You would need 2 switches and 2 relays for each window in order to get it to work. The factory switches have 4 wires. 1is a ground, one +12v, and 2 outputs to the motor. When you rock the switch in either direction, it applies +12v to one of the motor outputs, while simultaneously switching the other output to ground. When you rock it the other way, it reverses the outputs to the motor.
I would also suggest using a +12v source that is not switched. That way, you do not need to have the ignition on to put the windows up or down. I did that to mine and love it.
My thoughts and the schematic I am posting causes me to disagree in that I would need to use two relays per window. The schematic seems logical and makes sense to me. It uses a simple five prong relay that is wired for ground switching. Is there something I am forgetting or have wrong?
Mark.
That's what I had said, 2 switches and 2 relays per window. Your diagram has the positive and negative sides connected together at the window motor. Wired that wy, you'll just trip the breaker when you press the buttons cause they will go straight to ground through the relay. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance to ground. I'll have to dig up the diagram I made up when I was thinking of doing the same thing and post it up. I think I used a double pole relay though instead of 2 relays.
Also, to run the 12v through the switches like that, you'll need switches capable of handling 30 amp to handle the current draw of the window motors. Most small momentary push button switches aren't capable of handling that kind of current.
That's what I had said, 2 switches and 2 relays per window. Your diagram has the positive and negative sides connected together at the window motor. Wired that wy, you'll just trip the breaker when you press the buttons cause they will go straight to ground through the relay. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance to ground. I'll have to dig up the diagram I made up when I was thinking of doing the same thing and post it up. I think I used a double pole relay though instead of 2 relays.
Also, to run the 12v through the switches like that, you'll need switches capable of handling 30 amp to handle the current draw of the window motors. Most small momentary push button switches aren't capable of handling that kind of current.
It sounds like you are not following the diagram. The window motor does not have positive and negative connected together all at the same time, it may appear that way but that does not happen all at once. The ground current will flow from either 87 or 87A on the relay, never both simultaneously.
To move the window up the only action that would be needed (to complete the circuit) is to press the momentary push button and allow + power to flow to one of the window motor terminals. The other terminal is already grounded normally because the normal state of the relay is to have ground flowing from 87A.
To move the window down two actions are happening and happen simultaneously. When the down switch is pressed + power flows to the window motor terminal AND to terminal 85 on the relay which will energize the relay to remove the ground from 87A and apply it to terminal 87 and cause it to flow to the other terminal of the window motor.
The only way I can see this not working (assuming my momentary push buttons will handle the load) is if the relay was not fast enough. I however tend to agree now with six_shooter in that the relay should be fast enough. My thinking is that the wire length from the switch to the relay will be 4-6" whereas the wire length from the switch to the window motor is several feet, I would guess around 8' . That extra 7'6" of wire the electricity would need to travel should be enough time for the relay to energize and remove the ground from 87A.
It doesn't matter how fast the relay switches. As soon as you press the Up button, you will ground both sides of the motor with the way your diagram is drawn. When you press the Up button, current will fllow through the motor, to the down button and then to the relay's coil, tripping it. Once that happens, you will have a direct path to ground from the Up button and will trip the breaker and possibly burn up the button.
I found the diagram I had drawn up when I was thinking of doing this on mine. I may still do it, but as part of an 8x8 panel of pushbuttons to control multiple items.
It doesn't matter how fast the relay switches. As soon as you press the Up button, you will ground both sides of the motor with the way your diagram is drawn. When you press the Up button, current will fllow through the motor, to the down button and then to the relay's coil, tripping it. Once that happens, you will have a direct path to ground from the Up button and will trip the breaker and possibly burn up the button.
I found the diagram I had drawn up when I was thinking of doing this on mine. I may still do it, but as part of an 8x8 panel of pushbuttons to control multiple items.
OK, I think I am understanding what you are saying but I still believe that my schematic would work. Here is my thought:
When the up switch is pressed you are saying that + current would flow to terminal 87. That doesn't matter since terminal 87 is not connected to anything when the relay is not energized. Or that when the up button is pressed a negative current would flow from the motor to the down switch and to terminal 85. That shouldn't matter because it would be a ground current and would have no effect on the relay since it is not energized or wired as a positive.
When the down switch is pressed you are saying that + current would flow from the motor back to terminal 87A. Again shouldn't matter since that terminal is not connected to anything at that time.
The single relay schematic might work, but there would still be a short period of time where there IS a short, when trying to roll down the window, which is usually enough time to trip a breaker or blow a fuse.
The only reliable way to do it is with two relays, there's a couple reasons:
As I said there is a short period of time where the relay takes time to switch that will cause there to be a short.
You have all of the current, and it's a lot, going through those switches. Momentary switches that can handle that kind of current are generally large and bulky, along with being expensive. A relay is MUCH cheaper and you can use pretty much any momentary switch to trigger them. The Bosch style relay that is common in Automotive applications takes less that 500 mA (.5A) to switch. To actually move the window it will take several amps continuously, with a surge when starting to move the window a few amps larger than that. Figure on current draw around 5 to 7 amps continuous , and a surge of of 10 to 15, for motors in good shape with good working mechanisms. Look at the price of switches capable of handling current like this and you will see that using an extra relay per window will be MUCH cheaper.
Just as a reference, I've been working with Automotive electrical for 25+ years, both as a hobby and professionally. I've tried a lot of things and have found many ways not to do things, and many ways that work well. Just use two relays per window, your electrical system will be much better off.
Last edited by Six_Shooter; 05-18-2013 at 12:17 AM.
So is that 8"x8" or 8 switches by 8 switches for 64 switches? And controlling all of what?
Sorry, that should have been 5 switches by 5 switches. Total of 25. I haven't decided what all of them will control yet, but so far I've got 4 for the windows(2 x side), 1each for the trunk pop, headlights, parking lights, fog lights, rear defrost, front defogger(plan to remove the stock hvac controls and heater but still need defrost to pass inspection), 1 to pop the passenger door open(shaved the door handles a few years ago), 1 to switch between the stock horn and the dukes of hazard horn I installed, 1 to turn off the amp for my subs (for when the kids are in the back seat), 1 will eventually control an undercar neon kit,, 1 that will return the headlights to the stock setup (I replaced the inner high beams with high/low bulbs used for the outers so that now I have 4 low beams and 4 high beams), and I'd like to have one that flips the license plate down, 1 to pop the hood latch, and one for the stock interior lights and 1 for some LED black lights I bought to put under the dash.
Fine..... two against one I guess. Are we a consensus that 92RS_Ttop's diagram is the best way to go about it with two relays?
It's not two against one, it's electrical properties against you. lol
Yes, that diagram will work well.
Alternatively, the relays could be controlled by ground triggers. It would likely be easiest to use the positive trigger though, since then it would be easy to connect the ignition source (accessory really) to the control switches to have keyed control of the windows.
I will see about starting on it this coming week. Checked out parts express and it appears they have just the thing for this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=330-078 Dual relay socket designed for power window control from momentary switches.
I will 'third' this - use two relays per window, one for up and one for down. No chance for momentary shorts then. I added relays to my windows several years ago in a quest to make them quicker, by reducing the voltage drop at the motors - worked great.
My circuit just intercepted the signals from the existing switches, and is functionally equivalent to 92RS's circuit above:
I will see about starting on it this coming week. Checked out parts express and it appears they have just the thing for this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=330-078 Dual relay socket designed for power window control from momentary switches.
Just looked at this, it's neat but I'm not convinced the pigtail wiring is up to the task for window motors. Looks a little thin, prolly 5-10A max.
Just looked at this, it's neat but I'm not convinced the pigtail wiring is up to the task for window motors. Looks a little thin, prolly 5-10A max.
I read all of the reviews and none made note of the gauge being a problem. I have used the single relay socket by this brand for my dual fans and have had no problems with the wire gauge as of one year later. I would think that most all automotive relays being made of 30A capacity they would install wires to handle 30A.
Up to you, just looked small gauge to me . I was on a quest for max current, and didn't use sockets at all.
Looks like 14-16 gauge to me, which is plenty. I run my door poppers with 16 gauge with no problems and those are rated at 30 amps. The factory window wiring is only 16 gauge to the window motors.
I received the relay harnesses yesterday, the power wires are 14 gauge (30, 87 and 87A) and the relay switching wires are 18 gauge (85 and 86). The insulation is rated to 105*C/221*F. The wire colors are 85 is white, 86 is black, 87A is red, 87 is yellow and 30 is blue. I will switch places with 87, 87A and 30 for my liking. Changing wire locations on these relay harnesses is very similar to re-pinning an ecm header, just use a paperclip of small screw driver to release the pin/tab. The leads are a foot in length, these should do wonderfully.
Over my extended weekend I was able to re-pin the relays and wire them in to the vehicle's existing power window wiring.
Everything went in without a snag and both windows work just as good as before.
Next up I need to unhook the switches and install them in my new center console top, pictures of that later this week!
Under the console there, they're going to be a big mess and rattle because they just flop around.
I redid mine this way a couple of months ago using a switch out of an early 90s Grand Prix in the console. I think it's somewhere between 10 and 14 gauge I have running from my aux fuse panel (which is run straight off of the battery through individual 20A breakers) to the pair of relays in each door. The relays have been screwed (through their mounting holes) and zip-tied to the inner door structure for extra support.
Dealers choice.
Under my center console lid will give much easier access to them for any issues or relay replacement. If I end up with a rattle sound that you could hear over the exhaust I will make a little bracket that they can bolt to.
Aside from personal preferences, relays for high-power circuits should be located on a practical shortest path for the power wires. The longer the wires, the higher the voltage drop.
For window motors, the relays could be conveniently located behind the kick panels on each side. In direct path for the harness and in an accessible place. Tada.
I have a bunch of relays and 2 control modules under my center console and never have they made any rattling or other noises. 2 of those relays control my door pop solenoids, which pull 30A apiece. Never had a problem with them opening the doors although BBL is right, they technically should be closer to the doors. Mounting them in the kick panels is a great idea, assuming you don't have speakers in there already.
I made a new top for the Center console out of thicker ABS. Just made a tracing of the old piece onto poster board and trimmed to fit. Then I transferred it onto the ABS and cut, filed, sanded and drilled it to size. [IMG][/IMG]
I had traced and cut the ABS out with the template upside down so that the textured side was down and the smooth side was up. I cured it (partially) by covering the new top side with the new 3M Di-Noc carbon fiber wrap. Installed the switches and buttoned it up, works great and looks better than the big yellowed 1980's switches. [IMG][/IMG]
I did a variant of 92RS_Ttop's thumbail (great info by the way)...
I prefer to have buttons ground, instead of running 12v+(for long runs especially) and also using 12v+ from the power running to the relay, to energize the + side of the relay... I changed 92RS_Ttop's diagram to show how I wired it...
Just updating this thread. I have changed where the relays are mounted and how they receive power and ground, slightly. However, the relays never gave me an issue being underneath the center console. No rattling or jostling about.
I removed all my heater/AC system and mounted the relays on a panel that bolts over the old blower motor area. The panel should be grounded to the vehicle automatically then but I ran an additional body ground to it to be sure. All the relays are then grounded to the panel. The relays receive their power from the little fuse block that then receives it's power directly from the battery. The relay switching wires are ran up and over to the center console. I used wires from another harness for the leads so I didn't have half a dozen red wires. Now I have a schematic of "x" switch has "M" wire and "N" with black stripe.
I will 'third' this - use two relays per window, one for up and one for down. No chance for momentary shorts then. I added relays to my windows several years ago in a quest to make them quicker, by reducing the voltage drop at the motors - worked great.
My circuit just intercepted the signals from the existing switches, and is functionally equivalent to 92RS's circuit above:
Back from the dead!
Would this schematic work with factory window switches?
05-17-2013, 11:50 AM
. I was on a quest for max current, and didn't use sockets at all. 
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