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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
Wrong section dude this thread is for PONTIAC IE pre 1980 pontiac blocks being swapped into our cars. The blocks and everything trans mounting related is gonna be different from the Chevy blocks.
I've got a 1991 firebird with the stock 305, throttle body injected, five speed transmission. Me and my dad are looking to build a Chevy 350 motor for it, and install it. I have a question on whether or not the type of block you get matters? Or if any 350 will do okay. Any other advice or tips will help, thanks.
Could anyone who bought the chief many horses motor mount brackets, back when they were available, Post some pictures and some measurements? Best I remember they were a very simple easy to replicate design
Doesnt seem like theres any available at this time-
But ive access to a 521ci swap into an '88 firebird. Owner made his own solid retro mounts to the poncho block. If he can make those available to me, i'll cad up the leafs and arrange to get them tig'ed and into production..
If the old venerable poncho V8 is to live forward,,, it has to be embraced by the 3rd gen tribe.
If anyone else here has access to those mounts, please contact me or post here- rolandracing@att.net
I'ld like to see this thread continue, if you wouldn't mind posting here. I think you'ld be lost else ware. Thanx, and hope to see some progress on your car.
The intent of this thread/sticky is to discuss and collect information about Pontiac engine installs in 3rd gens ("real" Pontiac engines, not an engine that was installed in a Pontiac-badged car).
Here is the start of my swap. I'm using block mounts I bought from Butler Performance (jbp-pontiac.com) P/N: BPI-F10774/$79.95 with engine mounts from a 77 Firebird with a 400 C.I.D. engine I got from O'Reilly Auto Parts P/N: 2387/$6.99. The trans mount from the stock 700R bolts to the Turbo 400 but sits about 3" back from the stock location. I got a piece of steel from Tractor Supply for $18 and cut and welded it in place. Next step is to fabricate a torque arm bracket. I havent decided if I want to mount it to the tunnel or to the crossmember yet.
Good work! Let's see where this goes. Are you keeping the motor stock-ish or are we talking serious HP here?
Mostly stock for now. My last project was a turbo build but went 5 years and I never finished it before I sold it. Priority with this project is getting it on the road first then add better go fast parts later.
Thanks! I used some pipe I had laying around the garage. I cut a slot in it for the mounting plate then added a piece of 3/8 rod on top to reinforce it. If I had to do it again I would have drilled the holes for the torque arm bracket before I welded it to the arm. It was hard to drill the mounting holes once it was assembled.
what are my options as far as motor mounts since Indian Adventures isnt in business anymore?
I am dropping a Pontiac 400 from a 79 Firebird in my 83 Z28 Camaro
what are my options as far as motor mounts since Indian Adventures isnt in business anymore?
I am dropping a Pontiac 400 from a 79 Firebird in my 83 Z28 Camaro
I listed the part numbers and where I got them in my post. They fit well. I just had to drill new holes in the frame.
Still making progress here. I converted to a serpentine belt which took a little time. Cost me around $100 instead of $1k that March wants. I need to cut back the Upper A arm mount to clear the oil filter. That would have been a lot easier had I done that before dropping the engine in. I only need about 1/4" inch. I'm using a Performer dual plane intake and a generic Summit racing air cleaner (pink?)and everything fits under the stock hood.
Very nice!! how tall is that summit air cleaner? do you still have enough room for the radiator and fan in the stock location or are you going to have to move it forwards?
Very nice!! how tall is that summit air cleaner? do you still have enough room for the radiator and fan in the stock location or are you going to have to move it forwards?
The filter is 3" tall with a 1" drop. I had to move the radiator and fans forward just a little but only because of the serpentine set up. The right fan was just barely touching the tensioner wheel. Using stock pulleys and belts it wouldnt have been an issue.
I found using the engine frame mounts I listed in an earlier post that the oil pan was just barely touching the steering linkage. A few taps to the oil pan with the rounded end of a flat crow bar gave me the space I needed. This combination is about as low as you can get the engine to sit in the engine bay.
Did start with factory 3rd gen fbody serpentine pulleys, etc to make your setup or parts from something else? It all looks real nice definitely an A1 job
Did start with factory 3rd gen fbody serpentine pulleys, etc to make your setup or parts from something else? It all looks real nice definitely an A1 job
It's a combination of Ford pulleys and Chevy tensioner and AC bracket. There is a long thread on it on the PY forums (Performance Years)
I haven't seen any info here about radiator hoses so after doing some research, here is what I came up with. I used a generic Gates flex hose for the upper hose P/N:25409 and the stock lower hose for an 87' Firebird with a 350, Gates P/N: 21324. I got both from O'Reilly auto parts. The upper hose is 26" and could be shorter but I couldn't find anything around 24".
I have most of the car sorted out. I found the bracket that mounts the shifter cable to the transmission does not line up with the oil pan bolt holes on the 400 so I had to weld a tab on it. I'm currently trying to sort out the driveshaft. I will probably end up buying a new slip yolk. Hope to turn the key by next week.
I fired it up a couple weekends ago and am working on getting the timing set, overheat and charging issues. Right now it won't idle unless I have excessive intitial timing set. Close to 30 degrees. Might be a mixture problem but haven't had a lot of time to play with it. Cooling fan switch is bad. Won't turn on until over 220. Alternator isn't charging. Dissapointing but glad to finally hear it run.
I pulled a driveshaft out of a 96' Tahoe. It has the correct U joints needed to for the rear end and turbo 400 slip yoke I'm using. I should have it cut (46") and welded this week. The Tahoe shaft has a larger diameter but I don't know if that makes it stronger then the stock shaft. They feel about the same weight. The U joints from the Tahoe are stronger then the Firebird. More material and they can be lubed.
Wall thickness and diameter both affect strength. A larger diameter with the same wall thickness will be stronger than the smaller diameter shaft. For the same weight, a larger diameter will be stronger than a thicker wall (up to a point, of course - a tin foil huge diameter shaft wouldn't be very strong...).
Can you get your full needed length out of the larger diameter section? You'd need new yoke ends, of course. But it would be good & strong.
Wall thickness and diameter both affect strength. A larger diameter with the same wall thickness will be stronger than the smaller diameter shaft. For the same weight, a larger diameter will be stronger than a thicker wall (up to a point, of course - a tin foil huge diameter shaft wouldn't be very strong...).
Can you get your full needed length out of the larger diameter section? You'd need new yoke ends, of course. But it would be good & strong.
I needed to remove 10.5" which could have been taken out of the front narrow area but chose to take it out of the larger diameter area in the rear. I'm welding it myself at home so if it breaks at the weld I won't have to worry about a pole vault situation.
I needed to remove 10.5" which could have been taken out of the front narrow area but chose to take it out of the larger diameter area in the rear. I'm welding it myself at home so if it breaks at the weld I won't have to worry about a pole vault situation.
completely forgot I replied on here, on a couple other forums its hard to keep up with them all lol.
Progress! I dropped the engine and transmission in today.
Curious about how the extra weight effects the ride height on the struts? The "nay-sayers" say another 100lbs makes the front very nose heavy. good job on your progress. Hope to see you work out the bugs for the summer.
Also, concerning the torque tube mount, I've heard of aftermarket ones that take it from the tranny rear, and mount it to a bolt on bracket on the crossmember. Have you had any experience with this bracket?
I haven't driven it yet but I didn't notice a ride height change in the garage. I have cast iron heads on it right now but aluminum heads will shave 60 or so pounds. I think my home made mount would have worked fine but I decided to go with a Spohn trans crossmember made for a turbo 400. It has a detached torqe arm mount.
I haven't driven it yet but I didn't notice a ride height change in the garage. I have cast iron heads on it right now but aluminum heads will shave 60 or so pounds. I think my home made mount would have worked fine but I decided to go with a Spohn trans crossmember made for a turbo 400. It has a detached torqe arm mount.
It is a UMI trans mount not Spohn. I used Spohn sub frame connectors.
I've seen aftermarket crossmembers with a bracket welded to it, that accepts the torque arm. If a tranny other than the factory "tilted" T-5 is incorporated, I would think it would eliminate the dilemma associated with this interchange. Such as me swapping in a Pontiac V-8, (W/O the 14° tilted bellhousing), and the T-5 mounted straight. I also wonder if another shifter would be needed seeing the T-5 shifter is bent to accept the tilted tranny. Wonder if a Mustang T-5 shifter would work? I don't think their engineers screwed up their install, like GM did to our 3rd gens. To this day I haven't found a reasonable explanation why they did this.
What are you asking about? Starter, alternator, and distributor wiring? Pretty basic stuff. Electronic carb, or FI, more confusing.Tying in a computer, to run a processor, even more complicated.
What are you asking about? Starter, alternator, and distributor wiring? Pretty basic stuff. Electronic carb, or FI, more confusing.Tying in a computer, to run a processor, even more complicated.
Well, I seem to have found most of the answers I need here. I have read every post on all 10 pages, and need a couple things cleared up -
I will preface with the fact that I have been a strictly 2nd Gen guy up until this one, my son decided this is the car he would like to build for the Southern Nats in September, so please go easy on any ignorance I have of basic 3rd Gen knowledge. I am inclined enough to know a lot as soon as I receive and look over a vehicle, but some of the more Gen3 specific stuff will escape me
1. Engine mounts - Seeing as IA , CMH, and some of the other links posted have been dead/out of business for quite some time, I see smh's recommendation of Butler BPI-F10774 (which are still available). However, this seems to also require relocation of the frame mounts, and after visiting Butlers site, it appears that these are actually direct replacement for '75-'81 factory hoops (my swap engine is a '75 350, so I have them already). I have been researching for some time and cannot seem to find a straight answer on exactly what year factory block hoops that line directly up with the Gen3 frame side. I saw several times others saying they do, but were not specific on what year or vehicle the engine came out of (A, B, and X bodies had different mounts). I have limited space and time to do an engine swap (borrowing a shop to do so, my in-laws have invaded and my garage is full of their ****) and want to make the initial stabbing and securing as quick as possible (basically get the block bolted into the mounts and trans secured). I can button up anything beyond that at home.
2. Headers/manifolds - RAIII repro manifolds have become semi-affordable (only $100 more than the Hedman shorties, see link below) and are a viable option for me, but I would rather do shorty headers for space and weight reasons. Was it confirmed that the 2nd Gen specific shorties fit or no?
VT, nice to have you on this column. As you mentioned, in the past there were a few available eng. mount kits, and most have dried up. I see now that Butler has something available, which is fantastic. (Pictures posted above) You didn't say what year car you and your son were interested in. Hope you find something you like, and produce something other than a paper pony, which is something that has been plaguing me for years. I have the car, and eng., just haven't been able to get it onto the priority list...yet.
As for mounts, there was a guy a few years back, who put a P motor in his 82, who was on a different site, ( which also has perished), and I conversed with him quite a bit. I'ld swear he told me he used factory sec. gen eng. brackets, and the stock 3rd gen mounts, (relocated into holes already drilled from the factory), and the motor slid right in. I also am basically a sec. gen guy, and new to 3rds, and can't wait to get this swap going.
I like those RA manifolds you listed, and use-ta have them on my 2nd gens, but really don't think they'll work in a 3rd, but can't honestly say, cause I haven't physically tried. Anyway, keep me/us posted on your progress.
The one listed on my tag there, sorry. 1988 Firebird Base with the L03. I very much intend to get this done quickly, I promised him we would have a car to take to the Nats in late Sept. We went the last few years (the one held here is at an Air Museum with warplanes flying during the show) and he decided we needed one to take. So we looked around CL awhile and came across a very clean bone stock (still has AIR) '88 for a steal that really just needs front fenders (dented) and paint, the interior is near perfect. Ran and drove perfect, then just started knocking and running terrible one day after running the defog. Weird thing is, is that while it is stone cold it will run fine for about 30 seconds to a minute with no noise or anything, then just start sputtering and (what sounds like) knocking. I have plenty of experience with TBI messing with 90s trucks for years and it's stumping me. No water in oil or vice versa, pulled all plugs and they were all normal, replaced them. It did start eating MAP sensors as well, been through 3 of them now just running for 2-5 minutes at a time. I chased down a few other avenues that turned up nothing. I'm a Pontiac purist and naturally started looking for a Poncho to swap in and quit messing with this 305. Found a recently rebuilt 350 while I was in Alabama visiting a friend, brought it home, and started doing research on how it will fit. I've already worked out how to adapt the TBI.
I guess all I need to know right now is what is the distance between the mount center holes on the Gen3 frame (which I have also looked for and can't find)? I have the Pontiac engine on a stand and can just measure the block mount distance to determine pretty easily if they will drop in.
It has been confirmed here that RAIII manifolds work. I just want to avoid the size and weight if I can.
Which tranny do you plan on using V? I'm sure you know the 700 in there now has the chevy pattern, which will have to be addressed. But if the entire drivetrain will be located in its stock location, you can just measure the distance from the back of both motors, to the mounts, (comparison) to come up with the location. sorry it's been so long since I've researched this, but I'm also trying to remember if the guy who installed his, said that the issue was also the height of the mount on the frame brackets, relative to the chevy originals. But once again, on his 82, he said the frame was already drilled to move the brackets. Not sure if my 84, or yous 88 is drilled.
05-05-2014, 01:34 AM
