gbayfisher

Hi guys,
I posted a few weeks back, looking for advice on a lsx swap versus a tpi modded engine.
My mind is starting to lean towards building the tpi small block, just wanted to ask a few questions to help with the final decision however.

First of all, I really would prefer to keep the tpi, the main reasons being; I love the look and am trying to keep it looking like a sleeper, also, if i start swapping injection systems I think it would be more pratical and cost effective to just go lsx.
My overall goal is to build a very reliable and streetable engine in the 350-425 crank hp range, more importantly, one with mild street manners, but capable of pushing by trans am into the 12's. The car is not a daily driver or track machine, its a fair weather cruiser and may see the track once or twice a year for fun.
So in keeping the tpi, here are a few questions.

I am leaning towards a 383 stroker. potential combo of forged crank 4 bolt main and vortec heads, cam such as in the xr264 hr 10 or 12 range, ported plenum with aftermarket base and runners. This cam range seems to be in around where i would like to make my hp range at.
I also inherited a set of AFR 195's, problem is they have the 2.05 valve.
I know how well afr's work, but wouldn't this head be too much for my moddest goals? What combo would work with these heads if i choose to keep them, based on my criteria?
I may aslo consider selling the 195's for a smaller 180 head.
Sorry for all the questions, I tend to over think and complicate things, perhaps someone can set me straight!


Some info to add:
-car will stay as a 700r4, built with some more stall
-rear end is 3.23 factory unit , will stay in until it blows.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

keep the 195 afr's, downgrading to a 180cc for a 383 is just a fool mistake.

years ago a friend rebuilt a stock 1988 350TPI, slightly larger cam but not much bigger then stock. Through a set of the old style 195's on it and had it down in the 12.9 range. for the 383 your looking at 195 or even 210's, seeing you want a very mild build stick with afr's 195's. Also your saying your barely going to see the track and is just for fun. 375-400hp range i would save your money and not go forged. hyperteuctic pistons are great pistons and alot cheaper then forged, same with the rods and crank. Save all the money for not going forged and put into the rear that will most likely blow up the first year. Just my 2 cents.

Seeing your saying 375-425 hp range am assuming you mean at the flywheel and not the wheels. if it 425 to the wheels then yes, forged it up, but you said push your car into the 12's so again am assuming fwhp.

gbayfisher

yes, mostly street fun, and flywheel hp at 400 ish. i was worried about loosing throttle response and low end snap with a large valve head like the 2.05 195 afr. i have this notion that 2.05 valves are huge!
I was thinking forged just in case I decide to up the power in the future! You know how it is, good power for today but wanting more in the future!

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

you sure there not 2.02 valves? did someone do work to the heads? If your upgrading later in future then yea go forged. But if your upgrading in the future and switch to a 180 head now your gonna kick yourself in the ****, guess where your motor is going to bottleneck at?

AFR are pretty much hands down the best street head your going to find, they outflow every other head. Keep um, you wont regret it

gbayfisher

I can't say for sure if they were touched, I believe they were not.
I have not picked them up yet, they are there for the taking if and whenever I want them ( nice friend) !
He actually inherited them through an engine swap, heads came off a 350 and have about 300 kms on them
He doesn't need them, he's into 800-2500 hp engines.

My biggest worry is valve size, if they are 2.05, will I loose port velocity or can I help it out with the cam selection? What would be a rocking cam selection for this head, if I end up with more power than expected its fine, I just want nice idling combo thats capable of long highway cruising.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

my opinion is this, and am sure everyone on the board would agree. If your offered a set of 1200+ dollar heads for free, and they happen to be the best heads there is for the street, take them before he changes his mind lol. AFR are far more superior then vortecs, dont get me wrong vortec is the best production head, but AFR's are just that much better. Where do you want your power band at? You looking for more HP or more Torque? I would call comp cams ( exspect too wait on hold forever for a rep ) and tell them your exact combo and what your looking for. I went with Mike Jones custom grind, great guy, returned all phone calls, made the cam and sent it in no time.

gbayfisher

I would say my band would be relatively low due to the tpi set up, hence more emphasis on torque I guess. I am going to call comp cams and see if they can recommend a set up for me.
I am thinking compression ratio at around 10-1?

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

10:1 is good, could probably squeeze out 10:5:1 with aluminum heads. With the TPI and 195 AFR's am sure you can turn that motor 6k easely, if you went with the 180cc then it will be mid range 5k redline. Best bet for comp cams is to do the online chat with them at there website. They tend to respond better rather then calling, my personal opinion.
There gonna want to know the following so have it ready.
-transmission + torque converter
-rear gears
-tire height
-compression
-motor CID
-car its going in
-specs on the heads
-rocker ratio

scamaro355

you are not gonna lose velocity with a 2.05 valve and a 195cc intake head.... the tpi is whats gonna choke it off... im running 200cc intake with a 355... and i love it. 195-200cc intake is perfect for a 350 and to go to a 383 id say 210cc but a tpi will not match up due to port size. Comp will get you hooked up with a decent cam choice.. but since all your wanting is a decent cruiser i wouldnt even mess with the trouble of going 383

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You will be fine with what you have. 195's have a rather small cross sectional area at the throat/port so they will have great velocity. 2.05 valve is standard for the 195's. You can get them in a 2.08 valve that works great for 6500+ rpm operation

180's also will work fine, especially with TPI's rpm range. Its up to you, since you have the set already, i'd use the 195's

Are you using stock TPI or aftermarket TPI stuff?
I'd go custom grind. I'd like to see lower duration but HIGH lift for the heads. If the intake is ported to somewhat match what the heads can flow then it will be great to have high lift. If not then it really doesnt matter all that much.
For daily driver status and 12 second slips, it wont take much cam to do this and probably will run fine on stock tunes
XFI 268 would probably work well. Or something like a xif264 custom grind with 214 intake/218 exhaust. Those cams have good mid high .500's lift which fit AFR heads well.
Anything in the 214-220 intake duration should be all you need to get well into the 12's

gbayfisher

@ ls4gxp, thanks for the heads up, I will let you know how things move along!

@scamaro355. Not written in stone yet, but I have always wanted a stroker motor! Knowing myself, I can see me wanting more if I stay 350.
Thanks for the added imput!

scamaro355

shoot man go 383 with a strealth ram.. you'd love it..

gbayfisher

Thanks for chiming in, I have enjoyed watching you car on you tube! You never seem to stop, do you?
I will take your recommendations and try to package something together.

As for the tpi? I was thinking aftermarket base, Siamesed runners, ported plenum upper, and perhaps a 52-58 mil body. Would I need bigger injectors? Or can I crank them up abit with a regulator?

scamaro355

If your doing a head and cam swap your gonna need bigger injectors and a custom tune.. im running 30 lbs'ers with no problem what so ever

gbayfisher

Bigger injectors are no prob.
As for the Stealth Ram..... They sure do work! A little pricey but we will see how things progress.

scamaro355

yeah they arent the cheapest in the world... but since you already have tpi... u just need the manifold itself and fuel rails... thats how i did mine.. then i just run it off the factory computer with a custom tune. i know those after market tpi base's can but over 400.00 but i wish ya all the best in whatever ya decide to do man... got any question dont be afraid to ask

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It will do very well with SLP siamesed runners and a mild port matched aftermarket TPI base. I helped tune a setup like that using AFR 195's and a mild 216-219 or so deg cam with high lift. Car is very torquey and pulls strong from what I hear. Logs show its breathing well. Maxes out the MAF sensor earlier than my 383 did so its making a ton of mid range torque. Its a smooth running streetable setup. If you did something similar I'm sure it be right up your alley.

Ofcourse like some mentioned you dont need a 383 and AFR 195's to hit 12's. mild cammed full bolt on L98 can do mid high 12's on the right setup. If you have the heads, definately look to build the 383...the torque is worth it

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I would go with the 180's for a 350, and the 195 steet ports for the 383. But in saying that it all depends what intake, and what cam etc....

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I have an excellent condition superram for sale.

gbayfisher

I know a 350 would do it! Maybe I'll take it into the low 12's ! lol.
It may still work the 350 way. I am going to pick up the heads this morning and check the model numbers and such to make sure they are what I need. If not, I will look at some more options. I am also waiting on pricing (stroker versus 350)back from my builder, see what he says about cost.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

383 is going to cost just a few hundred more then a 350 build. if your doing a total rebuild id strongly suggest a 383. Dont kick yourself in the **** later down the road wishing you had went bigger

gbayfisher

I hear you, its pretty much a done deal now! picked up the heads this morning, their clean and beautiful! 500 miles useage.
They are the 195 #1040 l98 65 cc head, with angled plugs. So far, and I will add to it as time goes on.
-afr 195 l98 heads
-Vortec block 4 bolt
-eagle short block kit (383) most likely forged
-comp cam ( based on Orr89rocz) recommendations
-new lower intake base( i assume I need)
-bigger runners
-ported upper plenum
-bigger TB 52mm?

Couple more questions:
-how to retain egr?
-how to retain smog pump?
- what intake do i need to retain a tpi type setup? (edelbrock tpi to vortec intake?

Here's a couple pics of the heads.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

wish i was as lucky as you and got handed a free pair of #1040 afr heads

GL with your build!

gbayfisher

Dont be sad!

Thanks, me and my friend go way back and help each other whenever we can. He owes me sometimes, I owe him sometimes, this ones gonna cost me some elbow grease

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

do u need vortec heads for vortec block? superram is $1200.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No nothing special about a vortec block. Still a 1 pc factory roller block. Only difference is the front cam plate on 91-99 motors has different bolt pattern than the 87-90 blocks

gbayfisher

I believe the block I am looking at is a 95-96. Will this suffice?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah it doesnt matter. Ideally you want to find the ones that are 4 bolt mains for most strength but I believe you can do the 2 bolt to splayed 4 bolt conversion for a good penny and get even more strength.

I dont know what the vortec truck blocks are...if they are 2 or 4 bolt mains. But either one will work for a 12's second car.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

my 96 vortec truck motor was 2 bolt

gbayfisher

The one I was inquiring about is a 4 bolt, I think it's out of a 96-98 vortec truck. I was under the impression that the 1500's got 2 bolts, and 3/4 and up got 4 bolt. But I could be wrong.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

could make sense, maybe even 2500 and up have 4 bolts. mine came out of a tahoe, think there platform is on 1500 frame or something, idk lol

gbayfisher

Update for the stroker build.
I think I have the long block figured out. I have to pick up the block tomorrow and if it checks out o.k, I will be starting the build soon. I have narrowed things down to this:

-Vortec 4 bolt 1 piece rear
-afr 195 l98 65 cc heads
-scat rotating assembly, with forged pistons, I beam rods, forged crank ( even though builder says not needed) I figure for the extra $300-400 why not.
-rods will be 6 inch
- compression will check in at 10.25:1

Still undecided on the cam, i will call comp to see what they recommend. I was thinking of bumping the duration up a little, maybe in the 220's to 230' range?

scamaro355

def in the 230 range... it will be a little torque monster!

86White_T/A305

This should be one hell of a tire screamer with a tpi ontp of the motor.Follow Orr's recommendations..he helped me alot on deciding what to build for my motor aswell and it performs.I choose to go with the stealth ram for a lil better breathing room uptop for the high way cruise.Im not a big fan of the tpi topend choke when getting into 5000+ rpm.Going 383..with a decent cam and those heads will get you probably more than your asking for lol.Match that with a good exhaust too..longtube if you can will be a great help but shorties will do just fine.

You wont regret the heads..I wish all sbcs came with either a afr 180 or 195 to start lol..flow well and have great valve control.oh and throttle response.. snappier than stock thats for damn sure lol.be gentle leaving from a stop

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

230 deg is better matched to that superram or stealth ram. If TPI, i'd still be somewhere in the 220-ish range..224 or so. That compression is good for a mid 220's cam.

gbayfisher

Funny, as you were writing your post I was looking at the comp cam "cam quest" program. It put me in a 268 xfi hr 113, which specs out at
218/224 .570/.565 (lift is including the additional lift of the 1.6 rockers), lsa is 113 . Pretty close to what you recommended earlier.
What would be the benefit of going 1.6 for this setup instead of using 1.5 but use a higher lift in the cam?

gbayfisher

"Could" be more than I asked for, but I'll take it.
Most definitely will be a tire shredder, and Orrs recommendations will most likely be my route for adventure.
I pretty excited about the build, been away from cars for too long and in the past ran mostly stockers. This build should put a grin on my face

scamaro355

yeah after rethinking that OOR's got the right idea because with the tpi. its not gonna be a topend screamer.. but its will def be a tire burner once you get it tuned!

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

assuming dished pistons? the eagle forged rotating kit with steel crank only came with +5cc flat tops for mine, putting me on the edge of 11:1cr. Did you order from summit or is the builder ordering your parts?

No clue about the roller rocker question, although all my parts are already bought am still curious how that works hand in hand, less rocker more cam, less cam more rocker. Does it even itself out in long run?

Orr was my main man choosing my cam, thanks again orr for that direction Just for giggles call up Mike Jones and see what he recommends, Easy guy to talk to on the phone, seems alot nicer then comp IMO also. I took Orr's advice, comp cams, and mike jones. Mike and orr's cams were damn near identical with what they advised, comp cams was in a duration of 250ish+ as orr's and mike both put me at mid-low 230's, but thats me running a carb. I went with Orr's suggestion.

Someone correct me if am wrong, but seems this build is going to be a tad more then 400 to the flywheel. Am looking at 400+ to the wheels on my build with a carb, i have 5.7 rods, 1.52 rockers, he has 6'' rods and 1.6 rockers, Same heads. Our cams have same lift but my duration is 230ish and a smaller lsa. Is this where a carb shines over TPI in just raw power? Or, are you all not telling him he's going to meet his goal with an added 50-100hp lol I know nothing about TPI, barely about carbs, just curious and would like the knowledge Similiar build here with me and him, carb vs tpi, but with 100hp not accounted for.

Again OP, Wish you best of luck, cant wait to see the results!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Just for giggles call up Mike Jones "

Yep, three of us here locally are running his camshafts with great results. I ran the XFI268 cam for quite awhile. Problem was at 5000 rpm (350rwhp) it would flat line right up to 6000 rpm. That was with my 355. Called Mike Jones and he recomended his 228/228 cam and it made peak power at 6400 rpm and I swear it was hard to tell the difference in the idle. He wanted to put it on a 112 LSA put I talked him into a 113 LSA as I have to pass California smog. Go with the AFR heads. If you want to use the TPI we can direct you into getting maximum performance from the after market parts. Hey its only money.

gbayfisher

How did your mid range torque change from the cam swap, did you loose alot or was it negligable?

thomas1976

Not sure if you plan nitrous or forced induction. Here is a link I saved reading about pistons http://www.kb-silvolite.com/article....on=read&A_id=5

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Here's a thread on the subject. I see you posted in it, didn't you get the answers you wanted there?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...afr-195-a.html

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

TPI will be done by 5000 rpm on a 383... a miniram or stealth ram will go to 6500+ There can be 100hp difference at that rpm but yes, he's probably going to be higher than 400hp at flywheel. He doesnt need to use the AFR heads but since he inherited them, might as well use them.

gbayfisher

I may be considering a slightly bigger cam, at this point I plan on sticking with the tpi even if it chokes a bit at upper limits. I have to do some more research on modified tpi's
to see where the final product will fit. I have a month or so to figure out the cam/intake combo.
I know the heads will flow at higher limits if I go there.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

It's not the flow you have to worry about, it's the port speed. Faster isn't always better.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"How did your mid range torque change from the cam swap"

Everytime I have added "upgrades" to my motor the torque has increased or unchanged. It is all about filling the cylinders with air and fuel. The more you can get in there the higher the torque and horsepower. If you do go with the TPI initially you can always upgrade it. It sits on top the motor and you don't have to take everything apart to get to it.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Dont waste your money on the throttle body. That's a few $100 in your pocket.

gbayfisher

Good to know!

Doom86

So we're building a 383 to peak at 5000RPM with a forged bottom end and $1400 heads?

Is this for a lawn care truck or a F-body?