19f0rmula88

im currently working on my formula. its a 305 tbi thats in need of a rebuild. i want to have it bored to a 327. now my questions are. since im have never done major engine work like this myself before.

1. if i pull it and strip it and have it bored to a 327 will it need the stroker kit or can i just get it bored and buy a rebuild kit with pistons that are .030 over?

2. can i just throw my heads back on it or will they need work too?

im also very confused as to what style this engine is. its an 88 with the centerbolt heads but the cam isnt a roller cam its just a hydraulic flat. what is up with that? there seems to be no holes in the block for the lifter retainer plate. also

3. when i reassemble it can i use my stock flywheel and harmonic balancer since the engine will be internally balanced?

4. with the transmission i have its a t5 is this a world class t5? should i do any work to that too? and lastly

5. should i remove engine and transmission together as a set? if so is there anything i can put in the tailshaft to prevent any of the fluid from making a gigantic mess in my driveway?

thank you all so much for any help i get.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You can't "bore" a 305 to a 327.

Putting money into a 305 short block is a bad idea. It costs EXACTLY the same to rebuild that, as it does to rebuild a 350; except, at the end, you have 45 more CID. In other words, about 15% MORE ENGINE, for COMPLETELY FREE.

Think of it as being like going to the grocery store with $5 in your hand, and you want a steak. You walk up to the counter and steak is $5 a pound. Now it's decision time: do you get a pound, or do you decide to be "different" and only get .85 lbs with your $5? Hrrmmmmmm... tough decision, eh?

Why would it be any different with your engine?

If you have TBI heads, they are garbage. But yes you can "throw" them back on your new engine and cripple it too, just like they're crippling the one you have now.

Your block may have been swapped at some point; casting # may tell that.

Yes you can use your existing damper. The flywheel as well, as long as whatever crank you end up with, is the same style (1-pc or 2-pc rear main seal) as whatever you have now.

Your trans would have been the 2nd design, from the factory; the version that has the stupid "TQM" "PIT team" "six sigma" "ISO9000" related buzzword attached to it. Who knows what's there now, if the engine has been changed, the trans might have been too. Doesn't make any difference to the issue at hand. But it's easy enough to tell.



2nd design is the bottom one. Look at the countergear bearing, near the center of each pic; it's visible with the trans installed in the car.

Personally I prefer to handle the engine and trans separately, but some people prefer it the other way. Either will work. It depends on what tools and facilities you have available. No there is nothing you can put in the extension housing to prevent it from making a mess; the lefover fluid will just come out the shifter hole instead, since that has to be out of there to get it out of the car.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

A ton of searching and reading needs to be done!!!!!

luvmy64

19f0rmula88

well i was doing some research on here on builds and i realize that the t5 WILL handle a 350 so i decided that instead of wasting money on a 305 with a hydro flat cam im just gonna save all the machine work and stuff and just order a brand new engine from summit racing. one with a hydraulic ROLLER cam. the good ****. the engine im looking at can make 290 or 260 hp with headers and a 4 barrel carb.

now can someone help me with my wiring harness issue?

1gary

Well this is a case of LTL(link to late LOL)

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...cks/index.html

Yep-I know a comic book build,but might still have "some" useful info.

luvmy64

The T5 will handle it until you try to power shift it. Then it will break. Guaranteed.

AlkyIROC

The reason you can't bore the 305 out to make a 327 is that the cylinder walls are not thick enough. The 327 uses the same 4" bore as the 302 and 350 engine. They just use a different length stroke. The 305 block can not be taken out to a 4" bore however if you did take it out to 4", the 305's crank would then make it a 350. You would have to destroke it to drop it back down to 327.

The best you can do and there's no reason to even try doing it with a 305 is to put a 400 crank into the block and make it a 334. Even then, you're investing money in a 305 to only make a 334 and a 350 is still better.

If you were able to bore out the 305 block to 0.060" over, it would still only make a 315. Taking the cylinders out 0.100" over which probably isn't even possible in a production block only makes a 322.

1gary

Did you read the link??. Pure numbers stated the 305 has a better rod ratio than a 454.Claims of a 150 hp gain. Could it be the patented answer of a 350 or 383 isn't always right??. Might want to spend the time to review the link.I do know there are tons of 305 builders out there.

AlkyIROC

Magazine articles are never good real world examples. They show what may be possible but if you read between the lines, there's a lot of info that they fail to mention and so many people fall into the trap that just because it was done in a magazine that it's feasible to do. Take any magazine build up with a grain of salt. Use it as a guideline but never expect similar results no matter now much to try to imitate it.

You can make a 300hp 2.5L Iron Duke if you want but it's never practical.

1gary

You see the comment in my post about it being a "comic book".I'm real street too.But given this section being about engine swaps/builds-a real street builder/swapper takes the objections into account and figures out solutions.That is a the positive part about this section.Also,we know there are tons of 305's out there cheap and was OEM in these cars.So the link "could" help alot of members.My two cents worth anywho.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

And then you'd make more power with the same parts on a 350. You cant win that argument. That's flywheel hp with big long tubes and a fancy double pumper carb with no accessories or equipment.

Im all about you doing upgrades to your 305, but do cheap ones. I always mention Matt's 305 because it's a great example. Pocket ported 416 heads, a big solid flat tappet cam, a good dual plane intake and a 650 DP and he did 12s in it. It can be done. But there are smart ways to make a 305 fast and there are stupid ways. Stupid way #1 is stroking it to a 335. Smart way is just throwing a big cheap cam in it, but it requires gears, a properly done carb swap, and a great exhaust to do it.

1gary

I am kind of confused why stroking a 305 is stupid??. Doesn't that better the rod ratio??.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

"Rod ratio", on the list of things that REALLY matter, is somewhere WAY DOWN AT THE BOTTOM.

At the VERY TOP of the list of things that DO matter, is your BANK ACCOUNT. Next most important thing is, WHAT DO YOU GET FOR YOUR MONEY. Next up will be, EFFORT: ideally you'd want to do NOTHING and get EVERYTHING, and failing that, you want to do THE LEAST and get THE MOST that you can. Next most important is, RISK: that is to say, the certainty of a SATISFACTORY outcome multiplied by the cost of obtaining it, compared to the possibility of HAVING PROBLEMS multiplied by THE COST of fixing it. This is not brain surgery; it's just a car. Stick with the simple stuff. Come back down out of the clouds of "theory" and get PRACTICAL.

So let's start there. BANK ACCOUNT first.

Stroking a 305 requires buying a $$$stroker kit$$$$ which comes with a crank, rods and pistons. THe pistons are $$$special$$$ because only about 5 other people in the history of the planet have tried this, and EVERY ONE OF THEM was disappointed, so nobody that's ever seen one buys another. Consequently, since they're uncommon, they cost more. Last time I looked, that "kit" was in the neighborhood of $500.

Now compare that the BANK ACCOUNT aspect of a 350. You go to the junkyard and get yourself a 350 short block; can be as wore out and used up as you want, no sense in paying for useful life when you're just going to tear it down and throw it all away. Instead, you look for a good CORE: one that has all the properties that enable a good finished product. If I was doing this, I'd be looking for a 96-2000 truck or van 350 with about a million miles on it, that smokes like a freight train or leaks or whatever; just as long as its not BLOWN UP. This will cost $50; MAYBE, if you're a terrible negotiator or if you're just a plain duamba$$ and say the word "Vortec" or something so that the junkyard spots you as a hot-rodder and not just some guy fixing his old work truck, might cost you $100. Let's take the worst case and call it $100.

OK, there's the BANK ACCOUNT item on our list, we have that info now, we can fill in the blanks and determine a winner and cross it off the list and move to the next item on the list.

Score: stroked "free" "paid for" 305 "you already have": $500; 350 you have to buy, $100. Now I'll freely admit that I'm not the brightest bulb on the string; but when I asked my financial adviser which one was better, it didn't take him long to come up with the answer. Looks like the 350 is WAY AHEAD at this point in the analysis.

Alright, item #2: what you end up with. If you stroke the 305, you come up with a 334 (at .030" over). If you just bore the 350 the same normal maintenance amount, it ends up at 355.

Now again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer; but my adviser assures me that 355 is larger than 334, in all possible universes that we humans have access to, and that there's no way the 334 will ever be more than the 355.

OK, 2nd item on the list analyzed; again, a clear winner; I'll let you figure out which one that is.

3rd item then, is effort. Now it's pretty easy to see that alot of that is going to be the same for either approach; you have to assemble the short block, clean everything, have the block bored, and so on, for either one. But the 334 has one HUGE intermediate step that the 350 DOESN'T, namely, we have to grind out the block to fit all that other machinery in it. That can be a pretty fair amount of grinding. Takes alot of time, might involve assembling and disassembling THE WHOLE MOTOR enough times to be sure that every rod clears every place in the blocka nd every cam lobe; I guarantee that it's going to be several evenings of work for the average home hobbyist.

Now I can't emphasize strongly enough that I don't pretend to be the sharpest tool inthe shed; but even I can see that this 334 business requires extra work. I HATE WORK. I will avoid it at all costs. So I think we have enough indo to declare a winner on THIS item on our list, and like the others, cross it off, declare a winner, and move on.

Looks to me like the 350 beats the 334 hands-down in this category.

Are we seeing a pattern emerge here? HHrrrrrrmmmmmm..... I'm not smart enough to be sure, so let's look at the NEXT item on our list, before jumping to any hasty conclusions. I'm too stupid to be sure that I've analyzed this correctly, so I'd better keep going.

Item #4 on our list is RISK: the relative probability of a FAVORABLE outcome times the cost of obtaining it, vs the relative probablity of an UNSATISFACTORY one, times the cost of fixing it.

Well, we already looked at the costs. We all know what a 350 is and does; no mystery there. We already determined that it costs $400 LESS to avoid the risk of building the stroker. (IOW, we pay $400 EXTRA to take on EXTRA risk) Furthermore, if the 350 goes south somehow, we just go to the well and draw out another $100 core and start over; but if the 334 takes a left turn, we NOT ONLY have to nuy another core; BUT ALSO, another $$$kit$$$, AND ON TOP OF THAT, do all that extra WORK. Once again, I'm sensing a clear winner here.

So there you go. Simple logic from a simpleton. We looked at the differences in cost, finished product, effort, and risk. Let's recap.

Cost: 350 $100; 334 $500. Winner: ??
Result: 350, 355 CID; 334, 334 CID. Winner: ??
Effort: 350, basic; 334, lots of extra. Winner: ??
Risk: 350, zero; 334, substantial. Winner: ??

I'm forgetting here; which motor won each of those 4 categories? Was there any kind of amniguity anywhere? Did we make any mistake in our analysis? Is there anything we left out? Did I tell any lies?

Then we can pretty much BELIEVE that our analysis is trustworthy, eh?

In what way did the 334 beat the 350?

Which motor is the RIGHT one to build?

How can this be hard to figure out? If even an epsilon-double-minus sub-moron like ME can "get it", surely all you people out there that are [forrest gump] smaaaarrrt [/forrest gump] can "get it" too.

1gary

The link started out saying people respond like this when talking about a 305.(did you even bother to read it giving it a fair review??."open minded")Don't think cast 3.75 cranks would have a end cost of $500.00.

"We" all pull the trigger on advise for the 383's without much thought.But when the same is applied to a 305,we throw the garbage can,it's contents,and anything else we can mustard up.

A open mind to me means at first a poster says he want to do "what". I quickly explain the short comings if there are any and then move back on topic in support of his post.That is a guy that doesn't care about anything else.I am suggesting collectively given the section of this forum we all jump in to help him do what he is asking and not drive a stake threw his project's heart.Like of a run what ya broug(sp) outlook.So for me,bring it.Whatever it is and I will try to help you build what you want.That is the freedom of hot rodders and doing what everyone said wouldn't work got us to where we are now.I an asking members of a engine swapping section to support that attitude.Hell a screaming 334 that puts down a r**er....................pretty cool in my book.

I wanted to add that" relative scale" to the gain a 305 gets when stroking it to 334 is on the same basis "relative scale" for a 350 to 383.Impacks the torque curve positively.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Of course they do!! We all hate seeing people waste their money on a dead-end road that disappoints them. Is this a problem somehow?

I think we differ there... The TRUE meaning of an "open mind", which you would do well to learn from, is to objectively and dispassionately gather data about the thing that is proposed; lay out all THE FACTS in front of you; and then, without prejudice or precondition, make an unbiased decision.

Now that you know what an "open mind" REALLY IS, in what way have I failed to meet the REAL definition?

The point is NOT that a 334 couldn't be "good"; that it isn't "better" than a 305; or any of those things you falsely accuse me of saying. I NEVER SAID THAT. Stick to THE TRUTH and THE FACTS please, do not put words into my mouth. The point is, IT'S A WASTE OF RESOURCES. You can spend less and get more some other way. By that definition ALONE, even without a bunch of "rod ratio" monkey-spank, it FAILS the test of being a wise course of action.

Similarly, at no point did I say anything about that the 334 wouldn't produce "more torque" than a 305; I would NEVER say that, because it WOULD BE WRONG. It would not be THE FACTS. THE FACT is, torque is BMEP x bore area x stroke; bore area x stroke is just another way of saying "cubic inches"; since a 334 has more cubic inches than an otherwise identical 305, then of course it will make more torque. And likewise, THE FACT is that a 350 will make more torque than that.

Sure you could build a 383; but that costs more than a 350, and DELIVERS more besides. I never said a word about that. AllI did was to prove using FACTS that the notion of stroking a 305 is INFERIOR to a certain other alternative, in 4 primary ways that make it completely fail the test of being a good idea. Again, please don't put words in my mouth.

People come here to get THE FACTS, not a bunch of misguided cheerleading for ideas with no merit. If that's what you want to deliver, then I guess it'll be pretty easy for those of use that are more FACT and TRUTH oriented, to TUNE YOU OUT.

1gary

So your offended by my quest to encourage the foundation of hot rodding??.

grasshopper-rod ratio's is as old as the stone age and a proven fact.Without it no need to stroke anything.Notice how now from the originally used 400 rod has grown to now the commonly use 6" rod or even more??. The over square formula works.Much to lean there.

If your comfy just say over and over again that same thing........well..........


My background is involvement sites just like this one for many yrs aside from tons of builds in my 64 years.One common reply is when a different opinion comes to light is to defend ones personality and throw in a sound bite of a formula to validate knowledge.

If the poster has whatever,I am going to help him with what he owns.

Sooooooooooooo,the term of a open mind,have YOU read the link yet??. I think not.That is kind of my point ya know.No drama from here.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not offended. Just tired of rehashing what was settled 10 years (or more) ago.

About the only thing that has changed in that time is that an LS1 is a better choice than a 334.

Yes, I have read the linked article. They mix & match a bunch of information, and I don't trust their assumptions without better information about what they had to start. They show the later 9.3:1 pistons, but call them "low compression" and refer to the "high-performance 305's", which actually had those pistons (the last "real" flat tops were in 1986). They kept calling the stock heads "junk", but never once said what castings they were (there were actually some pretty good factory 305 castings). Bottom line is the same heads & cam on a 350 shortblock in the same condition would make a bunch more power (the cost of shaving the heads to 305 chamber size would be about the same as buying a usable 350 shortblock).

But, keeping to the OP's questions, verify what you've got. It should have come from the factory with swirl port heads and roller lifters. Post casting #'s for the block & heads so we all have accurate information about what you're starting with.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'm not the least bit "offended"; that's not a part of the world of FACTS and TRUTH. Those things don't care whether I get "offended" or not, so I just don't worry about that.

Yes I've seen the link. People have been posting that for some years now. I'm guessing you think you're the first person that's ever seen it or something, and that the laws of nature have been re-written because you did?

I know all about rod ratio "theory". I also live in the real world with stuff like MONEYy and RESULTS - the 2 most important factors in this hobby - to concern myself with though. "Theory" isn't worth a crap while you're getting your butt whipped by somebody that started out THE SAME as you but spent ALOT less getting faster than you. But that mundane and ordinary stuff doesn't apply to hot-rodding, I guess?

But OK, we can talk "theory" if you like, though. So explain to me in 100 words or less how the rod ratio (or anything else) of a 334, is better than the rod ratio of a 350 built out of the same rods.

1gary

The comment I made that you quoted was not directed towards you and from what I have read of your posts would never be directed to you.

I'm all about getting this thread back on track,so I like the last part of what you have posted sir.I'll wait for his info to follow up.

Thanks,

Gary

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

In response to the OP's last post before Gary sent it off into the ozone:

And, what would that be?

AlkyIROC

It's always nice to have a better rod ratio but few people understand why.

Back when my had a 383, it was built old school. 400 crank turned down to fit into a 350 block. Stock 400 rods and rod bolts. Stock .030" over cast 350 pistons. This was the way they were originally built because there was very little aftermarket parts back then and what was available wasn't cheap.

I was able to get that 383 to push my car to very high 11's at 118 mph racing at altitude so sea level performance would have been even better and something better than 3.27 gears would have helped even more. I blew up the engine when either a rod bolt or a cast piston finally failed.

The short rod combination wasn't great but it still worked. I was only running pump gas. There are so many factors in what rod ratio works best including the type of fuel being used. Not every engine "needs" that better rod ratio so spending the money to buy long rods and the special pistons required to use them doesn't usually gain anything other than bragging rights.

I use a long rod in my BBC because it allows for a lighter piston. Spinning the engine to 7000+ rpm, I want the bob weight down as much as possible. The longer rod and lighter piston can do that. I have no idea what my rod ratio is. If you have a street car that rarely sees 5000 rpm, exotic parts are not required.

Bore builds HP. Stroke builds torque. Torque is how much work is being done. HP is how quickly that work can be done. I've heard of so many people who have only driven a car with a 305 that are so amazed at how much more power a stock 350 has. Both have the same stroke but the larger bore of the 350 can easily make more HP. You can have a 4 cylinder import engine or even a V6 make the same amount of HP as a 305 or 350 but they can't produce the same amount of torque so they have to rely on gearing a lot more. Doing work quickly is fine but if there's little work to do then it's still not very powerful.

19f0rmula88

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...ml#post5023193

1gary

I agree that the long rod vs short rod argument has been going on as long as you could remember.The aftermarket has made a move to the long rod tech as the later OEM's.Surely it is for good reasons.I planed my 383 based on pistons and a Howards crank for sometime.When I wanted to buy a Howards 5.7 rod 383 crank,I found they didn't make that any longer and I had bought the pistons and finished decked the block for that set up.I complained very much to Competition Products explaining to them it was my game plan for awhile.They came up with the last one for me as a customer service resolution.But the subject of rod ratio and what everyone is doing was the for most front topic moving to the 6" rod.That was less than a month ago.Overall the main thing was it does compound both torque and hp.The but the one thing that comes into play that I didn't want is the piston pin location in use for the street.Just a FYI post guys.

19f0rmula88

i have an 88 5.0 block with a hydraulic flat cam ill have to get back to you about the head casting #s since the car is at a different place than my home

19f0rmula88

i wanted to work with what i have. how on earth would i be able to go to the junkyard buy a 350 and bring it home? i have a 4 door sedan how would i put a big *** filthy engine in my car without ****ing anything up? i know the obvious answer is to rent a truck but thats exactly what i DONT want to do. especially since the ONLY thing i would need it for is to bring the engine home.

i am tired of hearing the usual just get a 350 its better than a 305 and costs the same to build answer. i am NOT building MY car for power im building it because the 305 is what i have. i have a car that can give me my speed fix when i need it. (70 chevelle)

im going to get a reman 305 from my local auto parts store since that seemed to be priced the cheapest im gonna have it shipped to the yard where the car is instead of renting a truck and spending unnecessary money

1gary

Well lets guys see what we can do to help out that effort with what he owns.You got any other questions,please post them so we can see what we can do.

19f0rmula88

the engine had a noise coming from it. different people tell me different things. someone said its a rod knock others said it was the lifters worn out. im not sure what it is but the chance to start the car is long since been gone. i know how the engine removed from the car and pulled apart. the lifters were worn to hell and back. im thinking about removing the heads and seeing what the cylinders and walls look like if its good ill clean up the block and try to remove the rust in the lifter gallery put a nice cam in it and look for some heads if mine are the apparent tbi junk ones.

i want to see what i can do with the 305 though without having to go into completely rebuilding it. however i think i should since its at 175k miles. but depending on what the cylinders and walls look like will depict that. i want to get a nice summit cam for it would anyone recommend a nice cam that isnt pricey it needs to be a hydraulic flat tappet cam.

would a set of double hump heads work well on my application? i see lots of craigslist cars with high power running double hump heads. i want to use heads that arent 87+ because the dang intakes are expensive as well as other parts.

i have a double chain timing gear set for hydraulic flat cams i just need mainly intake distributor carb and cam

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The problem is a 334 costs just as much as a 383, actually probably more since you have to buy those weird stroked 305 pistons to fit it.

The cost of a block is negligible in the big picture. $50-$150 in the face of what is a 1000-4000 dollar project. The cost of the stroker crank will likely be at 3 times what your block cost you. Why buy expensive bottom end parts and cheap out on the block and end up with 50 less cubic inches? It just doesnt make sense.

How do you plan to take your 305 to the machine shop to "bore it to a 327" then? Is this something you're capable of doing on your own? At some point you'll have to figure it out. Oh wait, you're paying real $$$ for a remanufactured "core" to be freighted to another location. How is this cheaper than a buddy with a truck and a trip to a junkyard?



You can make a 305 fast and fun. And if you want to spend money on it that's just fine and dandy, have fun doing it.

19f0rmula88

ok so i will see what i can do to get a 350. im gonna go to a few of my local autoparts stores tomorrow to see what ones have a reman 350. im most likely gonna do that since i can get a 350 complete bottom end with heads AND a maintenance free roller cam. then i can drop that in. im basically up ***** creek. i have a 305 thats a waste and a t5 thats a waste. if i build the 305 i wont have power if i build a 350 i break my transmission. so idk what to do. im thinking about pulling the transmission and selling it then swapping a transmission. i know a 700r4 can hold my 300hp im looking to make

1gary

I would pull the heads and the pan to inspect it(rod bearings,main bearings) ,then base my game plan after that.Might want to take pictures to post after you have that done.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im all about telling people to ditch the T5 and go T56 or TKO. But the T5 will not immediately croak and die from a 350. And a new T5 is all of $300. If you break one and c ant afford a T56, just get another. They're almost disposable. So just shift it gently and it will hold fine til you can afford something better.

And if you get a 350, do not get a 2pc RMS 350. Get a 1 pc RMS with the roller block hardware on it. Look for the metal spider in the lifter valley.

1gary

Well I missed the part you decided to go with a 350.I suggest this OEM cam:14097395.Nice idle,big fat torque curve,roller hydro.It works well for your application.