83firechicken

all right i am in the process of planing out the build of a 406 to take the place of my 350 in my firebird project, i have looked at a lot of small block build threads to get ideas and direction on what to do as well as helped my bud's at the local machineshop build a few of there own, so i know i can do the work of building it and get all the actual machine work done

now before we start on the engine here's what the car's set up will be

90/10 drag struts front 50/50 rear
2inch drop springs
polly bushings all around
stranded steering box
non-power brakes
jegster torque arm adjustable
jegster panhardbar adjustable
jegster lca's adjustable
llc relocation brackets

the trans will be a rebuilt turbo350 set up for street and strip use
the 8.5 10bolt will be beefed up with some wheres from 3.42's to 4.11's gears and a good posi unit , waiting on the engine before i choose final gears

the car will have full interior and a mild sound system, it's not really going to be a all out race car but won't be drove more than once or twice a week 2 months out of the year so it can be pretty aggressively built,i don't mind running stall converters and such and i won't need any ability to produce vacuum

the limitations to my build so far are this
must run on pump gas
i want to use g.m. vortec iron heads with mods of coarse
i want to have the option to run nitrous latter on if i decide to


the starting point of this engine is a 70's stranded bore 400 2 dolt main block

now plans so far are
0.030 over bore
polished/ground crank
4 bolt splayed main caps
ARP main,rod and head studs and bolts/studs
clevite bearings
5.7 rods
forged pistons and matching rings (unsure what type /brand piston to go with yet)
hi volume oil pump
street strip oil pan

this should make a solid bottom end that should last
now for a cam i want to go solid roller if the vortec heads will allow it
for lifter's i am looking at a set of lunati pop ups , any opinions on them?

since nitrous is a strong possibility i figure a mls type head gasket is a must in this engine if i can get one for the 406 bore size

as for the heads they will get a mild port and polish on the exhaust side, cleared for stiff springs and a higher lift cam as well as for hardened push rods and roller rockers

to finish things off a weiand speed worrior intake

also will a big block quadrajet be able to support this engine and how will a quadrajet work with nitrous

thanks for your input ,i hope i haven't bored you to much with this and i know some of you will have some good ideas to help me figure this this out a little better and if you need any other info just ask i will get back asap

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Why?

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...que/index.html
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/vort...ock-61682.html

1gary

The combo of a cast crank and depending how big of a nitrous shot could be a problem.The trend is towards 6" rods.In fact I bought the last Track Smart Howards 5.7 383 crank.They are not offered any longer.It might be just me,but I think you spend money in payments for tank refills that if you where to spend the same amount on the build for N/A without the spray,you going to be money up.

83firechicken

i know that a cast crank is not ideal but i wasn't planing to load the nitrous to it, 150 shot is about what i would run max,i want it to mainly be a n/a motor i just want the option to use some spray if i want to

1gary

3.75 forged cranks aren't that much money.Maybe once you cut your cast deal,you would find your close to the cost of a forged one.Check it out on this site:

www.competitionproducts.com

Remember to take the advantage of a 6" rod.

Honestly not a big fan of the 400's.We have had a number of them in a race deal and they leakdown unreliable.Make very sure who ever does the machine work they use torque plates and you have heads drilled for steam holes.

83firechicken

yea, the problem i have with a 6'' rod is they move the pin up into the oil ring, i will look into the new crank if mine needs to be cut any just to be on the safe side

vetteoz the reason i want to go solid roller if possible is i want to go roller instead of flat tappet and the solid roller set up that i installed for a guy in his 84 chevy truck worked so well i wanted to use one for a while

1gary

The spacers work well for rings.Primary reason for the trend towards 6" rods is less thrust on the piston thrust side and dwell.

I suggest you save up alittle more cash for the good guys forge parts.That way you know it's covered and I thought that was what you where asking in your post.

83firechicken

ok so i was checking into your link and i noticed this scat crank it has a 3.875'' stroke and is for use with the 6'' rods you where telling are the way to go and is only $40 more than the same scat 3.75 crank i have now so unless there is a problem i haven't noticed i am going to get this and increase ci at the same time as adding strength to the bottom end

http://www.competitionproducts.com/S.../440038756000/


and the thanks for all your help i really do appreciate it , the point of this post is to go through my build plan make a solid list so when i start ordering things so i

#1 get the all right stuff that i am going to need
#2 build a combo that will not need a lot last minute changes as it goes together
#3 have an idea on how it will work after its done

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Why limit yourself to those heads? How much work will you do to those heads?

1gary

Check out this link by clicking on the tech center.Lots of useful info there.

www.enginebuildermag.com

Might want to bookmark it.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

shop a bit and you will dig up brand new alum vet heads $400 bolt on.
set to run..
just shop the net

1gary

A couple of things I wanted to make you aware of.Although popular Eagle and Scat are off shore products where Eagle is the worse of the two being made off shore and machined off shore having taper size issues to the worse case of forging issues breaking behind number 2 main journal.The Scat is forged off shore and machined here.Again sizing issues have been found.It isn't that I am that big of a patriotic,but I went with the Howards because of the Q.C.that comes with the product limiting problems.And yes-it does depend on the budget your trying to keep within.

I bought a set of vett heads out of a auction brand new to resell them at a swap meet.We have been doing that for over 20yrs.They do follow the same path as guys who want to put on 305 heads on a 350.What I mean by that is they do have a small cc chamber to raise C/R but do not flow well and can not be opened up to flow well as the aftermarket stuff.So it is kind of a Moog point to raise the C/R because you can't feed it with enough fuel.The rule of thumb is .5 X C.I. so in your case it would be .5 X 406= 206cc intake runner.Of course that is just a general rule of thumb and certainly you have play games with that intake runner cc's to move torque curves around where you know and understand torque is king in street driven cars.Also you need with a mechanical roller cam to feed it with the proper intake runner.Don't starve it off with the cheapest head deal out there.No doubt about it,the top haft investment is the corner stone of the build below it.The aluminum head can be used to lower a S/C ratio without having to deal with a cam bleed-off in duration in D/R's,but for durability long term I like the cast iron aftermarket adjusting the S/C with deck heights and piston choices.As far as the Aluminum head guys here seem to like AFR's and my choice in cast iron is RHS.Both can be viewed in the link I left for you in Competition Products.It wouldn't hurt you to chose a head with the over built 3/8's rocker stud given the mechanical lifter cam.Oh yeah in that site is clearance or specials where they are selling new products off which in some cases are just new over stocks.

I should have said that I suggest a 195CC intake runner for your 406.That a 220cc intake runner for the street impacts the bottom way too much.In fact a 220cc or more intake runner the bottom falls out.

83firechicken

thanks for all the info and, it's really helping because i have just about figured i will end up putting more into these vortec's than a set of cheep aluminum heads will cost me and get less out of them

as far as scat cranks go lot's of guy's around here run them in 350's and never broke them yet , but i do understand your point about offshore product's that's why i am not building a honda or a Volkswagen lol

will i need to do a lot of block clearing for the 3.875" stroke crank over the 3.75"


these jegs heads seam to be pretty good deal to me
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...ductId=1593012

what do you guy's think

83firechicken

oh yea just noticing my own screw ups but i probly should look towards the larger 72 cc combustion chamber heads if want to be able to run pump gas at 406 or 421 ci

1gary

I suggest you spend on a better forging for a 3.75 crank/6" rods where clearance isn't a issue.Howards part number h403756012T.4340 Track Smart or the part number 403757TS2 for a 5.7 rod.Main mgs is upgrade the crank.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Keep it simple.... 3.75 crank and a good 210cc head for 6200-6500 rpms or 195cc if you want under 6000-6200. A 400 can breath, i wouldnt hesitate to put on a big head but 210cc that flows in the 290-300 range is about the best bang for the buck for a street/strip 400 inch under 6500 rpms.

A 421 will need 220 cc or less rpm if using 210-215 and smaller heads. Big difference with that stroke

Vortecs can work but you wont get more than 5500 rpm out of the motor...but it would be torquey. If you want vortec style, go with GM large port vortec castings, 215cc i believe

83firechicken

ok gary Howards crank it is then , now as for heads lets get this out of the way, i really would like to to a round 6000 max, what i am going for is a torque monster that will do a good 1/4 mile pass but have the enough torque on the bottom end to really roast the tires

so i think these should work from what your saying because i won't be turning past 6000 rpm,

jegs http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...14026/10002/-1

now lets say this engine works out to 10.5 to 1 compression and has a weiand team g intake on it and this cam

http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/...rentProductId=

can you give me a hp and torque estament for that combo, as both a 406 and as a 420 just so i can get a idea how different they would be

the cam and intake and compresion can be changed if it will help the build i just picked them as a base line set of parts to see how this combo would work

thanks for taking the time to help me with this project

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Should be a strong setup. Heads will need the springs swapped for a set thats suitable for solid rollers tho. Figure that into your build. You can pick up a set of profiler 195 or 210 cc heads for similar price from Speier racing heads and have them custom taylored to your requirements with whatever springs and valves you want. Jegs heads may have more spring options available. either way I think its capable of 500 hp

83firechicken

yea i knew about the springs but thanks always good to be reminded lol i will check into
have to check into Speier racing
any idea where i would be for torque with this setup

83firechicken

by the way Orr89RocZ l love the looks of your car it looks mean as hell

1gary

I suggest you stick with 195cc heads.I think 220cc's would leave you with very little bottom for the street.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A faster port like AFR 220's will still have great bottom end on a 400. If you cam it right these motors make alot of torque.

Now I had the 195's on my 401 turbo motor. It drives around great on the street and really does have strong torque considering when its off the boost, its trying to breath thru a tiny 78mm single TB, 3ft of 3" feeed pipe then an intercooler, and 3 more feet of 2.5" charge pipes off the turbos which are sucking through 3.5" pipes THEN its trying to exhale thru 2.5" collectors into tiny .68 a/r T4 turbines

So off boost the car is a slug but STILL has plenty of torque to move this thing around with its 2.73 gears and TH400 trans and at 9 to 1 compression.

I'm going to a huge port 245cc head now and much bigger cam. I expect to see some low end issues but I still expect it to be very driveable. I planned on tuning it on motor before adding the turbos. We shall see what it does. I may even dyno tune it on motor alone. I've always been told its hard to overhead these motors, but alot of the 210cc builds i've seen on 406's and such make great power all the way to 6800 when cammed right, so I think a 210cc head is a great port size for a street/strip 400. You can really get nasty with power in the upper 6K range with larger heads but on a stock block, it may not be a good idea to rev that high for long.

1gary

Hey Orr.I'm not much different than most in these posts in that I am real good at spending our people money.Ya know your right at the jagged edge with your engine now that you have perfected the turbo set up for a aftermarket Dart or World blocks/stroker.Now that would put a smile on your face all week long..Don't know your location,but the Indy Drag Racers auction is coming up and the vendors usually have show specials.Two yrs ago at a show like that in SYR,NY one was selling over stocks all machined ready for rotating assemblies for only $1,250.That is a hell of a buy.That surly would give you some thick walled/deck SBC thunder.

Opps-I see you haul from Texas.We used to see guys all the time coming from the deep south because the show in Indy is one of the best and biggest.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Racers...803455?sk=info

Check out this consignment lists.All kinds of parts:

http://racersauctionandtradeshow.com...norlisting.php

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Car is in PA where I am originally from I already have an aftermarket Dart SHP block, but I should use a Little M block for this build. Oh well.

I'm good at spending other ppl's money But having been there with similar motor combos, my advice is justified. I got the 195's on my 401 and will test the 245cc's next year. I used 195's on my 383 motor. My buddy uses 195's on his 408 4.06 bore'd all stroker and runs high 11's in a fairly heavy car. My other friend uses ported AFR 195's that now cc at 210 cc on his 406 stock block, and he runs mid 10's on motor. Well he now has SHP block like me, but before it was running similar times on stock 400 block. So yes, you definately dont need to go big. A 195 likely can do everything you'll ever want out of a stock block.

But for a limited useage street strip build like this, I kinda like a 210-220 head and spin to 6500+ hp peak. Might as well take advantage of your money and make sick power. 600hp can easily be had with a hydraulic roller and a 220 head. Look up Dr J's performance street bruiser engines using his budget 220 air wolf heads! 640hp!! I love me a hot street motor

1gary

Soooooooooo I am just thinking here.Your freshen up your 195's and sell them to the O/P. I got a question for you through.Don't the use of turbo's give you a strong mid range,but has limits in the upper rpm range because you have to be careful in cam duration selection??Honestly I am not a turbo guy.I do think in no small way the turbos help you with the larger 220cc heads.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well you can cam the turbo motor for any rpm range you want,you just need to make sure the exhaust side is large enough to pass the flow and not become a restriction. If it does, you have high back pressure and the motor cannot evacuate exhaust gases and thus limits rpm potential. If you have too much pressure, no change in cam/heads will pull more rpm.

But with a good sized turbine side, and good heads/intake that can support rpm, you can make power alittle higher in rpm than the cam is normally rated for. Some guys do claim that turbine sizing does have more effect on powerband than cam size but in reality its all a complete package deal. They all have to work together.

My new setup has big cam and big heads and alot larger turbine housings....i should turn atleast 1000 more rpm than i have been. It should be fun. Boost will overcome any lack of midrange torque. My car made almost 1100wtq on the dyno thru the converter, so its doing its job. Its brutal

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

Am I the only one here who had bad luck with 400 blocks?While I always encourage a forged crank,I never had one in my 406's,but gave up after my 3rd block failed.
Theres plenty of power to be made with a factory 400 block,but I split cylinders twice and broke webbing in the mains once,then gave up on production 400 blocks.Not trying to spend extra money for anyone,but from my own experiance,I wouldn't put that kind of money into a rotating assembly unless I had a stouter block to put it in.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

if you are going forged, it would make sense to go aftermarket block. Its likely the block will be damaged before the crank will break

1gary

I do think the supply of good 400 blocks is drying up.The thing is if you find a candidate for a build you do need to sonic check the walls,mag everything,and do all the work using torque plates.If not done failures abound.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

SHP block assembled ready to ship is 1800. At what point do you call it quits on finding a good 400 block and just going aftermarket?

1gary

Yeah Orr.That is why I pointed out the show special for $1,250.