alan91z28

Some of you guys have seen my thread on my '85 Z28 that i have done the LS3 TVS2300 swap into that has been a multi-year project that has been fun

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ne-swap-7.html

but now i have some even better excitement as after 10 years of looking i located my first car, a 1988 Camaro Sport Coupe that i bought new in the spring of 1988 when i was 20... I traded it two years later on the '91 Z28 vert that i still have when i graduated from college.

Anyways i have been looking for it for a long time and started to think i may not find it, but on Labor Day weekend and the next week a couple of things fell together and all of a sudden my lost Camaro was found... Although not quite in the condition i had last seen it! (I have aged a little better than my first Camaro!)

alan91z28

So the salvage yard manager and I quickly concluded that this was clearly worth a lot more to me than to him and by mid September it was home

As you will come to see it is going to need a little bit of work before we are ready to install a monster LSX with 6 speed into this one... but my son and i will be making this into a pretty neat swap i promise and will give some nice documentation in this thread

NOTE (July 2015): I had this thread moved to the standard engine swap thread as due to the requirement of installing back a sbc to get the retitle to happen from the salvage cert in PA i have decided for now to leave it for the time being as sbc and will document that work in this forum

Mlanzo

iTrader: (1)

WOW, great story here...has she been badly molested? Any more info on it? History?

alan91z28

i will start catching up on the tear down process that my son and i have been doing over the past several weeks. We have a lot to do before we will be putting in the new drivetrain.

This one is in bad shape underneath as you will soon see, but since it is my actual first car, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" as a famous US naval officer would say!

The interior front seats had been changed since i had it as my interior was all black, although as you can see it doesn't matter since those red seats are toast

After we pulled out the interior and carpet you get a pretty good idea of the condition of the floor and also then getting it on the lift as you can see the bottom end of the car from the firewall back is going to have some major work.

I will be replacing the entire floor and then also the back lower subframe on both sides... as this car has already a salvage title on it there is no way it would be worth it if there wasn't the personal attachment i have to it... it will give my son though some practical instruction on drilling, sawing, plasma cutting, and welding!

it will be a big job, but once done it should be like new on the bottom again. all the panels on the car except the rear driver quarter are original so it will be also some decent amount of work to get them restored vs replaced, but since they all have the original VIN stickers on them need to do it!

alan91z28

As most of you have a good handle on how to rip one of these down i will go pretty light on the pics of the take down but i will show how we fix the floor and subframes, etc as that will be pretty involved. Also the swap will be well documented

However here are a couple of pics of what we have done over the past couple of weeks getting things apart. Since the underside including drivetrain, suspension, etc will be all new, the good thing it is just a get it out type of job!

my son is 14 so he is getting some good mechanical experience out of it as you can imagine he is already wanting to drive...

of course the one thing he gets to skip versus my original experience growing up was doing it on jack stands in a cramped unheated garage with just basic tools, although to be fair this is a much bigger job than i could ever have done in my parents garage 30 years ago!

Edwardgp

WOW that is wonderful, almost brought a tear to the eye. Good luck will be following your progress.

jbenge

iTrader: (2)

Subscribing...keep us updated on your progress. I think we all have a car our two that we used to own that we would like to find again and fix up.

lizardkng

Awesome.

Heritage Z

iTrader: (4)

Thats really cool. I like to hear about stories like yours. Subscribed.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Whew she's a little rough on her underside! Poor car! Glad you found her and are going to get her back together though. That will be a fantastic project for you and your son! Those projects are always awesome and I cant wait to start my own project with my son in 15 years or so haha.

Ide love to find my first car (67 Bonneville)...but I have had zero luck, and Im not sure Ide want to deal with that car at this point haha.

Good luck with her and looking forward to watching the progress! If it turns out half as good as the other car it'll be a sweet ride again for sure.


J.

STREETDEMON

that's a great find. my dad called me about a year and a half ago, he found my first pickup, that he bought new in 79. i restored it in college, and when i moved i had to downsize my fleet, it was the first to go. he said it was trashed out, it had gone to a high school kid who destroyed the restore....dad asked if i wanted him to pick it up, i told him i didn't have it in me to restore again...haha. oh well. good luck with your project, what a great experience for your son!

Mlanzo

iTrader: (1)

Well you know you have your work cut out for you, and im sure you know you will never make anything back on your investment, BUT since this is your first car, the sentimental value is priceless. Good luck, and get some gloves on that kid!

Jeffs82TA

iTrader: (1)

That is a lot of rust, good luck with your build!

6SIX6

iTrader: (35)

This is a great story. Im currently trying to track down my parents 10th anni trans am as a surprise for my moms 65th birthday. I got 4 years still to find it and fix it but im thinking its been crushed

alan91z28

Thanks guys for all the great feedback... clearly the payback on this one is with the emotional value of finding my first car and then restoring with my son and that of course trumps the $ aspect... J, you will have some good times to look forward to when your son gets old enough... also probably a lot more tools, etc compared to how you do your awesome builds now so it will be fun telling him how you had to do it

So this weekend we worked on taking out the front end wheel assembly / k member, etc... doing this on the lift of course isn't too bad. use the locking roller jack to lift on the subframe and then get most everything disconnected with just the middle bolt on each side holding in the k member (i also just cut the springs with the torch to make it easy since they won't be re-used), drop the lift back down and support the k member on the low profile trans jack, take out the remaining bolt and it is off

alan91z28

then take off the struts from the spindles, rotate the k member assembly 90 degrees and slide it out... pretty much came out without any issue although on the passenger side rear k member bolt the interior weld nut broke loose, luckily i was able to take the bolt out without trouble but will have to repair it, i think once the floor is off i can get in and tack it

the good news is the front of the car is pretty much fully solid and while needs cleaned up, after a good soda blast and some minor work it is pretty much in good shape unlike the rear

i have been gathering the floor / rear subframe repair components, i will take a couple of shots of those so you can see the different options i am considering

Tinbender59

man that is a big dog, RUFF RUFF RUFF, LOL. the bonding of a father and son on projects like this one, and my truck, Are worth their weight and time in gold. My friend, this project will pay dividends long after you and I are worm food.

camaro1185

That things a little rough, but it will be good times working on it with your son. I hope one day when I have a kid of my own we can build a 3rd gen together!.

alan91z28

So i have been a little behind on keeping this project up to date, but the whole family is involved in our Church's Christmas Musical, so a lot of November / December were tied up with that and Christmas.

However, prior to that, i did get going on getting some replacement pieces. As you have seen, the rear and floor of the Camaro are in really bad shape. After a lot of consideration to have the best car possible after it is restored i decided to go with a complete rear subframe back-half from another '88 and also replace the floor in its entirety.

Here are some of the pieces that i will be working with... Bruce at Hawks really helped me out getting a clean back half of another '88 camaro and then i also picked up some floors and other pieces while i was at it... i won't be using all of these parts as the front is in good shape and only one of the floors, but you can never have too many parts

The key is doing the back half this way will provide great structural integrity with all good metal, i will also tie everything together with subframe connectors as well.

This of course is a little challenging as the car will be basically getting cut in half and is going to require some good fixtures to get it right

alan91z28

So over the past couple of weeks we really polished up our knowledge on 3rd gen dimensional data and got going on the fixturing.

First up was to get as much information as possible on true dimensions and then decide on how to build the fixture.

For information on the frame dimensions we used the following sources
- 1988 GM Service Manual, has some good dimensions but not really enough
- 1988 Mitchell Body and Chassis Dimension Charts, this was tough to find but a great resource
- 1988 Chief underbody map courtesy of another member who posts in the body forum... this was also very helpful

Interestingly all three of these resources in the end where combined and checked between themselves to get enough info for the fixture we are building... I also did some tram measurements myself, but i didn't want to trust this as i am not sure how true this body is (especially the back) and i didn't want to put another one of my 3rd gens on the lift instead to get measurements

So the fixture is going to consist of three basic pieces
1. A main fixture made from 3X3 3/16 tubing that runs the full length of the car and is able to roll
2. A front subframe fixture made from 2X2 3/16 tubing that will mount to the front subframe and then sit on the main fixture
3. A rear subframe fixture made from 2X2 3/16 tubing that will mount to the rear subframe and then sit on the main fixture

This will provide a true stable platform that also allows the car to be separated and then the new back half mounted to fixtures with known datum etc

In the attached pictures you can see the main frame now assembled, it has 15 foot length with the castors spaced for the 101" wheel base of the camaro. Also you can see the start of the front subframe fixture

alan91z28

Here is where we finished up yesterday, with the front subframe fixture now finished.

I have it mounted in place just sitting on the lift with the back half of the car jacked into position that the rear fixture will provide.

The front fixture mounts to the rear most k member mount bolt and then also has pins (bolts) on the front part of the fixture that sit in the large 24mm hole that is at the very front of the subframe

The good news is that the front subframe mounted right up to the fixture that was made to the book dimensions indicating that the front of the car is true. As an additional check i also trial fit the BMR tubular k member i will be using and that fit right up as well.

Now with the front half of the car support with this fixture we will concentrate on getting the back axle off and finishing the rear subframe fixture. Once that is done we will be able to mount these all on the big base fixture and roll the car off the lift and turn it around and place back on the lift so it is positioned to get ready for the big cut!

25th327RS

iTrader: (2)

Real awesome to find your original Camaro. How exactly did you find it, just stumble upon it or was it a search that specifically led you to it?

alan91z28

I just kept doing carfax, etc checks to try and see where it was located... it hadn't had any activity since 2006 and i had driven around that location and asked some people but no one had any leads.

Anyways then about a year ago a salvage title was listed against it and the town it listed is pretty small so i went to the salvage yard and after talking to the guys there and looking through the yard all of a sudden there it was!

cIaRmOaCrZo

very interesting story. i will never sell my first. and i think what you are doing to this car is the right thing to do, warm tingly fuzzy fealing haha. mabey it can be your sons first car too...

alan91z28

Over the past two weeks we have made some good progress...

last weekend we worked on getting the rear axle assembly out and also getting the back subframe jig made

the back subframe jig is attaching to the shock holes in the spring tower and then also in the back hole (2nd from back) at the rear of the subframe

the second pic shows the shock hole piece in, the rear piece was not made yet in this pic

alan91z28

once we had the subframe jigs made, it was time to get the big jig on the lift to mount the entire assembly on to

we used some heavy duty 4 foot jack stands to allow us to suspend the camaro and drop the lift down to the ground so we could role the main base jig unto the ramp

alan91z28

with the main jig on the lift, we lifted it up so it now held the camaro with the two smaller subframe jigs now sitting on the big base jig

alan91z28

then today after accurately position the front subframe jig onto the base subframe jig and weld tacking it in place so it was secure, we rolled the camaro off the lift, out the door and turned it around.

then it was back up on the lift and positioned with the rear end towards the garage door so we can cut the rear and be able to remove it and bring the new rear in when we are ready

we spend the rest of the day putting some internal bracing inside as well as adding a brace bar on the main jig that we will use to securely hold the rocker panels...

a little more work on the supports and we will be ready for the big cut!

83C_CamAroZ28

iTrader: (12)

Great Restore/Rebuild Project you have going on. Keep up the great work.

alan91z28

Made some good progress today and also no turning back!

First up was finishing the bracing of the interior and rocker panel as well as getting everything removed from the back end (ground effects, bumper, tail lamps, etc) that will be reused...

alan91z28

then time for the big cut...

we chose to did it leaving some generous room on the top and bottom of the b pillar as that way it is easier to get those matching portions exact as not much will be in the way of working on them.

for the most part the cuts were done with air and electric reciprocating saws. a couple places needed to get out a couple radiac type cut off tools, but it wasn't too bad. the jig held everything steady.


i am now considering the floor versus the back, ie which one to install first... there are some pros and cons of each, i was originally thinking about the back, but now am thinking about the floor as i think i could get a whole one piece floor back in with the back out, but i need to think about that more with my son and my great helper and friend Rich over this week

alan91z28

a couple more shots with the back removed

jbenge

iTrader: (2)

Nice work, I don't think I would have the patience to tear a car down that far.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Wow... That is a serious project you got going on there!

Im jealous of your patience and attention to detail, esp when setting up those jigs! Great work!

J.

UnstableAviator

Wow!

Clearly you have the facility and know how to get this project done, so that makes it pretty special.

It also makes me very happy to have a rust free Thirdgen!!

alan91z28

thanks guys... clearly this is a lot of work and only worth it at this point if you have an emotional attachment to the particular 3rd gen... however in another 10 years i wouldn't be surprised if more of this becomes the norm as you the supply situation changes as it has with 1st / 2nd gens

also it is a great bonding experience with my son and makes for some great stories for the future...

RockJay81

iTrader: (1)

Awesome project. Good luck.

alan91z28

This weekend was spent mainly starting to get the rocker and b-pillar interfaces cleaned up.

On the b-piller the need is to remove first the re-enforcement plate by taking out the two sheet metal screws and drilling out all the spot welds... with a seam breaker / gentle use of the air chisel it then comes out pretty well

alan91z28

on the front side i sanded off the paint and found the factory brazing line...

i think i will probably have issues getting a good weld on top of the braze if i cut it there so i marked a cut line 2" below it with tape so i could cut consistently and used a 3" diam 0.035" thick cutting wheel on the die grinder to make a clean cut

i am still giving this some additional thought, but this gets me in the ball park of how i am likely going to do it (i may cut up the back hatch line since that has an obvious lap and join that part at the factory position

25th327RS

iTrader: (2)

This is an amazing project. I wish people would look at what you are doing, to understand and grasp how much work goes into correctly repairing body, and more importantly structural constructions. No offense to anybody, but body filler and sheet metal screwed down over rusty floors is not how you fix stuff, it amazes me how many people think it is a good repair. Very happy to see a in depth project done the right way!

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

subbed!

cam-

now THIS is a resto. I have a car that needs this exact treatment so shoot me a price if you want another job when your done LOL. You'll know exactly what to do twice or three times as fast by then :P

alan91z28

i know what you mean in terms of the first time around on anything... however on a bright note, i have so many extra parts from things i "learned" on my '85 IROC LS3 swap i have a pretty big head start once i get to that point!

the first actual cut was the hardest to put saw to metal, after that there is no turning back!

cam-

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Been lurking in this thread. I personally think you're crazy putting this much effort into a 3rd gen, as much as I love them, I cant understand the emotional attachment to a vehicle even though I would be hard pressed to get rid of any of mine. I had a fire in my 91 GTA and as much as it sucked I didnt feel anything after the whole event. I gutted the car and am now working on a C4 IRS since I figured I had nothing to lose and if it comes to it I wont have much of a problem putting the saw to it if I cant figure it all out.

On the other hand, working with your son on this is something neither of you will ever forget. I got to work on my 88 GTA with my grandfather for a few months, that was better than actually working on the car.

Cant wait to see the end for you!

alan91z28

While I like 3rd gens (i presently have 6), for me it is more about all the family memories when i was younger through present, and those keep building...

Now that my son is 15 and has a big interest in sport cars (imagine that), it is a great project to build father / son bonding that we both will remember and tell stories about as well as practical mechanics training for my son

alan91z28

so speaking of some father / son bonding time... yesterday our first item of business was to get the new back half out of my other garage and onto the fixture so we could get some direct perspective for final cuts



first pic is the basic arrangement on how we are going to get the piece onto the big main frame... lift cart is 1000 pound capable

once we had the new piece over by the work garage, we took off the pallet and then mounted the back sub-frame jig to it while it was vertical... the sub-frame jig mounted to the new piece without issue nice and square

alan91z28

then it was time to lift it up and get it on to the lift cart in a horizontal position

my son had the job of tractor operator, while i was on the ground labor... trust me when i say it made for some memories we both won't forget

i don't have any action pics (or audio!) of us doing it, but the basic process was as follows

- lift the piece up a couple of feet off the ground
- get the lift table around to the back side
- pump up the lift table so it was the same height as the shock frame jig mount and push it in as far as it could go
- as my son lowered the bucket, i pulled down on the back of the jig to roll it horizontal

it actually worked out pretty easy, but lets just say it is important to give clear and precise directions with your son running the tractor that is between you and a fairly heavy piece!

alan91z28

Next we rolled it into the garage and aligned it to the height of the main jig on the lift and pulled it on...

no problem, as you can see the right equipment though makes it manageable

now it is time to start making the precise cuts to get the two pieces together

alan91z28

We have been making some good progress over the past couple of weeks getting the front / back half merged

Since the original roof is going to be retained, first thing was to take off the roof section of the new back half

on the inside need to drill out the spot welds of the re-enforcement places and get the main plate off and the corresponding sheet metal channel that is behind it

then i made the cut along the braze line as the rough cut since the real cut will end up lower on this piece