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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
Not sure Id run a HV oil pump but do what you and your engine builder think is correct.
I have long tubes but aftermarket Kmember and it fits with that. Its supposed to fit a factory car soooo you should be fine.
No updates yet. Sorry. Im in the process of moving to the next town over so Ive been out of commission for months ongoing. Jim still has my motor. Im contemplating dynoing it before install because it looks like this year is done for me getting this car together. Ill update as soon as I can. Should be settled in by end of the month. Thanks for bumping up the post.
Well just thought Id bump this back up for anyone still interested. This is so slow going and running into hurdles, some unexpectedly. Did get the roll bar in about a week ago. Here:
Basic 6 point chrome moly. The initial plan was to setup the rear end as well but the main issue I ran into was the rebuild of the 700r4. Basically no one makes a billet output shaft for these anymore. So very unwillingly I had to upgrade to a 4l60E. And compounding that debacle I need to purchase a Holley Dominator ecu to replace my holley hp. The Dominator will control the electronic trans. As we speak Frank Cahall is rebuilding the 4l60e this week.
On to other issues. Been thinking about setting up the nos system. And how I shoukd go about it. I have to buy injectors and na Im getting 48lb holleys. But was contemplating going with a dry kit. Idk. If I did that i would be looking at 66lb minumum injector size. Still on the fence about what size tb to go with as well. Monoblade or 58mm tpis. Any opinions? Thanks
Thanks for that.It has been a long time. Sent him my 700r4 in sept. Waited until april to find out that CK in NY, the only place in the country that makes the 700r4 billet output shafts stopped making them.Had to make the jump to the 4l60e. And now the Dominator ecu just to control the trans. Its a good and bad I guess. No tv cable and now I can control the trans through the ecu. Bad is the total cost to do it. Frank has been great and helped me so much in build.
definitely go with a wet plate setup for the nitrous if you do it.
you are only looking at about $1,000 fora general 100-150 shot setup and a few accessories
I have been leaning on doing a 406 build, but this whole writeup about teh 421 has me intrigued.
definitely go with a wet plate setup for the nitrous if you do it.
you are only looking at about $1,000 fora general 100-150 shot setup and a few accessories
I have been leaning on doing a 406 build, but this whole writeup about teh 421 has me intrigued.
how's everything coming along with the car?
Its comming along slow. Had a roll bar installed in the car and the trans build became a fiasco when the part maker for the billet output shafts on the 700r4 stopped making them. I had to go to a 4l60e which had me have to upgrade to a dominator ecu. $1800 later on that one.... If I was in your shoes today, I would go with a 421. If your stuck with using a factory 400 block, 406 is the way to go. I was contemplating a 434 but on a car thats street driven and if you plan on using a hydraulic roller and a mini ram, even ported you will be limited rpm wise. Motor is just too big cubic inch wise unless your going carb. If you do, do the 245 heads. Any question shoot me a pm. I can hook you up with my builder and the prices are about as good as it gets through him.
awesome thanks! I appreciate the info. I am just getting a head start on researching things and hopefully come December I will have the $ and the brains to get everything going. It will definitely be a nitrous motor no matter what since I already have a wet system in my car and I would just need to get bigger jets, a different plate for the plenum and longer lines I think. I would be going with a Dart SHP aftermarket block and not a factory block. I hope to do everything right so the engine will last a long time. Thanks for the advice again!
If you're somewhere around Illinois let me know when you get it going and we'll have to get a group of TGO old timers together for a fun night at the track.
This is long time coming. Some new pics got the tq arm and driveshaft loop installed. Plus headers modified for dual exhaust. That's coming in a few weeks.
Just touched up with some roll bar and chassis paint. Fabricator is confident that 3 inch dual ovals will be the best for ground clearance. I know I'm going to loose some. He had some 3 inch oval and it looks quite a bit smaller than 3 inch round.
A long time coming for sure. Around 5 years now? Looks like you are doing a nice job and as others have stated (the obvious) is should run very well. I did a similar engine build Dart 414 with AFR 210's and a mild HR cam. It's a good combination for a daily driver that sees some strip time. I've beat the heck out of mine and it just keeps asking for more. You went a bit farther with the shaft rockers and some other things that should make it bullet proof. I run a lot of nitrous through mine and ended up making a custom spray bar for inside the intake. Jetting should be in the ~250-300 range with no issues so far. I ended up going with the spray bars in the plenum because I didn't like the front mount TB with a lot of nitrous in front of the TB because of distribution concerns. At 200HP it was fine though.
Looking forward to updates when you get it running and sorted out. Mine is turning some 7.30's 1/8mi at right at 100MPH. With 3.50 gears and a 5 speed it is somewhat difficult to launch with mid 1.60's being the best. You should have a lot better launch with auto. Keep up the good work. I know you have to be itching by now...
BTW what gear ratio are you running? I looked back through the thread and didn't see it. I have been considering going to a 3.90 set to improve my 60'. Problem in the 1/8th is crossing in 3rd gear. I could go a lot deeper if I weren't concerned with keeping it a daily driver.
Last edited by antman89iroc; 09-20-2018 at 10:31 AM.
A long time coming for sure. Around 5 years now? Looks like you are doing a nice job and as others have stated (the obvious) is should run very well. I did a similar engine build Dart 414 with AFR 210's and a mild HR cam. It's a good combination for a daily driver that sees some strip time. I've beat the heck out of mine and it just keeps asking for more. You went a bit farther with the shaft rockers and some other things that should make it bullet proof. I run a lot of nitrous through mine and ended up making a custom spray bar for inside the intake. Jetting should be in the ~250-300 range with no issues so far. I ended up going with the spray bars in the plenum because I didn't like the front mount TB with a lot of nitrous in front of the TB because of distribution concerns. At 200HP it was fine though.
Looking forward to updates when you get it running and sorted out. Mine is turning some 7.30's 1/8mi at right at 100MPH. With 3.50 gears and a 5 speed it is somewhat difficult to launch with mid 1.60's being the best. You should have a lot better launch with auto. Keep up the good work. I know you have to be itching by now...
BTW what gear ratio are you running? I looked back through the thread and didn't see it. I have been considering going to a 3.90 set to improve my 60'. Problem in the 1/8th is crossing in 3rd gear. I could go a lot deeper if I weren't concerned with keeping it a daily driver.
That's great you got everything running. I wish my car was a 5 speed now and that I kept the ac. It's been so long because I moved twice and had a close death in the family and lost total interest in everything for a good year and a half. I'm running 3.55 gears. I wanted a good street gear like I have in my mustang which is 3.55. I am still going to put nitrous on it but I wanted the monoblade unit that nitrous outlet used to make. It had no bars. But they dont make it anymore and a one off they quoted me $1000. So forget that. I may just do a dry system. I upped the injectors enough to do it. I calculated I needed a 44lb injector on motor but I opted for the Holley 66lb units. Last thing I need is the dominator ECU to control the trans. Exhaust is going to be a trip because with all the crap now under ththe car im going to lose some ground clearance. I'm at the point I want the car done. I ended up getting screwed by the first chassis guy who did my cage in 16. We had laid out plans to get the car done. Then he just up and stopped taking my calls and focused on his more expensive projects. So I had a hard time finding new fab shop for a while.Got a good guy now who is on the level and does immaculate work. I know this is an obvious question. But compared to what you had before. How's the street tq off the nitrous? Do you have any videos of it running or idling? What did you do for exhaust? Headers and back? What driveshaft? Thanks for checking in. When you do these swaps there are not many others to pick there brains on setups.
I understand wanting feedback from similar builds, no problem here. It's a lot to unpack so here goes...
For me keeping the AC was never in question. Just got back from lunch. It's 90+* and going through drive thru it's a must. You gotta have a good radiator regardless. I went with a DeWitt double core and LS fans. Works great.
If you are worried about low end torque- Fa-gidda-bout-it!
Here's a dyno comparison of my mildly built TPI 350. 9.5:1 212/218 cam auto. With the current motor and 5 speed.
As you can see, if you plot the 350's torque back to where the 414 starts it's obvious the big motor spanks the 350 everywhere above ~1000RPM. The 350 was set up for torque with the cam, intake and headers. It was tuned and ran great. The 414 motor will cruise at 12-1500RPM and can lug down to 7-800RPM no problem. It cruises very nicely at 2000RPM.
I don't have any videos available right now but the 414 idles very good at 750-800 at 45MAP. That is around 16in/hg vacuum which works power brakes no problem. It has some lope but is pretty smooth. Now your combo is probably one step "hotter" regarding cam, head size and you're running auto. I don't really think you have any worries about idle, torque or vacuum. My first cam was 236/242 and idled at ~50-55MAP which was around 14in/hg if I remember right.
I run hooker shorty headers and made my own exhaust. I routed both head pipes straight back just past the trans then to a merge collector and into a single 3 1/2 pipe. Up over the rear end in the stock route and to a transverse mounted Dynomax Ultraflow in the stock location and out the drivers side. It's tucked up pretty tight and has almost as much clearance as stock. Maybe a tad loud for everyday but sound awesome under power.
The rear is a Moser 9" with the big adaptor in front of the 3rd member. I have a home made adjustable tubular torque arm with the stock "W" shaped end in the stock torque arm mount on the trans. It does have an urethane bushing but is otherwise stock. The TKO trans has provision for the mount so that made it easy. I don't have a cage but made sub frame connectors and boxed in my LCA's. The drive shaft is a stock yoke which has been re-tubed 3/4" longer. The 9" may or may not need a longer shaft depending on which pinion support (probably Daytona) and yoke. I used a 1330 "Ford" short yoke. Only because it used the u-joint size "stock" for my car (original 9 bolt). Most people end up with a 1350 yoke since it's more common. You can get ANY conversion joint even if they don't make one you can swap crosses and caps til you get what you need. Only after you have the trans in the car with it's yoke will you know what length shaft you need. If you had a 700R before with a 9 bolt you may not NEED a different length. The next one I have made will likely come from Driveshaft Solutions. They have good prices for steel shafts with almost any yoke/joint combination you want. I like to have the trans yoke up tight (1/2-3/4") when at ride height. Just make sure it never bottoms out.
There are times I wish I had stayed auto like when I at the strip but for the most part the 5 speed is great for me. I started with a stock T5 conversion and after I blew it up the TKO 600 was a pretty straightforward conversion. I've been through about every clutch brand and ended up with a McLeod RXT twin disc. It the only one to hold up but reveals it's race heritage from time to time. But this all started before around 2010 and the 700R's weren't build to hold up back then. I think the 4l60 is probably going to be a good choice if it's built properly. From what I have read so far, looks like you are doing what you need to get it right.
Nitrous, it's the street-to-strip equalizer. It's tough to build a really fast drag car that one can live with on the street. Don't be lured by Street Outlaws, those aren't what I call STREETABLE cars. Loosely street legal? Maybe depending on the juris diction but you probably won't want to drive it over 50 miles anywhere. With nitrous you can cam it to be a decent street motor and still make a ton of power when needed. I prefer the wet system but with front TB intakes there is some concern with distribution. The dry system may be the best choice once you get it sorted out. The only down side is having to run such a big injector which can be a bitch for idling and transitions.
In regard to sorting it out. You have a lot going on with new systems for the motor and trans as well as suspension/rear end etc. Be patient. I have been tuning my motor for over a year. Don't get me wrong it ran damn good from day one. But for a street monster it's the balance that takes the most time. Easier to get it to "idle and drive" great but not make the most power. Max power is probably the easiest but idle and part throttle may suffer. Then the seasons change and throw your "near perfect" tune out the window. Just be prepared to keep working back and forth with it. Even now that I basically have it sorted out I still tweek things almost weekly. I learn something new and give it a try. Keep good records too, I've probably started over a few dozen times and knowing where I have been is fundamental.
Last edited by antman89iroc; 09-20-2018 at 02:42 PM.
Oh, and one other point. This is a true street car that's FUN to drive. I looks like a stock IROC with a set of wheels on it. Inside looks stock. Under the hood, most people think it's basically stock. It behaves well in traffic and is perfectly fine running down the highway. I drive it every day it's not raining or up on jack stands for some reason. It gets a lot of complements at gas stations and even a little respect at the strip. Building a big inch street motor is probably one of the best decisions I made. It still gets close to 20MPG on the highway and ~15MPG in town if I act right. It handles great and rides comfortably. Most important, it fits me. Both physically and personality wise. Hell if I still had the long hair I had in the 80's you'd think you were in a time warp!
Note, I tried to describe the long in the back hair do I had in the 80's but TGO kept ****ing it out. Starts with "M" and rhymes with bullet. Didn't know that was a bad word.
Last edited by antman89iroc; 09-20-2018 at 03:01 PM.
Just and update since I have not updated this in a while. Motor is all wired in and the Holley Cnp is in. It's quite a process to upgrade from the HP to the Dominator. Didnt think the wiring would be to bad but it was quite involved. Intensive on my part because I wanted it to not look like a spaghetti mess. Pretty sure there are more wires in the bay than stock now. One of the biggest hurdles is doing one off stuff. Like mounting the coils. If I was ls I could just buy a bracket and mount them. This had to be laser cut and custom made to fit my engine and fit on top of the perimeter bolt covers. Fab guy is one of the best I have used over the years.
Some things that I did , did draw out the end result. Some of the biggest changes were to wiring. Everything I could upgrade to Gxl or Txl was upgraded. Power and grounds were seized up if they were borderline imo. Trunk mounting cables were upgraded to 1/0 power and grounds from CE auto electrical supply. Great place to deal with and the big gauge wiring was alot more flexable than the cable it replaced. Grounds were made a priority. All 1/0. 1 off each side of front of motor. 1 tieing the heads together in the back of motor. And of course the in trunck battery was upgraded and grounded to chassis. Finally bought a decent multimeter and went over all my ground ohms to actually see what I had. Can admit in the past I never thought to use the star washers. Well found out quick not using them there was a difference compared to sing them to get the best ground. Edit on the factory Alt. I have a 170 Amp Mechman on order. It was built and shipped. One state over the FedEx truck got into an accident and it was lost in shipment. 3 week build time on these. So with the claims and another build time hopefully will see it soon.
I was using the original GM relays for the factory fans running them in series. Had to totally eliminate that mess and upgrade to one big relay to handle the amps. I liked the relay so much I bought another one to run the cnp setup. Redid the whole power distribution setup which is now housed in the old front battery area.
TE connectivity relays. V23132-A2001-B200 130 Amp overkill. I know they make a cheaper unit with spade hookups. This model comes with a weather pack for the activation 12 volt key on and ground. I have these 2 relays triggered by output ground from the Dominator. Basically as bullet proof a relay as you could use in automotive applications.
If anyone's interested in the wire loom. Its acquired from Wirecare. F6 woven. They sell also pictured the heat shrink ends to finish it. It's a split loom and looks 10x better than the old plastic loom it replaced. Very eas to work with.
Last thing to do is the exhaust and a driveshaft. Exhaust will be another issue. Going oval. I upgraded the SW collectors to 3 inch from 2.5 with v bands. I'm wanting to run oval dual 3 inch. But the tunnel will be the sticking point. I may do 2 to 1, 4-4.5 inch intermediate pipe then back to 2 in the rear. So tune is in the dominator. Will update soon again I hope.
what did you end up doing for a radiator? 2 row 3 row? aluminum?
how about motor mounts? its a dart shp block right? anything specific for that setup? rubber or poly?
is your battery in the rear in a sealed box like nhra requires? on/off kill switch at all?
Right now it's the original factory one. I used it on a 355 with a supercharger and it always ran cool. If I do upgrade it will be a Howe unit. Motor mounts are poly on a shp block.
Battery is in the trunk in a moroso box with shut off all NHRA legal and cuts the alt power as well.
Also the Alt was upgraded to a mechman 1 wire 140 amp idle ,170 total.All 1/0 from battery to alt. 1/0 from battery to power distribution. 1/0 from power distribution to starter. Multiple 1/0 grounds. Battery to chassis. Both heads grounded on back of block. 1 ground off each bank of heads to chassis in front of motor.
Everything is relayed and fused. Relays are over kill by a mile but they are all weather packed connection for the 12v turn on and ground. It's funny that this thread was replied to today. The car is going to the fab guy today after work. Full exhaust is getting done plus the intake pipe. We have been talking about how to do this. He is a top notch fab guy. He is going to use alot of oval pipe under the car and he want to make an X pipe in the system. Should sound very different. Either going to do 3 inch duals or duals x'd to a single 4 or 4.5 inch. We talked about using the biggest spintech 4 inch inch dual 3 out or 2 small bullet mufflers. We will see. This besides the driveshaft is the last thing left. I can fire the motor with no driveshaft. Was contemplating carbon fiber but I may just go with a nitrous dennys 3 inch. Figure about a week or so to get this done. It's late in the year here in MA so probably no road time. But I want to get it started just to see what pops up. I have a start tune in it. Tuner wrote it for me to get it started. Asked round about what rwhp and he told me that according to the fueling the tune says it needs 286lbs hr. He says to double the number to get round about rwhp.Will update when I stop in to check at the shop. Thanks
awesome. I'm excited to see the exhaust combination you go with! it will be totally custom, but it will help me (and others) down the road for exhaust pipe routing, so make sure to post photos!!
as for your driveshaft... I just got one from Denny's back in march of this year. I went with the 3" nitrous ready driveshaft with 1350 chrome-moly yoke. was told it will hold up to around 1,500 hp !! woah!
In December when my major engine project gets going, I may have some questions for ya about the battery relocation and wiring. I have read so much and talked to many people and am 99%sure I have the schematic right, but i'll double check then. I did plan on using 0/1 wire and extra grounds, so my setup will hopefully be similar to yours...especially if it works. I plan on doing the on/off switch like you have instead of a push/pull switch too. however, i'd like to build/install a tray/box inside the plastic spare-tire housing to retain as much trunk space as i can.
As for motor mounts, are they just simple 3rd gen poly mounts. From my research, there are no specific SHP mounts, so I am assuming an energy suspension or prothane set of poly mounts would bolt right up to the stock gm k-member and to the shp block. its as simple as that?
So. Big update and pic heavy. Just got the car back from the fab shop. Full exhaust and intake piping. First the intake . We went back and forth. Looked over hundreds on thirdgen intakes. Was about 90% going to go with a 4 inch piped over to where the battery was. Then at the last minute we brainstormed and I said why not dual 3 inch, with pipes into fenders and drawing air under battery tray and passenger side tray? Yup that works. Was going to polish it but just going to powder coat it at a later date matte black
Had to cut and reweld the water neck to go through the belt routing vs over like stock
Filters are K&N 6 inch base, 5 inch long. So going to powdercoat this in after I get the motor fired.
Next is the exhaust. We went back and forth on this as well. Wanted to do dual 3 inch. But to do it right it would be tight plus the extra weight. Wanted to do dual oval pipe as well. That gets expensive. Wanted to include an X pipe. Could only to that on true dual. So we decided the best route would be a little of both for ground clearance and flow. Plus a somewhat quiet muffler. Which we used a spintech 364, 4 inch in dual 3 out. So here goes. Big plus was we used all v bands in the system to facilitate easy removal in 3 section if need be.
Went with the Spintech 364SC 4 inch in dual 3 out. Did factory type hidden tips.
So the sizing on the exhaust is dual 3 inch oval into a y transition to 4 inch exhaust. Should Be plenty for what I have and what I'm doing the ground clearance is amazing on the mid pipe. Here is a pic from the side it sits about same height as subframes.
Barely see it peaking out behind the subframe connectors. Its tight as can be even over cross member.
To facilitate easy removel there are 3 sections. 2 header connections and 4 inch connection. That comes out in one section.
Then you have the connection over axel.
Then midpipe comes out. Then muffler and tips you remove all in one piece. Just disconnect the rubber mounts he added and we reused the factory ones in the rear.
We added two other mounts in the system as well.
This one at tq arm crossmember. Then this one in the rear over axel
More pics
Bonus was he polished all the pipes and the muffler came polished. So that's all she wrote next step is to start it. Be in the next week or so.
07-10-2015, 06:02 AM
