loopy

iTrader: (1)

I ordered a proform timing cover and some Taylor Spiro Leads and various gaskets as well as some heat protectors and wire separators today from Summit.


I have the Scat rods on their way as well. I went with the Pro Stock version rather than the stock replacements as they are lighter and rated to higher (500)HP. You never know what will happen in the future so I thought I would hedge my bets.


Price difference was only $30




I have asked the engine shop to quote for the next stage of my job with re-assembly to short block stage before I will take it into them. I don't want any more pricing surprises.

skinny z

Wasn't sure if you were into the carb hat approach or not.
The gasket is listed as a Clevite product but as you'll see, it's the Victor Reinz 5746.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cle-5746

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the K&N Carb hat is pretty cool. I like the black ribbed look and the tubing and intake is very OEM looking.


You know, I looked through nearly all Summits head gaskets and couldn't find that one. I even searched for it by name and number. I don't know what I did wrong LOL


I'm starting to get excited about the engine now, we/re nearly on the final lap

skinny z

Hope you didn't miss the order and lost the chance to get the gaskets shipped at the same time.





Good call. Not only on the request for quote but for the short block assembly.
I've assembled short blocks in the past. Hell, I even went to college to learn how to do it (among other things). However, these days, I'll give it to my builder. I don't have access to an assortment of bearings should the need arise to adjust the machined clearences. Nor do I have a rod bolt stretch gauge, which I would assume your shop has. Back in the day, I'd simply torque the rod bolts and go merrily on my way. These days, I'm not as comfortable with that approach. So off to the shop my shortblocks go.
The top end is easy work. Especially on an engine stand.

skinny z

Nearly being the operative word there.
I'll be interested in how your valve train geometry works out. I didn't have an issue with the combination of parts that you're assembling. Your lifters, being OEM have a different seat height than my retro rollers so that'll enter in the picture. Other than that, and your blocks deck height, we're pretty close.
Now with my RHS heads and Comp short travel lifters, things got a little more interesting. In order to achieve the smallest sweep possible on the valve tip, the push rod length became such that the pattern was almost off the edge of the valve (towards the exhaust side). I was forced into getting a new rocker that had the hole for the stud offset .050" towards the intake. This brought everything into line. Nice small contact area and practically dead on centre.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Umm, LOL, Yeah I did actually, not that it really matters, there'll be more orders







I'm the same as you, don't have the necessary stuff for shortblock assembly and the only engine I ever built from scratch didn't live long!


I have the stand and don't want to pay the shop for mucking around checking for push rod lengths etc, I prefer to do all that myself anyways.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Talking about lifters, David Vizard says the OEM lifter can have issues with collapse (page 102) and suggests that they be shimmed internally so they only have 10 thou of internal movement. Would you know where to get the necessary shims? or do I even need to worry at this point?

skinny z

I've had first hand experience with the OEM lifter problem although some people aren't able to admit the problem exists. This was in a high rpm application where shifts points were routinely at 7000 rpm. We found that at the end of a run, the lifter clatter was very noticable. It would quiet down after a minute or so. Changing only the lifters netted a couple of tenths and several MPH in the quarter.
In your case however, with RPMs less than 6000 rpm, as your cam makes peak power in around 5600-5700, the stock lifters should be fine. The situation is exacebated with a heavy valve train. I don't recall what you have for valve springs. Is it the Alex springs and famous "ghetto grind" retainers.?
I know the Comp Beehive spring with it's small and very light retainer does a good job of keeping the valve train under control through higher RPMs albeit with lesser spring pressure.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

I have the Alex's set with his retainers. I cant comment as to weight difference between these and the comp springs.


I thought long and hard about which to choose and I went with Alex's as to be honest, 99% of my usage will be daily driving and I didn't feel I could justify the extra expense of the comp setup with this in mind.

skinny z

I'm sure you'll be fine.
Be forewarned though, with your combination of engine parts and the 3.73 gear set combined with the extra low 700R4 1st gear, you'll get to 6 grand in a hurry! You might be wise to invest in a rev limiter...

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Funny you should say that, I have been looking at the MSD Streetfire ignition box with rev limiter as even with the std 305 it is very quick to rev out in 1st, that's one of the reasons I brought the B&M Megashifter as I coundnt control the shift from 1st to 2nd with the standard shifter. Now I only have to hit the shifter for it to change. Well worth the $250 investment.






OK good news!!


I have secured the CAI intake. Jeff is sending it Monday. $160 shipped to Portland then I will have it forwarded here so should see it in a couple of weeks.


Excellent

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Ok, heres that photo I promised of the machining marks that the engine guy was worried about the 1094 gaskets sealing.

skinny z

While an HEI with an upgraded module will handle just about anything we could throw at it I still went with the MSD6AL ignition and a stand alone coil. Rev limiter included. I also have a small cap distributor more because I find the HEI to be too bulky than anything else.
I'll agree that a good shifter is mandantory. I've a Hurst Dual Gate. It works well enough with a simple push to engage the next gear up however it's more a gated style shifter and I'm after a true ratchet style for both up and down shifting. It's on my list.



That was quick!

Hmm.
On the gasket is says:

"IMPORTANT: Surface finish of the head and block is critical an must be 55 ra (60 RMS) or smoother"
"If your surface finish is rougher than 55ra or has gouges in the surface, a sealer must be applied to both sides of the gasket"

I suppose would need to use a Surface Roughness tester that measures Ra to get an accurate result. Then again, maybe a trained eye can some something that's seriously out of spec. I couldn't tell yolu from looking at the picture.

Then again there appears to be option of using the copper sealing spray. I think it was Nightrider that has personal experience with that.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Yep skinny, it was me. I ran the 1094's with copper sealant spray on some pretty rough factory heads/decks in the past and never had any issues. Of course I wouldn't put
boost, nitrous or 200+ psi cranking compression on one like that.


Loopy... Sorry man, but I picture just is not good enough to tell. My go to "gauge" or "tester" is a fingernail. Drag your fingernail across the surface. If your catching on or feels anything then it's not smooth enough.

Then use a steel straight edge across and diagonal on head and measure between it and head for high/low spots.

Again I have used the 1094's with the copper spray even on pitted heads and it worked, but I do not recommend doing that

loopy

iTrader: (1)

My Mega-shifter is a gated shifter from Park through to Drive, then ratchets through all forward gears both down and up. You cant go from Drive to 1st or vis versa without ratcheting. To get to reverse or Park from forward gears it has to be in drive 1st then use the gated function.


I like it a lot.



Here in Blenheim we only have the Mark 1 human eyeball gauge. were lucky to even have an engine shop LOL. I'm sure he only looked at it.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

To be honest, with a fingernail test, they can be felt but the nail runs across them quite smoothly.


It doesn't really matter, I don't mind decking the block and using thicker gaskets.


If anything, doing it the way the shop wants to gives me a little more come-back later cause at least I followed his advice.

skinny z

I think 200 psi cranking pressure is the minimum spec for a decent street engine however it can prove to be difficult to manage under all "street" conditions. It would also think, under most conditions, would demand premium fuel.

skinny z

There's no discounting the experienced human eyeball.

skinny z

What IS the plan anyway? I guess at this point you don't have an accurate (or any) piston to deck value other than with the OEM rods. Mock things up. Get an deck value? Decide from there.
I'm hoping that more machining isn't in the forecast however pending the results, I suppose a decision will have to be made...

loopy

iTrader: (1)

The plan is....

Size and fit new rods,mock up, measure deck height, machine block as necessary to achieve correct comp ratio with .028 gaskets.

I will ask him to aim for SCR of no more than 9.8 which should give a DCR in the low 8's or high 7's. I will confirm that beforehand using the calculator I downloaded as the heads CC'D at 62cc.


The block/ heads combination as they stand now according to the shop is 9.8:1 SCR (Chevrolet advertise them as 9.4 so maybe the engines shop calcs are a bit optimistic). The shops figures were based on a deck height of .025"


I only intend to change it by machining the block to compensate for the xtra gasket thickness. I do intend to rerun the numbers to ensure the compression hasn't gone too high, but, I have a safety net built in, if I have to I can run it on 96 instead of the local 91 it just requires driving totown to fuel up, no biggie.

skinny z

Regular grade fuel has been the target all along.
9.8 SCR and a low 8 DCR I feel is premium fuel territory provided you don't hedge on the timing curve and can keep the temperatures involved in check. That may NOT be the case however, that's my thinking (and experience). You're right on the edge.
As far as machining goes, if you would rather spend the money on decking the block so as not to risk using a shim gasket, that's your call. It's been demonstrated that the shim gasket works in less than optimal conditions (witness Nights build) however your potential for building compression pressures appoaching 200 psi (although at nearly 8:1 DCR I produce 185 psi) may compromise the shim gasket integrity (also witness Nights comments).
I'm waiting your mock up results...

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Its not that I would rather spend money decking the block, I would rather not, but, the local engine guy has advised me not to risk using those gaskets with what he considers to be rough machining on the heads and block and should I ignore that advice and end up with leaking gaskets it will be my fault, no comeback. I could have heads and block very lightly skimmed but cost of that is $320. Instead I have decided to machine just the block ($160) and use a thicker, more forgiving gasket.


I can only guess at this point as to the results vis a vis SCR,DCR as I am awaiting delivery of my rods and the results of the mock-up of the block.


I have trouble accepting his 9.8:1 comp figure as I don't believe that the 1cc difference between my head CC and his would account for that difference, so until he can mock up the engine and give me a definitive number that I can then run through the calculator myself, I find I am once again guessing LOL.


We were looking at a DCR of 7.4:1 based on my measurements so would 1cc difference in chamber volume make much difference?


Heres the original numbers again




Bore: 4.00
Stroke: 3.48
Chamber volume: 63cc
Gasket: .015" x 4.100" (FelPro)
Piston to deck clearence. 0.00"
Piston dish. 21cc
DCR with the 270: 7.58:1
DCR with the 276: 7.42:1


Only difference now is chamber volume is now 62CC






EDIT. Using his numbers I get 9.29 SCR and 7.49 DCR, not the 9.8 he calculated (using my measured deck/dish etc volume)
If I go with (advertised) .025 Deck and 12cc dish I get 9.68 and 7.61 respectively.

skinny z

Understood.




Based on that I get 7.42:1
With 62 cc it's 7.49:1
Deck it to .014 and use a .026" x 4.100" gasket with 62 cc and assume a 12cc dish (Fast 355 referenced that earlier regarding his stock Vortec engine).
Result 7.79:1 DCR, 9.68:1 SCR. All values use the 276 cam.
I'm liking it but the prospect of using (my local) regular fuel would be questionable.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Sweet. If you like it I'm happy


If our fuel is too low octane at 91, that's all good, I'll just have to use 96 from town.


I'll just be happy to finally have it going.


I'm not too worried about cooling as I have brought a 3 row aluminium radiator and computer controlled electric water pump and cooling fans set up

skinny z

I can say that because what you'll end up with will be very similar to what I enjoyed for several seasons. I beat on that engine, raced it, drove it cross country (have you seen how big Canada is?) overheated it and it wasn't until it was more than 100 000 kms and 7 years later did it finally succumb to my abuse.
I re-learned a lot along the way (Automotive Technology was my first trade when I was fresh out of college). Ignition timing and all it's interations, carb tuning, transmissions ...It's a long learning curve.
Looking forward to your build.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

7 years is pretty impressive mate.

I hope mine goes so well

skinny z

That's a seasonal 7 years I should mention. Unlike your country, THIS country is bound by snow and ice for 4 months a year. There have been times when I've been driving right up to the first officical day of winter and been back on the road the first day of spring but those times are rare. Where I moved, (from southern Ontario to northern Alberta) the winter driving season lasts 6 months. I parked the car in at the start of November and am guessing that it won't see the road again until the middle of April. It's not so much the snow and ice (although winter driving is mandantory in all parts of the country except the west coast), it's the corrosive crap they put ON the roads to melt the ice that has me keeping my ride parked in the garage for almost half the year. That said, you can see how much I drive when I AM out there.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

I hadn't though of that. I guess that means some fairly intensive driving to cover that much mileage in that period.
I cant imagine what it must be like to be snowed in 6 months of the year, I'd go nuts I think. Even in mid-winter here the water is still warm enough to swim albeit a little cold.

skinny z

I wouldn't say "snowed in" exactly but given the unpredictable conditions, I can't say you'd take your sports car out for a spirited stroll in mid-winter. However if your sports car is an all wheel drive Subaru WRX with a 500hp turbo and some serious winter tires, then all bets are off. Water here, in the winter months is generally frozen.
That said, my research and investigating into your build has rekindled my spirit into possibly accelerating my own buggy into the next iteration. I've a couple of avenues into stepping up from the daily driver category into something a little more race orientated while still keeping the carbureted daily driver (somewhat) approach. I'm not sure what the next season might bring however I DO know that I'll have to sort out what I've got at my new residence and go from there.
In the meantime, I'm STILL looking forward to how your project comes together and the results.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

LOL don't go too far away, I still have a million questions for you as we get further into it !


When you do start your next iteration of your car I would love to see a build thread.

skinny z

Questions that we should be able to answer given the depth of knowledge here at 3rd gen.
Once you get into specific questions regarding details, it wouldn't hurt for you to add a new thread. What happens with threads like these is that after 230+ posts or so, no one bothers to read through and declines to comment. They tend to become stale with no fresh input.
As for my own thread regarding my next step, that'll be a long process.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Received the rods yesterday so just waiting for a price b4 getting it assembled.

Price for freighting the carb hat and ducting was $177 Ouch! !!@

skinny z

Ouch indeed. Tell me that included the price of the parts too.

Once your engine is in pieces, see if you can't get a piston dish volume value. If nothing else, I'd like to have it for my records.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Wish I could $160 US for the Hat etc and $178NZ for freight


Oh well, hope it fits!

feilds

Loopy how is your engine build going? Just read your post about the surface finish on heads etc. the vortec heads that I bought came straight off a crate motor like yours from a jet boat outfit down in Queenstown. They were brand new and unused and looked exactly like your pic. I was a little surprised by the machini g marks too! However I did just what u intend too. Had the deck machines 15 thou and used felpro blue gasket and two years latter still going strong.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Hi fields

I got a quote for $675 for machine and assemble the short block and just have to disassemble it and drop it off to them.

Things have been a bit hectic here with harvest coming up so haven't had a lot of time to sort stuff out.

We just brought ourselves a Corvette 1993 LT1 powered C4 as well so that has soaked up the finances.

Won't be too far away though, probable fit it after harvest in about 6 weeks time

skinny z

Holy smokes!!

loopy

iTrader: (1)

lol hi skinny.

I couldn't resist it. It's a Japanese import that used to belong to a luxury car hire company and only has 93000 km on it. It's a real tidy 1 owner car and was going ( by NZ standards ) very cheap. $13k

I just had to have it. We should be in possession of it in a week or so

skinny z

Very curious as to how this will all work out for you.
With any luck, 6 weeks will be our onset of spring here. Driving season follows...then fate will determine if I will be building an engine too. Or at least the top half of one.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Me curious too.


It has been an interesting process and I have learnt heaps from it.

skinny z

And it's only just begun...
And for what it's worth, you owe it to yourself to explore and research any measure of advice I might dispense. I was just called out in another thread regarding my position on cranking compression and the effect of the installed cam centre-line. While I know my theory, I had my facts reversed (brain fart) and came across like a complete fool. So far, I know that what's been discussed here has been accurate and largely based on my own personal experiences.
That said, its "caveat emptor".

loopy

iTrader: (1)

All good mate, I read up on any piece of advice I am given, not just to check it but also to gain a deeper understanding on the subject.

As for "caveat emptor" lol ,I haven't paid for any advice yet so on my head be it lol.

skinny z

Well said.
I might add, that once you have all your parts assembled and are ready to go, you start a new thread. It's been said that once a thread reaches a "critical mass" that additional input from fresh sources is unlikely. You may inspire new and more fertile minds when you get down to the final assembly, tuning and the what if scenarios.
I'll be waiting.
Good luck.
By the way, please post up on your new Vette experiences. I've always had a soft spot for that grand American marque.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Well I've had a bit of time behind the wheel and I'm impressed. What a awesome car!
300 ish HP and on a recent trip 30.3 miles per gallon!

skinny z

Wow! New Zealand does use an Imperial gallon doesn't it? About 4.5 litres.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Yes


I didn't believe it at 1st so confirmed the mileage with google maps. Its correct.

skinny z

As I get older...I'm getting as much satisfaction with the power and fuel economy of my ride. I've made deliberate choices: small runner heads, smallish cam (with as much lift as possible), overdrive automatic with a lock up converter, that arguably take away from the outright racing results. Being able to go 600 kms/370 miles on a tank of fuel while cruising the highway, gives a little back. After all, I do have family and property 3500 kms from where I'm living now.
That said, depending on how I fare at my new home track and the higher elevation (2300' above seal level as opposed to 600'), I may have to step up my game to reach my racing goal. Low 12's at the very least (personal best of 12.6) but I think that's a stretch in the current trim.
There might a supercharger in my future...

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Supercharger lol go for it! Traction may become an issue one would think.

My plan for the Camaro will be to have it drive and handle "sports car ish"

There is a drag racing club about 1 1/2hrs drive from here that uses an airport runway so will be

definitely into trying that.

Realistically though, 99.9% of its use will be open road so economy will be a factor. Especially

considering how good the corvettes economy is. I'm rather hopeful that given your experiences and

similar engine that I may hit you for advice on tuning and exhaust when the time comes.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Well believe it or not Kevin I have finally stripped the engine down and will have it at the shop tomorrow morning.





I should get it back in a couple of weeks.


Still a few things to buy before installation:
Fuel pump, regulator, pushrods, plus oils filters etc and no doubt a hundred things I have missed.
( and a lot of work on the car itself ), so it wont be happening very quickly.


Still, exciting stuff seeing some progress after all this time!

skinny z

It has been a while hasn't it.
I'll be waiting. Perhaps by the time you're ready to assemble the top end, I'll be doing the same with mine. The heads are slated to be in the machine shop in a monht or so to have the guides done. Then I'll re-visit the valvetrain geometry to be sure what I did a couple of years ago is correct. I'm sure it is as I've put over 30 000 hard kilometres on this engine since that time and the performance is still the same. Just got back from the first test and tune of the season and my corrected ET and MPH (at my new home track) are what the corrected results were from my old track a couple of years back (although I am struggling with the higher elevation here and lack of traction in the cold weather. 3 degrees C.)
Keep us posted.