stephenscamaro

I've had several Camaro's and this will be my first attempt at a swap. Not sure if a good walk through with photo's would be worth it to this board.

Here is what I have so far:

*Laughed, cried and smiled at Kurt & Derek's sticky

*One fantastic, garage kept, grandmother owned and only driven to church on Sundays, 1988 Camaro Berlinetta in white. (slung a rod)

*Set of 1969 Camel hump heads for inspiration.

*Worn out 5.7 block, crank rods and pistons.

*An overabundance (almost gluttonous) of spare time.

*And the most important, a small and limited budget


Any thoughts?

BeyondZ28_85

I'm definitely interested to hear how this all goes for you! I think you might have to beef up the front suspension, but I'll let the guys who know more than me advise you on all that. I'm just curious what all this entails. When I was looking for a 3rd gen, I considered some 6 cylinders to do a V8 swap into, but didn't want to have to worry about if it had different spring rates, sway arms, etc. Then I finally lucked into finding a bargain on a Z28. I knew all iron sbc are about the same weight, bolt pattern, etc. Let me know what all you actually run into since I let fear and lack of knowledge dissuade me.

stephenscamaro

Just started pulling the 2.8 yesterday with my kids. They are having a blast helping too. I don't have a donor car, and don't on getting one (not enough space). I do plan on this taking a looonnnnnggg time, since it is a hobby and want everything out to come out perfect.

Today I pick up my worn out motor from the junkyard and drop it off at the machine shop. Bored, line bore, new crank, rods, pistons, acid bath, new plugs, new cam bearings and balancing. Plan on staying in the 10:1 CR range.

No idea what I will do for the trans. I have the option of a 400 turbo for $500 rebuilt, but it doesn't have the tail shaft housing for the torsion bar. Stuck in though process on this one, more homework and price checking. Possibly go with the 700r4 and put a toggle switch in for the lock up. Again, thinking.

Heck, I don't even know what color to paint it and it is not staying ugly flat white.

Any thoughts?

BeyondZ28_85

I think it's awesome you're planning on building it with your kids. All the time I spent wrenching with my dad definitely gave me the bug. I plan to pass it along to my son and daughter if either of them are interested. Alright, I'll slow my role a little before I thread jack too much. I'll stay tuned and chime in if I have some good advice. Best of luck on the build!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Can we assume the new crank has 3.75" stroke?

stephenscamaro

Great question...what would be my options?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There are many 383 rotating kit options. Since you said "new crank, rods, pistons", it doesn't cost any more to do a 383 kit as it does a 355 kit.

BeyondZ28_85

What he said with the only exception being if the block needs to be massaged a little for clearance with the larger crank. With all the other work you're having done they may not charge for this or they might charge $100. All depends on the shop.

stephenscamaro

I have decided, in light of this advice, I'm building the 383. Done a little research though and have a few questions.

* Should I go with 6 inch rods and short pistons?

* Being the engine 2 bolt mains, will this be strong enough (remember, no stall and street driven)

*One peice RMS, I see scat has cast and forged sets for these applications, are they worth it?

BeyondZ28_85

There are advantages of the longer rods like more dwell time at TDC and less arc movement. There are disadvantages if the rings are relocated improperly. It's been awhile since I looked at the kits from Scat but I believe the long rod combos had less weight. This is because it doesn't take as much material to make the rod longer as it can to have more piston. (I.E. The pistons weigh less in the long rod combo by more than the rods weigh more.) You might do some reading on sites like onallcylinders.com and superchevy.com to better explain this than I can. From everything I've seen, you're money ahead to get the rotating kit than to piece it together yourself. As for brand selection, I've tried to give American companies my business, and I've heard some say that Scat is cheap Chinese steel (or cast iron) that doesn't hold up. I'll let you read some reviews and decide on that. As for the 2-bolt main motor, I prefer the extra comfort a 4 bolt main 350 offers. If you build a motor for lower rpm torque (which luckily the 383 lends itself to), you should be okay with the 2 bolt main motor and a cast crank. If you never turn more than 5500 rpm, I'd say you'll be fine. I wouldn't sweat the occasional pull to 6000 rpm before shifting if you took it to the track. I do believe in 4340 forged I-beam rods and forged aluminum pistons in all of my applications for peace of mind. You could certainly build something in the 350-400 hp/tq range that's reliable with that. If you want more now or room to make more power later, I'd go the route of forged everything to save costs in the future. That's why I went with forged parts in my block and flat top pistons to give me 10.0:1 compression with open chamber (76cc heads.) If I step up to aftermarket 64cc heads and an aftermarket block later, I've got the bottom end to handle the compression and rpm I'd be looking at later. I should note that my 400 small block is different from a 350 in a lot of ways. I wouldn't be afraid to spin an OEM 4 bolt main 350 block with forged crank, rods, and pistons to 7000 rpm while my OEM 400 block isn't as strong so I won't rev it past 6000 (I consider 5500 to be safe). So I guess a little bit more info on future goals and the today's budget would help me give you more info.

Uppersub

Found a pretty good YouTube video series by myvintageiron7 on a 383 build. This is the first one in the series.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

True. But a small price to pay for the extra 28 cubic inches, and the enhanced torque of the longer stroke. And it isn't work you HAVE to pay a machine shop for.

2-bolt mains should be fine for a street-driven car. The alternative would be to get splayed-bolt main caps and machine the block for them (drill & tap the outer bolt holes, align-hone - this does have to be done by a machine shop). 2-bolt blocks modified this way are actually stronger than factory 4-bolt blocks.

stephenscamaro

Ok, I'm back.


Gentlemen, thank you for the advice.


Here is the update:


Block is at the machine shop, but I am only boring it .03 over. Deck looked great actually, leaving it a .025 because of my head selection, which is where I need help from you guys with.


I went with aluminum heads, cheapo FloTechs. 205cc/64cc chambers, 2.02/1.60. Flat top pistons 6.6cc valve relief, .041 gasket/4.166 gasket bore/ and standard deck height put me at 10.22 to 1 compression ratio from the calculator. Will this work on pump gas? I have read a lot on the internet and it is kinda wishy washy. I'm not going to use a knock sensor, remember it's carbed old fashion. I want the most bang for my buck but I don't want to fuel up at the local airport with the expensive 101 or 111.


Also, the shop is recommending that I stick with 5.7 rods, since I am going forged. He said that I will get a really loud cold piston slap and that I should just stay with hyper pistons, short rods since it will never see the strip, only cruising and the occasional haul butt from the red-light.




I'm tossing some old Camel hump iron heads. anyone want them?

stephenscamaro

As far as beefing up the front suspension, a co worker suggested deflating some footballs, slip them into the front springs then re-inflate them. Odd, but really? could it work?

BeyondZ28_85

Should be fine for pump gas. You'll have to run 93 and it will run better with higher octane, but you're ok to 10.5:1 with aluminum heads. Avoid running it too lean, and don't over do your timing. Should run pretty strong. I'd be interested in those camel humps depending on the price/shipping.

stephenscamaro

OK here is where I need pro advice

I just got back from the machine shop. Had it bored 30, stroker grind job, new cam bearings and plugs, hod dipped and checked, magnaflux?! is that right?

I purchased a set of aluminum heads, 2.02/1.60, 64cc chamber and 205cc intake, angled plugs. I got a little flak from the shop, he said that these are big heads?! And I would need to deck the block to .000 or it wouldn't run "right" and to expect 10/10.5 to 1 compression ration. He recommends 5.7 rods, flat top pistons and the deck job. Does this sound right? Or is he selling a deck job? He said if I went with these heads and the combo he is recommending that it would be one hot little engine.

Something else about quench~ off to google now!

BeyondZ28_85

Your heads are designed to flow well. Those large intake runners are designed to flow at higher rpm which might kill some low end torque. Smaller ports increase the velocity of air/fuel (a/f) at lower rpm. The ports each supply a/f to a cylinder at a rate based on the volume of the cylinder x rpm/2 since it is a 4 stroke. This number is the amount it takes to fill the cylinder; however, it's also effected by the restriction of flow past the valve at the lifts it sees from the rocker arm magnification of the cam lobes. If the runner is too large, you risk losing velocity of a/f moving through it at low rpm. That's why an engine is a combination of parts that need to be matched to the rpm range it will operate in and displacement. When you start talking about decking the block for better quench, it's because the piston is "in the hole." To break it down better, think about what the inside of the chamber looks like when the piston is at top dead center. You have a volume that is what creates the compression ratio. It's the ratio of volume inside the cylinder when the piston is at bottom dead center as compared to the volume at top dead center. Your piston shape, gasket thickness, and combustion chamber size all play a role in that. More compression creates more efficiency and power. This is because it changes the rate that the fuel deflagrates (burns.) This is accurate because the gasoline and air doesn't actually detonate. Detonation vs deflagration are chemistry terms that differ because of the rate of reaction. So within the cylinder, you don't have an instaneous reaction of the fuel exploding. Instead you have a flame front. This is where quench comes in to play so much. While decking the block increases the compression ratio, it does more for the way the flame front travels. Think about a line of gunpowder. If you light it in the middle, it will travel from the center outward, and the reaction will be finished in about half the time compared to if you lit it at one end. Without going into too much detail on every detail, changing the shape of the chamber will change the rate the reaction takes place. Hopefully this helps. Feel free to ask questions about anything I was unclear on.

BeyondZ28_85

Almost forgot to be clear on your actual head selection. I don't think your runners are so large that you'll lose a lot of low end performance. I think decking the block will give you a better performing engine, but whether the $$ is worth the hp is up to you.

stephenscamaro

Thanks for the reply, it clarifies things a little better. Now I am diving into the complicated and complex world of CAMSHAFT selection. Is there any advice or warnings I should heed before I endeavor into this magical realm?

BeyondZ28_85

If you want the best cam for your application without a lot of number crunching and guesswork, choose the style of cam you want (mechanical flat-tappet, mechanical roller, hydraulic flat-tappet, or hydraulic roller) then get with the cam manufacturer of your choice. They're going to ask you a lot of questions about your car like weight, stall speed if auto, head selection, displacement, gear ratios, etc. I highly recommend letting the guys who have spent hours in the dyno room developing the lobes of their cams choose the one they think will work best for you.

stephenscamaro

Agreed!

stephenscamaro

Soo, took my old friends 2014 gt500 out for a spin today. Supercharged, the works. I'm not going to lie, that thing was FAST. And I mean FAST, he had it dyno'd at 730 rwhp. New goal now, I want to eat that thing alive and it still be just as steetable as his. I now have project goals, I really really really want to out run that thing.

Maybe centrifugal charger? A little boost? Nos? Not sure how I can obtain that kind of RMP range he has with the combination of low end torque too.

I'm really impressed with his ride and sick to my stomachs it was a M**t**g.

Camaro86IrocZ

iTrader: (1)

LS9 swap... http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Perf...FYMlgQoduowMIg

stephenscamaro

Free shipping included!

BeyondZ28_85

If you really want to get there, I would've suggested going with an LS swap. From the research I've done, those things respond to boost much better than our old sbc. Mainly because the heads are 18* with monster ports. We're talking heads that flow closer to stock big block numbers. Forget 2 vs 4 bolt main caps. LS motors have 6. Personally, I would want to do a twin turbo LS if I had to outrun the supercharged GT500. Turbo motors don't have the same heat soak issues, but do typically cost more especially with all the fabrication. Then again, I'd love to do a carbed LS454. An all aluminum V8 in one of our cars would prolly be lighter than the GT500 but honestly I don't know how much the GT500 weighs. Don't get me wrong, I love my old sbc, but I think the LS has surpassed it in making cheap reliable power.

stephenscamaro

Ok, update~

My budget won't let change what I'm already building so Im sticking with my current build.

I do have some questions though:

Edelbrock 2701? What do you guys think?

Where in the heck do I get a flywheel for this thing, it's a 1pc RMC, something the 400 never had~ the crank manufacturer says "Notes: Requires a Chevy 400 harmonic balancer and the use of a stock type counter weighted flexplate or flywheel.." Is that stock for the 400 or 350?Any thoughts/recommendations?

I purchased a standard 400 SBC balancer, it is weighted but it cannot be changed. Will this work?

I am shopping for rods and pistons. The target bob weight specified by the crank is 1855 +/- 2%. Any recommendations? How do I shop for that target weight when a lot of these online retailers don't have that info?

AND FINALLY~ Should I buy me a scale and follow the you tube videos for balancing the rods and piston weights or let the shop do it?

BeyondZ28_85

Well the LS idea was out there a little more for $h!ts and giggles than anything but getting back on track:

You can order a flywheel or flex plate for a sbc 400 from summit racing that is for the externally balanced setup. When balancing a sbc 400, you have to balance it with the damper and flywheel/flex plate attached. You said you have an abundance of time so you could save money by trying to balance the setup yourself if you already have the appropriate tools. If you aren't confident in doing it yourself or don't already have accurate scales and the appropriate tools, I think you'd be peace of mind ahead to have a shop do it. Just make sure that the pistons and head gaskets are going to bring you to around 10.0-10.5:1 compression. I'd calculate using .039" for gasket thickness if you don't already have your gaskets as this is the thickness of my preferred Fel-Pro gaskets. As for the performer intake, I'd step up to the performer rpm with your combo. I am personally a fan of weiand products, but whichever brand is your choice, I'd look for something that advertises it's power starting somewhere in the 1500-2000 rpm range and makes power to about 6500. Your heads are going to make power a little higher in the rpm band so getting an intake to match that is going to help you. Also have you picked out a cam and do you have flow numbers from .050"-.600" lift for those heads? That info would definitely help us help you. I think with your heads, the right intake, and cam as well as the rest of your combo you'll end up with a torquey motor in the vicinity of 450 hp. That should make for a really fun street/strip car.

stephenscamaro

So, Im chatting with summit and they are telling me to use the standard counter weighted flexplate for the 350. The crankshaft only needs the external weight up front. Does this sound right? It is a 1 piece rear main seal~

stephenscamaro

Here is the chat~

" Dale: Hi, my name is Dale. I will be with you in a moment.
stephen dean: Sure, thanks
Dale: I'll find out. Just a moment.
Dale: I'm sorry for the delay. I'm working with two customers at the same time.
stephen dean: NP, take your time. I just needed clarification on the Notes "Requires a Chevy 400 harmonic balancer and the use of a stock type counter weighted flexplate or flywheel."
stephen dean: If that is a stock type flex plate for a 350 or 400 SBC
Dale: Thank you for your patience.
Dale: Use the flywheel or flexplate for a 350 with a 1 piece rear main seal.
stephen dean: Thats all i needed to knnow, thanks!"

BeyondZ28_85

He's telling you the real deal. I had a moment there thinking about my sbc 400 vs a 383. Different game same crank. Kind of curious why you didn't go with a balanced rotating kit instead of piecing it together yourself. From my shopping, that typically is the cheaper route in the end without as much headache. Anyway, I ran some compression numbers for you using .025 as your deck clearance, .041 gasket thickness, 4.030 bore, 3.75 stroke, and 64 cc heads. You'll want flat top pistons with somewhere from 5-7cc deep valve reliefs. That'll put you in the sweet spot of 10.25-10.45:1 CR and give you the added benefit of extra piston to valve clearance. Aside from that, just make sure that you choose pistons with the correct wrist pin location for the rod length you choose. Fortunately, they have pistons set up for 383s to use 5.7" rods as opposed to the 5.565" 400 rods you would have to use with a regular 350 piston. You just have to make sure when you order them.

stephenscamaro

Well, The machine shop sold me some rods and forged pistons, new in the box for $200~ with bearings.

the pistons are forged 6.6 cc double reliefs.

Will my quench be sufficient with those specs?

BeyondZ28_85

They'll give you 10.28:1 with your current quench. That'll be 93 friendly and still have thump. Looks good in my book.

stephenscamaro

Here is an oddball question... The heads do not have the coolant passages drilled/ported to the intake. Front or back. Should I drill them?

BeyondZ28_85

Can you give us a part # on those heads? I've not heard of this issue before. Maybe five7kid or someone else who's been in the hotrodding game longer than I have has came across heads without the water passages you're referring to.

stephenscamaro

Update~

stephenscamaro

stephenscamaro

UPDATE!!!

How does it look?