evilstuie

Hi Guys,

My 400SBC AFR HSR 0411 OBD2 [add more acronyms here] build is finally at the keyturn stage but unfortunately....there's cranking but no glorious sound at the end.

I've tried looking for a startup guide or something, but it seems everyone's seems to start first go.

I'm using a LS1 VX Holden Commodore 0411PCM 5.7L base tune, and I've removed VATS using an AVT-852 cable, the ls1tool app, and TunerPro with obd2 XDF files for a 12225074 OS.

The tune loaded sucessfully because the fuel pump is now priming when the ignition is turn to on.

I've confirmed I have power on the ignition coil harness, leads are plugged on, fuel pressure is at least 40psi (still need to set once car is running)

I do not have the alternator connected or belts running and no radiator.
I'm waiting on some serp belts to arrive so I just want to start the motor for 10-15 seconds to confirm its running so i can organise custom plug leads and properly mount the coil packs.

Other than VATS is there anything else I need to set to have the motor run or even stumble to run?

Injectors have sat for a while, is there a test I can run on that?
Do I need to do a crank relearn(CASE) to get it to fire or is that more about the time it takes to fire or if it coughs and splutters?


Or, is there a checklist I can go through?

I assume the MAF base tune for the LS1 should be able to attempt to start the car even if its rough or with a few misfires.

Any help or suggestions would be awesome.

Thanks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If tune is close it should start up

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Do you have spark?
Do you have fuel pressure?
Do your injectors fire (noid light)?
Does the ecu receive power when CRANKING! (as in, ing switched is not on a source that gets cut when cranking)
Did you try firing by spraying ether into the throttle body

so many tests to do before initial start if there is an issue.......

peterc005

Most likely a problem getting sparks.

Pull one plug, crank it and check for a spark.

What are you doing to indicate crank position and timing?

evilstuie

To confirm so far:
PCM has power and grounds all checked
LH & RH ignition and injectors have power

OBD2 port wont connect, all wires are correct and data is on Blue pin 58 but programs wont connect

Fuel pump primes on ignition, and AVT-852 cable can read and write to PCM....

evilstuie

Will confirm coils are firing and injectors are squirting tomorrow morning, for now the bastard thing has defeated me for the night

evilstuie

Quick question to save some time:

Can the PCM be bricked/faulty if it successfully reads/writes .BINs and recognises and initialises the fuel pump?

I just want to be sure that the reason the OBD2 is not sending any codes or connecting is either the BT dongle, software or power/grounding issues.
I can connect my phone to the BT dongle, but it cant connect to the PCM

evilstuie

New info:

Changed some settings in the .ADX file for TunerPro and can acess the PCM OBD2 data, so the OBD2 issue is definitely the dongle.
Mate is heading over later with a scanner to see if there's codes on the PCM.

But more importantly I pulled a spark plug and it was bone dry.
Fuel is making it to the AFPR, but not sure if its making it to the fuel rails, so I'll go back and check the routing for the AFPR as there's a chance I've reversed the flow, then check the rail pressure, then check the injectors.

I'm also going to check for spark but have to wait for my mate to turn up as I don't have enough hands to crank and hold the plug.

Hopefully it's something simple.

Someone mentioned something about ignition power sources that cut when cranking, is that common in thirdgens, or is there a particular rail that powers the fuse panel with continuous ignition power?
The coil/injector power is on the same fuse at the moment.

evilstuie

New Data:

Fuel is in the rails, but interestingly, pressure drops after PCM primer cyle finishes, and when cranking, doesn't jump back up where it should.

My guess is that means the PCM isn't getting a signal telling it the engine is cranking...

So I take it my next step is to check the crank pos. sensor for incoming signal voltage while cranking?
How does the PCM know when the car is trying to start?

Edit:
I really hope this is not a reluctor alignment issue because I paid $1270 for my "$300 balancing" because they said I needed a different balancer and it to be milled properly for the reluctor to fit...

evilstuie

B32 B34 are grounded
12 volt going to CKP
Not sure how to measure signal as yet.

I need to know what the PCM needs to see in order to start sending fuel and spark to the motor?

LX_SS

Mine primes for about 2-3 secs or thereabouts on ignition ON, it has around 50psi in the rails and holds this pressure for quite some time. When cranking the fuel pump isn't ON. Cranking rpm is only around 80-100rpm.
Only when the engine is running is the fuel pump ON otherwise. (VY ECU)

Sounds like you still have an issue with fuel as its dropping pressure after the prime cycle which it shouldn't. How much does your fuel pressure drop by ?

Have you checked for spark yet to see if the coils are firing ?

evilstuie

Got some more data to add:

We checked the CKP sensor connection.
12v in
GND good
Signal 1.3v regardless of reluctor wheel position, we cranked using the start as well as manually.

I pulled the CKP sensor to check the wheel and it looks, at least ot me like its placement should be good enough to trigger the magnetic dealy


It was a brand new sensor from EFIconnection, do they have a fail rate that would suggest a faulty sensor?

evilstuie

Also, I tapped a 12v source to the signal wire of the CKP sensor signal wire and could hear the fuel pump engage, so to me that points to everything else working but the CKP sensor.

From that it appears PCM is working, but wont enable fuel or spark because of no crank signal...

I've ordered a cheap chinese replacement off ebay which will take about a month to get to Australia, so I guess I'll wait and see

Is there an "offline" test i can do on the crank sensor to confirm its dead, or is the 1.3volt reading proof enough?

Is there any chance EFIconnection would be nice enough to send a replacement for a faulty sensor, or am I asking for disappointment?

LX_SS

So i looked up some more things on the 411 swap.
From what i gathered on it, your base tune of a vx ls1 5.7 won't work. The firing order is different. You need to run a 2002 Express van base tune as its a vortec 350 with a 411 pcm and has the correct firing order.
More info @ : http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/12200411.html

The signal wire of the crank sensor is meant to be 0-5v not 12v.

Without knowing what exactly been done, what has been tested, its hard to tell.
You just have to go through everything.

Vats removed
Disable Alt Codes (if applicable)
Disable Post Cats o2 (if applicable)
Correct base tune file loaded ?
ECU Power whilst cranking (disconnect start trigger, turn key to start and hold in this position, check ecu power) - also include coil power.
Check spark output from coils
Check fuel system
Check engine sensors - cam, crank (main 2)

If you have spark + fuel + correct base tune loaded & all sensors work, there is no reason it shouldn't start.

evilstuie

The Vx tune will work, as it needs to have the LS1 tune to use the coil per cylinder ignition. I've repinned the harness to match the SBC firing order so that side of it is fine.

VATS is already removed, and it wouldn't prime the fuel pump if it was still enabled.
There's currently no fuel or spark being sent by the PCM as it's not receiving the crank signal.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the brand new Crank sensor is faulty, as it's putting out constant 1.3volt on a wire that should put out either 9v or 5v.

LX_SS

Ok so you've gone about it the other way.

The crank sensor should be 5v on a tooth and 0v when not on a tooth of the reluctor disc.

I did see a post where a guy went through 2 faulty crank sensors from efi connection before he got a good one. Sounds like you might be on the right track.

evilstuie

Yeah, Mike at EFI connection is looking after me I think, just waiting for an email back as to what to do next.

evilstuie

New sensor on order so we'll see how it goes

evilstuie

Finally got my answer yesterday.
The new sensor arrived and instead of installing it in the car, I used a bench test power supply to check it. Connected up the wires as per 0411 wiring instructions, and same outcome. 1.27volts on the signal wire constantly.


Explained all the process to Mike at EFI connection who came back and said the sensor doesn't use the 0411 wiring schematic, and that the vortec sensor signal and power wires are inverted. So where it was meant to have 5v output, I was sending 12v input and vice versa.


Not once in the days of reading on guides and step by step instructions that the crank sensors for lsx and vortec had different pin allocations, so that was a fun and expensive exercise.

evilstuie

Just checked with proper wiring, and signal wire is putting out 12volt with metal in front of it. Should it still be 5volt or is it meant to be 12volt?

evilstuie

Ok news...
Got the car to cough and splutter but not start. no DTCs thrown, but the CKP sensor is outputting 12volts to the signal now with the sensor wired up to the Vortec diagram, not the 0411PCM one.

From what I've heard, the car should start, so now I need to reconfirm all injectors and coils are repinned properly to use the correct firing order, and confirm the dizzy was put in correctly on the #1TDC and not by just using the timing mark which i may have ended up at #6TDC I'm told?

irocman7

Is your crank sensor connector new?

I had a problem with the connector prongs being bent and not making good contact with the sensor. Yes two wires are swapped from the ls harness (I used a truck harness), I believe it was the outer two (a and c).

Here's my writeup if it helps any.

Also are you using a double roller with the factor vortec timing cover?


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...-pcm-swap.html

evilstuie

Sorry, I forgot to come back and give the answer.
So the crank sensor was working properly, the reason it didn't want to start and idle is because the coil packs I bought 2nd hand from a wrecker weren't stock.


Someone had re-pinned the coil harnesses to account for a custom grind cam that changed the firing order.


Repinned back to stock and she started