Camaroman575

i found them on summit for 350

Shinobi'sZ

Just curious why you say running leaner would kill performance. Most of my NA C5s I always had tuned with H&C, Headers, and CAI were tuned to 12.9-13.1 AFR..with stoich at 14.7. Cars made over 400 whp easy. Or are you stating that it is so much leaner that it is resulting in engine knock and as a result retarding the timing..therefore killing performance. If it is leaner and doesn't knock (or ping) then the car is going to make more power.

Regal105

i have a tbi and i want to remove the air and the air conditioning pump, so if i changed my whole ecm out to a ecm from a 305 pickup truck with no emissions gear, wouldn't that eliminate the lean air/fuel mixture???

in theroy shouldn't the "emissionless" (a new word:O!) computer compensate for that missing information? or am i totally off my rocker??

kkingsrulee

sorry to sound dumb, but what the heck is a.i.r.? whenever i try and google it nothing about cars comes up.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

A.I.R. means Air Injection Reactor, and its the scientific name for the emissions-control system that takes in regular air thru the air pump (part of the accessories on the front of the engine) and distributes that air to either the catalytic converter, or the exhaust manifolds, thru a couple valves that are controlled by the computer. The extra air serves to turn the carbon monoxide in the exhaust into carbon dioxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_injection_reactor

bigals87z28

On my 305 TPI with a ZZ4 cam, slightly better heads, headman shorties, catco cat, no air and no EGR passed NJ inspection but my car was also retuned after all that work was done. Only thing that wasnt well below levels was NOx, which was right at standard. Ill have to look at the last time I had it inspected, see what it did...

IrocZonNos

Hey Kevin,
I eliminated the AIR. How would I route the hoses taking in consideration having a Paxton SC? Can you provide a diagram? Also do I need to flash my ecu?

wilbrrr455

1984 ecm does not monitor A.I.R system :]

Jono4820

iTrader: (1)

So, when I did the 305 to 350 swap the donor motor (92 caprice 9C1) has a.i.r. going to the passenger side manifold only and not to the cat(s). This was the factory setup on that car. The 02 sensor is in the drivers side manifold where no air is injected. I also swapped the ecm. I originally left the air hooked up to the cat and passenger manifold. Now I am installing hedman shorties with no air hookups. Should I leave the airpump and run air to the cat still? -or- Should I replace the cat with a high flow cat with out air and remove the air pump all together?

BTW I spent an hour reading all 5 pages of this topic without finding an answer. Thanks....

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Since you did an engine swap from another type of car, you need to keep the emissions parts for the new engine. That means you need to get headers with AIR tubes and hook it up. Or install AIR tubes on your Hedman pipes on the passenger side. That's the legal way.

LB9Iroc87

just a real quick question, if i were to remove the A.I.R system on my 87 LB9 IROC and have a fuel pressure regulator on it, or have my ECM reflashed then wouldnt i be fine. I live in kentucky and we dont have SMOG or nething. Just decibels and yur dun.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I dont understand your question. What do the fuel pressure regulator and the ECM have to do with removing your AIR tubes? Nothing that I know of.

The truth is you can remove your AIR pump and AIR lines with no problems to the computer. However its completely illegal to do so in the eyes of the law. If you can live with dirty air, go ahead, but the person behind you might not.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Another option is removing the air and running a better newer cat.

On my last dyno run with true duals I had the cats off and the emissions levels were actually lower than most stock L98s. odd eh.

-- Joe

85birdy

maybe this was already said, but i still have stock exhaust manifolds , could i completely take it off with the A.I.R crap, and just bolt on some shiny new headers? and not worry about anything?

thanks

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yes it was already said, you need to reread the thread. If your remove the AIR tubes you need to worry about the smog police, as its illegal to do so in all 50 states on a street car by federal law.

85birdy

I see, but i live in canada so its all good, so engine performance wise, it wont affect driveablility? thanks

artemis

Still very illegal in Canada. Not just the states.

joshwilson3

On my 89 305, I've got the air tubes, smog pump, and cat removed. Though, I still have the EGR. Would having the EGR still there cause any problems? Should I go ahead and block it off, or just leave it?

sadler

I tried doing a/c delete but i took out the fan on the left and all the screws and under the dash but the black original a/c housing STILL won't come off i yank and pull and cant see any other bolts.

Havent driven my car since i did this yesterday so can i drive the car fine with the fan on the left out? looks like a big hole, is that safe?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... the bolts are there, gotta pull the carpet up on the passenger side, inside. You can drive around w/absolutely zero problems, unless you have an exhaust leak somewhere, in which case keep the windows open until you correct everything. Do you have the delete box ready to install, and do you know how to wire it all up to maintain all four speeds of the blower fan?

-Rob

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

You'll have more problems with the smog police, because your car is illegal to drive on the street with those parts removed.

If you block off or remove the EGR, you will get an SES light for Code 32 most of the time. The EGR doesnt open at WOT, so it will not affect your power. It opens while you're cruising on the highway to cool down the combustion chambers and give you better gas mileage.

joshwilson3

It's been like that for over 5 years. I just didn't know if the EGR needed the other smog stuff to work right. But I'm guessing it doesn't matter. So, I'll leave the EGR alone. Though, I do get a code 32 sometimes when I'm on the highway.

LB9Iroc87

What i was saying in my question is with the whole running lean thing, thats all im worried about. The AIR is off my car and i dont want it to run lean, so i thought a good fix would be just to buy a fuel pressure regulator, and i know now that the AIR is transparent to the ECM so nevermind that.

kallark

iTrader: (1)

I am putting in new headers and removed the AIR, however there is one hose left , the one that goes into the engine. Should I plug it, or can I just put a filter on it and leave it be?
Thanks!

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

The one that goes into the engine? Is that from the valve cover to the intake manifold? That's the PCV and its better to leave it hooked up the way the factory had it. Breathers are for race cars that use air pumps to suck out the air in the crank case.

kallark

iTrader: (1)

Great thanks!!!

Big Cleatus

So just to get this clear with everything that was said... all I gotta do is yank the air pump, the switch valve, and plug all the tubes? My car doesn't have a serpentine it has seperate belts so I can just snip the belt and call it good. I wanna yank that bad boy out to make some space.

IROCISBELL

I WANT TO DITCH MINE WANT TO KNOW WHAT SIZE SHORT BELT I NEED AND IS THERE CLEARANCE FOR THE BELTS LOOKS LIKE IT WILL BE CLOSE I STILL HAVE AC.THE IDLER MUST GIVE YOU A LITTLE I GUESS BUT JUST LOOKING AT IT NOT SURE. ALSO WANT TO CLEAN UP THE HEATER HOSES N THAT VACUMN SWITCH HAS ANYBODY DONE THAT N PICS OR SUGGESTIONS. THANKS sorry caps

91FBIRDLS1

iTrader: (1)

so what about my '04 GTO LS1? does this still hold true if it didnt have air tubes on the stock manifolds, but the pacesetters i put on do.
does that mean I dont need the air system for emiss. or does that just mean this was a non-emiss. car?
from what Ive heard here in Colorado we only hafto have the stock emiss. equip. that came on the car in '91 wich I think would be convtr. & char. can, I'm not sure about the air sys. but, my LS1 harness doesnt have the connector for it anyway

stormy69

you are gtg with your gto as it dodnt come with a.i.r.

i dont know why "the law" keeps coming up. its only illegal to delete it if your locale/city/state requires it to be on the vehicle. federal law mandated that manufacturers meet federal emissions standards when sold new, not you or me after we buy it.

Larry 89GTA

This is a common misperception.The "Anti-tempering" provision of the Clean Air Act, Section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B), (U.S. Code, Title 42, Chapter 85, Subchapter II, Part A, Section 7522) makes it illegal for anyone to "remove or render inoperative" any emissions control device. In the original CAA, this provision only applied to businesses and service personnel, however, it was amended in 1990 to apply to "any person." Businesses may be fined not more than $25,000, and individuals may be fined not more than $2,500 for violations. This is Federal law, and has nothing to do with whether or not your state/city/county/region has an emissions inspection program. By the way, this is an "administrative" penalty, meaning the EPA Administrator can levy the fine upon his/her determination of a violation. You can only challenge it in Federal Court after the fact.

Here it is in black and white (the information on penalties was a couple of pages after this, and has been omitted here):

So, remove, bypass, or disable your cats, A.I.R., EGR, etc., at your own risk. The number of locations requiring emissions testing is only going to increase over the next several years, and more locations will be requiring visual checks, not just tailpipe sniffing. So getting away with it is only going to get harder as time goes on.

Jono4820

iTrader: (1)

We all get it........ it is against the law to remove air stuff. I would be willing to bet that States will cut back on emissions testing. Illinois where I live has closed down several emissions testing facilities due to State budget issues and only tests the last 15 years of vehicles. California has one of the biggest deficits of all the states and of many states combined. It is only a matter of time before emissions testing becomes a thing of the past everywhere.

Think of this argument the next time you or someone else (myself included) on this board drives their shade tree mechanic maintained and modified Third gen at ball blistering speeds down the expressway or other road. That, my friends is WAY more illegal and dangerous than B.S. emission changes. I have been a career Firefighter Paramedic for 10 years and this IS fact.

jimeheat

CAN I CUT OUT MY CAT. ON A STOCK 305 TBI (1988 FORMULA ) , & REPLACE WITH A STAIGHT PIPE ?- JUST GOT THE CAR HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT THAT YET ITS IN STORAGE . i LIVE IN WALWORTH COUNTY , WI - NO EMMISION TESTING , ICAN GET FREE SMALL PIECE CUSTOM PIPE @ WORK , JUST LOOKING TO BEEF UP SOUND FOR FREE ... a redundant quest., yes it's just something I recently thought of , to spend min. on car

z28maro91

so today when i was changing my spark plugs, i accidently snapped the air tubes on my driver side exhaust manifold. There basically rotted away on both sides, but i was wondering what should i do from here? Should i replace them, leave it the way it is, or just take them off because i might put on headers before summer.

dfitch

I'm about to remove my A.I.R system, it's pretty funny how it actually makes your emissions better. GM would tell you it helps burn exhaust in the cats. I'm pretty sure it works as follows:

Emissions are gauged by parts per million. They're lookin to see less that a certain amount of "noxious gasses" in proportion the the normal atmosphere. The AIR system does nothing to actually reduce the amount of "noxious gasses". It just pumps in more air to reduce the ratio.

I'm not really 100% on that, but it came from a guy who works a shop doing PA inspections.

Larry 89GTA

Um, not quite. The guy you talked to at the shop sounds like he's full of it. Here's a fairly good explanation of what goes on from Wikipedia:

There's little to be gained from removing the A.I.R. system - maybe 5 hp if you're very lucky. But there's a lot of emissions benefit to leaving it in place and functional. But hey, that's not what anyone wants to hear.

dfitch

There's a good chance you're correct, however I believe my source on the simple premise that the system does push air into the exhaust. It my not be the the only way it makes your emissions better; but if you add air form the atmosphere (unless the air is totally burned) it going to decrease the concentration of unburned hydrocarbons.

We're probably both right, maybe you to a greater degree. However, there's one you are 100% right about; this isn't exactly the most environmentally concerned board on the web. If we were environmentalists, there would be a a thread about converting third gens to electric. The fact is we're all driving 20 year old cars with engines three times the average modern size. I think the only real argument for keeping the A.I.R system that would really carry much weight around here would be keeping your car all original.

Though I'm keeping my emissions controls until I do a full exhaust work. My car still produces a distinct odor, which in culmination with the distinct Chevrolet small block sound, is a big part of the third gen experience. From a practical stand point, modern cars are just better.My Acura is just as fast, gets better gas mileage, and, of coarse, pollutes less. Third gens aren't really practical cars, what they are is one of the few American muscle cars you can build on a budget. The days of big displacement and high compression being the best way to go fast ended years ago. These cars deal in the intagble, what makes it a good car? why do we love them? I don't really know, but I wouldn't trade it for any twin turobed rice rocket, even if it can blow my doors off.

Sorry for my mostly off topic rant, but what I'm driving at is this; emissions controls started off as the enemy of power, come the mid 80's they stopped bing the power robbers they once were. While you're totally correct that there's little to be gained form removing the A.I.R, it just fits into the muscle car stigma. If we didn't all love that we'd probable be driving cars with giant wings and fart cans.

chvy

hello folks, over in G body land it's second nature to rip out the Air Injection Reaction (AIR) system. The system was designed originally for the intermediate electric carbed/O2 sensor engines before fuel injection and was used for two things. On cold start up the engine produces more emissions than after being warmed up. The AIR system is controlled by a valve which directs exhaust from the manifolds back into the engine or heads until the O2 sensors heat up and the ECM enters a closed loop. After the ECM enters closed loop, the valve is switched in the AIR system and air is directed to the catalytic converters, for the sole purpose of cooling the catalyst coated pellets inside the catalytic converter. Sadly GM kept the outdated system on their first real fuel injected engines.

Keep in mind the computers for fuel injection are always more complex than carbs, I can't say first hand how its removal would effect emissions (it will most likely fail emissions) but I do know it would not effect performance or driveability in the least. Make sure any air injection entry points are completely blocked after removing the system. Also remove/gut the cats depending on your type of inspection, visual, etc

Your engine will most likely throw an SES light as every time the engine is starting, the O2 sensors will be cold without the AIR system and a lean condition is detected. It is possible the ECM may compensate for this condition, but I have NO experience with the ECM's in these cars and can't give any advice on that topic. In my opinion, if the engine is throwing a code because of the AIR system being taken out, chances are it's not hurting anything after the O2 sensors have warmed up a few minutes or especially at WOT. A note here, because the computer may not correct for this condition, hitting WOT without the O2 sensors warming up (w/out closed loop) could result in engine damage over time...but this should be a no-brainer, dont step on it until the engine has warmed up. If a code is being thrown it will most likely always be there because it will trip every time the engine is cold started.

edit - A similar SES code can be thrown if the valve controlling the AIR system switch goes out. Performance wise, there is belt driven hp loss to be gained, as well as weight, but the most gain you will see is from a freer flowing exhaust. If you have no plans on either removing or gutting the cat, there is absolutely no point in taking the AIR system off as that is the choke point.

RU1NER

iTrader: (1)

Quick question, I went to Napa and I asked for 968k6 but got 966k6 would the tensioner compensate for this? I'm removing it tomorow at a friends house and I don't want to be stuck there. Thanks

wakeboardr42393

iTrader: (1)

i took the air stuiff off my car also. i would liek to keep it off. the guy who owned the car before me swapped the 305 with a newer 350 but still used tpi. he said he "had it tuned perfectly how it is." i just put headers on the car, and liek i said took apart the air thing without wanting to put it back on unless i have to. is there anyway i an re tune the thing? i have no idea about any of that kidn of computer tunign stuff yet... sorry i know thatll probably complicate things.

wakeboardr42393

iTrader: (1)

if the guy a few above me is right, i should be fine, thanks and sorry for it

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

So what is the purpose of taking all the smog stuff off? One thing for sure is that you will get a very rich smell if you take it off. Ok! You will gain 2hp.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

If your car is tuned correctly you should be able to take everything but the converter off with _no_ difference in smell, AAMOF, if you don't have a visual inspection if it's tuned right it will still _easily_ pass emissions (an actual exhaust sniffer, and I'm not sure why they would do anything but unless emissions testing is _not_ about what is actually coming out of your tailpipe, but that's a whole different issue).

The reason to get rid of the AIR stuff is that it makes for tons more room in the engine compartment, especially removing the lines going into the manifold. With them installed I have rather large hands/arms and I can barely change the spark plugs and that's with a weird combination of tools to get to them that I've figured out over the years, without them I can literally do the job in 1/4-1/5 the time with just a spark plug socket, ratchet, extension and another socket (that fits the back of the spark plug socket to use as a very short extension).

Removing the cat there still won't be much of a difference in smell on a well tuned car (I'd bet that less than 5 percent of people here would be able to tell by smell), but the car does sound better, and on most older 3rd gen setups there is a lot more than 2hp to gain, though I would argue that most of that gain could be gotten by swapping in a modern, larger high flow cat(s) (as in a dual cat setup like some of the later 3rd gens and 4th gens had) and still keeping low emissions, though in a lot of cases that wouldn't technically be legal (again, if the reason for emissions testing was making sure actual emissions were at a reasonable level...)

kd5icr

iTrader: (2)

Yes you can unhook the air pump. You can also buy 50 state leagle headers from pacesetter.Pacesetter Header is legal for street use in all 50 states, including California. If a technician questions the legality of this item during a vehicle inspection or smog check, simply provide them with the CARB Exemption Number,which is D-439-6.
And they dont have the air pump tubes on the header but is still hooked to the cat and still has the O2 hookup on the header. Just keep the O2 hooked up.
It is that easy

Zerocyde

That was the hardest part of my emissions removal. It's bolted on in two places, and had I owned my angled wrenches when I did mine, they wouldn't have been the problem they were.

But after I got the two bolts off then the REAL hard part started. Fully unbolted it still took a few hours and a shitload of bending and maneuvering and forcing to get that damned tube out from behind the block. Ended up using a hammer and a crowbar to force it down and out next to where the cat goes stock.

joshwilson3

How do you remove that air pipe at the back of the engine? That's the only part of the air system left on mine. When I had the shop remove all the air stuff, they said they couldn't remove that pipe, so they just cut it off where they could.

Zerocyde

Read the post directly above yours.

joshwilson3

Ah, ok. I saw the thread bumped and I posted before reading the new posts as this thread is old as hell.

I went out and messed with it, and I think that air tube is gonna stay in place. I have a bendable ratchet, but could barely get the socket on that bolt, but didn't really have enough room to get the socket all the way on. And no way getting a straight wrench on that bolt as the air tube is in the way.

Looks like you need something special like a long wrench that has been bent just right. Not really worth it. Plus, if you do get that bolt off, you have to worry about getting it tightened down all the way since there is a ground wire going to that bolt.

Sure would be easier if you could get to it from the bottom.

vendetta

if you didnt have the A/c( just a delete pulley) figure thered be belt issues?

done some searching but i cant find what belt id need to run it without the smog pump. Just dont have 90+ bucks for the smog delete pump

Zerocyde

With just the smog pump removed? It's like an inch shorter than stock. Or a half inch. Mine ran with the stock belt, though the tensioner went all the way down.

Just go get a 1 inch smaller belt from the parts store, if its too small drive back and get another. It should run with the stock, so you can still drive the car.