Can i run my engine w/o A.I.R. system?
12-04-2003, 09:01 PM
#1
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Car: Only a daily driver, but comin home
Engine: I have one that runs ;)
Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast
Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much
Can i run my engine w/o A.I.R. system?
i took the AIR stuff off my car and what to know if i can run the car without AIR or will it run funny? or can i bypass the stuff and not worry about it(i did a search and didnt get the exact answer i wanted)
12-04-2003, 11:32 PM
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes.
12-05-2003, 06:33 PM
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Car: Only a daily driver, but comin home
Engine: I have one that runs ;)
Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast
Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much
thanks five7 that is the exact answer i was looking for, all the other answers from old posts are complicated and them 2 or 3 guys end up fighting over something
12-05-2003, 07:54 PM
#5
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Originally posted by five7kid
The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes.
The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes.
12-05-2003, 08:04 PM
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: L98
Transmission: T-56
just one more vote so you can make a confident decision. my car doesnt have the A.I.R. system anymore and passed emissions in Jersey with flying colors. i ended up failing for a faulty third brake light
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12-05-2003, 09:25 PM
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Car: Only a daily driver, but comin home
Engine: I have one that runs ;)
Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast
Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much
thats cool, yeah i plan on getting it really clean runnning and my state only does visuals if you fail 3 times, i know my buddy is going thru the same prob with his 90 RS but he has all the AIR stuff and cant pass
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12-05-2003, 10:37 PM
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Shall I put my 15-year-old on and have him point out all the logical fallacies of the peceding statements?
Functioning A.I.R. helps clean up the exhaust. Period. Whether it is needed in order for the exhaust to be "clean enough", or whether it is sufficient to make the exhaust "clean enough" doesn't prove anything.
You'll save more weight by cleaning all the trash out of your trunk. Or putting 2 fewer gallons in the tank.
Can't argue that it makes changing plugs harder. Don't do that very often, though, typically.
Functioning A.I.R. helps clean up the exhaust. Period. Whether it is needed in order for the exhaust to be "clean enough", or whether it is sufficient to make the exhaust "clean enough" doesn't prove anything.
You'll save more weight by cleaning all the trash out of your trunk. Or putting 2 fewer gallons in the tank.
Can't argue that it makes changing plugs harder. Don't do that very often, though, typically.
12-08-2003, 05:22 PM
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Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by Sunny RS
how about Tbi does it rely on air?
how about Tbi does it rely on air?
12-10-2003, 02:11 PM
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Car: 1987 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: Auto
NJITIROC i see ur in NJ so am i and im thinking about taking the air system out but if i take that out can i still have a cat or no and do u have a cat on ur car?
Last edited by 87camaro kid; 12-11-2003 at 01:07 PM.
12-11-2003, 12:19 PM
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Car: 87 plane jane with gfx
Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps
Transmission: super t-10 or t-5
Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles
i'm from jersey to and my TPI doesnt have the air system hooked up and it runs fine and my buddys tBI didnt have it hooked up either so it's all good
12-11-2003, 01:38 PM
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z
Engine: L98
Transmission: T-56
Originally posted by 87camaro kid
what about running a converter with it?
what about running a converter with it?
12-11-2003, 01:41 PM
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Car: 1987 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: Auto
and it runs fine with out the air? i plane on putting a cut out right before the cat so i guess i might as well keep it plus im having headers put in also
12-15-2003, 02:05 PM
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Car: 87 plane jane with gfx
Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps
Transmission: super t-10 or t-5
Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles
i bought an aftermaket cat after i put the headers and my cat back system on and i just have one thing to tell you if you are gonna kept your cat get a high flow name brand one cause if not you might end up like me i blew the inside of 2 of them into piece and then just said screw it and hollowed it out
12-15-2003, 03:19 PM
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Car: 1987 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: Auto
im not ganna even bother with a cat ill wait till inspection and throw one on ill probably jsut end up having an exhaust shop cut out a peace of pip long enough to fit were the cat would go
12-15-2003, 09:18 PM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes.
You can modify this setting in the prom, or you can reconnect your air..
If anyone would like to chime in and tell me i'm wrong, I'll be glad to post the section of code from the bin where this happens.
-- Joe
12-16-2003, 10:55 AM
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Car: 87 plane jane with gfx
Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps
Transmission: super t-10 or t-5
Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles
wouldnt that make the car run leaner equal out the fact that they run rich from the factory and make the car run semi close to were it should be, because i have been told they run quite rich from the factory
12-16-2003, 11:08 AM
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Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by 87camaroz28310
wouldnt that make the car run leaner equal out the fact that they run rich from the factory and make the car run semi close to were it should be, because i have been told they run quite rich from the factory
wouldnt that make the car run leaner equal out the fact that they run rich from the factory and make the car run semi close to were it should be, because i have been told they run quite rich from the factory
12-16-2003, 11:12 AM
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Originally posted by anesthes
Wrong.. The TPI system accounts for the air injection by adding 100mv to the o2 readings. So when you remove the air injection, but the computer still thinks its there you run 100mv LEANER. Obviously this kills performance.
You can modify this setting in the prom, or you can reconnect your air.
Wrong.. The TPI system accounts for the air injection by adding 100mv to the o2 readings. So when you remove the air injection, but the computer still thinks its there you run 100mv LEANER. Obviously this kills performance.
You can modify this setting in the prom, or you can reconnect your air.
I don't know for certain, but my guess would be the 100mV is added to compensate for line loss.
12-16-2003, 11:17 AM
#23
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Interesting, since the A.I.R. is routed to the cat, which is downstream of the O2 sensor, in closed loop.
I don't know for certain, but my guess would be the 100mV is
added to compensate for line loss.
I don't know for certain, but my guess would be the 100mV is
added to compensate for line loss.
I used to think the same thing about divert to cat only in closed loop.
Air is routed to the cat, the manifolds, and to the atmosphere. I was going over the code in teh $8D and it flips the solenoids and diverts it different places all over. There is no way of telling
when its doing what while driving - the fact is, removing the air will get a false 02 reading and cause less fuel to be dumped, which will cause a lean condition at certain points.
-- Joe
12-17-2003, 07:25 AM
#24
Not to argue, but just curious since this topic appears frequently. What addresses are those O² offsets? I'm using $32 (and B) and haven't encountered that. I've got a lot of other PROM masks but haven't bothered to hack them all out. You could save me a lot of time.
12-17-2003, 12:07 PM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Not to argue, but just curious since this topic appears frequently. What addresses are those O² offsets? I'm using $32 (and B) and haven't encountered that. I've got a lot of other PROM masks but haven't bothered to hack them all out. You could save me a lot of time.
Tim outlined it here.. I've researched, and he's right.
-- Joe
12-17-2003, 01:19 PM
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
First set of $32 AIR mangement constants ...
Code:
*************************************************** * >>> Air Injection Managment Tables & Param's <<< * *************************************************** LC2FF: FCB 00 ; Max Air to ports if in Pwr Enrich ; If In WOT >= then divert Air, (Sec) ; LC300: FCB 10 ; Divert if If RPM Cont > ____ > 10 SEC ; Cal = Arg * 10, (1 Sec) ; LC301: FCB 170 ; If Filtered o2 > 0.752 vdc for ___ ; Then divert ; Cal = Arg * 226 LC302: FCB 56 ; If Filtered o2 0.247 vdc & in closed loop ; > Then divert ; Cal = Arg * 226 ; LC303: FDB 200 ; 20 sec Rich or Lean o2 Divert timer ; Cal = Arg * 10 ; LC305: FCB 160 ; Divert if cont > 4000 RPM & time > ; LC306: FCB 10 ; Enable air to conv If > 1 SEC since ; last neg delta LV8 > is < ; LC307: FCB 25 ; If LV8 < 25 then Divert LC308: FCB 100 ; If LV8 > 100 & MPH > Divert Air LC309: FCB 60 ; If > 60 MPH & LV8 > then divert ; LC30A: FCB 64 ; Enable air to conv if in open lp ; & 100 Msec Drop in LV8 < 64 ; LC30B: FCB 73 ; If Cool < 14c, (58.5f) then divert ; Cal = (Arg + 40) * 256/192 LC30C: FCB 254 ; If in Open Lp => 25.4 Sec after ; closed loop then Divert ; Cal = Arg * 10 ***************************************************
12-17-2003, 01:20 PM
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Second set (102mV difference for BUA / $32)
Code:
LC562: FCB 23 ; Diff Value to Make up Rich/Lean Window ; When Air div, CALIB = Arg * 226, (.102 VDC)
12-17-2003, 01:22 PM
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Section that subtracts off LC562...
Code:
;------------------------------------------- ; LK UP Fast o2 R/L Treshold vs Air Flow ; ;------------------------------------------- LDAA #128 ;Lk Up Var LDB3E: STAA L00D2 ; Ld Val Limited for Lk Up LDX #$C579 ; Tbl Addr, JSR LF2C6 ; 2d Lk Up, (No Offset) SUBA L00D1 ; Lean Offset, (if Cool) BRSET L003E,$02,LDB4F ; SUBA LC562 ; LDB4F: PSHA ;
12-17-2003, 01:23 PM
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Second and third section that subtracts off LC562
Code:
;-------------------------------------------------- ; LK UP Upper 0 error for Slow 02 Vs Air flow ; ; Table value = Volts * 226 ;--------------------------------------------------- LDC05: LDAA L00D2 ; Ld Val Limited for Clsd Lp L.U.'s LDX #$C567 ; Tbl Addr JSR LF2C6 ; 2d Lk Up, (No Offset) SUBA L00D1 ; Lean Offset, (if Cool) BRSET L003E,$02,LDC16 ; BR IF b1 ; ... else SUBA LC562 ; Diff Value to Make up Rich/Lean Window ; When Air div LDC16: CMPA L0071 ; BCS LDC38 ; ; ... else ;-------------------------------------------------- ; LK UP Lower o2 error for Slow 02 Vs Air flow ; ; Table value = Volts * 226 ;-------------------------------------------------- LDAA L00D2 ; Ld Val Limited for Clsd Lp LK Up LDX #$C570 ; Tbl Addr, JSR LF2C6 ; 2d Lk Up, (No Offset) SUBA L00D1 ; Lean Offset, (if Cool) BRSET L003E,$02,LDC2B ; BR IF b1 ; ... else SUBA LC562 ; Diff Value to Make up Rich/Lean Window ; When Air div LDC2B: SUBA L0071 ; BHI LDC32 ; ; ... else CLRA ; BRA LDC69 ;
12-18-2003, 09:17 AM
#30
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Can we make this a sticky? I see this question 3-4 times a day in here. We have a solid answer for everyone.
-- Joe
-- Joe
12-19-2003, 11:45 AM
#32
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Car: '91 Formula
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350 built
Axle/Gears: 3.73
I just started my car and ran it for little while last night after header installation. I left the AIR stuff of mainly just for engine access and the fact that it looks more like an engine (as I rememeber muscle car engines). I didn't get any error codes but I an concerned after reading this thread.
I have chip burning stuff and have burned a simple chip but don't know enought yet to really get into it. Traxions posts here are pretty much Chinese to me still. I use the car as a weekend driver, pretty much just to car shows or to the strip. In other words, Im looking for performance as opposed to gas mielage or highway driveability. Should I put the air back on, or learn how to program around it?
I have chip burning stuff and have burned a simple chip but don't know enought yet to really get into it. Traxions posts here are pretty much Chinese to me still. I use the car as a weekend driver, pretty much just to car shows or to the strip. In other words, Im looking for performance as opposed to gas mielage or highway driveability. Should I put the air back on, or learn how to program around it?
12-21-2003, 02:25 AM
#33
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i PULLED THE SMOG
I pulled the smog unit off my 87 Z-28 I had and it ran like 5*F hotter but that was all i noticed. Little bit of a power gain.
it was an 87 Z-28 335TPI stroker. it would beat the 305's and the 350's most of the time. but a modde d 350 could take it tho .
Built 305's would hange with it uless they did a gear swap then they would walk me.
but I no longer have that car.
well i am new hope to meet you guy's and Have F-body fun.
it was an 87 Z-28 335TPI stroker. it would beat the 305's and the 350's most of the time. but a modde d 350 could take it tho .
Built 305's would hange with it uless they did a gear swap then they would walk me.
but I no longer have that car.
well i am new hope to meet you guy's and Have F-body fun.
12-21-2003, 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by anesthes
Can we make this a sticky? I see this question 3-4 times a day in here. We have a solid answer for everyone.
-- Joe
Can we make this a sticky? I see this question 3-4 times a day in here. We have a solid answer for everyone.
-- Joe
Anyone else agree?
12-21-2003, 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by chrissy
I'll definitely second that. What would be better though would be for someone to collate all the information on thirdgen smog systems, EVAP's, A.I.R. etc, and all the information regarding pro's and con's of removal, implications on the PROM etc and make that a locked sticky.
Anyone else agree?
I'll definitely second that. What would be better though would be for someone to collate all the information on thirdgen smog systems, EVAP's, A.I.R. etc, and all the information regarding pro's and con's of removal, implications on the PROM etc and make that a locked sticky.
Anyone else agree?
:rockon: :
12-24-2003, 08:44 AM
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Car: '91 Formula
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350 built
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Well it sure makes the engine compartment look better and gives easer access. Im going to do whatever I have to to leave the stuff off. Here is a picture after header installation.
12-25-2003, 05:18 PM
#38
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Car: 98 Trans Am 85 Trans Am
Engine: LS1 Lg4
Transmission: 4L60E 700r4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 2.73
Ok if it pulls so much fuel than why was my car pig rich bone stock except for the replacement injector which are the correct 19# units and the AIR removed? Oh and by pig rich I mean like 10 to 1 air fuel when it was on the dyno.
12-25-2003, 08:05 PM
#39
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Ok if it pulls so much fuel than why was my car pig rich bone stock except for the replacement injector which are the correct 19# units and the AIR removed? Oh and by pig rich I mean like 10 to 1 air ful when it was on the dyno.
My car toggles 14:1-15:1 throughout the entire RPM range (other than PE) before the cat, and after the cat hc's are almost non-existant. Your O2 sensor is prolly feeding back minimal voltage, and your blms are prolly aroung 160!
-- Joe
12-27-2003, 04:48 AM
#40
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Car: Check The Sig
Ok there is something in your computer that has something with teh AIR and that has been known, but if it will throw a code or not is still debatable and really depending on how in-tune your engine is, you wouldnt need to touch the AIR info in the PROM really? I mean, yes Tim you posted up all this stuff, but what about the hundreds of people that have ripped off the AIR stuff and havent gotten a code? Ive still yet to see someone come in here saying they got a code from the AIR tubes being removed. Maybe if there car is not intune, or the injectors are not up to spec, maybe but a good tuned TPI would probably throw nothing out there and think nohting is wrong. If you want to get really **** about it, I guess you could change it in the prom to just turn it off, but if Its not gunna cause a problem, they why bother? If you run a little lean, compensate by adjusting the fuel pressure. But last time I looked at my GM diagnostic book, there was no code that was related to lack of AIR. Im still removing mine and Ill probably wont touch anything related to PROM till later if I run into any problems.
12-27-2003, 04:56 AM
#41
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if it ain't throwing a code and if it's running fine leave it be.........
I yanked smog bs off of all of my F-Body's not a problem yet......
............... :rockon: THIRDGEN'S UNITE:rockon:............................
I yanked smog bs off of all of my F-Body's not a problem yet......
............... :rockon: THIRDGEN'S UNITE:rockon:............................
Last edited by 91 GTA Ramair2; 12-27-2003 at 04:58 AM.
12-27-2003, 07:53 AM
#42
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Originally posted by biff85ta
Ok if it pulls so much fuel than why was my car pig rich bone stock except for the replacement injector which are the correct 19# units and the AIR removed? Oh and by pig rich I mean like 10 to 1 air fuel when it was on the dyno.
Ok if it pulls so much fuel than why was my car pig rich bone stock except for the replacement injector which are the correct 19# units and the AIR removed? Oh and by pig rich I mean like 10 to 1 air fuel when it was on the dyno.
2) I wouldn't even call it 'pulling fuel'. The ECM just thinks there is suppose to be more oxygen in the exhaust so it uses less fuel.
3) AIR is not commanded at WOT so you wouldn't notice it on the dyno.
4) Even if it was commanded (WHICH IT IS NOT!) then you'd still see 10:1 because the stock ECM is pig rich at WOT and the AIR is only a small change.
Tim
Last edited by TRAXION; 12-27-2003 at 07:58 AM.
12-27-2003, 07:57 AM
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
I posted this in another AIR post recently and am posting it again here.
---------------------------------------
Just to shed a little more light ...
1) You will NOT run lean at WOT.
2) There are some part throttle light load areas where you can run slightly lean.
3) Tons of people (including me) have run without the AIR system and did not make any ECM/PROM adjustments and everything ran fine. FWIW, this was back when I was sporting the stock cam/heads and just an upgraded LTR setup. Car ran absolutely fine with no AIR and no ECM adjustments.
4) I just brought this information to light a little while ago. People have been running with no AIR and no ECM adjustments for over a decade now (that's a long time!). Very Very few people have ever complained about removing AIR.
I just want to put things in perspective here. If you remove the AIR system there is a very good chance that you won't notice anything. You might ... but, fact is, you probably won't. Too many people have already done it. I am not saying that it's 100% OK to remove the AIR system. The correct way would be to disable it in the EPROM. However, you don't need to do it. You should do it ... but, it's not a terrible thing if you don't. Heck - I still haven't disabled it in mine yet.
Tim
---------------------------------------
Just to shed a little more light ...
1) You will NOT run lean at WOT.
2) There are some part throttle light load areas where you can run slightly lean.
3) Tons of people (including me) have run without the AIR system and did not make any ECM/PROM adjustments and everything ran fine. FWIW, this was back when I was sporting the stock cam/heads and just an upgraded LTR setup. Car ran absolutely fine with no AIR and no ECM adjustments.
4) I just brought this information to light a little while ago. People have been running with no AIR and no ECM adjustments for over a decade now (that's a long time!). Very Very few people have ever complained about removing AIR.
I just want to put things in perspective here. If you remove the AIR system there is a very good chance that you won't notice anything. You might ... but, fact is, you probably won't. Too many people have already done it. I am not saying that it's 100% OK to remove the AIR system. The correct way would be to disable it in the EPROM. However, you don't need to do it. You should do it ... but, it's not a terrible thing if you don't. Heck - I still haven't disabled it in mine yet.
Tim
12-27-2003, 09:21 AM
#45
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Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Originally posted by 91 GTA Ramair2
Hell yes that's i been trying to say it's just fine fine fine.......
Nobody listens
Hell yes that's i been trying to say it's just fine fine fine.......
Nobody listens
Tim
12-27-2003, 09:45 AM
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Yes You Can..........
Most Just pinch it off with a vice grip.
Other's just plain yank the cat off.
But if you get Tested i would just pinck it off.
we don;'t get tested here so most just yank the cat off other hollow them out.
Most Just pinch it off with a vice grip.
Other's just plain yank the cat off.
But if you get Tested i would just pinck it off.
we don;'t get tested here so most just yank the cat off other hollow them out.
12-27-2003, 10:33 AM
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Car: 1991 Z-28
Engine: TPI
Transmission: 5-speed Rear:3.73
ok sounds good...one more question..I still have the smog(air)
pump on my engine but can I take the air tube off that goes to the converter and plug the hose up top that goes to the pump till I delete the pump later ?? kinda confusing I know
pump on my engine but can I take the air tube off that goes to the converter and plug the hose up top that goes to the pump till I delete the pump later ?? kinda confusing I know
12-27-2003, 10:40 AM
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Car: 1991 Z-28
Engine: TPI
Transmission: 5-speed Rear:3.73
good I asked that question months ago but never really got an answer...its just been in the way! also off topic here but..
my computer tells me to replace my EGR valve,is there a way to unplug it or something so I dont have to keep seeing that engine light everytime it warms up to temp??
my computer tells me to replace my EGR valve,is there a way to unplug it or something so I dont have to keep seeing that engine light everytime it warms up to temp??
